New hrothgar hairstyles are really bad.

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Originally Posted by Seafishie

It's been almost two weeks and I've yet to come across any Hroths with the new hairstyles. You would think there'd be more Hroths sporting the 2B hairstyles.

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Im personally using the Snow hairstyle with the tamamo band (Because ear physics!)

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Originally Posted by Rokke

What Reivaxe is saying is that the 4 heads' proportions are not standardized. The most noticeable discrepancy are the ears, Hroth ears' placement/ear size + shape vary between the 4 heads. If you plopped the heads into a 3D program and imposed them on top of each other the point where they meet the head would not line up. Thats what "uniqueness" they are talking about.

I don't have maya on this computer anymore so apologies for less technical examples

https://i.imgur.com/lBZQqbM.png

Imagine blue lines are standardized features and red are unique features

Every other race has a fixed place where its [non human feature] meets the head, be it horns or animal ears. The heads are uniform, the faces are more like face plates on nendos. If I were modeling a hairstyle for male Miqo'te, I would only need 1 male Miqote model because options 1, 2, 3 and 4 are uniform. It wouldn't matter if a user played the old man face or the Graha face, their heads + ears are standardized so hair will line up the same on their head regardless.

In comparison, Hrothgar are more unique than they are standardized. Some ears have wider bases, some sit higher on their head, etc. Its more difficult to make a one size fits all hairstyle across their 4 faces, which is the how/why we got earless Hroth hair: they went for a simple one size fits all solution...which as we've all seen, doesn't really look good.

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Thanks, I also don't have the programs needed to show this, so I've been trying to walk people through this for some time with just words with lil luck.

Hrothgar were only allowed to be made this way because YP told the team to not worry about making them compatible with hats and sharing hair (Again, something I hope they learned not to do with female Hrothgar). It gives them more freedom to make the faces look very different and very animal like, but it makes backtracking pretty damn hard with mixed results, as we can see. They don't put in the amount of time and effort custom making hair for any other race that they would have to put into making Hrothgar hair the way people expected/ wanted, so forcing a 1-size-fits-all solution was the most logical and cost-effective way to address these concerns. That's why YP points out that if they do make Hrothgar only hair, they would be far fewer and take far longer.

TBH, we're already seemingly missing our new X.1 hair for normal races because of them working on the hairs that came out for Viera and Hrothgar this patch, who knows if the amount of hair overall would decrease because of w/e attempt to make a new Hrothgar unique hair.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

The most noticeable discrepancy are the ears, Hroth ears' placement/ear size + shape vary between the 4 heads. If you plopped the heads into a 3D program and imposed them on top of each other the point where they meet the head would not line up. Thats what "uniqueness" they are talking about.

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Rokke -

Thank you for a lovely explanation here of what's been going on. I've been asking for someone to help me put together a video for YouTube to kind of explain what's going on, and you hit on a lot of points I've been trying to. (If you want to work with me on putting together said video, please contact me on Twitter @kelevvidui because am dumb and can't video good).

I don't want to sound like I'm defending Square - I'm not. Nor that I'm saying the hairdos don't look awful - they do. Or that YoshiP has done a good job of communicating why working with our race is hard - he hasn't. Nor that there's been any QC, that he has played any Hrothgar, that their "research" has gone anywhere, nor that there's any transparency, etc.

But the problem here isn't "spaghetti code." It's something else that in programming is called a "kludge" - it's German for 'clever' - and it's part of the reason things like our ears don't move.

Characters as we look to each other, are actually balls of data, bones and textures and vertices, and the clients render them as fast as they can, and as a result we look like we do. So, in most races, the ears have their own bones, which is how you get Miqo'te ear wiggles, etc. Hrothgar don't. The reason for that is our jaws, which have those "ear bones" int them & give us our squared off faces and whiskers and such. YoshiP is correct - we are unique, and the problem's complex.

And, also, in addition to, YoshiP is doing an INCREDIBLY poor job of explaining why this sucks to work with. And some of that is probably language barrier, and some of it is that he has to talk simultaneously with people who aren't programmers and people who are, and probably that he knows he did something AWFUL TO A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO DESERVED BETTER, which is why I believe he doesn't look at the camera and you can see Toshio Murouchi laughing.

I don't believe that he's laughing at us. He looks nervous. Yoshi looks nervous too. And they should. They did a bad, and they need to say they did a bad. But that goes into the PR portion of the evening's program, and not into the programming part.

The problem with kludges (and you can use the word 'hack' here if you like in the good meaning sort-of-way) is that it will invariably bite you on the ass later from a maintenance programming aspect. At some point you will realize that no matter how many times you said "you're not getting any headgear" there will be a little whoopsie-doodle of promising the community some hairstyles at some point, and you're not going to not have the bones to be able to move around.

And re-use of assets isn't abnormal, and it isn't bad. It's one of the things that makes their deployment of gear faster and I don't mind it. But there are limits to how far you can re-use before stuff gets weird. The Roe muscle slider, for example, is our tail-length.

