I am excited to see what happens when subs kick in.

Don't even need a crystal ball to tell how things go with P2P MMOs. Once free month is over, population nose dives..... then comes server merges and if population keeps dropping further then the announcement for F2P. FFXIV is a fun game but competition is really fierce these days and a lot of other MMO offers same and lot more for free or in buy to play package. So it is goign to be tough time ahead for FFXIV.

PVP isn't going to save this game though, i see a lot of people excited about PVP but the FFXIV combat isn't just suited for that. Anyone remember the failure PVP was in FFXI? housing is a nice addition but other MMOS are already ahead in that department too. So yeah more content is always good but i am not foolish enough to believe that all these features will help in boosting subs because they won't.

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Originally Posted by Nikki

Don't even need a crystal ball to tell how things go with P2P MMOs. Once free month is over, population nose dives..... then comes server merges and if population keeps dropping further then the announcement for F2P. FFXIV is a fun game but competition is really fierce these days and a lot of other MMO offers same and lot more for free or in buy to play package. So it is goign to be tough time ahead for FFXIV.

PVP isn't going to save this game though, i see a lot of people excited about PVP but the FFXIV combat isn't just suited for that. Anyone remember the failure PVP was in FFXI? housing is a nice addition but other MMOS are already ahead in that department too. So yeah more content is always good but i am not foolish enough to believe that all these features will help in boosting subs because they won't.

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Even assuming that the game loses as many subs as SWTOR did (unlikely), the current population numbers are promising for a sustainable future for the game.



Bear in mind that any 1.0 players (not just those who were legacy) have already been billed and have already paid for their sub. Even with that in place, the game is still functioning at or near capacity. That means that not only has the game maintained a near-capacity concurrent login amount even after the first wave of subs, but it suggests that many of the players jaded from their experience in 1.0 (and thereafter quit) have stayed with the game. These players alone are enough to keep the numbers that SE was anticipating.

The only real question that remains is what proportion of players will stay of those who came in to the game with ARR. At this point, it's really hard to make that call. The fact is that nobody really knows, and we won't know for sure until the free month is over for new players.

Bottom line is, you claim that you don't need a crystal ball to tell how things go, and then you proceed to prognosticate using one. By the way, it's clearly broken.

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Originally Posted by Nikki

Don't even need a crystal ball to tell how things go with P2P MMOs. Once free month is over, population nose dives..... then comes server merges and if population keeps dropping further then the announcement for F2P.

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Because FFXI totally did that.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Jinko, you always make really sharp observations and I usually agree with you. You can't be saying because another game by an insanely cheap and lazy developer is the bar by which all new MMO content should be judged? Activision Blizzard is the very definition of being "good enough" and not going the extra mile

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I'm not sure you can say Blizzard are a cheap lazy dev, granted graphically the game looks like a turd but underneath it there is a very solid game with very solid dungeon and end game content. (the reason so many people play WoW is because there is so much to do)

Well, Legacy/1.0 subs have kicked in already, and I still see plenty of Legacy/1.0 players on my server. Everyone in my FC who isn't Legacy/1.0 has already setup a subscription and are just waiting to get charged for their veteran rewards.

The whole, let's what and see what happens when subs kick in; It's basically the equivalent of someone saying that in winter, it might snow. Makes me wonder if some of the people who post stuff like this on MMO forums are all "IN YOUR FACE!! I SOOO TOLD YOU!! I WAS RIGHT!!!" every time it snows in the winter.

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Originally Posted by coffeepotz

Because FFXI totally did that.

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FFXI isn't part of the current mmo market is that way.

Most current MMOs do pop spike then die off.

I guess I am the only one who is amused by rude people in the game. Did Ifrit hard mode last night and a big fight broke out between the scholar and tank because the scholar was using clerical stance. It was funny. Adds entertainment to this game.

What will happen when subs kick in.

We will lose the mmo hoppers like every mmos does.

So instead of 1.1 million players we will probably endup with around 600-700k. What SE does with the major content patches will determine if that stabilizes or continues to fall. There is no denying the major issues with the endgame design... it is horrible atm.

