Gear level, the final nail in the games coffin.

To me this is less of a gearscore and more of a limitation on using DF to get into the harder dungeons. Like the ones restricting players from queuing up for some dungeons in WoW. Thats fine to me IMO.

However, giving that ability to players is retarded. When/if they implement addons they sure as shit better not allow this gearscore to be used. In fact, keep it personal so we can check how much we need to qualify. If this shit ever gets to the point where these ADD mouth breathing retards start filtering out people that meet the DF gear requirment because they want OP'd players for ez-mode 5 minute runs, im out. I dont have any tolerance for this shit anymore.

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Originally Posted by Dartanis

On another note, I laugh every time I see or hear a casual complain about an elitist. How many of you watch or have watched vids on fights or guides to an aspect of a game? What type of player do you think sits down and comes up with that stuff?

Get your gear up and the gear score will be a non factor.

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Right ... because the laws of physics wouldnt allow someone to record an encounter while commenting on the strategy unless theyre a gear snob who excludes those who arent way past the required gear score for an ezmode fight.

This is a good thing in the sense that it should reduce the amount of wipes full pug groups have due to players being lazy and not wanting have the appropriate gear for an end game dungeon. On another note, I laugh every time I see or hear a casual complain about an elitist. How many of you watch or have watched vids on fights or guides to an aspect of a game? What type of player do you think sits down and comes up with that stuff?

Get your gear up and the gear score will be a non factor.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

There is a good reason why ilvl 55 gear drops in Wanderers Palace.

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Except that, for instance, the 'ilevel 55' vermillion haubergeon tank armor that drops from palace is identical in every way stat wise to the warrior AF body piece... >.>

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Originally Posted by Oldschool

The problem is it is the pug elitists that should have to find a FC to suit their style, not the other way around. If you are so l33t YOU should be in a FC that is also l33t and everyone wear's God given gear and doesn't make mistakes. Don't bring your crap into pugs. If you pug you should accept whatever you get.

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Uhh read what I wrote again. I was agreeing with the OP that gear score ain't that great a thing. Especially since you have ilevel 55 tank armor that is identical to stats on AF armor. I didn't say I was 'leet' I was making fun of those elitists that call themselves so, and scream that other people have to have x gearscore for y content.

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

how can that piece of junk stronger than primal wep ? and primal ilvl 70 is decent atm, the mog wep is equal with the garuda one, and DL is not even the best, it is ilvl70 while the other one is ilvl80 or 90 dont remember it well

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That's what I'm saying, the DL armor is ilvl 70, yet the weapons of the same name are pretty much trash. I mean come on, the DL bill has the exact same item model as Sibold's Reach with just a few stats that are one over on it. (Which makes sense lore wise since Sibold was once a DL raider, but still) Irks me considering I've been idolizing DL since 1.x :(

Squeenix imposing a minimum gear level requirement to enter an instance using DF is not elitist or inappropriate. Gearscores become elitist when put into the players hands. As I have not gotten high enough in FFXIV to experience end game, I'll make my point using WoW as an example:

When Blizzard released the LFR system, they quickly imposed average item level requirements before you could use the LFR system on a per instance basis. Not broken, ensured that players who were unprepared would have to get to a minimum level before allowed entry.

However, players forming PUGs often would use gearscores to decide to allow someone to join or not. Many times the gearscore that they require is significantly higher than the level of the gear that drops from the instance they were forming for. Meaning that you had to already be beyond that content before you were allowed to come. THAT is where gearscore become problematic.

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Originally Posted by Mkilbride

Welp. Now, we'll see shouts "LF X class, with gear level x"

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So they should. Stop trying to do content you aren't geared for.

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Now people will be even more elitist. Christ. I saw this in another game before and it's just god awful. Elitism is already in the game, and then they make stuff to support it?

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It isn't elitist to expect people to have gear appropriate for the content they are doing. It's reasonable. There will be people who are unreasonable and ask for ilvl higher than required; they are elitist and you don't want to group with them anyway.

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It's such a shitty thing to do to a game. "You've got all LV50 gear, really good stuff, some of the best, but your GL is 65, and we only want people with GL70, so go away."

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If the content is designed around having ilvl 70 gear, then it is you who is doing the wrong thing by dragging others down doing it in 65 ilvl.

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Making Dungeons GL dependent as well. They're TRYING to kill all the fun with this game. Everytime I start to think it could be saved, Yoshi P dashes in and says "no, it can't! I'll cave to fan demand and add stuff that the VOCAL MINORITY wants!"