The problem here, as I see it lies a lot in the whole "well modders were able to fix this very quickly, and they don't have your resources." This is true. They did, and they don't have your tools, knowledge, or access to QA.

I have bad news for everyone: Modders are not the answer to this problem.

A modder only has to change things for their screen. Not mine, and not for some person playing on a PS4. It's one of the reasons if you go to a mod site, you can get 4k texture packs, and it's one of the reasons Yoshi has said "we're fixing some items, and you're going to notice some glams look better while the striped shepherd slops still look like they did 6 years ago."

To clarify, there are things like "spaghetti code" like the Friends List or the glamour dresser where nobody really knows how it works any more and that programmer is gone. That's the 1.0 excuse.

The 3.0 excuse is that they used to do the kind of work that needs to be done here which is to design unique assets for different races to make things look right. See below:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...76/unknown.png

You'll notice the hairstyle here is different. The problem is that the kludge they did for the Hrothgar - ears in different places across all the head models and tacked on to the head - means they'd have to do an additional 4 hairstyles for each hair they wanted to implement, hunch or no. Or they'd have to turn on different haircuts that work on Face 2, but wouldn't work because of Face 4's horn.

And they simply don't do that kind of work any more. Which is why I said "All you really did with your 'research' is upgrade your excuse from the 1.0 excuse (spaghetti code, no one really knows how your head works) to the 3.0 excuse (we don't want to do one-off head-specific race-specific work any more) that's why.

The Hrothgar need a re-design from the top down. The "trick" they do to put us in hoods or to put the ears back on the head is just making something invisible - not moving an asset from one position to another. That's probably going to need to move some parts around, and it may involve putting bones where they belong, but it will definitely require some work.

My problem is that when you code in a kludge, the eventual re-work is foreseeable. And it's not something they want to do. And that's why I have dug in my heels and said I DO NOT WANT THE EARS PUT BACK ON THESE CRAPPY HAIRCUTS BECAUSE YOU WILL NEVER COME BACK AND FIX THE PROBLEM CORRECTLY.

So, again, if you want to help me out putting this in a video for err'body, please contact me on Twitter.

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Originally Posted by Akimori

Im personally using the Snow hairstyle with the tamamo band (Because ear physics!)

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i've considered this but the ears are too big for my liking.

Bumping for visibility but at this point might as well huff the doomium that we're not getting any meaningful update anytime soon.

@Kelev

Wait... from what you're saying, then them going back and redoing the older races, while commendable, is delaying the innevitable even harder. Hrothgar (and I presume Viera, but the problem seem to be more visible on Hrothgar) should have been the first to get that treatment. Insted they're just leaving it for later, which means even more years of dealing with incomplete stuff. Which in turn only makes me question: and when it's time for the Hrothgar glow-up, will Square Enix finally address every single one of these complaints? From hairstyles to headgear? Or will they just leave them as-is and find a new excuse?

But this is interesting. I know that we've had devs disappearing, it's why we no longer have the Carbuncle glamours. They were implemented once, we asked for more, Yoshida kept being cryptic about it until he told us to stop asking. But this? This sounds like a way bigger problem than it should be. All this is given credence by the fact that when Hrothgar were announced, their Shadowbringers website had to update the Hrothgar render they had because they changed the faces. They were a bit more polished, which implies that even back then, so close to release, these races were still under development.

And we know this happens because SE is known for moving people from Business Divisions around. It's even how 1.0 was made, by bringing in people from different departments together, an "A Team" of people with great skills (and capable of making high-polygon flower vases). Meaning not only were they still developing them, they were either understaffed or had to rely on people that weren't comfortable doing new races to begin with. Especially given the weird "ear polygons in the wrong place" thing as you said.

Firstly, if all you said is correct, then it does mean Square Enix has issues with the new races. It doesn't excuse the way they're treating them, by a long shot. But it does at least illustrate the actual problem, rather than pin the blame on the races like many in the community have done. Square needs to fix this, and properly allocate resources to do so. Because if this 3.0 excuse as you call it keeps being followed, and they don't try to resolve it, it will only continue to cause problems further down the line.

And secondly it just shows that Square needs to tidy up the dev team. I don't mean fire them, because they're talented in their own merit. But it's clear that they're not enough for the projects that they want to undertake. And the longer this continues, the worse the situation will get. Staying quiet won't make the problem go away.

This in itself isn't a problem modders can nor should fix. It's up to Square Enix to make up its mind. Honestly? If you can make a video to at least bring up some awareness about the problem, I say go for it. Perhaps it can get Square to understand that they can't just leave an ongoing project with less and less resources and expect it to survive.

Maybe SE should start hiring some of the modders out there...

I think there are just too few hrothgar players that SE probably doesn't deem it worthy to dedicate more resources to fix their hairstyles properly.

