Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

I missed 1 doomspike hit on a clockwork bug the other day on T4 with 465 acc.

I have no proof but from experience it seems aoe moves like Doom Spike / Ring of Thorns / Dragonfire Dive have generally higher acc requirements. Though i've never seen dragonfire dive miss, maybe because its magical damage it follows a diff acc req.?

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It's possible that it works like enemy AE specials. Iirc, you can parry/block an enemy's AE special move from any direction; if player AE specials are treated the same way, it may count as attacking an enemy from the front.

How does holy lance weigh against GB zenith? Has anyone tested it?

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Titan has a variety of spellcast animations where he is facing the group. In addition, gaols and egis are often attacked from the front.

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I think you still got the point, don't you? Not that it will never happen that you may be facing your target for 2-3 GCD here and there during a fight (Titan is a bit special for that, turning around pretty often, Garuda and Ifrit does turn around from time to time too even if it's less frequently) but you won't gear yourself to reach the "hit from face" accuracy. Giving a hit from face is very situational. If it's not you're prolly doing something wrong as you shouldn't be facing the target for an extended time on most fights and anyway most bosses will punish you hardly for trying that with a cleave that will reminds you that dps aren't welcome where the tank stands.
And the main idea being that CT/Primals have much lower ACC requirment than T1-5 as you definitly don't need a 450+ ACC to hit in CT.

For our AoEs it's not really that the ACC's cap is higher but more that you have a high chance that at least one of the mob isn't showing you its back/flank but its head instead. Unless the tank(s) managed to turn them all in the same direction on you placed yourself behind the whole pack.

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Originally Posted by snowybell

How does holy lance weigh against GB zenith? Has anyone tested it?

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For no-acc needed content (CT/Primals) Holy Lance is a bit above GB Zenith. Total value of the 3 highest weapons should be:
GB Zenith : 426.232
Holy Lance : 427.072
Allangan Spear : 446.084
As you can see it's not a big upgrade, but still Holy lance is slighly better (you should gain something like 0.3-0.4 dps increase). For places where ACC does count (T1-5) you will definitly take the GB Zenith.

One thing to note about AOE. . .when an enemy does an AOE, it always treats you as if you're facing it. That is, you can parry AOE attacks originating behind you even though you can't parry normal attacks that way. It might be worth looking into whether this happens in reverse, as well.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

A spider could of been facing you, hence the miss

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I was on the flank. I know because he was standing right in front of me.

I know this is a little off topic but, does Foe's Requiem stack? So in a 2 bard group would battle voicing foe's requiem provide 40% elemental + damage for BLM/SMNs?

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Originally Posted by Migosha

I think you still got the point, don't you?

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I know, but you specifically mentioned "Not sure if with 0 ACC on your equipment you would be able to get a miss on those places."

Your condition was 'getting a miss at all'. So I just mentioned that at 341 acc, you'll probably manage to miss an EX Primal at some point.

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

I know this is a little off topic but, does Foe's Requiem stack? So in a 2 bard group would battle voicing foe's requiem provide 40% elemental + damage for BLM/SMNs?

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Don't think so. Does Mage's Ballad Stack?

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

I know this is a little off topic but, does Foe's Requiem stack? So in a 2 bard group would battle voicing foe's requiem provide 40% elemental + damage for BLM/SMNs?

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Don't know with 100% certainty, but I'd say probably not. Mage's Ballad doesn't stack, other debuffs from the same classes usually don't stack. (one exception I can think of is Virus)

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Don't think so. Does Mage's Ballad Stack?

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heh, not a bard so dunno T_T

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Don't know with 100% certainty, but I'd say probably not. Mage's Ballad doesn't stack, other debuffs from the same classes usually don't stack. (one exception I can think of is Virus)

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Ahh I see, the only thing I know is from the two bards in my group who seem to think Mage's Ballad stacks. However, I've never researched it or tested it so I was just going by their word. D:

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

Ahh I see, the only thing I know is from the two bards in my group who seem to think Mage's Ballad stacks. However, I've never researched it or tested it so I was just going by their word. D:

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The 2nd mages will help replenish the first bard's MP, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't stack on the whole group.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

The 2nd mages will help replenish the first bard's MP, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't stack on the whole group.