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The vocal minority implies that the majority wants the opposite, which isn't the case. The nonvocal majority couldn't give two shits. There are two vocal minorities; the people that are worried they aren't good enough to get into content, and the people that want a way to check they aren't getting taken for a ride when they invite someone to a group. As long as there is no ilvl check on fully preformed groups, this is a great feature. I don't want to queue into a group that has just hit 50 and not done what they SHOULD have done to gear up for the content they are doing, and be expected to carry them. It happens far too often at the moment.

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FFXI was my favorite MMORPG, and yes, I know this isn't XI, and everyone here hates XI, but I'd liked how in XI, in those end-game raids and the like, people didn't complain about your gear. They just had fun doign it, win or lose. I'd like to at least get XI's awesome community back.

Changes like this prevent a good community from forming.

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Gear checks happened all the time in FFXI; maybe you just didn't play at a level that demanded it.

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Originally Posted by TooSlick

However, players forming PUGs often would use gearscores to decide to allow someone to join or not. Many times the gearscore that they require is significantly higher than the level of the gear that drops from the instance they were forming for. Meaning that you had to already be beyond that content before you were allowed to come. THAT is where gearscore become problematic.

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This here is the main reason I dislike gearscoress in general, because as soon as there is a way to easily quantify a players gear quality this tends to follow. And it is often made worse by a general unwillingness to help those who are behind get up to speed. Which can become a really big problem once expansions start coming, as either get a perpetual gear ladder that resets each time, or an ever growing gap between the very top and average players.

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Originally Posted by Furious

It isn't elitist to expect people to have gear appropriate for the content they are doing. It's reasonable. There will be people who are unreasonable and ask for ilvl higher than required; they are elitist and you don't want to group with them anyway.

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Agreed, though it doesn't take long for the higher ilvl to become the norm, which I don't like.

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Originally Posted by Furious

If the content is designed around having ilvl 70 gear, then it is you who is doing the wrong thing by dragging others down doing it in 65 ilvl.

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So long as the same content is not where the ilvl 70 gear comes from, perfectly fine with this.

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Originally Posted by Furious

The vocal minority implies that the majority wants the opposite, which isn't the case. The nonvocal majority couldn't give two shits. There are two vocal minorities; the people that are worried they aren't good enough to get into content, and the people that want a way to check they aren't getting taken for a ride when they invite someone to a group. As long as there is no ilvl check on fully preformed groups, this is a great feature. I don't want to queue into a group that has just hit 50 and not done what they SHOULD have done to gear up for the content they are doing, and be expected to carry them. It happens far too often at the moment.

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Which is the intended purpose of an ilvl system, too bad it usually doesn't take long for it to start being used as an exclusionary tool by player bases above and beyond this. If there was a way to do this, and keep it entirely hidden from the players, might be able to avoid the exclusionary extreme.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Gear checks happened all the time in FFXI; maybe you just didn't play at a level that demanded it.

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Oh, there were plenty of them even outside of the end game. The CoP expansion on release had tons of them. Same with a few quests and missions if you didn't out level them and make them trivial.

OP go away.

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Originally Posted by Joshhoowah

And here I was thinking that gearscore limits will help prevent the more baffling elitist BS…

“What do you mean you don’t already have gear from the dungeon we’re about to run? You can’t run this dungeon with gear from this dungeon!!! #@%$ing noobs!”

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Explain how that works when players have no control of who the duty finder picks.

The way this will work is gear score will lock out an instance/dungeon if your gear score is not up to snuff, just like it does if you are level 45 and trying to enter a lvl 50 dungeon. (it really is no different)

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Originally Posted by Amyas

Except that, for instance, the 'ilevel 55' vermillion haubergeon tank armor that drops from palace is identical in every way stat wise to the warrior AF body piece... >.>

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Yea I did notice this and it was puzzling, is the only one I have seen like that, maybe its incorrect ?

If people want to be elitist who cares? They can spend as much time in the game as they want and want to play with other's who devote all their time to the game too. I mean if someone spends all day every day of the week playing the game why wouldn't they want to play with others like them? Then ask for others who are geared to the max like them? etc. If your worried you wont be able to do end game get with a good LS I'm sure there are plenty of friendly players who will help people. If you cant find one and are struggling with end game focus more on finding a friendly LS.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Yea I did notice this and it was puzzling, is the only one I have seen like that, maybe its incorrect ?