The total percentage of hrothgar players is like what, 1-2% of the entire playerbase? Especially if you compare to viera who are getting more hairstyles which don't hide their ears and look good. If you want fixes to hrothgar hairs, more people should fantasia to hrothgar so it becomes a more prominent issue and SE can no longer avoid it and just implement half-hearted fixes.

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Originally Posted by DeNada

I think there are just too few hrothgar players that SE probably doesn't deem it worthy to dedicate more resources to fix their hairstyles properly.

The total percentage of hrothgar players is like what, 1-2% of the entire playerbase? Especially if you compare to viera who are getting more hairstyles which don't hide their ears and look good. If you want fixes to hrothgar hairs, more people should fantasia to hrothgar so it becomes a more prominent issue and SE can no longer avoid it and just implement half-hearted fixes.

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Considering the popularity of viera, and the fact that it took them 2 and a half years to even add any hairstyles to them, all I see using a fantasia to change to a hrothgar accomplishing would be giving SE more money. I don't really see this having any sort of change. It's also debatable if the hairstyles on viera even look good. They just look better, because of their head shape.

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Originally Posted by DeNada

I think there are just too few hrothgar players that SE probably doesn't deem it worthy to dedicate more resources to fix their hairstyles properly.

The total percentage of hrothgar players is like what, 1-2% of the entire playerbase? Especially if you compare to viera who are getting more hairstyles which don't hide their ears and look good. If you want fixes to hrothgar hairs, more people should fantasia to hrothgar so it becomes a more prominent issue and SE can no longer avoid it and just implement half-hearted fixes.

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It's not like Viera are any better, let's be honest XD

But this is a flaw on design. We're 2% of the entire playerbase, true. But we make up a larger percentage at endgame\active characters. So which are you really going to make the game for? And should you ostracise people? Is it okay to ostracise them?

And as far as we're aware, they haven't come to us and told us "please stop demanding, we're officially labelling this as a Limited Race". Until then, this race should and is treated like every other. Even if it's implicitly going to be different. And that alone should already be a sign that people need to can the fatalist "Oh you're not enough of the playerbase to matter" and instead treat people equally. Because it doesn't matter if it's implicit or not, we still matter. If Lalafell get entire exclusive areas for them and furniture that only suits them, then it's clear there's a bias toward Lalafell, because no other race has had this preferential treatment. Yet it's implicit; to everyone else, Lalafell are just the same. So it doesn't matter if our numbers are smaller or not, there is no official stance that we're so different we should stop asking for it. All we've had were "Please and excuse us", and that doesn't make an official statement at all. You've all seen what an official statement from Yoshida is.

And people won't fantasia to a race that's obviously incomplete. And they know this, in fact, they hinge on this. To excuse themselves not applying themselves to the topic. And that's what people should be more aware of. We shouldn't have to change. THEY wanted Hrothgar in the game, playable. It's THEIR responsability to fix this, not ours for not playing something that isn't right.

This isn't Diadem. And even Diadem was given THREE chances until it finally worked out.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

This isn't Diadem. And even Diadem was given THREE chances until it finally worked out.

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It's kinda sad, really, that Diadem was at its best when it became a hollow shell of its former self when they removed basically everything and just threw gathering nodes into it and called it a day.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

It's not like Viera are any better, let's be honest XD

But this is a flaw on design. We're 2% of the entire playerbase, true. But we make up a larger percentage at endgame\active characters. So which are you really going to make the game for? And should you ostracise people? Is it okay to ostracise them?

And as far as we're aware, they haven't come to us and told us "please stop demanding, we're officially labelling this as a Limited Race". Until then, this race should and is treated like every other. Even if it's implicitly going to be different. And that alone should already be a sign that people need to can the fatalist "Oh you're not enough of the playerbase to matter" and instead treat people equally. Because it doesn't matter if it's implicit or not, we still matter. If Lalafell get entire exclusive areas for them and furniture that only suits them, then it's clear there's a bias toward Lalafell, because no other race has had this preferential treatment. Yet it's implicit; to everyone else, Lalafell are just the same. So it doesn't matter if our numbers are smaller or not, there is no official stance that we're so different we should stop asking for it. All we've had were "Please and excuse us", and that doesn't make an official statement at all. You've all seen what an official statement from Yoshida is.

And people won't fantasia to a race that's obviously incomplete. And they know this, in fact, they hinge on this. To excuse themselves not applying themselves to the topic. And that's what people should be more aware of. We shouldn't have to change. THEY wanted Hrothgar in the game, playable. It's THEIR responsability to fix this, not ours for not playing something that isn't right.

This isn't Diadem. And even Diadem was given THREE chances until it finally worked out.

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Yup I understand where you are coming from.

Unfortunately, the reality is that development resources are limited and if a particular issue only affects a very small part of the playerbase eg. Hrothgar, SE may simply deem it not economically feasible to dedicate more resources to implement better fixes.

Which was why I suggested that if we want to bring this to the developers attention, having more Hrothgar players could help do that even though it's not ideal.

