FATEs are killing Dungeons and team play

FATEs are terrible for the end game community.

They are mindless zergs, require no real play or skill, and teach people nothing about the role they are playing.

So when they finally hit 50 and jump into your dungeon for the first time they know nothing about how to play effectively. They ruin your experience.

FATE need to be on par with dungeon xp and item rewards (you get items from FATEs because of your seal turn ins). Dungeons need to be accessible for people to hone their group skills in a challenging setting. (Though I also believe the dungeons after Brayflox are too hard. Aurum Vale cannot be done with a DF group. This makes no sense for a dungeon you should be leveling on.)

I wouldn`t mind fates giving the exp they are giving currently, except they spawn too fast, by the time you are done with 1 FATE, others have already spawned, that allows this FATE grind to happen, so imho the nerf should be to their spawn speed(a heavy nerf in special to the BIG fates like Svara and Dark devices)

I've had my fair share of people just doing FATEs and have no idea how to play tank/healer. DPS is simple enough that they can get by but this one time in Cutter's Cry, the tank didn't even know healer gains aggro by healing and thought he wasn't supposed to aggro everything. I was like what have you done the past 35 levels, he said FATE and cause CC is optional dungeon that only requires level 35, no story progression, it sucked that run.

I have played a lot of MMO's "except for WoW"; because I was to busy playing a real challenge in comparison "EQ1". These new games all have the same types of threads about things like this, and there is always the guys that argue how "speed running" is ok when in reality it's "trying to cheat the system".

Every game same crap, there is one method of play that the rewards aren't exactly balanced right; usually over the top, and all the bads in the community defend how "ohh this is the only thing done right the rest is to low" Pretty much people are always looking for that "cheat" that is going to yield them the most for less. I don't really run FATES at all, if one pops near me I may participate, but shy away from it because of the sheer ez-mode retardation of 50 guys zerging across the land with 0 risk for all reward.

I quest and chain q dungeons with my WHM...and get better at being a WHM; not try to zerg level 50 as a WHM and then troll 3 guys by Qing a dungeon in crap loots. The normalized dungeons in any game are considered "crap", and that is simply not true they are all heavy on stats for that tier of gear for that level bracket, and if you have items from the previous tier, just like raid content...guess what, it's easier, just may be tuned that way, and definitely more fun.

I am willing to bet the FATE zerg crowd are the same people saying they are broke and that there is not enough cash going into the game, as well as saying dungeons are worthless omg...repairs etc, I make way more each run than I spend on repairs "not speed running, clearing" it's easier as well because I have better items from doing each one 8 or 9 times before I out level it, as well as go back for kicks later on "especially if the game levels you down"

How about just chill and play to have fun? No one cares how big your E-peen is because your level 50 in two or three days, only you and trying to find every possible hack and cheat missed by development to exploit once upon a time in games got you banned as well as shunned by the community, so even a new account wouldn't save you if you ever wanted to be a member of a respectable guild or online community.

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Originally Posted by Jarlax

I have played a lot of MMO's "except for WoW"; because I was to busy playing a real challenge in comparison "EQ1". These new games all have the same types of threads about things like this, and there is always the guys that argue how "speed running" is ok when in reality it's "trying to cheat the system".

*snip*

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I think you're the one that needs to calm down. You're never really going to get anywhere convincing someone that their way to play is the wrong way.

Regardless of your reasons for running dungeons, the fact is that they are slower to 50 than FATEs. This is just...true.

Also as DPS, our options for dungeons are very terrible with 40min to 1 hour long queues. I was overleveled for every single storyline dungeon that I did simply because it took too long to queue.

So while I'm happy you have the time and inclination to do dungeons, for the rest of us, FATEs are the only quick way to level. And some of us want to level quickly.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

*SNIP*

So while I'm happy you have the time and inclination to do dungeons, for the rest of us, FATEs are the only quick way to level. And some of us want to level quickly.

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By all means, play your way. The logic just doesn't make sense. You choose fates or otherwise to level quickly all to reach 50 and....grind. 12 weeks or so of AK to farm tokens, probably exclusively, or a second or third class via FATEs (grind).

