Bard - they broke my job

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Originally Posted by SonTensei

on bismark ex its not worth it because you need to save your Cd's for the carapice.

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Carapace is easy to break

I burst on the 1st adds and still broke the carapace one shot.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

According to the bard dps threads I'm reading bards are at 950, not 800. Your taking my statement and lowering bard numbers but keeping other numbers the same. Not only that I'm giving you facts that's SE has to consider when balancing a job and you twisting my words in a way I have no idea how you did it.

For parsing on a dummy versus coil. Take for instance a monk. It's mew abilities won't shine until a mob has a 8+ second phase change. Unless your dps is super high you aren't seeing this in bismark ex. However currently in coil you see multiple phase changes like that in a lot of fights. T2, T5, T9, T10, t11, t12, t13. How can you parse an ability on a dummy or in a fight without phase changes with extra down time that is designed to be used when those things happen

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First part, Yes, I have taken into consideration the one person who has shown a 950ish parse using double dex pots and completely controlled environment where movement is never needed compared to natural rotations for other jobs. Simply put, a BRD does do more damage in WM full time but in actual content, the gains are minimal at best due to content design.

Second part, Those types of phase pushes are not honestly that much of an issue due to melee having a sort of gap closer and have the base raw damage to make up for these phase changes. Those phase changes affect each and every damage dealing job in the same fashion. To add to that, BRDs also have a builder with having to apply straight shot, Windbite, and Venom bite for each of these phase changes. That argument is completely invalid.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

Edit here is a second example. During progression players take more damage and die, healers us mp and eventualy need it refresh or everyone dies. Mage balled is keeping your other dps both physical and magical alive so they can keep dps ing. Without that deat dps drops down to 400. You are the one giving the mp to keep those party members alive and keeping their dps high, without it the party would wipe earlier and progress slower each time. This also counts towards your dps (from a developmental standpoint) this is why progression grubs will continue to have bards because what good is a healer without mp. It's all about balance.

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I see since you edited your post here, I thought I would take a moment to respond to this as well.

You have just agreed to a major flaw in the BRD design. "During progression" See, this in itself is just bad design. After progression, ballads are for the most part useless and actually, can cause problems. I had no use for Mage's Ballad after only a few kills in FCOB turn 4. There was no beneficial gains from even having the ability in what was currently the most difficult content in the game (this was in it's non echo form as well), It wasn't very long in where Foe Requiem became more of a problem then useful as it caused odd phase pushing. While the ballads did help, at no point were they needed to learn the content. This is also taking into consideration that the game between 130 BRD and 130 (any) wasn't as large as it is right now.

Overall numbers have increased, and rather drastically. Potency can be looked at as a percentage based on weapon damage. Using numbers for the sake of numbers, 200 potency on a weapon that does 20 damage is the same percentage difference a 200 potency for a weapon that does 24 damage as is its the same gap for 40 vs 44. As of HW, the weapon damage difference is now 7 points. That creates a large basic gap between BRD and others. This type of scaling is going to continue only creating a larger gap and the iLvl increases and new content is released.

The most obvious problem with the "Bards/Machinists are support, they don't need to deal damage!" argument is that, for that to be valid, they would need to design every given encounter to REQUIRE a BRD/MCH or else they would simply be omitted from groups entirely when they could just add another DPS to kill things quicker.

The second problem is that the duty finder still doesn't recognize 'support' as its own role, hence you can easily get stuck with two or four 'support' jobs, thus crippling the party's damage output and making for not so much of a fun time for anyone involved.

It's all complete nonsense. They would have to effectively remake large chunks of the game to make that work. BRD sitting at roughly -10% DPS was fine. This new paradigm is not.

Edit: Just going to quote myself because I thought of a few more things:

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Simple answers:

1. Because the duty finder doesn't recognize 'support' as its own role. The last thing you want is to get four supports instead of three DPS and a support because nothing else showed up.

2. Because player expectations are already set. Most players expect both jobs to be able to *deal damage*. Furthermore, thematically speaking, there is zero replacement for someone who likes archery or guns and wants to deal damage at the same time, hence you would undoubtedly lose the support (heh) of all of those players if you dropped them into a full support role.

3. Because you would then need to design raids and possibly even dungeons to REQUIRE BRDs/MCHs or else they get dropped from parties entirely for more damage dealers. Remember that their auras scale on the number of players they are affecting, and are thus considerably less useful in 4-mans.

4. Because we only have two jobs that would actually qualify for this "support" role, which would result in a severely underpopulated role should they add 'support' to all parties and raids as dedicated slots of their own. They would need to, *at a minimum*, add another job that qualifies as 'support' to maintain the balance.

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Already started to lvl another class to 60.
I don't actually see that much hope in that case.

Bad design is bad.

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Originally Posted by Entropic

Already started to lvl another class to 60.
I don't actually see that much hope in that case.

Bad design is bad.

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Probably safe to do, but I think they'll streamline it and get bard up to par where they should be.

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Originally Posted by LLamaPie

Probably safe to do, but I think they'll streamline it and get bard up to par where they should be.

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WM isn't something you can easily streamline. You'd need a major change made to it and the abilities dependent on it. Whether the devs can actually look at their design and actually deal with the flaws remains to be seen. It's happened with WAR, so there is some hope.

I'm glad we got an actual response and they'r going to be working on it.
Also glad they did hear the concerns about WP being a useless skill and we might get a bonus fix to that too.

But right now I'm very afraid of what they'r going to do with WM, since what is being said to us doesn't seem to mention the core issues with minuet, but rather mention the duck-tape fixes that were proposed by people.

The people playing for bards chose this path because I don't want to be a caster,but want to be range dps. Could take a BLM or SMN if I wanted to be a caster. By restricting movement for bards,making them pillars+time caste abilities,SE breaking all the charm of the selected class. I think enter WM was a mistake. Why not just add the new damage skills+1 more buff by 20% damage without any restrictions in movements and caste skills.

In regards to Warden's Paean, I really hope they do not change it too drastically, as it seemed like a really neat and unique ability, especially for PvP.

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Originally Posted by nickx

In regards to Warden's Paean, I really hope they do not change it too drastically, as it seemed like a really neat and unique ability, especially for PvP.

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There are pvp skills for pvp.
PvP balance should never ever affect PvE in this game where the PvE is the main course and PvP is a side dish.