The other way is for the minority to be extremely vocal such that the larger community becomes aware of the issue and help champion their causes as well. However , this won't be as effective since it has a less visible impact on the revenue/profits and since SE is a business ultimately, the main thing which determines whether something gets attention for fixes or not is the bottom line.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

It's kinda sad, really, that Diadem was at its best when it became a hollow shell of its former self when they removed basically everything and just threw gathering nodes into it and called it a day.

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I agree xD But it's still an example, like... they tried so hard to make it work. It's not the best iteration of it, but it does work and it DOES bring in more players.

It wasn't on us players to make Diadem any better. Nor is it on us players to make Hrothgar any more appealing to the devs.

They added it in the game. They were the ones who came up with the idea. It's their design, it's their game.

So you want to bring more attention to an already, admittedly, unpopular race? You correct the race. You make it appealing to play. You don't blame the playerbase for it being 2% of the total population. Because I'm sorry but how much are AUS players in comparison to JP, EU and NA combined? By that logic, why the hell did they get a new data center?

And by that logic, you wouldn't have tried so hard with Diadem.

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Originally Posted by DeNada

Yup I understand where you are coming from.

Unfortunately, the reality is that development resources are limited and if a particular issue only affects a very small part of the playerbase eg. Hrothgar, SE may simply deem it not economically feasible to dedicate more resources to implement better fixes.

Which was why I suggested that if we want to bring this to the developers attention, having more Hrothgar players could help do that even though it's not ideal.

The other way is for the minority to be extremely vocal such that the larger community becomes aware of the issue and help champion their causes as well. However , this won't be as effective since it has a less visible impact on the revenue/profits and since SE is a business ultimately, the main thing which determines whether something gets attention for fixes or not is the bottom line.

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You know we don't need to be a minority, right?

You could be a bit more supportive yourself and express to Square Enix "yo, this isn't right, even if I don't play it, there are players who do want this, please fix it".

That would help A LOT.

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Originally Posted by DeNada

I think there are just too few hrothgar players that SE probably doesn't deem it worthy to dedicate more resources to fix their hairstyles properly.

The total percentage of hrothgar players is like what, 1-2% of the entire playerbase? Especially if you compare to viera who are getting more hairstyles which don't hide their ears and look good. If you want fixes to hrothgar hairs, more people should fantasia to hrothgar so it becomes a more prominent issue and SE can no longer avoid it and just implement half-hearted fixes.

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Alot of us changed to Hrothgar at the launch of ShB and apon finding them lacking changed back to other races for more customization options. Those on PC had an easier time with mods to fix the problems and keep up with a limited option race. Those on PS4/5 moved on or settled for what they had.

If the spike of people changing to Hrothgar in ShB wasn't enough to push SE into making quality updates for the race then a bunch of people changing now would have the same results.

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Originally Posted by DeNada

I think there are just too few hrothgar players that SE probably doesn't deem it worthy to dedicate more resources to fix their hairstyles properly.

The total percentage of hrothgar players is like what, 1-2% of the entire playerbase? Especially if you compare to viera who are getting more hairstyles which don't hide their ears and look good. If you want fixes to hrothgar hairs, more people should fantasia to hrothgar so it becomes a more prominent issue and SE can no longer avoid it and just implement half-hearted fixes.

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God i hate this argument so much it's unreal.
Ask yourself this - why the hrothgar have such low numbers?
Maybe because people who were playing hrothgar a ton quit the race because of, not only the ingame harassment from other people, but also because of three years of broken promises and general dissatisfaction with how the race is? I have heard A LOT of people say "i'll wait for 6.1 to see the new hair things they'll do and maybe come back then", and they never do because it is THAT lackluster of fixes.
Your argument is actually exactly reverse of what it is, because devs should look at those numbers and think "huh, why nobody plays them, i guess we fucked up somewhere down the line".
Again. Majority of hrothgar populace switched off hrothgar a LONG TIME AGO, and never came back because for some reasons devs neglected the race.

I would like to go back to being a Hrothgar played most of Shadowbringers as one, sadly after a while i had to race change due to the fact I had to use a Fanta to change my hairstyle, and the whole no hats (I main Rdm and whats an Rdm without his hat) and the hunch why do beast races have to get such a bad back (i know about the /cpose but even then the avatar just looks down and to the right)

These just slowly got on my nerves till i just thought what's the point and became a generic highlander

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Originally Posted by DeNada

I think there are just too few hrothgar players that SE probably doesn't deem it worthy to dedicate more resources to fix their hairstyles properly.

The total percentage of hrothgar players is like what, 1-2% of the entire playerbase? Especially if you compare to viera who are getting more hairstyles which don't hide their ears and look good. If you want fixes to hrothgar hairs, more people should fantasia to hrothgar so it becomes a more prominent issue and SE can no longer avoid it and just implement half-hearted fixes.