By using FATEs to reach level cap in a week or two are you not setting yourself up for what you say you hate and wish to avoid? Boring repetitive grinding? Wasn't the fate zerg boring and repetitive grinding? And when you accomplish this goal and reach max level with AF2 and your relic via grinding sometime before Xmas will you grind BC? Repetitively?

Do you really think Square can possibly outpace you with end game content without adding more artificial time sinks like token farming?

So, that thread brings us some good points.

In fact dungeon runners do not have any problem with FATE runners.. till they meet.

Here is the problem.

I, we(?) don't mind about rushers, they're a part of the paying community, hence they help our game. Hail to them.

And to stay in good terms, we should manage a better way to meet each other.

On one side I purpose to render completely optional the dungeons. Put them off the story line.

On the other side, create a requirement system for dungeons like a pool of achievements you have to pass before pretending to attempt the next one.

(We can even have some role dedicated achievement like no life bar must go under 50%, no member must be hit during a certain fight, no debuff must stay longer than .. sec, et cetera. Those are just silly examples poping with not serious thinking. This completing the tutorial aspect and the whole work which has been very well done on the progression of the difficulty.)

If a FATE runner likes to do dungeons too but think about to run them lately, at 50, no problem at all, but he'll have to prove his value first, starting at the beginning like dungeons runners did.

Some will say, no way to cut the community in two.. but to say the truth, look it is already done, by itself, so manage to create a border and some rules more conducive to diplomacy.

If on the other side, FATE runners want dungeon runners "to merit" their participation in FATEs, no problem, the achievement journal can be there for that too..
.. but you'll know better than me what requirement system for FATE you should purpose.

(It can be, why not, could be fun, a kind of race between FATE, and terminating a few one within a certain time, hence forcing to join a zerg party. Like that, dungeon runners who are in the end thinking, ok, let's zerg a FATE for a while will have to start at the beginning to be able to bypass the Synch lock.

That all requirement systems will bring back some people later in lowbie zone to complete the FATE achievements as the lowbie dungeons instances for the same reason, hence that's a way to extend the lifespan of low level zones and instances)

I'm sure there is a solution somewhere and also, I apologize for the way I wrote the opening message,.. of course I was tired as you were all, with the marathon of the opening.. anyway sorry about that.

I think Deathgasm brings an interesting point. Most people that run dungeons want to run them with quality players that learned how dungeon runs work.
People that do fate grinds don't have that background of working as a proper party. I, myself, have joined fate parties where it was all DPS or mostly tanks or mix of DPS and Mages that were only using damage spells. But I learned to improve my targeting skill here.
So each brings it's own set of skills and playstyle. Problem is when people approach the other event with the same playstyle they're used to. And instead of asking how to improve and learn or be patient and teach, people just throw insults at each other. This is where the conflict comes in.

I'm a crafter though. Which seems to be mostly worthless on the whole of things. If nothing changes in the economy, I'll simply do the same as I did with other MMOs and quit.

No, terrible xp and lack of tombstones in most dungeons is killing dungeon play

Yea, I agree about DPS... I still prefer my BLM, so ill just take up crafting while I wait for pops, problem solved.

I think instead of nerfing Fate xp they should make dungeons drop more gear and bigger allagan pieces so everyone will have to make the choice quick leveling? Or quality gear, gil, and xp at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Tyvek

I think instead of nerfing Fate xp they should make dungeons drop more gear and bigger allagan pieces so everyone will have to make the choice quick leveling? Or quality gear, gil, and xp at the same time.

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A ton of things would need a boost to compare with FATE. On the other hand I can see this sort of an option being both diplomatic (everyone gets rewarded, no playstyle gets nerfed) and convenient for more casual players. Giving everyone more of everything would perhaps be better for MMO newcomers but on the other hand feel unhealthy for the long-term devotion. Too quick leveling and super-available loot will take away the feeling of accomplishment from things, but at least then people wouldn't be whining about some other things being too difficult anymore.