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Ahh I was hoping to use a non battlevoiced mages ballad at the same time (if it stacked), so that non bards got 2x the potency while bards got 1x the potency and somehow kept their MP enough to go into a battle voiced foe's requiem for a burning phase in T4 ^^.

But I guess that wont work that way heh :(

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

The 2nd mages will help replenish the first bard's MP, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't stack on the whole group.

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I don't even think it does that much. At least, I never notice a difference if another BRD and I play at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I don't even think it does that much. At least, I never notice a difference if another BRD and I play at the same time.

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Haha.. Way to muddy the waters :D

I remember very vividly one bard asking another to play Mages to replenish his MP while he played Mages, if it worked or not I can't tell you at this time.. If no conclusion is reached I'll ask our top FC bard tonight lol

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Haha.. Way to muddy the waters :D

I remember very vividly one bard asking another to play Mages to replenish his MP while he played Mages, if it worked or not I can't tell you at this time.. If no conclusion is reached I'll ask our top FC bard tonight lol

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We used to do this during the enrage method of ADS, T2. From what I remember, the bard playing whichever other songs mana still went down, it just went down slower. I am guessing this is because the MP/s rate of playing a song is greater then the MP/s gain from Mage's balad. Never tested to find out the hard numbers tho!

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

I know, but you specifically mentioned "Not sure if with 0 ACC on your equipment you would be able to get a miss on those places."
Your condition was 'getting a miss at all'. So I just mentioned that at 341 acc, you'll probably manage to miss an EX Primal at some point.

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I'd really like to know if Primals can be missed with 0 acc on gear, I somewhat hope so as they are "Extrem versions" and are supposed to ask for some gear/stats at least. Hard to do the test as I'm at the opposite side of the field: totally over capped in ACC. By getting Titan's Earrings yesterday I managed to go down to 510 ACC ... yippie ..! I could go naked to have no accuracy, but I would die from the unavoidable damages before having a relevant testing, not to mention that testing from hiting from face without equipment on me means death at first cleave as even with gear i fall to 10-20% hp if it happens (Titan's cleave and MB, Garuda's cleaves and Ifrit's Firebreaths).
It's not like it has a big interest to know the Primals' ACC requirment, but still I'm curious.

They're literally level 50 mobs.

It's like hitting the training dummy. You only need a tiny bit of accuracy if you're hitting from the front. If you can possible get a set with 341 ACC as a dps go for it.

Yea, I'm down to something like 390 or so and I don't recall noticing any misses. Didn't really ask my friend to check the parses in detail.

Guys, we can only use 15 lines max in macro? I wanted to input buffs

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Originally Posted by VaShawn

Guys, we can only use 15 lines max in macro? I wanted to input buffs

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Yeah you gotta break it up until multiple macros unfortunately....

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

Yeah you gotta break it up until multiple macros unfortunately....

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Bummer...but thanks

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

We used to do this during the enrage method of ADS, T2. From what I remember, the bard playing whichever other songs mana still went down, it just went down slower. I am guessing this is because the MP/s rate of playing a song is greater then the MP/s gain from Mage's balad. Never tested to find out the hard numbers tho!

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But the question was regarding 2x Ballad. The one time I tried it in enrage method I had to tell the other BRD to stop before we both went OOM, because it didn't seem to be helping us at all.

