Square, Don't let the Community ruin this game

in short, people can be jerks when it comes to random groups or duty finder groups.

I have seen people yelling at the chat for small things, it's completely childish.

solution, play with your fc, ls, group of friends..etc.

I completely agree with OP. I have played A LOT of different MMO's and I enjoy seeing the content, learning the fights, and sometimes struggling with a pull. We are supposed to have a hard time if its new. If mobs don't drop anything and you are already level capped, there is no incentive whatsoever to learn the fights over. It is the players fault as well as SE's. They should make the mobs not skippable. Narrow pathways, make sides more steep to stop ppl from going around (I haven't done any dungeons here, these are all things. If a group can blast through the mobs that's one thing, but running around and skipping everything is just lame. Ive seen groups waste more time skipping stuff than it would have taken to just kill the mobs. What we need is people that are understanding that some are new. And we need people that want to enjoy the content, follow the story and just enjoy the dungeon .... I know, not going to happen. But a girl can dream :)

Just to clarify, it seems like you think of Legacy players being the ones forcing speed runs onto others, however as a legacy player myself I know of no other legacy player who prioritizes speed runs over the originally intended play. In fact I loathe the speed runs and had trouble finding one single person to fill our group of three to do the dungeons properly if even just for the first try.

Legacy or newcomers doesn't matter at all, it's the duty finder that attracts the utmost stupidity in people, since they can just do whatever they want without any problems arising for them.
People wipe once to a hard mode primal and instantly leave instead of taking one group to victory. Without penalities on leaving DF instances the game will soon be unplayable without a full static set.

I did castrum for the first time 2 nights ago and to be honest its given me an insight to what end game on FF14: ARR is all about and to be frank, i don't like! ive loved the story and i looked forward to doing castrum, but now i just despise the community. 8 people, 2 from my FC to help me, the rest randoms.....throughout the ENTIRE RUN not a single person spoke! they knew there was a noob because all dungeons tell you, but no they didnt care, i watched the first video figuring there would be the usual barrier...oh no, im stuck on my own whilst the rest of the party ran off. my FC mates had to run back to get me. WTF! these absolute selfish plebs ruined my second to last dungeon all because they wanted a few tomes a little bit quicker!!!

Why do you look like phil from Hercules?

this is an mmorpg for god sake the staple is TEAM WORK yet these speed runners completely ruined my experience, my fc said watch the vids but how can i do that if the rest of the team run off and im stuck not knowing where to go or what to do? ban all speed runs from the duty finder its not on and now i dont even want to hit end game i frankly find it pathetic that people seem in such a rush to hit a brick wall, coz lets face it what are they rushing towards? an unbeatable dungeon? good luck with that, im done with this game. im going on sabatical until the ps4 version ships im so disheartened

Maybe there should be like, a meter that fills up when you kill a mob, and all the mobs in the dungeon would equal 100%.
Basically, the group could get a loot bonus or an exp bonus or something when that bar is full.

It's a bonus, an incentive to encourage people to kill the mobs, but it's not outright forcing them too.
Allowing both a reason to and a reason not to so that players can adapt to their needs and wants and will give players more choices which is pivotal in an MMO environment, at least, as far as I'm concerned..

Please note that this only applies to AK. I hate doing CM..

I enjoy the concept of speed runs as a player. The time trial aspect of it forces everyone to get that much better and find small optimizations. Determining where to star the sac pull, figuring out the best method of downing the bosses, etc. Thing's along the lines of eating Imminent Catastrophe the first two times to get more DPS or figuring out how many Gargoyles we can AOE down at once without wiping.

Our group that normally does AK is PLD/BLM/BRD/WHM, but our PLD has limited playtime so we'll hit up the DF occasionally. We've had plenty of first time tanks tag along, and obviously we don't ask them to sac pull and help explain the fights along the way.

AK will take on average 25 minutes longer with a new tank, and that's to be expected. That's a known when joining DF, and if you're not willing to work with the people you come across you shouldn't be using DF. They won't get the full experience of AK such as dealing with bee's at the wall, but afterwards I hope that they have a better understanding of the fight moving forward for their next DF group.

Iterating and improving on runs is how I enjoy the game, and sometimes a little experimentation such as trying BLM/BLM/BRD/WHM (definitely not time effective, but LOLBRD tanking dragons is fun).

