FFXIV Bahamut vs. WoW Deathwing - Who Wins?

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Originally Posted by Platinumstorm

Your insanely large 1,280px × 720px signature is really annoying when it loads.

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Really? Thanks for telling me!


Memo to me: Make banner larger. :P

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Originally Posted by fusional

just deathwing, eh? seems like selective bias.

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Not at all, although given one of your arguments later I can see why you'd say that. But we'll get to that.

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Originally Posted by fusional

this is exaggeration. first of all, we have to understand and accept that bahamut is being used as a convenient excuse for redesigning the game world, and he serves that function admirably.

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Were this a thread discussing a real company called Square Enix, with a real Producer/Director Naoki Yoshida's whom made a real decision to scrap the (then) existing version of FFXIV and rebuild it from the ground up, including the real directive of completely re-designing the game's zones/areas, then sure, we would have to "understand and accept that".

However, given that this is a hypothetical discussion about two imaginary dragons, from two imaginary worlds in two fantasy online games and the imaginary destruction wrought upon those imaginary worlds by those imaginary dragons, no... we don't have to "understand and accept that" at all, because it's irrelevant in the context of the subject.

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Originally Posted by fusional

the dev team have even specifically commented that he mostly only messed up mor dhona and coerthas (though not *only* those areas- they just saw the worst of it).

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His megaflare only mostly messed up those areas. Everything else he did affected everything/everywhere else.

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Originally Posted by fusional

other places were completely untouched. all of thanalan, for example. other areas which were changed without being attacked were explained by the gravity from Dalamud's descent reshaping the land. while you could attribute this to bahamut, i don't think that's very fair considering it's entirely incidental.

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So, the fiery shards of Dalamud that Bahamut launched across all the areas when he decided to turn his one-time prison into a gigantic grenade were "gravity"?

The swarms of fireballs he trailed in his wake that ultimately slammed into and destroyed many other areas as well... those were "gravity"?

If the "gravity" of Dalamud was the reason for the upheaval of all those areas, then that should have taken place long before Bahamut's attack. Yet, all that devastation only took place during his attack.

I think you've got your lore confused. Or you're just making stuff up.

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Originally Posted by fusional

and let's go back to your 2.5 years comment about deathwing, which is accurate enough. but look at the state of ARR- it appears just 5 years after the events ending 1.0. you're telling me he succeeded in destroying the world, and we rebuilt it all in just 5 years? i'm not buying it.

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Remember that part in my post, near the very beginning, where I mention how I'm not even going to discuss the idea of "destroying the world", since everyone seems to have their own definition of what that is? You know, the part you deliberately omitted from your response, and clearly ignored as well?

Here, I'll quote it for you...

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Part of the issue people seem to be dealing with is each one's personal definition of "destroying the world". So, I won't even go there. I'll just speak to the overall amount of destruction each creates, and the fallout from it.

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That part. Yeah, see, that paragraph there puts my entire post into a very specific context; that context not being "Bahamut or Deathwing destroying their respective worlds".

I very specifically state that I'm going based on the amount of overall damage/destruction each one inflicts. You ignored that part as well, apparently.

When I type things in my posts, I do so for a reason. That reason is to convey an idea, to support that idea, or to otherwise put other things I say into a particular context. Since context matters, if you're going to take the time to respond to me, please at least have the courtesy of not selectively ignoring parts of it, okay? Appreciate it.

That said, they didn't "rebuild the world", they rebuilt their society and their lives, and their homes, out of the rubble of what Bahamut left in his wake. In watching videos and viewing screenshots, Aetheryte camps are clearly rebuilt and/or completely expanded on, resembling villages more than the small little campsites they used to. Significant changes and improvements have been made to the cities (though we've only seen Gridania so far, with small snippets of the others). All of this is built within and around the rubble left behind by Bahamut's attack.

So, yes, they have had to rebuild their world to a very large degree, much like people have to do in the wake of any major disaster.

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Originally Posted by fusional

pretty sure devs commented on this, too- only players participating in the battles ending 1.0 were teleported away into the future. other people who were far away from the attacks, in lands which were untouched, were subsequently untouched themselves. not only is this evident through the simple fact that the chocobos all seem alive and well, but in ARR there will be a distinction between legacy and non-legacy players, where the legacy players will have slightly different dialogue and story than non-legacy, referencing the events ending 1.0. non-legacy players will get something a little different, and a little different flavor text from NPCs.