ToRs issue was the game lacked endgame, just like ARR. But the difference is the content patch coming up is massive so Where ToR had almost no content patches XIV is getting a major patch in 2-3months. And it is not a small one with 1-2 dungeons, it is a mini expansion of sorts. (Basically everything that did not make it into launch more or less, nearly doubling/tripling endgame and adding PvP)

ToR's fundamental game ignoring the lack of content was also much weaker then ARR. Honestly the only thing that was better in my opinion was the story and voice acting... 2 things that honestly mean little when it comes to a mmos longevity. Because once you go through the story you are done it for good.

Legacy servers are still slammed with players atm no idea about non-legacy and we all paid. Now we are the diehards yes, but if 75% non-legacy players in NA and EU quit.. while the JP worlds are still at capacity almost all of them same for NA/Eu Legacy. The game will still be a smashing success in the long run.

Remember Yoshida Planned on sub 500k, we are near 1.1million. We can lose half the population and still be above projections for SE to continue feeding us content.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I'm not sure you can say Blizzard are a cheap lazy dev, granted graphically the game looks like a turd but underneath it there is a very solid game with very solid dungeon and end game content. (the reason so many people play WoW is because there is so much to do)

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I don't know... just companies that make 2 billion a year in subs and still charge for expansions... seems greedy to me. Also, not updating the graphics with even hi res texture packs (Which wouldn't exclude people with lower end machines from still playing the game). Seems like they only did what was necessary and nothing more. The responsiveness falls under "Necessary" in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Fuz

Not subbing. Too many issues.
- Visual lag... endgame completely broken and unplayable
- Outdated RGN system
- tab targeting abysmal

And lots more, but those are the most importants.

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For the end game being completely unplayable, I'm sure having fun with it.

Being unable to do it personally doesn't make it unplayable, just sayin...

I think it will lose a lot of players but not because they want to quit. But, because of the terrible billing system SE has in place. That thing is crap and you all will get to know how crap it is soon.

Hopefully all the super 1337 rage quitters will go find a new game to play and Final Fantasy fans will stay and help build a great community and a great game.

Square already made a profit for over 1 year and /12 of the game so I looking forward to this new content every 2-3 months nay sayers will be gone and can come to a supportive fourms

If FFXI is any indication, this game will never go F2P.

Square made this game expecting far fewer people than are playing it. It's why it has a sub model, they didn't need high player numbers to be profitable. I'm sure the drop-off in players will be expected and won't ruin anything.

Besides, don't you dudes know not to rush to the end-game in a new MMO by now? They're always bad. They're bad on purpose, they're trying to bottleneck progress.

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Originally Posted by ashikenshin

I think it will lose a lot of players but not because they want to quit. But, because of the terrible billing system SE has in place. That thing is crap and you all will get to know how crap it is soon.

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Eh? You mean choosing one, two or three months and entering your card details and your done? Whats so bad about that? :/

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Originally Posted by Tribunus

Eh? You mean choosing one, two or three months and entering your card details and your done? Whats so bad about that? :/

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It's crap if you're using something like NoScript or maybe a certain type of adblock addon. But that's not exactly the fault of SE that we're too ignorant about the things we use lol. It's just fine otherwise.

The SE Subscription system is pretty bad if you want to hide your credit card info. Maybe that is what some people are doing.

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Originally Posted by Orsnoire

Bottom line is, you claim that you don't need a crystal ball to tell how things go, and then you proceed to prognosticate using one. By the way, it's clearly broken.

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Whatever i said is common sense and based on the past trend of post release P2P MMOS and their downfall. That is why i said in beginning that one doesn't need a crystal ball to guess the obvious. FFXIV is just another themepark MMO like its predecessors and i see no reason why it will have a different fate when it is even though fun is as generic as it gets in terms of features. What FFXIV does, every other MMO also does it and more on top of that offers it in F2P or B2P package.