Hey guys. Long time lurker of this thread, first time poster. Quick shout-out to everyone who has worked tirelessly to make this thread what it is. You guys have been a huge help to the Dragoon community and I really appreciate your work. On to the issue:
I've been solely focusing on Titan EX lately in order to get my earrings. 4 clears so far out of probably 200 or more runs. It's going slowly but I'm experienced enough to not die from stupid things anymore. I focus entirely on my DRG when I play. I like to think with the amount of time I've put into him, I'm pretty good. I've followed this thread since launch. I was floored when, in a recent Titan EX, I asked my FC mate to "pen and paper calculate my DPS against the other members of the party" and I found out that I hit 200 DPS against the other 2 monks in the group that hit 250. I was 50 DPS lower than both monks! Don't know why or how, because over my 200+ Titan runs, I thought I had come pretty close to maximizing my potential damage. So I wish to give a rough outline of what I have been doing and see if you guys can give me pointers and constructive criticism.

I’m i90 (although what I like to call “artificially” i88) because I use a lower accuracy set when doing primals that contain the Onion Tassets and Onion Boots to maximize my DPS. You can check my lodestone for my exact gear set.
I also use the Ph - HT - ID - Dis - CT - TT - VT - FT rotation because it’s only a couple DPS lower than the long rotation and I find it easier to pick up and leave off in fights where I have to move around a lot.

Generally when Titan EX starts, I begin by using Spineshatter to close the gap and immediately go into my rotation popping Blood for Blood and Internal Release in between Ph and HT. Once I hit the TT-VT-FT portion I space out my cool downs like this:
TT - Power Surge - VT - Life Surge - FT - Jump. I tend to use that rotation in “chunks” saving those cool downs for when I can use them all in that rotation.

I know a couple things I could do would be to:

• use cool downs as soon as they’re up, but in Titan it sometimes feels wasted to pop one and then either have him phase change, throw up Gaols, put down bombs, or something else in which the cool down is wasted by standing around or dodging mechanics.
• I also know that I am wasting at least one or two Dragonforce Dives because I get too busy in the last half of the fight and forget that it’s off cool down. Lately I have been trying to use it more often.
• Lastly, the other thing I could be doing incorrectly is applying phlebotomize too often and basically wasting ticks, as that is often the first thing I throw up whenever I have had to move away from Titan. I don't know how much of a difference in DPS that would make if I were to be more careful about not wasting ticks and using that time to hit with another attack.

Even with knowing these few things I could change, I do not see how those alone would explain the 50 DPS difference I experienced.

What am I doing wrong?

Use H IDC P TTT for Titan EX. That's how much of an in pact this rotation makes over any other rotation. Pretty much, if you start your rotation from the beginning at each jump, a plume will come each time you're transitioning from Disembowl -> Chaos Thrust. That rotation honestly makes piss-work of Titan EX rotation. I know exactly what's about to come just from what ability I'm about to use.

Start with Spineshatter, straight into H IDC P TTT burst, and throw DFD at the end of your bursts. HT + BFB should still be up, maybe IR as well if you're fast enough.

When the set's of bombs come where it covers up 3/4 of the map, you can land 3 extra hits in before you have to run to your group to evade landslides. If you're using the above rotation, you should always be starting with Impulse Drive as soon as the bombs land; So second you've finished with Chaos Thrust, run back to the party.

Post-Heart, all of your cooldowns should be up straight up. So throw up the burst, once you've ended with Plebotomize, progress straight onto the adds, splitting your DPS.

I don't know if others have observed this strange pattern with this Rotation and Titan EX, but every kill I've done, it's just a repeat of this.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

I don't know if others have observed this strange pattern with this Rotation and Titan EX, but every kill I've done, it's just a repeat of this.

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I can vouch for it as well. Its REALLY weird.

Although, I hold BFB for the beginning of the Heart after the initial burst just for that extra "punch'' there (and the timing isn't that far off anyway), then use it when its back during adds (depends on total DPS, but its back up when the bombs fall at the latest).

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Originally Posted by Dervy

I don't know if others have observed this strange pattern with this Rotation and Titan EX, but every kill I've done, it's just a repeat of this.