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Hrothgar #s are low because they're too limited in their customization and up until patch 6.1, had to pay money to even change their hair. But SEdoesnt want to do anything because the hrothgar player population is low....its a vicious cycle

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Originally Posted by DeNada

I think there are just too few hrothgar players that SE probably doesn't deem it worthy to dedicate more resources to fix their hairstyles properly.

The total percentage of hrothgar players is like what, 1-2% of the entire playerbase? Especially if you compare to viera who are getting more hairstyles which don't hide their ears and look good. If you want fixes to hrothgar hairs, more people should fantasia to hrothgar so it becomes a more prominent issue and SE can no longer avoid it and just implement half-hearted fixes.

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Oh a lot of us switch to Hrothgar when they're live. Myself included.
But as others have said, the lack of customization on top of needing fantasia (and many other things) left a pretty bad taste. Especially after some in-game time you see that your Hrothgar is similar to 2 or 3 other Hrothgars... hmm yeah. I don't feel so unique afterall.

As I've said in my post early in this thread, SE should take steps to make the race more apealing / less restrictive. Not push people away from it even further but removing the ears or think they can get away by giving Hrothgar hairstyles that doesn't suit them.

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Originally Posted by Kelev

The Hrothgar need a re-design from the top down. The "trick" they do to put us in hoods or to put the ears back on the head is just making something invisible - not moving an asset from one position to another. That's probably going to need to move some parts around, and it may involve putting bones where they belong
My problem is that when you code in a kludge, the eventual re-work is foreseeable. And it's not something they want to do. And that's why I have dug in my heels and said I DO NOT WANT THE EARS PUT BACK ON THESE CRAPPY HAIRCUTS BECAUSE YOU WILL NEVER COME BACK AND FIX THE PROBLEM CORRECTLY.

So, again, if you want to help me out putting this in a video for err'body, please contact me on Twitter.

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This is a great post.
And exactly why I'm always advocating for exclusive, tailor made hairstyles for Hrothgar.

"Fixing the ears" on those hairstyles or having more of the human hairs will always have variants of the same old problems.

The ideal solution as you pointed out, is to start over, that said, they made it this way for a reason (imagine a Roegadyn with some beastial features) and ultimately I think we would have a worse version of them.

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Originally Posted by einschwartz

Oh a lot of us switch to Hrothgar when they're live. Myself included.
But as others have said, the lack of customization on top of needing fantasia (and many other things) left a pretty bad taste. Especially after some in-game time you see that your Hrothgar is similar to 2 or 3 other Hrothgars... hmm yeah. I don't feel so unique afterall.

As I've said in my post early in this thread, SE should take steps to make the race more apealing / less restrictive. Not push people away from it even further but removing the ears or think they can get away by giving Hrothgar hairstyles that doesn't suit them.

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I was one of those people. Played a Roe since 2016 when I started the game. Never switched back those because it was easier to dress up a hroth than it was to dress up a roe (Im all about the glam game. I can't save the world if I dont look cute af doing it). None of the other races appealed to me minus those two, so the answer was obvious. Stay Hroth. Was I happy about losing out on hair and hats? Absolutely no. Am I still unhappy? 100%, buuuuut. I resonate with my hroth more

On a side note: whats up with these tags? "whining and toxic players"....who did this?

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Originally Posted by Akimori

On a side note: whats up with these tags? "whining and toxic players"....who did this?

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You can hover your mouse on the tags to find out who posted them

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Originally Posted by myahele

You can hover your mouse on the tags to find out who posted them

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Ooh, busted~

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Originally Posted by Akimori

On a side note: whats up with these tags? "whining and toxic players"....who did this?

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Pretty typical to see stuff like that. I'm not sure a lot of people realize we can see who made these tags. There was a forum thread up the other day talking about people putting stuff like that in various threads on here.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Pretty typical to see stuff like that. I'm not sure a lot of people realize we can see who made these tags. There was a forum thread up the other day talking about people putting stuff like that in various threads on here.

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Funny thing is that I followed this user and their latest post was talking about being able to give criticism without worry of being called such things. mean while....they are doing the exact thing they said they hate people done. Ironic, huh? :T

Anyway, back on topic. I can understand the Hrothgar forehead thing. Fine. That would require a bit more work, but why go with 4 different forhead shapes when people dont actually see that part if thats whats causing a huge part of the issue. It makes me understand it even less for viera minus their airplane landing foreheads

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Originally Posted by Akimori

Funny thing is that I followed this user and their latest post was talking about being able to give criticism without worry of being called such things. mean while....they are doing the exact thing they said they hate people done. Ironic, huh? :T

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This is honestly a part of the topic that I keep hammering on. People need to understand that it isn't just the dev team. A LOT of people in the community bring up stuff like numbers or how the race is too "different", or just overall go through extreme lengths to justify Square Enix while bringing down other, actual players. And if there is something Square won't check it's hypocrisy. So it can be hard to sift through people saying that we're whining or being toxic and take the feedback we give seriously.