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Irrelevant. Even if all people weren't teleported to the future, there were still plenty others in or around the areas of attack. If they weren't hit directly by the attacks, they certainly were affected by collateral damage or other fallout. I don't think one could, or would, seriously argue that somehow all the damage happened only in the exact spot that each piece of Dalamud, or Bahamut's rain of fire touched the ground. But maybe I'm wrong and some people would try to argue that.

We don't know the answer to this. We don't know how many others were affected, killed, displaced, etc. It remains to be seen, like I said before.

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Originally Posted by fusional

i think it's easy enough to assume that new non-legacy adventurers aren't 5 years old, so for them to exist at an adult age 5 years after Dalamud's descent, but be completely unaffected and uninvolved with that story arc- this seems to only underscore the implication that they were simply in different parts of the world at the time of those events, and were thus unaffected.

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Ridiculous argument.

When Hurricane Katrina slammed into Louisiana, overwhelmed a levy and flooded/destroyed New Orleans, not everyone living in or around the area was killed. They were still very much seriously affected by it. I lived through Hurricane Andrew and you are not going to tell me that thousands of people who survived through that were not seriously affected - for *years* afterward.

Even if they survived Bahamut's attack, the people would still have been greatly affected/displaced by the events. Hence, they spent 5 years rebuilding to get them to where things are when 1.0 players return.

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Originally Posted by fusional

but that would ruin immersion, wouldn't it?

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It would, if that were actually what I was arguing, and not just some strawman you conjured up.

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Originally Posted by fusional

and here we disagree on one point, in spite of agreeing on another. bahamut does seem to be the more powerful of the two, and many have covered perfectly valid points underlining why- but as has been pointed out several times now, bahamut also failed to destroy the world

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Again, you ignore a very key part of my post. Please go back and read it again.

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Originally Posted by fusional

and didn't even really destroy that much (again, unless you also credit Dalamud's descent with changing the landscape, but wouldn't that credit better belong to Darnus?).

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Bahamut destroyed/affected everything. I realize you're trying to split hairs here and draw arbitrary differences between the events, but you're just grasping at straws. Van Darnus brought Dalamud down, but Bahamut wrought all the destruction that took place - in 3 different ways. You're probably scoffing right now, so I'll explain.

1. Dalamud was created as a prison. Not a weapon. Bahamut's actions - at 3:15 of the End of An Era video - is what turns it into hundreds/thousands of pieces of flaming shrapnel, which then launch down to the world below (in all directions) and begin the onslought. Bahamut does that. Dalamud does not just explode on its own. Prior to that, Dalamud had merely weakened enough for Bahamut to emerge in the first place and would have otherwise fallen to the ground.

2. From 3:33, all the way up to about 4:10 when he's distracted by Louisoux, Bahamut is soaring all over the place, passing over all the cities, and surely all the areas around and in-between. In his wake is a rain of fire which is raining down and causing further destruction, as shown in scenes like his fly-over of Limsa. He's causing that.

3. His megaflare which, as you state, certainly affected Mor Dhona and Coerthas, but likely had bleed-over into surrounding areas as well.

So, no... the damage wrought by Bahamut was not "incidental". It was quite deliberate and direct.

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Originally Posted by fusional

yes, some areas of azeroth were unaffected, but most of those were expansion areas far removed from deathwing's immediate reach. the entire vanilla azeroth was changed.

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And here again you're grasping at straws, using real-life details to explain away lore-related events. Whether they were expansion areas or not has nothing to do with it. All the regions, except Outlands, are part of Azeroth. They are all part of that world. They were all subject to attack and destruction by Deathwing. He failed to ravage them all because he failed to ravage them all. Nevermind "destroying" the entire world, he failed to even scratch a large portion of it.

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Originally Posted by fusional

now, that said, it definitely took him a lot longer to accomplish that in relation to what bahamut did in a few seconds- so again, the scales seem to obviously tip in bahamut's favor here. so why go to so much trouble to disagree with certain points when i agree with the end assessment?

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Because this is a discussion forum and we're having a discussion? Because this thread doesn't rely on your agreement or disagreement of the topic at hand? Because the thread can continue and people can continue to discuss and debate it whether you're involved in it or not? Because it wasn't created for your sole benefit?

Take your pick.

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Originally Posted by fusional

because the avenues people take in arriving to that assessment are often biased and inaccurate. and in the end, what's the point of a discussion board if people aren't free to disagree with particulars, whether they agree overall or not? because then it's just a bunch of people talking for the sake of talking, saying whatever they want without considering anything else, and that defeats the purpose of the discussion part of the forum, no?