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Hmm maybe we should submit a bug report for it? At least with all the other vermillion pieces you're sacrificing a bit of determination from af for (slightly, like, 2 points) more def and a ton of parry, the body stats very well could've been fudged.

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Originally Posted by Kayo

Right ... because the laws of physics wouldnt allow someone to record an encounter while commenting on the strategy unless theyre a gear snob who excludes those who arent way past the required gear score for an ezmode fight.

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The vids that are posted as guides are normally one shot kills for w/e boss or a speed run for an instance. While gear plays a part it is not the be all end all. Aside from being able to tell what kind of gear a person is wearing from a number it can also tells me how much time they have put into their toon. If I decide to pug titan HM and come across a dps that does not have a weapon that is equal to are better then the one Ifrit drops of course I'm going to exclude him.

A continuation:
Because this usually means that even though he is attuned to Titan HM he has probably on run Ifrit HM and Garuda HM once or twice. Bottom line elitist do not want players in their runs that do not put in the time to improve their toon and game play and we do not want you in the run if you do not know the basics of your class.

The only problem I have with Gearscore is that it'll be easy to dupe. You could wear completely class irrelevant gear, and still be accepted.

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Originally Posted by Mkilbride

FFXI was my favorite MMORPG, and yes, I know this isn't XI, and everyone here hates XI, but I'd liked how in XI, in those end-game raids and the like, people didn't complain about your gear. They just had fun doign it, win or lose. I'd like to at least get XI's awesome community back.

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Are you kidding me? That game was terrible for it. People would get kicked out of grinding parties in Valkurm if their gear wasn't up to snuff, let alone higher levels. FFXI was terrible for forcing you into cookie-cutter job/subjob combo's as well and the community embraced it. Don't look at FFXI with rose-colored goggles, for the first few years of its life it was a cesspool of scum and elitism.

So op, what you are saying is that you want to go into dungeons with terrible gear and be the reason 3-7 other people are wasting their time trying to beat something rendered impossible due to your own selfish desire to be carried?

Go away.

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Originally Posted by Talligan

Are you kidding me? That game was terrible for it. People would get kicked out of grinding parties in Valkurm if their gear wasn't up to snuff, let alone higher levels. FFXI was terrible for forcing you into cookie-cutter job/subjob combo's as well and the community embraced it. Don't look at FFXI with rose-colored goggles, for the first few years of its life it was a cesspool of scum and elitism.

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Couldn't' agree more, OP isn't just wearing rose-colored googles here, he's gone and glued actual roses in front of said googles :p

Gearscore is a blight, it can and mostly will ruin mmo's. It feeds into unwanted elitism. You don't need a full set of the best gear just to do a specific instance, however people do need to take some responsibility for there gear. Logically you can't run a lvl 50 instance with lvl 20 gear.

Elitism: a method by which people attempt to make themselves seem more powerful than they really are by being arrogant and boastful. The opposite of being humbly proud of accomplishments (non-being a dick...er...non-elitism)

What do elitists do? - Elitists gather like-minded people who have the best gear available and run content with said people. They easily conquer the content because they have the best gear you can obtain. They crave challenge because the game is "too easy". They have cleared it with such ease, but will not go out of their way to invite lower geared people, or people new to the content.

Why do elitists do that? - What the elitists REALLY want is for nothing to change. They want to run with the same people time and time again to bash their head against the same content to gear other jobs/characters/classes. They do not want more challenge. They want to keep the path of least resistance. Bringing in new people to teach, or undergeared people will upset that "easy win" mode they have going for them. They will have to take time to teach people the mechanics and the how to's, while carrying the undergeared players even though they may be a skilled player who just doesn't have the gear to reach the elitists' groups expectations.

This is what it means to be elitist. Again...Not to be confused with being humbly proud of your accomplishments.

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Originally Posted by Dartanis

If I decide to pug titan HM and come across a dps that does not have a weapon that is equal to are better then the one Ifrit drops of course I'm going to exclude him.

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Ignore me, I totally misread your post, this is why I shouldn't be here until I've finished my coffee >< My apologies to you sir.

Ifrit weapons are lower level and (generally) have worse itemization than Titan. Nowhere did he say you need Titan weapon to kill Titan.

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Originally Posted by TrystWildkey

Wait, what?