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Originally Posted by Akimori

Anyway, back on topic. I can understand the Hrothgar forehead thing. Fine. That would require a bit more work, but why go with 4 different forhead shapes when people dont actually see that part if thats whats causing a huge part of the issue. It makes me understand it even less for viera minus their airplane landing foreheads

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Honestly it's not like our forehead is that difficult to handle tbh. Even with what Kelev described as Kludge. A Miqo'te's skull isn't the same as a Roegadyn's skull either. And in fact, hairstyle that fits a Miqo'te's sides due to them not having ears there needs to be adjusted for races that do. And that's not even getting to Lalafell proportions. They DO do a bit more work on other races, so why be so bothered that ours demands work as well?

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Ooh, busted~

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lmao the theresa person's last post is them complaining about toxicity meanwhile they put up absurdly toxic tags.

good lord.

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Originally Posted by DeNada

I think there are just too few hrothgar players that SE probably doesn't deem it worthy to dedicate more resources to fix their hairstyles properly.

The total percentage of hrothgar players is like what, 1-2% of the entire playerbase? Especially if you compare to viera who are getting more hairstyles which don't hide their ears and look good. If you want fixes to hrothgar hairs, more people should fantasia to hrothgar so it becomes a more prominent issue and SE can no longer avoid it and just implement half-hearted fixes.

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You're not wrong, but maybe if they weren't half finished, more people would become Hrothgars. I mean, Viera is my favourite race, I stuck with it for the entirety of ShB, the longest I've ever stuck to a race (didn't even change her hair) but I wanted to play a male character and the excuses and slackness from S-E was exhausting, so I swapped to male because there was also this promise of more hairstyles. I thought I would be happy with it, but the hairstyles were the same, just about 6 with copypasted varieties with a feather here or there, no chance of choosing the ones you earned in game and the same headgear issues plus the noodley body with bad body posture (it even had to be emergency fixed before launch) and sunk chest . Couldn't keep it after finishing the MSQ and leveling a couple of jobs.

I mean, if they don't take care of their races with love and respect, it's not unusual for the playerbase to ignore an already niche race. M-Viera gets some love because "cute pretty boys" but that's about it.

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Originally Posted by Balmung_Griffin

This is a great post.

"Fixing the ears" on those hairstyles or having more of the human hairs will always have variants of the same old problems.

The ideal solution as you pointed out, is to start over, that said, they made it this way for a reason (imagine a Roegadyn with some beastial features) and ultimately I think we would have a worse version of them.

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We are Roegadyn with some bestial features. And I don't know that I'd start over. There is room for, and should be, incremental change. And being Roes with bestial feature means we're less likely to get left out of new glams, etc.

A first step would be standardizing the ear placement so all the racial hairs worked on all the faces. When I was 16 I didn't get a new car, but I did get a car that was new to me and that was good enough. And out of all the things that would need to happen, that's probably the thing that I can think of that would require the least effort. It's a quick fix, and gives us hairstyles and combinations that are new *AND* enables us to, at least in the future, choose our ear type. At the end of the day this is a change that is gonna need to happen anyway any way you slice it.

But the Hrothgar do need an overhaul, and that's going to be messy, or it's just going to involve some clipping. Which, if clipping is OK on Radovan in the gunbreaker class armor?

Gimme a break and just let me clip. Let me decide if it looks like crap because Predator Whitney Houston isn't a hairstyle. It's an infernal wig.

And that means there's Hell Toupee. (I'll see myself out.)

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Originally Posted by Kelev

And that means there's Hell Toupee. (I'll see myself out.)

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https://media.giphy.com/media/12ZDIx1Mw1cXVm/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

@Kelev

Hrothgar (and I presume Viera, but the problem seem to be more visible on Hrothgar)

*snip*

... Firstly, if all you said is correct, then it does mean Square Enix has issues with the new races...it will only continue to cause problems further down the line.

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This problem is specific to Hrothgar. Period.

So a lot of the re-does of the new races are better shaders and textures, but that doesn't solve the Hrothgar problem, which is that we need more vertices and bones and such. Viera, you've got an issue with ear placement, but that's a "suck-it-up-and-deal" thing more than anything else. Viera head shapes are pretty much human, you just have ears up top. And as evidence I will present the Viera character creator, where you're allowed to select your ear type/shape. We don't have that option because our ears are bolted to our faces. Those vertices have to come from somewhere.

Keep in mind this part is largely conjecture on my end, but remember that a character if nothing but a big ball of data. An example of a more invasive (but in my opinion better) option would be to treat the Hrothgar like we do embedded systems, like you'd find in a car, or on an electronic keypad. What's the difference between tail length 46, and 48? Nothing. So having tail size be small, medium, large and manx would take up two bits of the value that the Hrothgar carry around with them for the slider. By performing bitwise arithmetic on that value, you'd be able to pack more information into a Hrothgar's data "ball" than you would normally be able to fit into another character, and that's because the decision was made to have those be what the sliders represent. But without additional vertices, you'd be able to do things like keep more "skulls" (hair/face combos) than is normally allowed.