So yeah i already know for sure how things are going to turn out in few months for FFXIV. Again this is not being gloomer or droomer but being practical. I have learned from the past, maybe you haven't.

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Originally Posted by Verdan

Square made this game expecting far fewer people than are playing it. It's why it has a sub model, they didn't need high player numbers to be profitable. I'm sure the drop-off in players will be expected and won't ruin anything.

Besides, don't you dudes know not to rush to the end-game in a new MMO by now? They're always bad. They're bad on purpose, they're trying to bottleneck progress.

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Actually XIV's Endgame is incredibly good. Well balanced, lots of interesting mechanics and more than anything a real challenge of execution for the players. Just to clarify this as I know it's a "go-to" rebuttal around these parts, but the Turn 5 Coil fight wont suddenly be "easy" with Crystal Tower gear, there are mechanics in place that ignore your gear and challenge your cohesion and reaction times as a team.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

I don't know... just companies that make 2 billion a year in subs and still charge for expansions... seems greedy to me. Also, not updating the graphics with even hi res texture packs (Which wouldn't exclude people with lower end machines from still playing the game). Seems like they only did what was necessary and nothing more. The responsiveness falls under "Necessary" in my opinion.

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ITT: a person who doesn't understand profit economics (or is willfully ignorant about it).

Dude, charging money for things is how companies make money. All these B2P or "F"2P games are what are truly cheap and obnoxious trends in the market. Second-rate games that try to masquerade as first-rate games all the while perpetuating a severely undervalued money exchange for the game.

As far as graphics: eh...I've had people telling me for years that other MMOs have "far better" graphics than WoW, then play them only to see how truly awful the graphics engines are. People also used to say that Mortal Kombat had the "best graphics" ever and was better than Street Fighter II. MEHSTORM!! Animation and smoothness of the graphics engine are both FAR more important than textures or frozen images. It amazes me that still, in 2013, we have people who are silly enough to think that textures/images > animation.

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Originally Posted by Nikki

Whatever i said is common sense and based on the past trend of post release P2P MMOS and their downfall. That is why i said in beginning that one doesn't need a crystal ball to guess the obvious. FFXIV is just another themepark MMO like its predecessors and i see no reason why it will have a different fate when it is even though fun is as generic as it gets in terms of features. What FFXIV does, every other MMO also does it and more on top of that offers it in F2P or B2P package.

So yeah i already know for sure how things are going to turn out in few months for FFXIV. Again this is not being gloomer or droomer but being practical. I have learned from the past, maybe you haven't.

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You're comparing apples to oranges. The reasons behind recent P2P games' failures is far more simple than you're making it out to be:

They've all been extremely poorly designed.

This is the first game since WoW that has taken the model, added substantive things to that framework, and produced a game worthy of the AAA title. Are there bugs? yep. Is there a lack of content? Absolutely. The difference is that those two things are openly acknowledged and that we've gotten fixes for those things in the recent past (and there is a major content patch in the immediate future).

So yes, you're being doom and gloom, and not practical. "Practical" includes being realistic about ALL of the factors involved, of which you've ignored several key factors.

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Originally Posted by Orsnoire

So yes, you're being doom and gloom, and not practical. "Practical" includes being realistic about ALL of the factors involved, of which you've ignored several key factors.

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Oh please every MMO that came out before FFXIV had similar amount of content or more. SWTOR, RIFT, Tera etc..all these MMOS had good launches, minimum bugs and had similar amount of content and even more.

All these were AAA titles and have been frequently adding content, RIFT being on the top in terms of content addition. All these MMOS were also following WOW formula. And yet players kept on leaving because it is just too hard to maintain a subscription based MMO due to very saturated market and high competition. Players have way too many choices these days.

Realistic people like me have experienced it all so know how it works. You make it sound as if FFXIV is the first to take WOW model and added substantive things to that framework. But that is the fanboy inside you which is refusing to see the reality. No wonder i look like a doomer and gloomer to you.

Bookmark this post now and visit it again in 6 months. You might think differently.