This is what I'm worried about. Unless I have gear equal to or better than the gear being dropped in the content I'm trying to enter, I can't enter. That makes NO realistic sense whatsoever. "Oh, you want to fight Titan Hard Mode? Do you have a Titan weapon? No, do you have something better? No, you don't have anything better than what drops from Titan? How dare you, GTFO"

That kind of behavior is going on in FFXI right now, new content drops great weapons. All of the groups doing the new content, require that you have these weapons before you do it. Exclusionary much? I'm not interested in that kind of behavior.

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anything else you would like to complain about today or is that all ?

i just love entering a duty finder to find out that we have players with no gear on or wrong gear yet all during the beta phase complaints game to easy yet we still have people who can't figure out what gear to wear when its plainly displayed, nude tanks and healers in tank gear yes thats the game i want to play, hell yes we should be able to make sure the people have correct gear on why even bother raiding if you are too ignorant to even take the time to gear right!

As much as this sounds lame, this is actually a good thing. So many people go into AK and WP and honestly they have really crappy gear. The only thing this won't fix is people with appropriate gear, who still don't know how to play their class/job. This game, to do dps, you will need the gear, but you have to have knowledge of what to use when, to maximize damage. As a healer, I get annoyed most of the endgame is a dps race, and I can't do anything to help that. Don't say "you can heal the dds", honestly 90% of the time, if I have to heal dds, they are doing it wrong ><.

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Originally Posted by Mkilbride

FFXI was my favorite MMORPG, and yes, I know this isn't XI, and everyone here hates XI, but I'd liked how in XI, in those end-game raids and the like, people didn't complain about your gear. They just had fun doign it, win or lose. I'd like to at least get XI's awesome community back.

Changes like this prevent a good community from forming.

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so much this... there is nothing more i want in this game then a bunch of ffxi vets to play with because i know those bunch of people to be genuine. this is what happens when you try making a game too casual and mainstream. you get immaturity and assholes.

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Originally Posted by Talligan

Are you kidding me? That game was terrible for it. People would get kicked out of grinding parties in Valkurm if their gear wasn't up to snuff, let alone higher levels. FFXI was terrible for forcing you into cookie-cutter job/subjob combo's as well and the community embraced it. Don't look at FFXI with rose-colored goggles, for the first few years of its life it was a cesspool of scum and elitism.

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Sorry if you wanted to play RDM/WAR and melee things with 15% ACC in level 10 gear against level 50 enemies and make the exp/hour drop by 30-50%.

Yep think this is the last straw, this game has already managed to get a pretty horrible community. Gearscore will just give them more reason to spout elitist bull****.

Gear score is completely fine if it is internal and can't be seen by other players, the system is possibly being put in place so you can't enter level 50 raids/dungeons with gear that is 20 levels below you. If it is external though, get ready to welcome in the elitism that people are mentioning. I personally love internal gear score (being used for duty finder and things like that) and hate external gear score (something you can view while examining a character).

Final nail on the games coffin? Is this game already dead or something?

Gearscore in itself is not an issue, nor is the duty finder item level restriction. You should be barred from entering AK if you're wearing item level 30 gear, and having the game verify that you have some semblance of a reasonable gearset before queuing for certain content will help prevent clueless players from wasting other peoples' time. The real problem is idiotic players who try to impose ridiculously inflated requirements for easy stuff (full DL to run Amdapor), but that has nothing to do with gear score, and is easily solved by not running with those people, and instead running with your own friends who actually know what they're doing.

You dont understand. its to prevent people with cheap vendor items from trying to fight hard mode titan. If you have anyone that is less than ilv.70 it is IMPOSSIBLE to win, no matter how "skilled" the ilv.40 person is, their numbers just wont do it. And before anyone mentions "ilvl doesnt mean skill" i bet you for every 1 decent person with no gear, there are 1000 unskilled ungeared people. who wants to play those odds with hour long waits in the duty finder?

as someone else mentioned, the game itself is a gear check. if your tanks gear isnt good enough, he dies too fast, if the healer's gear isnt good, the tank dies. if the dps' gear isnt good, the healer runs out of mp and everyone dies. ilvl check is meant to prevent this. Sure, at level 30 you can do the dungeons in level 15-20 gear and still win, but endgame is FAR less forgiving. even in proper gear, you can be killed in 2 or 3 hits.

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Originally Posted by Dad

Gear score is completely fine if it is internal and can't be seen by other players, the system is possibly being put in place so you can't enter level 50 raids/dungeons with gear that is 20 levels below you. If it is external though, get ready to welcome in the elitism that people are mentioning. I personally love internal gear score (being used for duty finder and things like that) and hate external gear score (something you can view while examining a character).