I do not grind FATES, I do however do them if I'm there and they get dropped on my head but I don't join a party for it. My friends and I we go through the story but we have come across some really bad players in dungeon. It goes a lot worse when they refuse to take direction. On my server in most areas the fates in any zone are hard to do unless you're right there when they drop due to the zurgs. I'm Arcanist/Summoner and there were times when some fates dropped or I just kind of mosied on over to see what it was and if I had ever done that one. We don't get an instant cast after Bio and Virus at first, it's not until higher up that we get an instacast Ruin. Our first Ruin comes with a cast time and sometimes the fates end before you can even knock out a move if the others are on a cooldown due to the zurgs.

So I could see how yes, that is bad because some people can't participate in a FATE casually if they're mainly doing story first.

Back to the dungeon aspect though. As I stated, we've had bad players join us that had absolutely no clue what to do and our other friends currently can't get in game due to the physical copies being sold out and Digital Downloads still being down. My friend is the tank, and I'm the DPS, as I stated, Arcanist/Summoner here.

My heal is no where as good as a white mage's heal. And we've had healers that didn't know what they were supposed to do, and wanted t stay not only in Cleric Stance the whole time but cast Stone and not heal.. at all. I shouldn't have to heal the whole dungeon, but I've gritted my teeth and done it while my buddy tries to hold all the hate and hoping he doesn't runn out of TP due to our healer is bad and in some cases we get not only a bad healer but a bad second DPS as well.

Think I've been through 4? dungeon story quests so far, not sure. Up to Titan now but we just did Brayflox a day or so ago. We had a bad healer and a bad secondary DPS. It's impossible for me as an Arcanist/Summoner to heal that kind of damage effectively and we wiped like 3-4 times before we gave up and just abandoned the dungeon.

Another bad healer incident we had was in Hakkue Manor, in the end boss I had to leave the healer dead, finish healing the fight and resurrect the healer after the fight was over because they weren't doing their job.

I do not know if that was due to FATE grinding but at those points, if you've played through the story and not rushed it you should at least have an idea of how to sort of play your class somewhat effectively. That might just be my opinion though.

I'm not screaming nerf the FATES or do this and do that. I'd love to see some kind of balance and less people in all of the zones (even the low level zones) to stop zurging the fates so it gives everyone a chance to at least try out the content and experience it once.

So I'm new to the game and just spent 2 days and almost 2 levels from 24 to almost 26 doing FATES because the duty finder for toto-rak hasn't found me a single group. I play a Marauder and it took about 30-45 minutes to find groups for the previous 3 dungeons for my storyline. If this keeps up and I keep getting locked out of my storyline because of the forced dungeon participation I really don't see a purpose renewing my subscription to just wait around forever being locked out of progressing because class balance for dungeons is so out of whack.

FATEs are ruining everything, they are a noobs way of grinding out levels. FATEs require no skill, its a spamfest of usualy over 20 ppl on a few mobs, AOEing mashing buttons just trying to hit something before it dies and getting a ton of EXP for really not doing much. At lower levels sure they are cool, because they are not over-crowded. At 20+ its stupid. Go to quarrymill or any other major camp, its a chocobo train and then a spam fast, rinse repeat. Where is the skill or party aspect that actually makes you work together? People having max level in a day or 2 from fate grinding is stupid, they need to fix it and make the game actually challenging and give you a sense of accomplishment.

And mind you, if they dont you will all soon be bored with your max levels and quit playing, because there is ZERO sense of accomplishment with fates. Its like FFXIV's abyssea, easy to do, quick, no skill required.

I think bad players will be bad players, regardless of FATEs. I played FFXI for 6(?) years and I can't tell you how much time I spent on forums checking out how to be better at my job. Granted, I'm a legacy player in this game, but started over so I could level with my wife (her first MMO, I'm so excited). At the moment, she's trying to learn the game with some of my input while I'm trying to re-learn the game with the new mechanics. I've only gotten as far as 16 with my GLD, but I've pretty much gone to 12 on my CNJ (need 15 for PLD) on solely FATEs.