Another would be taking a vertex or two out of the tail.

But because of the Hrothgar jaw and the tail, we more bones borrowed than do other races. Viera don't have the complications we do, and that's one of the reasons that the problem is, in Yoshi's defense, so difficult. But when he says "the hair and face were designed as a set," he's leaving out something crucial to the problem, which is that we don't have ear bones, and the ears and face aren't even a set. They're a unit, and until those units are standardized on ear placement, or a couple of vertices are borrowed from someplace else to give us real ears? You just can't. And the hideous abominations are an attempt to "standardize" on a haircut that fits all four skulls and like most one-size-fits-all stuff, it looks like crap.

What we need is ear standardization. What we got?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...62/unknown.png

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Originally Posted by Balmung_Griffin

This is a great post.

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Also, thank you all to folks who keep reading these things. I try to put a lot of thought/information into these posts because I don't want to grouse about Yoshi and the devs modding and stuff, I just want it fixed. And the way that it's being explained is misleading and needs to be more complex than "these two things go together."

I am not a 3D modeler nor a real programmer, but I have 15 years of DevOps experience, so I'm not the guy you come to when you need to figure out how to make something work properly - I'm the guy who tells you 'sure I can put duct tape on it for you for now, but you're gonna have to come back and fix it right'. And it makes me feel negative, and petty, and awful.

So, thank you to all who read and comment, and post and hit like buttons. Not for me. For everyone. And this community and the game itself facilitate a lot of really great interactions, and I write what I do not to be the cleverest person in the room. I write because people should understand Hrothgar are in beta right now. We were for an entire expansion, and we deserve a go-live date.

I was INSTANTANEOUSLY corrected by my other half who is a programmer and loves 3D work.

What we got was this:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...34/unknown.png

Can't breathe.

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Originally Posted by Denji

lmao the theresa person's last post is them complaining about toxicity meanwhile they put up absurdly toxic tags.

good lord.

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People in this game hate Furries and Furry races, anything you add to the conversation that even slightly disagrees with them will be brushed off and disregarded with an "OK Furry" or "The Furries are mad!". This is seen in and out of the game. But remember "we are the most accepting community, guys!"

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Originally Posted by Pip_Chick

People in this game hate Furries and Furry races, anything you add to the conversation that even slightly disagrees with them will be brushed off and disregarded with an "OK Furry" or "The Furries are mad!". This is seen in and out of the game. But remember "we are the most accepting community, guys!"

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Pfft. Probably because WoW fans have been accusing FF14 of being a furry game for years. Thing is, it doesn't matter what you think: they're both furry games.

TBH the furry hate goes way past this game. People associate the furry fandom to its sexual portion, and while that's admittedly a big portion of the fandom it goes way beyond it. They only know of furry fandom because it is way more visible now than it used to be, a level of attention older people in the community don't want because they know it's just going to attract undesirable members (members of hate groups and sex offenders) and even more harassment toward furries in general. To many people, it's not about the sexual aspect. It's about having an avatar that expresses who they really are. The whole "equality by everyone being different" and "celebrating what makes you special". But do you think internet people care? They just see people in animal costumes making kinky content, and boom, controversy and weird. Yet I've personally seen far more good things done by the furry fandom itself than anything the FF14 community has ever made. Have any of you managed to get disadvantaged people a house? Came together to help pay off someone's health debt and treatment? Because I've seen the furry fandom do that. I haven't seen the Yoshida Club lift a finger.

But this reminds me of how this community has treated players of certain races through stereotypes. Not just the whole "Lalafell = Child" thing. Roegadyn, Male Au Ra, Male Miqo'te and Male Viera were and sometimes still are equated to being "for the gays". That "if you're X race, you're gay". Mhmm, because being straight means you want to be a bland Hyur. Just as much as you have straight people playing all those races, so too will you have non-furries playing Hrothgar. People need to stop throwing in stereotypes. FF14 may be a welcoming community, but it's not an accepting one. It's only ever accepting toward the same boring and bland groups. Ask a Roegadyn, a Viera or a Hrothgar if they feel the acceptance in the air.

That sort of thing shouldn't be a factor as to whether or not this race should be supported or improved upon. And Square should not be listening to people like that. They should be listening to the people who play their race. People who've shown support for it and people who've shown interest in it. Because, and I'll say it as many times as I have to: No one asked for Hrothgar. Square themselves added it in. And even though it's not the most popular for a myriad of reasons, you have players who really do enjoy it as much as any of you enjoy your own race.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pip_Chick

People in this game hate Furries and Furry races, anything you add to the conversation that even slightly disagrees with them will be brushed off and disregarded with an "OK Furry" or "The Furries are mad!". This is seen in and out of the game. But remember "we are the most accepting community, guys!"