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I completely agree with this. The real issue here is the devs will create a minimum score but players will up the score even further to what they think you should have. Unfortunately that score is usually equivalent to the gear that drops in that dungeon. Wow was really bad about this.

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Originally Posted by Sadebreth

I completely agree with this. The real issue here is the devs will create a minimum score but players will up the score even further to what they think you should have. Unfortunately that score is usually equivalent to the gear that drops in that dungeon. Wow was really bad about this.

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The good news is that it's the Duty Finder mechanism itself that gets to determine what you're allowed to enter. Player-mandated gear requirements are only an issue if you're putting together a party with randoms via /shout, which...well, don't do that.

Why is the people that actually take their time to gear up are considered "elitist"? Ofc they are going to look down on A.D.D. fueled kids who don't take the time to learn their class and gear up before trying end game content. The world isn't going to end tomorrow, take your time...

This new mentality from this generation of supposed gamers is just disturbing. It seems anything that requires effort and focus now falls in the "elitist" category. Sad really...

I do believe in helping others, and that they will not just automatically know how to master their class themselves without some help in areas. If someone is really trying, then I have all the patience in the world for them. But if they haven't put in any effort to help themselves by gearing up, practicing their skills, and doing job class research, then they can go hinder somebody elses night.

I simply would not have the patience for some adolescent that just had to hit 50 the first week of the game, and then expects to be carried the rest of the way through. I support GS restrictions all the way.

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Originally Posted by Trife

This new mentality from this generation of supposed gamers is just disturbing. It seems anything that requires effort and focus now falls in the "elitist" category. Sad really...

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This isn't what people in the thread are talking about. It is completely fine to gear your character, the issue comes about when certain gear drops in dungeons that you need to gear up, but other players might require you to already have the gear before entering the dungeon with them, which is impossible for players that have just hit that level and haven't even run the dungeon yet.

No one is saying geared players are elitist, they become elitist when they expect all other players to be on the same level as them without having experienced what they have.

EDIT: This behavior is appearing before gear scores even exist, you can see some people posting about it here:
http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...uld_be_shamed/

Its unfortunate that the peeners are being "legitimized" by the development team. They are a vocal minority, that will grow as more people think that is "the right way to play".

But if there is any silver lining. It is that we will know who the really douchey players are.

Hopefully the gear level in DF is handled in a way that is not overly restrictive, and there is still room for some amount of mix between the very well-practiced and the newer players.

Frankly, I like failing with my group and figuring out the mechanics, but this is also a regular group and I wouldn't mind covering their costs to keep that part of the game fun for me if it came to that. But I can't carry everyone on the server and I don't expect people to do it for me. It is also possible due to ease of leveling that a number of people may not understand the true gear progression requirements and just queue for things the game lets them. You can't just be naked and dodge all the mechanics in games like this. Gear is needed.

I am still pretty sure with ilvl requirements in DF, people will still avoid players barely meeting that requirement or have an undergeared mainhand. The better approach is always to find the right FC to fit your playstyle. It solves all problems (ragequitters, DF queue times, gear, etc).

FFXI didn't have elitist players who shut people out over their gear?

You must not have played the same FFXI I did. It must have been completely different game by the same name. I hope you enjoyed playing it.

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Originally Posted by Dad

This isn't what people in the thread are talking about. It is completely fine to gear your character, the issue comes about when certain gear drops in dungeons that you need to gear up, but other players might require you to already have the gear before entering the dungeon with them, which is impossible for players that have just hit that level and haven't even run the dungeon yet.

No one is saying geared players are elitist, they become elitist when they expect all other players to be on the same level as them without having experienced what they have.

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That is why you have the duty finder, your only restriction is to enter the dungeon.. which of course would be lower than the level of the rewards you earn. it would be silly to require you to have the set of gear earned from a dungeon you are farming.. because you wouldnt be farming it.

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FFXI didn't have elitist players who shut people out over their gear?
You must not have played the same FFXI I did. It must have been completely different game by the same name. I hope you enjoyed playing it.

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And you know why? if you were doing pandemonium warden, it would be impossible if half of your team was fulltiming AF1. If this were a single player final fantasy, could you beat the super high level optional boss with the same equipment you beat the storyline with? absolutely not. try it, i dare you. Its the exact same concept here.

^^^ What he said /10 char

Farm for two weeks... get tombstones of philosophy... buy your darklight gear to replace the gear you get from Wanderer's and Keep. Now you'll have gear that was very easy to attain and have an item level between 55-70.

You win, good job.