What I'm trying to say, and probably poorly at that, is, people will find a way to level 50 as fast as they can, whether it's by FATEs or some other method found out. Other people will steer clear of FATEs and level to 50 doing it the old fashion way. Levequest, mob and dungeon grinding. Then there will be a hybrid mix. I'd like to think that is me.

I enjoy doing FATEs, and I'm willingly admitting I have no idea what they are like at later levels. I haven't been in a party outside of a duo with my wife yet. I'm sure I will soon as dungeons become available. But just because I haven't partied yet, doesn't mean I'm not on multiple sites checking out what levels I get what abilities and what the best rotation is to be the best tank I can be when the time comes. Not everyone puts that kind of research into their jobs. I'm betting the people here complaining do. This topic alone is building a community of the players that put the kind of effort that everyone in this post is looking for.

FATEs or no FATEs, people will rush to 50 with no effort or research and suck at their jobs. It's in every MMO. There are also a ton of people who will research their job and even if they don't start out great due to lack of experience, will take the criticism and advice to make themselves better. The game is so new guys...fish through those bad eggs, take it with a grain of salt....I know it's tough sometimes. It will make it all the more worthwhile when you find the good eggs and build the long lasting friendships and memories of dungeon runs, raids, dynamis....whatever games you all so fondly remember that is really making this one particular aspect chap your backside.

So Sry for triple post...character limit XD

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Originally Posted by MaxxPower12780

I love FATE's. They are one of the most enjoyable parts of the game for me. I don't know why, all of a sudden, they are being blamed for every problem this game has. If you took them out of the game completely, there would still be terrible players in your dungeons. I played WoW and FFXI, neither had FATE's, and many parties in those games lacked communication and team play.

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the problem with FATES is theyre so good theres no point in any oyther content

I was in upper la noscea grinding quest stuff for my botanist the other day. two fates were up at the same time because there were a grand total of 3 combat class characters there in the entire zone, anbd maybe 4 crafters. because everyone else is at south shroud killing coeurlclaw king again

I'm sorry, but this thread is a little ridiculous. "Killing dungeons and 'team-play'"? Are you even serious? Are you going to tell me that random dungeon queues, followed by the dungeons themselves actually take any real "team-play" to begin with? Like with most MMOs that come with dungeon queues, the dungeons- even if they feel or look interesting- are ultimately snorefests after the first time doing them.

You know what? Yeah- let's do that. Let's all sit in the main cities and run dungeon queues all day, that's more fun. Hell, let's quit this game and play WoW- that game has a TON of that kind of stuff. The OP would love it.

Seriously, I know that huge FATE-farming groups that run around steam rolling FATEs get old, quick. But, barring that, there's often times when there aren't massive FATE rollers that run around and you find yourself and a few other people fighting to complete a FATE you just ran into. You roll around out in the open world, meet people and kill stuff. You're not constantly running the same linear dungeons tanking-and-spanking your way to the same mind-numbing end every time. FATEs are far from perfect, but they're a step in the RIGHT direction as far as I'm concerned. Even if dungeon queues were quicker and yielded more in every aspect, I'd still opt for FATEs.

Guys, there can be more to MMOs than dungeon queues. Trust me, I've seen it.

All of the people rushing to the "end game" content will leave soon enough, once they hit that cap.

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Originally Posted by wingofbenu

the problem with FATES is theyre so good theres no point in any oyther content

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It's only a shortcut for those who don't want to grind quests. You actually can't skip dungeons, as merely "level 50" means nothing. You need to complete storyline to get access to AK/Primals Hard, and this imply doing quite a few dungeons.
Most of the quests are repetitive, dull and uninspiring to do especially as healing class, so trading them off to FATE is same-for-same trade. (not pointing to the fact, that grinding quests gives you more exp that grinding FATEs)

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Originally Posted by azphyxxxiate

All of the people rushing to the "end game" content will leave soon enough, once they hit that cap.

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They will hit the wall of "end-game access requirements" and will have a choice to either leave or go back and redo all that they missed. Many choose second route still.