I can't imagine their overhead is too high... There's far more recycled enemies from FFXI, FFXII, and FFXIII in this game than there are new ones. Quite a few of them don't even look like they used new textures.

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Originally Posted by Nikki

Oh please every MMO that came out before FFXIV had similar amount of content or more. SWTOR, RIFT, Tera etc..all these MMOS had good launches, minimum bugs and had similar amount of content. All these weer AAA titles and have been frequently adding content, RIFT being on the top in terms of content addition.

Realistic people like me have experienced it all so know how it works. You make it sound as if FFXIV is the first to do something like that and all other devs don't give a damn about their products. But that is the fanboy inside you which is refusing to see the reality. No wonder i look like a doomer and gloomer to you.

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I can guarantee I've experienced more in the MMO genre than you have, as long as you want to turn this into a power struggle and a pissing match. The fact of the matter is, games aren't interchangeable. There IS a difference between game A and game B. SWTOR, RIFT, Tera, FF XIV 1.0, etc. are all piss-poorly developed games, and anyone who is objective acknowledges that fact. RIFT, granted, has "more" content, but to claim it's better is just silly. The initial endgame content in RIFT was universally criticized in the industry. And that was the best of the bunch that you mentioned. They were only "AAA" titles (quotes used intentionally) and were despised by the MMO playing audience immediately with most players never reaching the first billing month.

Right now in FF XIV, the only real complaint about endgame is that there isn't enough of it so you have to run the same (generally hailed as well-designed) dungeon over and over. But that changes in 2 months when CT and new dungeons come out.

So yeah, you're being a doom and gloomer. You have no idea WTF you're talking about. Also, LOL at the use of fanboy just because someone disagrees with your wide brush overgeneralization.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

For the end game being completely unplayable, I'm sure having fun with it.

Being unable to do it personally doesn't make it unplayable, just sayin...

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'K. Bye.


..........

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Originally Posted by Orsnoire

I can guarantee

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No i used the term fan boy because you don't even know a simple fact that FFXIV isn't the first MMO to use WOW framework. Wasn't that your original statement? and that is BS.

Only because in your opinion SWTOR? RIFT etc were badly made MMOS doesn't mean it is some universal truth. However what is a universal FACT is that MMO market is too saturated now days and competition is high. Players have more choices and if they don't like a certain MMO they move on.

Could you show me the link of this 'universally criticized Rift end game content'? if not then stop pulling stuff out of you know where.

For some one who claims to know it all you clearly have no idea that MMOS failing these days have more to do with saturated market than the games itself. You think a lot of people are not criticizing FFXIV? or you just willfully ignorant because obviously you don't want to see that. For every player who says SWTOR is bad i will show you equal numbers who say FFXIV sucks.

Welcome to internet where all MMOS are hated. But that is not what we are talking about here now are we? we are talking about viability of SUB based MMOS among this highly saturated market of WOW clones and very high competition.

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Originally Posted by Orsnoire

Long story short: Nikki is a hipster.

Gotcha. Nothing to see here.

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In other words 'i have no more stuff to pull out of my behind'.

I don't think 'hipster' means what you think it means.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I'm not sure you can say Blizzard are a cheap lazy dev, granted graphically the game looks like a turd but underneath it there is a very solid game with very solid dungeon and end game content. (the reason so many people play WoW is because there is so much to do)

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There actually isn't, since WOTLK there's about a month of content to do per expansion, then a 2-4 weeks of content per major content update. WOW has the least amount of relevant content of any MMO I've played.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orsnoire

Right now in FF XIV, the only real complaint about endgame is that there isn't enough of it so you have to run the same (generally hailed as well-designed) dungeon over and over. But that changes in 2 months when CT and new dungeons come out.

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Lack of good/enough end game content is why every wow-clone MMO has failed since WOW, actually. FF14 doesn't fix this problem at all. Release super quick/easy to level up games with extremely lacking end game content, the bane of every WOW clone MMO's existence for the past decade. 2.1 looks good, but will it be enough? Probably not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Felis

Of course not.
And because it is not enough, SE also plan 2.2, 2.3, 2.4 and so on.
And somedays it have enough content that a new player don't know what to do first.