Forcing players to stay in a dungeon longer isn't going to make people nicer. Those same people that judge you for being "noob" will still be the same type of player regardless of mechanics and they'll find reasons to act the same way as they have before. There is no hotfix for poor attitude.

This is one of those times when you're like "Yeah, good title" and then you click it and then you're like "Ooh. Public schools are in trouble"

It boils down to one simple problem... People doing speedruns are using the Duty Finder and forcing their beliefs on everyone.

If people wanting to do this could get off their lazy ass and make static groups, it would be a rare issue. Hell, this is what Link Shells are designed for... So that you can have pools of people from different FCs who can organize and run endgame instances quickly, without having to worry about all the stuff that comes along with a DF. There are probably a handful of people on your servers who already have Link Shell groups put together for this.

As soon as most of the community moves to this sort of thing for all the grinding instances, the friction will ease up considerably.

A dev tracker post stated that skipping mobs in dungeons was not what they intended and they plan to do fix it. I am not sure if this would increase or decrease speed runs but I think having the ability to choose speed or normal mode in the DF would help players who do not want to run speed runs avoid having to be verbally abused by speedrunners. On the other hand, being abusive to other players, because they are not playing the way you want them to is out of line. I am legacy but I don't think its a license to bully anyone.

the fair solution is to offer separate dungeon options for people wanting story and people wanting speed(option to skip disabled in story queue)

it wouldn't be fair to tell speed runners not to use dungeon finder, when eventually those wanting speed runs will greatly outnumber new players looking to watch the story.

if the community wants actions, we need to band together and agree on an solution, instead of being divided and pretending like the problem doesn't exist, or that one side should just get over themselves and deal with it.

I like speed but want new players to enjoy the story.

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Originally Posted by eyloi

the fair solution is to offer separate dungeon options for people wanting story and people wanting speed(option to skip disabled in story queue)

it wouldn't be fair to tell speed runners not to use dungeon finder, when eventually those wanting speed runs will greatly outnumber new players looking to watch the story.

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I agree in theory but the problem then is that players looking for story parties will be waiting a long time and eventually could struggle to find a group at all. :/

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Originally Posted by eyloi

it wouldn't be fair to tell speed runners not to use dungeon finder, when eventually those wanting speed runs will greatly outnumber new players looking to watch the story.

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Don't see why not. More people wanting to do speed runs means more people you can organize with on your server to do them without needing to involve the DF at all. All it takes is a few people building linkshell communities on their server (only excluding the trolls and incompetent) to get it working. FCs already do this to some extent with their static groups, there's no reason why you cannot do the same within a Linkshell.

As more speedrunners move away from the DF, it will be easier for people who are casuals or don't mind cutscene watchers to find groups through the DF simply as part of the price you pay for using the DF.

I haven't read all 5 pages, so I apologize in advance.
However, I do feel like the OP lumps most of the Legacy Players into this speed run group, and that is a bit unfair. I know quite a few legacy players (myself included) and certainly don't have this mentality. To me, the problems stems from a player type that wants to get so much reward for doing it in as little time as possible. And they tend not to care about who they're playing with as long as they are fast too.

I'd like to suggest checking out my site in my sig. I'm 'trying' to put together a new community of players and people that simply just want to enjoy the game with other people. Whether this is through linkshells on multiple servers or just creating a solid out of game community that will help strengthen the image of the community overall.

The best is how people want you to have a Relic weapon to do the relic primals to get your relic weapon.

Priceless.

Cute. People arguing over who the DF "should be" for.

Reality check: It's for everyone. And sometimes you're going to get bad groups, or groups that want to speed run. It's a natural consequence of using such a tool. Get over it.

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Originally Posted by Cadwgan

I'm sitting here laughing at the shouts for AK "speedrun, must be geared and experienced".

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People want to speedrun this at 50 , because they want to max 300 and be done with AK so they can do other stuff , like gear and lvl other classes and trades.
Its completely acceptable to have this in shout.
If you want to play with people new to the dungeon , then use the duty finder
I main tank AK and i will shout geared tank looking for AK , and ask the people who accept my invite or if i am going to make a party. Are you at minimum Full DL. Im not going to waste my time wiping to the Demon Wall cause people are undergeared or dont know what to do.
Its nice to have a Full Relic party but not required to clear with ease.
Its to risky not doing this due to players just fate farming to 50 and then having no clue as to how to play.
So i dont know why you would be laughing at this , it completely normal and happens in every MMO

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Originally Posted by Dannythm

I completely agree with OP, content is to be enjoyed, and to be farmed over time, not in 2 weeks after launch. I don't want other players to destroy the carefully crafted game content because they are in a hurry to farm.