Please do not take dungeons out of the main story!

This design is the only defense for forcing people to learn how to play in a dungeon. Otherwise you're going to have mass produced FATE zergers entering your level 50 end-game content feeling all great about themselves but knows nothing about team play.

Dungeons were designed carefully to introduce people to all sorts of encounter mechanics. It's fine. People who choose to grind FATEs for a fast 50 did it by choice. They simply have to go through the main quest now. It's just like people who grind dungeons and the main quest did it by choice, and at 50 now they have to grind FATEs.

I remember the design of this game was said to revolve around "a little of everything", not "pick and choose what you want".

I have to totally agree with you on this one, fates need to be nerfed and not spawn as often, and dungeons need to give better exp.

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Originally Posted by Felessan

It's only a shortcut for those who don't want to grind quests. You actually can't skip dungeons, as merely "level 50" means nothing. You need to complete storyline to get access to AK/Primals Hard, and this imply doing quite a few dungeons.
Most of the quests are repetitive, dull and uninspiring to do especially as healing class, so trading them off to FATE is same-for-same trade. (not pointing to the fact, that grinding quests gives you more exp that grinding FATEs)


They will hit the wall of "end-game access requirements" and will have a choice to either leave or go back and redo all that they missed. Many choose second route still.

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My point is that once you finish all the quests, there is little to no point to anything but FATEs.

Entire zones are already ghost towns because they were for quest areas and they dont have optimal FATE grinding.

I can't see the point of forcing people to do dungeon.

I do my main quest up to 47 with dungeon run in between, and farm FATE for that last 3 level. So I can say this, no matter how you fix FATE, people will find a way around to hit lvl cap faster. Even if you nerf it and force them to do dungeon, they will try to speed run it like AK.

Also, my 3 lvl grinding in FATE are in fact more fun than my 47 lvl of dungeon and questing. FATE actually having you moving around and grind different mob with a big group of "fail" player to laugh at, while dungeon force you to grind that 3 mobs repeatedly until you face the unchanging-in-mechanic boss.

This is off topic but, coming from zfz signature.

日本語勉強中です、失礼なところを申し訳ありませんでした！ -> should be nihongo wo benkyouchuu nanode, shitsureinakoto ga arimasunara moshiwakegozaimasen.

If they do nerf FATES you're gonna be deeply regretting that you asked them to when you're trying to level up alternate classes and you have no quests to do. What they need to do is take dungeons out of the main story so people can progress without having to wait up to several hours trying to get into a dungeon. And to counteract the players with no dungeon experience getting into high level dungeons and annoying everyone, making all three or at least one of the first 3 dungeons be requirements for getting access to high level instances

The first three dungeons is a joke in terms of difficulty. If dungeons are taken out of the story and replaced with fewer dungeons, then at least the likes of Sunken Temple should be required.

And to be honest, while many veteran MMO players can perform very well after just one or two dungeon runs, the real beginners who may be coming into MMORPGs for the first time, will learn too little in just the 3 beginner dungeons to be considered ready for level 50 content. If people seriously want it down to 3, I'd probably recommend Brayflox, Sunken Temple, and then probably Stone Vigil, as I am still to see content after that.

what if we don't want to play dungeons?

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Originally Posted by Zsavooz

what if we don't want to play dungeons?

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What if I don't want to do dungeons in a RPG based on Dungeons and Dragons?
What if I don't want to drive a car in Need for Speed?
What if I don't want to shoot anyone in Call of Duty?

The simplest solution is play different games, but if I still wanted the best loot, fastest car, and best weapons, I guess I would have to eventually. Or in the case of FFXIV do crafts, or chase FATEs in whites forever?

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Originally Posted by Zsavooz

what if we don't want to play dungeons?

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What if I wouldn't mind getting more than a bronze or silver in a FATE due to blizzard 2 spammers and massive fate trains? Seriously I am sick of seeing massive trains of people bouncing from fate to fate, especially in Coerthas it's absurd. Hell I was tanking a named fate in ogre's belly for at least 30 seconds before a fate train turned up then it died within 20 seconds and I get a silver? Something needs to be done about the rest of the games content, because as much as I hate fate trains it is the only "viable" method to level come a certain point.