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This is the sole reason why I've gotten soooooooo much better at Titan EX. Everything just lines up perfectly with his abilities.

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Originally Posted by Etherel90

I also use the Ph - HT - ID - Dis - CT - TT - VT - FT rotation because it’s only a couple DPS lower than the long rotation and I find it easier to pick up and leave off in fights where I have to move around a lot.

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That's fine. But use HT-PH, not PH-HT, unless the buff timing is odd and HT has like 4-5s left and you want to restart with PH so there's less HT overlap.

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I know a couple things I could do would be to:
use cool downs as soon as they’re up, but in Titan it sometimes feels wasted to pop one and then either have him phase change, throw up Gaols, put down bombs, or something else in which the cool down is wasted by standing around or dodging mechanics.

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1. Make sure you are using Leg Sweep on cooldown. Leg Sweep is a pretty significant amount of DPS over the course of the fight because the cooldown is so short.

2. You should generally be aware of when he's going to phase change and cause you to waste buffs. That just comes from practice, and you should hold the buff until the event occurs. Generally speaking you can use BFB on cooldown. Be sure to use a Bloodbath and Second Wind on the second BFB since it will generally be ready during a Tumult after the first phase.

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I also know that I am wasting at least one or two Dragonforce Dives because I get too busy in the last half of the fight and forget that it’s off cool down. Lately I have been trying to use it more often.

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This is minor and won't have a drastic effect on your total DPS.

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Lastly, the other thing I could be doing incorrectly is applying phlebotomize too often and basically wasting ticks, as that is often the first thing I throw up whenever I have had to move away from Titan. I don't know how much of a difference in DPS that would make if I were to be more careful about not wasting ticks and using that time to hit with another attack.

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Your Phlebotomize thing may or may not be impacting your numbers. It's probably not resulting in much difference.

I underlined the moving away thing. When I run Titan EX there are basically 3 points in the fight I will drop contact with Titan. (1) 3/4ths bombs before heart if Titan is completely surrounded. I get 3 more GCDs on Titan then Elusive Jump out of the bombs. If you want to be a jackass (the other DRG I run with) you can stand in a single bomb while attacking Titan if you're geared enough and just be like that. Note: you better be quick on dodging the landslide and positioning to get hit by only 1 bomb though. This method is not recommended and we laugh our asses off everytime he dies because of it. (2) Superbombs and 5-way after superbombs. I usually do the 6 o'clock superbomb, so after it is dead we sit idle for a bit. Then when Titan lands for the 5-way landslide, I usually have to step away from a moment. (3) line bombs if it's opposite Titan. This is only a ~2 second pause though. Losing like 2 GCDs or so.

Aside from those 2 moments, I'm basically attacking something the entire rest of the fight continuously, unless I'm gaoled.

If you stop attacking from a generic landslide, you are positioned incorrectly.


Couple other random comments:

1. You can prep a DE on Titan when Egis spawn. If your timing is off, you can just start an Impulse Drive on the Egi. They tend to stand still for like 2s on spawn without turning, so it's an easy ID. General approach to Egis should include: (1) IDC chain on the first, (2) PH on both egis, then whatever. If you have low skillspeed you can use Doomspike to hit them both (but don't use it too many times or you will screw your TP, especially if you have high-ish skillspeed).

2. It's optimal to start without SSD. Initiate with a walk-in HT. Just stay at a "3 oclock" or "9 oclock" position around Titan and walk in as the tank lobs/tomahawks. You can get the HT off before Titan fully rotates because of the delay (you can HT him almost in the front or back and it will count as flank because he is turning and his side is already facing you on the server-side). Minor optimization, but your SSD will get +66% damage from the BFB HT and DE.

3. If you save the SSD when it comes back up right before 3/4ths bombs, then you can use 3 GCDs on Titan, EJ out of the 3/4ths bombs, then SSD back in when the bombs+landslide detonate. I usually hold the SSD until I see the 3/4ths bomb position.