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No, you can't release 2.1 then say "but in 3-4 months you'll get more content!", the 2.1 content updates needs to have enough content to last 3-4 months, if it doesn't, it isn't enough. It might, I hope it does, but I highly doubt it.

Long story short: Nikki is a hipster.

Gotcha. Nothing to see here.

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I don't think 'hipster' means what you think it means.

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Per the urban dictionary:

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\hip-stur\n. One who possesses tastes, social attitudes, and opinions deemed cool by the cool. (Note: it is no longer recommended that one use the term "cool"; a Hipster would instead say "deck.") The Hipster walks among the masses in daily life but is not a part of them and shuns or reduces to kitsch anything held dear by the mainstream.

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i.e. you hate MMOs cause it's cool to hate MMOs, and you hold the same dumbass positions about MMOs that are dictated to you by the "cool" blogs and bloggers (i.e. Cynical Brit).

I stand by my statement. You're nothing but another sheep hipster.

For those who dont have credit cards why not just buy a visa gift card for 20 bucks and use that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

2.1 looks good, but will it be enough? Probably not.

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Of course not.
And because it is not enough, SE also plan 2.2, 2.3, 2.4 and so on.
And somedays it have enough content that a new player don't know what to do first.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orsnoire

Dude, charging money for things is how companies make money. All these B2P or "F"2P games are what are truly cheap and obnoxious trends in the market. Second-rate games that try to masquerade as first-rate games all the while perpetuating a severely undervalued money exchange for the game.

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"thats how companies make money"
That same rhetoric has been used by every swindler since the beginning of time. All I'm saying is... if you have a successful pay to play model, then making those players (who are paying a monthly fee) pay extra for new expansions to be able to go to new areas feels a lot like the cash shops that nickel and dime you in free games.
You're defending a company that had the highest "Profit Margin" in the industry (During WoWs prime) so don't try to make it seem like they were just trying to make an honest dollar.

If Milk cost the grocery story 75 Cents a gallon and they were selling it to customers for 12 dollars a gallon, people would be up in arms.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orsnoire

As far as graphics: eh...I've had people telling me for years that other MMOs have "far better" graphics than WoW, then play them only to see how truly awful the graphics engines are. People also used to say that Mortal Kombat had the "best graphics" ever and was better than Street Fighter II. MEHSTORM!! Animation and smoothness of the graphics engine are both FAR more important than textures or frozen images. It amazes me that still, in 2013, we have people who are silly enough to think that textures/images > animation.

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Its not about the graphics as much as it's about the effort (or lack thereof) put into them. And honestly textures/images can coexist with good animations and responsiveness. If you don't believe that then we all might as well have stayed in the 16 bit video game era

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Its not about the graphics as much as it's about the effort (or lack thereof) put into them. And honestly textures/images can coexist with good animations and responsiveness. If you don't believe that then we all might as well have stayed in the 16 bit video game era

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Wait until next year.
I hope you have a good PC to run the DX11 client on high settings. Yoshida mentioned something about 3 TITAN graphic cards.

Quote:

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If Milk cost the grocery story 75 Cents a gallon and they were selling it to customers for 12 dollars a gallon, people would be up in arms.

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And yet there's similar markups all over the economy and people say nothing.

A simple phrase applies here: you get what you pay for.

Crap F2P/B2P games are crap. It's surprising that it takes some players longer than 2-3 hours playing those games to realize it though.

Quote:

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Its not about the graphics as much as it's about the effort (or lack thereof) put into them. And honestly textures/images can coexist with good animations and responsiveness. If you don't believe that then we all might as well have stayed in the 16 bit video game era

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Yeah, you're right they CAN, but in reality developers are forced to choose. It boils down to being more like a slider than many want to admit, because engines can only handle so much graphical intensity. At the end of the day (assuming that the graphics engine is one that is related to MMOs), you can have spectacular animations OR you can have spectacular textures. You just don't end up seeing both.