Speed runs should be a banneable offense unless the instance is designed to be completed in that way, or by adding a time attack mode where no rewards can be gained, and only aesthetic items can be rewarded if groups get the gold medal.

So there should be 4 modes for instances:

• Normal.
• Time attack normal.
• Hard.
• Time attack hard.

This is my opinion on this matter.

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If you do this, then ques will be much longer because instead of all players being in one que, they'll be split up.

Please are having fun doings things that I don't have fun doing. Please nerf those things so they also don't have fun.

People can be so pathetic. So quick to blame the symptoms without ever stopping to thing about the core issue lol.

Surely it's not because "content" in this games degrades to doing the same scripted event over and over and over and over and over and over again, thus placing a very strong incentive to rush through that script as fast as possible. Nope, not at all!

"Dirty speed runners, stop being such an exploiting douche bag that ruins my DF!"
"Lol, dumb noob, you first time? Kthxbye, I need to get moar tomes per hour."

All these threads focusing on speed runs. So stupid ahahaha.

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Originally Posted by ArashiDaigon

You bring up very valid points, however I'd assume that using Duty Finder would technically be a speed run, unless of course people just want to try it out and see stuff. Utilizing your Linkshell or Free Company to "learn the ropes" would be most likely a better option to learn as this will allow the community feel that so many wish to obtain from MMOs in the first place.

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I have a completely opposite outlook. Duty finder is literally built for a casual with fewer available resources to still be able to progress. If people are all hardcore and want to speed run, it should, IMO, be on them to gather like-minded friends to do that with, and not force completely random people to do what you want or GTFO.

Which is why I maintain, its should surprise no one that people who complain about newbs, force speedruns, and auto quit on dungeon runs have no friends to do them with.

Edit: To be clear I could care less if people speed run, I just think its inappropriate to DEMAND random people/duty finder people do that as well. The laughing at them or chastising them for watching CSs or whatever is really more telling about the person then anything about the mechanics of the game.

The community really wasn't any different in 1.0. There was few dungeons in 1.0, Darkhold, AV and CC. If you said no I don't want to speed run CC or AV in a pug and watched the CS you would be kicked from the group for sure.

Speed runs really aren't a new thing they were around from 1.0.

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Originally Posted by Phogg

The laughing at them or chastising them for watching CSs or whatever is really more telling about the person then anything about the mechanics of the game.

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Uhmm... no it's not.

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Originally Posted by FinalChenz

Uhmm... no it's not.

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So acting like a jerk says nothing about the person acting like a jerk for no reason? Interesting perspective. Speed run people are free to form their own non-duty finder groups with like minded people all they want. They make a choice to be a jerk to random groups of people when they don't get what they want. I'd say that speak volumes.

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Originally Posted by Phogg

So acting like a jerk says nothing about the person acting like a jerk for no reason? Interesting perspective. Speed run people are free to form their own non-duty finder groups with like minded people all they want. They make a choice to be a jerk to random groups of people when they don't get what they want. I'd say that speak volumes.

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I never said it says nothing about the person. Some people have the tolerance and patience of a saint, some don't. The truth of the matter is that the players are not the sole or most influential aspect of the scenario here.

Please refer to:

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Originally Posted by FinalChenz

People can be so pathetic. So quick to blame the symptoms without ever stopping to thing about the core issue lol.

Surely it's not because "content" in this games degrades to doing the same scripted event over and over and over and over and over and over again, thus placing a very strong incentive to rush through that script as fast as possible. Nope, not at all!

"Dirty speed runners, stop being such an exploiting douche bag that ruins my DF!"
"Lol, dumb noob, you first time? Kthxbye, I need to get moar tomes per hour."

All these threads focusing on speed runs. So stupid ahahaha.

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Now walk through this with me.

If the same event is,

A) the scenic finale(s) of a story some people actually care about (or even sometimes want to relive).

B) the way to advance in endgame by repeating it to an almost torturable extent.

This alone is awful design. But wait, there's more!
Let's throw in the wildcard that is DF and this is where we are.
Regardless of anyone's opinions, DF isn't designated for the specific use of either A or B. Unless there's some official stance I don't know about (hint: there isn't), those are just the facts.