4. Make sure you don't have any GCD abilities in macros.


All that said, 200 is kind of low. You may not be attacking fast enough. The game queues your next ability if you use it with 0.5 seconds of your GCD cooling down / being available.

This is a really newbie question. But I've just never personally tested this and have grown kind of a unnatural disdain for this ability due to my ignorance/laziness.

Bloodbath, I know it heals for a % of your damage. But based on the tooltip I've always interpreted it as the % it heals is actually TAKEN AWAY from your damage.

For example, lets say you did 100 damage with ability x. When ability x is used while Bloodbath is up, you receive 25hp as heals and the damage you actually do is 100-25 = 75.

Please tell me I am wrong as it seems to be the case haha

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

This is a really newbie question. But I've just never personally tested this and have grown kind of a unnatural disdain for this ability due to my ignorance/laziness.

Bloodbath, I know it heals for a % of your damage. But based on the tooltip I've always interpreted it as the % it heals is actually TAKEN AWAY from your damage.

For example, lets say you did 100 damage with ability x. When ability x is used while Bloodbath is up, you receive 25hp as heals and the damage you actually do is 100-25 = 75.

Please tell me I am wrong as it seems to be the case haha

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I don't think it takes away from your damage. I don't use it on Drg but have it macro'd into to my Butcher's Block combo for War so it's pretty much always up. That's interesting though, it does say "Converts 25% of damage to HP", which would seem to imply it does lower damage.. Not sure lol

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

This is a really newbie question. But I've just never personally tested this and have grown kind of a unnatural disdain for this ability due to my ignorance/laziness.

Bloodbath, I know it heals for a % of your damage. But based on the tooltip I've always interpreted it as the % it heals is actually TAKEN AWAY from your damage.

For example, lets say you did 100 damage with ability x. When ability x is used while Bloodbath is up, you receive 25hp as heals and the damage you actually do is 100-25 = 75.

Please tell me I am wrong as it seems to be the case haha

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It doesn't take away, just calculates 25% of the damage you deal and heals you. Source: just went and tested it.
Would be better if they updated the tooltip to say Heal or something instead of Convert.

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Originally Posted by RxRai

Would be better if they updated the tooltip to say Heal or something instead of Convert.

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There's nothing ambiguous or misleading in this skill. It "Converts 25% of the damage dealt" (read: DEALT, as in, damage that's already been done, aka post-damage) "into HP".

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Originally Posted by dark494

There's nothing ambiguous or misleading in this skill. It "Converts 25% of the damage dealt" (read: DEALT, as in, damage that's already been done, aka post-damage) "into HP".

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That's true. It was never ambiguous to me, it's just that AugustusSB thought it may have meant something else and I wonder if they're not alone on that.
Also to 'convert' means to change to something else so it's a reasonable thought.

On a side note, I love using Bloodbath when there's AoE to be done and I need some HP. All those lovely numbers.

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Originally Posted by RxRai

It doesn't take away, just calculates 25% of the damage you deal and heals you. Source: just went and tested it.
Would be better if they updated the tooltip to say Heal or something instead of Convert.

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Ahhh, thank you very much ^^

Marry Me :o

another week without the allagan choker of striking. Looks like my hero's necklace will be here for a long time :(

Allagan Trousers Of Maiming alludes me for yet another week. Still don't have any drops from T1. I'm starting to think that Cad hates me for some reason. :(

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Originally Posted by ChaoticDarkGriever

Allagan Trousers Of Maiming alludes me for yet another week. Still don't have any drops from T1. I'm starting to think that Cad hates me for some reason. :(

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You are stabbing him with a spear in his side.

Is there a substitute for heroes necklace? Like primal or ultima?

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Originally Posted by snowybell

another week without the allagan choker of striking. Looks like my hero's necklace will be here for a long time :(

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Yup. I've never seen that item, ever :(