FATES do not need to be nerfed. Dungeons could certainly use a buff, but once you complete the main story, and all the quest, what are you supposed to do? We need to bring other methods of leveling up the same level of FATES (or at least close) to make it equally appealing. Nerfing FATES will create a bigger and harder to slove problem. So maybe we should increase leve allowances, buff quest XP, buff dungeon XP and keep FATES as they are. It isn't a perfect solution, but I don't think nerfing FATEs will address the bigger problem, that other forms of leveling are unappealing.

The bigger problem is that everyone is being bribed by large sums of experience in such large quantities that they completely ignore every feature of the game.

FATE grind an hour for 200k experience or have fun doing leves and dungeons for 30k an hour?

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What if I don't want to do dungeons in a RPG based on Dungeons and Dragons?
What if I don't want to drive a car in Need for Speed?
What if I don't want to shoot anyone in Call of Duty?

The simplest solution is play different games, but if I still wanted the best loot, fastest car, and best weapons, I guess I would have to eventually. Or in the case of FFXIV do crafts, or chase FATEs in whites forever?

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Do not force other people into your way of playing game, everyone has a different goal and different way to enjoy a game.

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Originally Posted by MLew0032

The bigger problem is that everyone is being bribed by large sums of experience in such large quantities that they completely ignore every feature of the game.

FATE grind an hour for 200k experience or have fun doing leves and dungeons for 30k an hour?

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This.

sure, I find crafting and dungeons and leves more interesting. But my options dfor getting my bard to 50 are wasting leves I could use on crafting, or go murder the couerlclaw king for a 6th of a level in about 3 minutes of work

No do not nerf FATEs. Fates are fun. Fates have lead me to meeting great groups of people on Mateus. So much so that one even gave me 5,700 gil to start my Free Company. You know that fate Lazy for You in East Shroud? It's harder than the early dungeons and requires an 8 man party if you want to beat it in good time (still takes like 15-25 min depending on skill of player). It's great for convo starter, gives great exp (15K) for lower level people, and is just fun.

I still do other stuff to break up the monotony, like helping guild members with dungeons, leves, my class quests, or just talking and joking around. But Fates are great for leveling up other classes.
Do not change it.

Something a lot of people overlook is that fates, besides them being grindfests, actually promote kind of a healthy social environment. While fate grinding i can group up with a wide variety of people and classes, no need for the perfect group or near exact level matches, just 8 players who are in the same area. All people are from the same server and there is enough downtime in between fates to actually chat and joke around with the people, making contacts outside of your existing friends and fc members. Sadly, this reminds me much more of a real dungeon experience than what the duty finder offers. Being thrown in with 3 people i will never ever see again, even if i would really like to, only promotes selfishness and anti-social behaviour.

That said. i would love to have more options i can choose from to level a second class. Currently i'm stuck with fate grinding and would not mind to have valid alternatives, to break up the monotony once in a while.

I FATE spammed my acn to 50, didn't affect me learning the class in any way. But I do understand where you coming from, the thing is learning your class takes also, reading your abilities, reading your traits, figuring out what combos, etc. A lot of people don't take the time to do this, and spam through the content that actually tries to teach them. I had my blm 50 from 1.0, but leveling up sch 1-50 through FATES was the fastest way to go, but all fates teach you I'll admit are tag spam and aoe spam. Luckily I was doing ACN for SCH had no choice really but to get down to the nitty gritty and learn the class. In dungeons, even WP and AK, I see aoe spammers still, if your dps is good enough to kill it fine, but no one wants to see your stupid archer running around failing at kiting looking like a chicken, just attack the mob the tank is attacking, you'll kill it faster single targeting anyway.

Lowering the EXP reward for FATEs is a poor fix. They need to be balanced so they are interesting content. One of the main reason people flood towards them is that they are so brainless, so risk/reward is totally busted.