See, there's plenty of reasons to be douche bag. Not saying it makes you right/wrong for being one; no one is right in this situation. It's just game design creating problems between players.

That's why I quoted you at first. Just to let you know you were wrong.

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Originally Posted by Telrunya

I'm the main tank. That solves a lot of problems relating to the pace of the dungeon :)

Option #2: Join a guild or get friends that want to go at your pace. What exactly do you expect Square to do about speed runs? I guess they could get rid of incentives to clear dungeons more quickly, but I feel like that would tick off a lot of people too.

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And if the DPS don't kill? You are not going to go very fast. If the healer doesn't heal? You will not last very long. You are just one component of the team and honestly you could be replaced by a Titan summon. Being tank (or healer) doesn't set the pace of anything except how rapidly an ego expands.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

The Legacy Community is colliding with the new community. Not cooperation, collision. Now I'm not saying it's everyone. It certainly is not, but it's frequent and unforgiving. I know there are nice people among legacies and jack***** among newbies, for sure.

I speak from experience. I've been a top tier raider in most games that I have played. I don't look down on newbies, and often find myself helping them, but I know that when the group is all in high end gear and some guy says "how do...?" it changes the group's whole potential.

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I believe you're mistaken here in your generalization of the "Legacy community" as the source of this problem. 1.0 was full of arrogance, no doubt. But a lot of legacy players have tossed off the air of superiority given that content has by and large been made accessible to everyone, and many accomplishments don't carry the weight they once did..

On the other hand, there's been a rapid influx of FoTM elitists who treat this game like every other MMO out there, and bring with them the same nonsense of "Gear check is required or I don't want to waste my time with you." Honestly, from my perspective, this issue really isn't a Legacy player problem at the source. Yes, it exists, but most of the epeen stroking in Revenant's Toll is from self-styled mercs who seem to believe that the only point of playing this game is to acquire as many Relic+1s in the smallest amount of time possible and continue to intentionally exclude themselves from the rest of the community until they can safely say their clique is the most unique brand of asshats that play the game.

Anyhow, that's just my 2c. Coming from a legacy player who is as repulsed by the state of PUG endgame as you appear to be. Thank god I do everything with my FC.

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Originally Posted by FinalChenz

I never said it says nothing

Regardless of anyone's opinions, DF isn't designated for the specific use of either A or B. Unless there's some official stance I don't know about (hint: there isn't), those are just the facts.

See, there's plenty of reasons to be douche bag. Not saying it makes you right/wrong for being one; no one is right in this situation. It's just game design creating problems between players.

That's why I quoted you at first. Just to let you know you were wrong.

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http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...depth_and_his/

Imo from what is said in here Duty Finder is to help beginners. People just starting out untill they finish story mode.

"Therefore, I believe the duty finder is a "necessary feature for the players new to the world of MMORPGs."
I would like new players to think "Hey, that was much easier and fun that I thought it would be" after their first party experience."

So in his own words. It is to help new people. What does the community do? Stamp new players into the ground with harassment etc .

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Originally Posted by FinalChenz

I never said it says nothing about the person. .

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You said "Um no its not", that's pretty much what you said.

That aside, make friends and make your own parties then with people doing the same thing. Don't blame duty finder or make that some excuse to be jerk to other people because you are so self centered you can't be bothered to be around random others who are just not that into you. But, that must be hard for you since you admitted you think its ok "to be a douche bag". It's really not, its a choice you make and if you don't have friends to do what you want with you, maybe its time to reconsider your decisions.

I have no problem with people doing speed runs. Go get your friends who enjoy that, group together and go for it.

But the problem is, people who speed run are screwing over new players to the dungeon by bailing or getting them killed.

It happened with my husband. He was watching a cutscene (he was one of 2 healers) and they went in, started the boss fight while he was watching the cutscene which they all could see, got him killed then SCREAMED at him for not healing. WTF people .... really?

That is why I want places with cutscenes to have the timer stopped and everyone locked in place until the cutscene is over (i.e. everyone is out of it ala Ifrit). That way the speed runners are happy they are not losing time on the timer, and those who want to enjoy the story and are there for the first time get to see about the place.

Hell SE should put an option to click on the DF for Speed Run. Then they can all be in one raid.