(and for the record, FF XIV is somewhere in the middle there).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Felis

Wait until next year.
I hope you have a good PC to run the DX11 client on high settings. Yoshida mentioned something about 3 TITAN graphic cards.

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I was actually talking about WoW and not FFXIV

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Originally Posted by Orsnoire

And yet there's similar markups all over the economy and people say nothing.

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relative to similar products though... one milk company can't have 30% markup while another has 8000%

Compared to 1.0 I don't see the reason to complain to much about what we got now. I see a lot more people compared to the ghost town, content may be a grind from time to time but which mmo isn't I am sure in 2.1 it will only get better. I can honestly say running with my friends and collecting DL gear is entertaining right now and the people who will really want to play will stay and those who don't will go and it will only get better, I am happy I pay for a sub because I am paying towards future company and the longevity of the game, unlike a F2P game where they want to make money and try to sell you stupid gems in a store. A game takes time to truly develop granted they had a lot of time in 1.0 no one know what really happened behind the scenes but I am sure with our feedback and patience they will give a lot to us in return. I can already see the return we got in 2.0 from 1.0. or even 1.18

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orsnoire

Long story short: Nikki is a hipster.

Gotcha. Nothing to see here.



Per the urban dictionary:



i.e. you hate MMOs cause it's cool to hate MMOs, and you hold the same dumbass positions about MMOs that are dictated to you by the "cool" blogs and bloggers (i.e. Cynical Brit).

I stand by my statement. You're nothing but another sheep hipster.

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Never said i hate MMOS. You have a serious comprehension problem. However, i did say that market is too saturated with themepark MMOS and that is why P2P MMOS have trouble surviving. I seriously advice you to start paying more attention towards the written words.

Wouldn't you say FFXIV has something unique in that it's released for consoles? Would that not give it a headstart on these other failed MMO's? Would that not open it up to another 70-80 million potential customers who have been MMO starved for a long time? Not to mention it's .... final fantasy.... you can't compare Tera, Rift, etc to this. It may suffer the same fate, but I doubt it. Look at FFXI. It didn't have the competition back then, but it does now, and it's still going strong.

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Originally Posted by Badm0j0T0m

No pvp yet.... no actual raids yet..... incomplete game, No thanks, just hoping for a Wildstar release!

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When they release pvp... they better, better, better balance it seperate from pve by a HUGE margin.

If they don't, no one will pvp except maybe casters and healers. DRG and MNK would be flat out of luck, you can't chase down a fricken BRD+Swiftsong who can use every ability he has while kiting you in circles with a higher movement rate. NO FRICKEN THX

The game is rigged to where your main progression line you want to aim for is Myth tomes. Whats easiest way to get them? Well, theres only really ONE efficient way to get them. AK. Nothing else gives an efficient amount of myth. They honestly should have had Palace give a half ratio like AK so peopel can do palace when they're sick of AK. Leave AK at 80/40. Give palace 50/25. It just lacks alot to do when you hit 50, aside from farm fates for secodnary classes to grab cross skills or do mind numbingly repeatitive crafting. Was ok til level 30, then I'm falling asleep trying to do it.

GW2 at least, at launch, had explore ( hard mode ) version of all of its dungeon plus WvWvW. Had lots to do.

I was around at the launch of SWTOR. There are a few things that they didn't have that doomed them.

Mainly the common features MMO's have, like a dungeon finder. Even to this day they have bad Guild support. No database. Their legacy system ends up being kind of shallow and makes their programming way to complicated for something that doesn't compliment the game very well. Took them a year and a half to get ranked PVP matches that mattered. And the reason people played, the story, was watered down compared to other BW games.

Whereas FF has a lot of those right from release. My initial estimate was about 750k subs, and we're at what? A million right now? Seems like FFXIV will end up where I thought they would. However, if they do keep up their 3 month schedule and really add to this game, then I expect over time that might move more towards a million.

It's a solid game, now they have to make it a unique one.