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Then there's people like me who simply enjoy playing the race. My enjoyment doesn't go any deeper than "they look cool". I've still been called a furry. I also got quite an education a good while back on the forums as well that I never wanted or needed. Apparently I have to be attracted to my character to enjoy playing them? lol That was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

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Originally Posted by Kelev

This problem is specific to Hrothgar. Period.

snipped the rest

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>< sorry, just wanted to give the benefit of the doubt. To me, Viera were incomplete as well, so I was expecting them to also Kludge their way through some stuff. But this problem is just singularly on Hrothgar then.

I too spoke to a friend of mine about this. He's got a degree in Software Design and is currently on a Master's degree on Game Developping. And what he said was that not only is this inexcusable from a software design stand, it's also inexcusable from a game dev design. Because yes, you need to factor in costs, time, effort, resources, how comfortable your team is making a race that isn't a humanoid, stuff like that. But you do it right at the start, before any of this is released. They get together, make a design and plan this stuff out. They ask how long it would take, if it's even doable, and sometimes, if the company is any good, they'll ask how they plan on doing it. They'll ask how they plan to do it so that they don't meet random "unforeseen" situations such as a programmer saying "Yeah, we wanted to do it, turns out we have no idea how and figuring out how will take us longer".

He also said something about "iteration". For a programmer, an iteration is just "how many times a loop has looped". But for a software developer, an iteration is every version of a software you have until the final product is released. He said that if Hrothgar are this bad at this specific iteration, imagine how poor the process was through each iteration until then. So either they Kludge'd their way into this mess over and over, which is just crap design. Or they just Kludge'd it once and called it a day, shipped it as-is, and that's what we've been stuck with for three years, which is also crap design.

Also... I get we're "in beta". But holy crap, Square, can you please release one feature in FF14 that ISN'T beta? Even the Adventurer Portraits say Beta! Why are you giving us stuff in this state? To rush out content and have us play around with features you want to see implemented? I admire the effort, but the more they keep throwing stuff that's unfinished like this, the more the game will need more and more work to fix everything it has. That's tiring to see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelev

I was INSTANTANEOUSLY corrected by my other half who is a programmer and loves 3D work.

What we got was this:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...34/unknown.png

Can't breathe.

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Yeah pretty much. We're just Roegadyn with hair textures and a different face. A face with a Roegadyn structure on the back and a snout on the front. It's not a "new" race, it doesn't have any different proportions like Au Ra did. Au Ra may be humanoid and stretched out Elezen, but their whole sillouette is different. Hrothgar are just Roegadyn in a permanent "I need to poop but I can't find a bathroom" animation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Then there's people like me who simply enjoy playing the race. My enjoyment doesn't go any deeper than "they look cool". I've still been called a furry. I also got quite an education a good while back on the forums as well that I never wanted or needed. Apparently I have to be attracted to my character to enjoy playing them? lol That was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

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I just sum it up to "People talking about stuff they don't understand like they're suddenly experts on it" :|

Not even furries are attracted to their own creations like that, they really are just avatars. Sure, some might, but that's still reducing it to stereotypes. One would know better if they actually spoke to furries.

Keep playing the race if you think it's cool. Engage in the lore about it if you think it's cool.

Hrothgar are a race of people with an ancestral culture that worshipped their Queens as emanations of the Sun. They had a chaste social structure, they considered Gunbreakers to be a noble protective profession and they engaged in Astronomy more than Astrology. They were one of the few places in the Three Great Continents to never have been conquered by the Allagans, and indeed is why the Gunblade exists. Their legends speak of Queen Gunnhildr, who protected Bozja during the Fourth Umbral Calamity. They were invaded by the Garlean Empire, many of them placed in concentration camps and subjected to horrors, from torture to human experimentation. Their capital city was wiped out by Nael van Darnus and Midas nan Garlond. Though they are not numerous, and indeed their forces keep getting caught by Garleans, they still formed a resistance faction that we help from Gangos to reclaim their homeland.

That is what a Hrothgar is, and if people enjoy that, they have every right to without being called stuff they're not.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Yeah pretty much. We're just Roegadyn with hair textures and a different face. A face with a Roegadyn structure on the back and a snout on the front. It's not a "new" race, it doesn't have any different proportions like Au Ra did. Au Ra may be humanoid and stretched out Elezen, but their whole sillouette is different. Hrothgar are just Roegadyn in a permanent "I need to poop but I can't find a bathroom" animation.

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When Hrothgar was 1st released I had trouble differentiating them from Roegadyn based on their frame alone if they're wearing a helmet and it's only when I see their tails and posture.

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Originally Posted by myahele

When Hrothgar was 1st released I had trouble differentiating them from Roegadyn based on their frame alone if they're wearing a helmet and it's only when I see their tails and posture.

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well, if you see them wearing a helmet, that is usually a dead giveaway it's not a Hrothgar..... yes, I am still salty about equipment, why do you ask?