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Originally Posted by Sixmp

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...depth_and_his/

Imo from what is said in here Duty Finder is to help beginners. People just starting out untill they finish story mode.

"Therefore, I believe the duty finder is a "necessary feature for the players new to the world of MMORPGs."
I would like new players to think "Hey, that was much easier and fun that I thought it would be" after their first party experience."

Similar mentality is used towards pointing blame at the devs rather than the players/community for problems that start from the players/community. They will cling to their wrong perspectives to practically no ends, despite any facts presented. If Yoshi-P wants it to be for beginners (primarily) and for veterans/advanced players to form their own groups, just like the more enjoyable origins of modern-day MMOs, then that's how it's intended. These people won't believe, understand, or follow it though.

So in his own words. It is to help new people. What does the community do? Stamp new players into the ground with harassment etc .

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I wouldn't really bother. The idea that DF breaking away from things like WoWs LFD/LFR to being intended for specific people rather than "everyone" is something most current MMO players can't fathom. It won't make sense to them for obvious mouth-breather reasons.

Similar mentality is used towards pointing blame at the devs rather than the players/community for problems that start from the players/community. They will cling to their wrong perspectives to practically no ends, despite any facts presented. If Yoshi-P wants it to be for beginners (primarily) and for veterans/advanced players to form their own groups, just like the more enjoyable origins of modern-day MMOs, then that's how it's intended. These people won't believe, understand, or follow it though.

OP,
SE can't do anything about the community.
It's the players who build the community and not SE.
Not even in XI did SE build the community, the players did that all on their own.

You talk about things that happen at end game but endgame is just a symptom of a greater evil. That evil has absolutely nothing to do with whether a player is Legacy or an FFXI player or if that person comes from WoW, LoTRO, etc, etc.
The greater evil that I speak of is the idea that these people think that it's ok to throw away personal responsibility, common courtesy and communication. Somehow these people have this misguided notion that this is ok. This issue starts at level1 which is where the real problem lies. Since it starts so early on the problem becomes even more intense at endgame.

We can't expect SE to fix our community- I really can't say that enough.
If SE tries to fix our community they will make the game unlikable because the way they would deal with an issue is not the way many of us would find acceptable. Think of their dealing with our community problems the way a parent deals with a petulant child.
We have to stand our ground and create a community that encourages respect to one another as human beings. You don't have be friends with everyone but you do have to show some respect.

However, OP, there is good news. Lately, I've been seeing more and more threads about the community on both the forums and Lodestone. It means that people don't want this community to be toxic and if enough of us work at creating a good community then we will have a good community.

Just keep doing your best.

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Originally Posted by Phogg

You said "Um no its not", that's pretty much what you said.

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Really?
How about you actually read what I said.
No, how about you actually read what you said then read what I said.

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Originally Posted by Phogg

The laughing at them or chastising them for watching CSs or whatever is really more telling about the person then anything about the mechanics of the game.

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This is what I was referring to. This is what's wrong. Go back and read for better understanding.

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Originally Posted by Sixmp

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...depth_and_his/

Imo from what is said in here Duty Finder is to help beginners. People just starting out untill they finish story mode.

"Therefore, I believe the duty finder is a "necessary feature for the players new to the world of MMORPGs."
I would like new players to think "Hey, that was much easier and fun that I thought it would be" after their first party experience."

So in his own words. It is to help new people. What does the community do? Stamp new players into the ground with harassment etc .

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Same for you. I know this is only your opinion so I could stop right there but, did you actually read this whole thing?

You need to cite more then just a few lines out of context.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi-P

"MMORPGs are in a genre that has the stigma that "it’s difficult to form parties, and you can only really play it by forming parties." As a result, MMORPGs are often forced into a very niche genre. Even when looking at the global market (excluding China and Korea), this belief is very rampant. Especially because Japan has a very few locally created MMO games.
While it's impossible to do everything while solo in an MMORPG, I really wanted the average gamer to experience the fun a player can experience in an MMORPG.
(...)
I created documents and specifications and then checked what we could and could not implement. After a thorough investigation, we decided to create "FFXIV: ARR." While we considered the idea of being able to complete the main scenario without being in a party, we knew that players would then have trouble with end game content because they lack any prior party experience.
Therefore, I believe the duty finder is a "necessary feature for the players new to the world of MMORPGs."
I would like new players to think "Hey, that was much easier and fun that I thought it would be" after their first party experience."