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What are you even going on about at this point? Seriously. It's like you wandered off into some completely different topic... Are you replying to someone else's post? You certainly aren't responding to anything I said in mine.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

What are you even going on about at this point? Seriously. It's like you wandered off into some completely different topic... Are you replying to someone else's post? You certainly aren't responding to anything I said in mine.

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At this point, fusional is simply trying to justify turning a fun conversation about two fictional dragons into some sort of debate. Just arguing for the sake of arguing. Strange thing is, they've already admitted to not even liking the existene of this thread. Why are they still here???

Well, whatever. lol In my opinion, Bahamut easily curbstomps Deathwing. But I wonder how he'd fare against Knights of the Round...?


Thoughts, anyone?

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

It's okay!

It's from Jurassic Park. All the Dinosaurs were female so they couldn't breed but "found a way" to breed anyway. XD

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The female dinosaurs were bio-engineered with DNA from both amphibians and reptiles. Quite frankly, the female DNA from the amphibians had mutated so the dinosaurs changed sex. Fish can do the same, such as clownfish. For all we know from Finding Nemo, once Marlin's significant other died (if the lead female in a school of fish dies, a male can change its sex to female and take over that role that's left open), he could have changed into a female, so that's why he was PMSing throughout the movie about finding his son, Nemo.

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

At this point, fusional is simply trying to justify turning a fun conversation about two fictional dragons into some sort of debate. Just arguing for the sake of arguing. Strange thing is, they've already admitted to not even liking the existene of this thread. Why are they still here???

Well, whatever. lol In my opinion, Bahamut easily curbstomps Deathwing. But I wonder how he'd fare against Knights of the Round...?


Thoughts, anyone?

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Brave Sir Robin might be able to, he nearly took on the Dragon of Angnor, and the Vicious Chicken of Bristol.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Brave Sir Robin might be able to, he nearly took on the Dragon of Angnor, and the Vicious Chicken of Bristol.

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However, he was no match for the "Old man from scene 24".

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

The female dinosaurs were bio-engineered with DNA from both amphibians and reptiles. Quite frankly, the female DNA from the amphibians had mutated so the dinosaurs changed sex. Fish can do the same, such as clownfish. For all we know from Finding Nemo, once Marlin's significant other died (if the lead female in a school of fish dies, a male can change its sex to female and take over that role that's left open), he could have changed into a female, so that's why he was PMSing throughout the movie about finding his son, Nemo.

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Where Jurassic Park fails is that fish and frogs use external reproduction with shell-free eggs. It's a cool movie and I like it but that really could never happen. xD

One thing that was cool about Bahamut is that they tried to do the whole, people power, hope love and rainbows conquer all. That would usually own some kid show anime villain. But Bahamut wouldn't have any of that.

Fernehalwes: "but not even the prayers of a thousand thousand (that’s one million) souls can contain Bahamut’s rage, and so the Archon, Louisoix, sends the party into a timeless rift, where they wait until the realm is reborn."

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post898626

Not kept up with WoW in recent years, so no idea who Deathwing is, but... Bahamut vs Shinryu?

There's a fight I'd like to see (in my swimsuit).

and you guys know what happen when bahamunt's killed the hole aliance he make a chain4 w/ the 3 leaders and lvl up
from insane -> to Ridiculos

and chain 4 cos we dont give exp to chain only cid and the 3 leaders can give him some exp

WoW just lost another 1.3 million subs in the past 3 months, so I guess Bahamut wins.

My 2-cents:
Both Deathwing's and Bahamut's appearence and destruction of the land serve more as Apocalypse events, however, in Eorzea I'd say the fast and highly violent nature attributed to Bahamut's power plus the fact that even the Gods were unable to help the people, is enough to say that Bahamut did a better job overall.

Deathwing was given two years or more to "destroy the world" and ended up just shifting things around and killing a lot of people, and most just sat around with his thumb up his ass. I also want to point out that Deathwing is a dragon smaller than Midgardsormr.

Bahamut managed to kill a significant portion of the Eorzean populace, tear up the overall majority of the land (weather through use of Dalamud as a grenade as someone eloquently put it, thousands of small energy explosions, and of course, Megaflare. Unlike Deathwing, Bahamut had maybe two minutes (from what we can tell) to get in as much damage as possible before mysteriously vanishing for yet known reasons. Also note that he's around a fourth of the size of Dalamud, which was considered a lesser moon, making him quite large. Also, unlike Deathwing, Bahamut had to be sent out into orbit to prevent his presence alone from screwing up the planet - you know, cause Primals eat Aether... that alone could kill the planet, and I don't believe Deathwing can kill anything just from being there =P

Point is, the is kinda a moot argument, but by going over the most basic information as comparison, Bahamut wins simply because he did just as much, if not more damage in a fraction of a fraction of the time that Deathwing did.