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Could it be that he was only referring to the fact that MMO's need a way to facilitate forming (no specified kind of) groups? That it's hard to form groups in general, especially for new players to the -> genre <-
Idk, let's read to find out. Novel concept, I know:

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Originally Posted by Yoshi-P

"The main purpose of the duty finder is to "be able to experience party play immediately after logging into the game." In other words, the "matching speed" is a key factor of the feature.
Nowadays, people are generally very busy and don't have as much free time to play games as much as they used to. We would like our players to continue enjoying our MMORPG for a long time. In order to make that happen, we feel it’s important to provide an environment where the players always have something to do when they log into the game. It’s difficult for certain players to enjoy an MMORPG when it takes an hour to form a party (while there are some players that do have that free time)."

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Oh, thanks for clearing that up Yoshi! The DF is there to make grouping faster, who would have thought? What kind of groups did he specify? The kind that form quickly, so that you can play group content as soon as you log in! No more or less specifications.
Assuming anything else would be just opinion, like you said of course. Now if only more people would realize this.

But hey, it's always more easy to blame symptoms right? Every shot-sighted human tends to do just that. Nothing me or any one man could probably change.

"Divorce rates are skyrocketing!"
"Nerf woman."

The community to me seems more or less the same in 1.0 vs 2.0. In 1.0 I seen so many rage quitters on Ifrit even though everyone was on the same server, more often then not groups would end with someone calling out everyone else in the party saying they are noobs or bad at cracks ect. Now in some other mmos I played people were willing to give more then 1 try. But not in FFXIV 1.0 Ifrit someone would rage out on the whole group almost without fail about 75% of the time. There was one LS I learned to avoid because several of their members did this.

Now with 2.0 and DF people usually leave after 2-3 wipes and there is far less raging calling people names.

I have a really bad experience with groups in 1.0, but so far in 2.0 its been much better.

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Originally Posted by Phogg

... The laughing at them or chastising them for watching CSs or whatever is really more telling about the person then anything about the mechanics of the game.

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I completely agree with that.

If people don't want to be respectful when in an online setting just how do they behave irl?
Would those people behave that way irl?
Probably not, those that do are very quickly ostracized because the real world doesn't put up with that sort of crap.

And you know what, the excuse 'this is just a game/this is online' is irrelevant. By now we all know that there are actual people behind these screens/characters so there is no excuse for the unacceptable behavior.
Regardless of where you live and how old you are we were all raised to be respectful to other people. So there is really no excuse.

I would expect PUG groups to not be organized speed runs. I believe the DF is a tool meant to be used to experience the content as intended (cut-scenes and all). Just seems like common sense to me. Luckily I haven't run into any gogogogogogogo people yet. Just some PS3 players who don't attack what I'm attacking when I tank. =P

From what I understand OP wants reputation to mean something so the community may flourish and weed out the poison. I agree on that.

This is hilariously true. I joined a shout pty asking for a tank. Seeing as my main is PLD and needed some AK that day, I hopped on. They were asking in their shout for the tank to have at least DL gear. As soon as I accepted invite I told them I had very little DL gear. They literally flipped and contemplated leaving the party. Even asked me if I had ever done AK before. Mind you, they haven't seen my character yet. They control their estrogen levels and basically say "fuck it" lets go. When we load into AK they see I have Relic and a couple AF2 pieces, instantly praising me. I subsequently dropped the party because I refuse to play with people who impose their own restrictions on others. It's BS but its encouraged by this game and its vertical gear progression.

I always assumed Duty Find WAS the place to learn dungeons and I shouldn't expect to even finish it. I mean, you're being paired up with random people for random servers. It's like the lottery, sometimes you'll find an amazing group, with people that don't give up or /ragequit, other times, not so much.

I would never expect to do a speed run with people I don't know and that don't know me either. I would do it with friends/fc members, ie, people I know want the same thing and are ready/skilled enough for it.

I'm one to say I'm new to a dungeon, whether as a player or as a tank or whatnot. And 90% of the time, people react well to it. I want to learn the dungeon. Not only for myself, but so that next time I run it and have someone who doesn't know it, I can explain it well enough that we can complete it. It's my way of giving back to the community. Teaching what I've been taught. Speed runs don't allow that. It's more of a 'follow or I quit'. Well, that just a waste of time.