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Originally Posted by Kavaskous

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Deathwing as is in the Cata expansion in power would match Ifrit, Titan put together and maybe Garuda. That would be the extent of his power, if not a little over. All the primals combined, don't stack up to a fraction of Bahamut's power. If all the primals are too weak against Bahamut, yet there combined power would over shadow Deathwing. I don't think there is anything to debate here.

I found this!

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...tpanel_021.jpg

Still looking for the same for Bahamut! One of the many key's on Dalmund, it alone is bigger then Deathwing. If that thing fell on DW it would 1 shot kill him. There are dozen's seen in the video, yet when Bahamut stretches his wing's they seem to be from tip to tip as wide as Dalmund.

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/...Gr/Capture.jpg

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Originally Posted by Twiddle

Deathwing as is in the Cata expansion in power would match Ifrit, Titan put together and maybe Garuda. That would be the extent of his power, if not a little over. All the primals combined, don't stack up to a fraction of Bahamut's power. If all the primals are too weak against Bahamut, yet there combined power would over shadow Deathwing. I don't think there is anything to debate here.

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Hell, twelve GODS can't keep Bahamut contained.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

WoW just lost another 1.3 million subs in the past 3 months, so I guess Bahamut wins.

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:random person sees Bahamut wrecking shop:

Hmm, I'd like to subscribe to that dragon's newsletter.

This issue in Home and Garden: PRIMORDIAL DESTRUCTION! Spruce up your place with the hot new take on Japanese aesthetic.

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Originally Posted by Kavaskous

My 2-cents:
Both Deathwing's and Bahamut's appearence and destruction of the land serve more as Apocalypse events, however, in Eorzea I'd say the fast and highly violent nature attributed to Bahamut's power plus the fact that even the Gods were unable to help the people, is enough to say that Bahamut did a better job overall.

Deathwing was given two years or more to "destroy the world" and ended up just shifting things around and killing a lot of people, and most just sat around with his thumb up his ass. I also want to point out that Deathwing is a dragon smaller than Midgardsormr.

Bahamut managed to kill a significant portion of the Eorzean populace, tear up the overall majority of the land (weather through use of Dalamud as a grenade as someone eloquently put it, thousands of small energy explosions, and of course, Megaflare. Unlike Deathwing, Bahamut had maybe two minutes (from what we can tell) to get in as much damage as possible before mysteriously vanishing for yet known reasons. Also note that he's around a fourth of the size of Dalamud, which was considered a lesser moon, making him quite large. Also, unlike Deathwing, Bahamut had to be sent out into orbit to prevent his presence alone from screwing up the planet - you know, cause Primals eat Aether... that alone could kill the planet, and I don't believe Deathwing can kill anything just from being there =P

Point is, the is kinda a moot argument, but by going over the most basic information as comparison, Bahamut wins simply because he did just as much, if not more damage in a fraction of a fraction of the time that Deathwing did.

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https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...ZzDFCHG2KQrROw

Pretty much everything I'd been saying all along. I mean, DW gets out and he burns a few places, causes some earthquakes, and makes a big hole in the ocean. Bahamut gets out, he torches a significant amount of the planet and kills a huge amount of it's people, all while giving the "all powerful" gods of the planet the proverbial finger. We couldn't even save ourselves, someone had to teleport us into the freakin FUTURE to protect our lives. This contest is over. NEXT!

Sorry guys but bahamut has been the king and blew shit up since 1987.

Im done here.

Walks away

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Originally Posted by modokibunny

Sorry guys but bahamut has been the king and blew shit up since 1987.

Im done here.

Walks away

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Well if you want to be technical...;)

Bahamut was first coined in Arabian mythology, though he looked a lot different back then. This was before dragons were cool.

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Originally Posted by Twiddle

I found this!


Still looking for the same for Bahamut! One of the many key's on Dalmund, it alone is bigger then Deathwing. If that thing fell on DW it would 1 shot kill him. There are dozen's seen in the video, yet when Bahamut stretches his wing's they seem to be from tip to tip as wide as Dalmund.

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/...Gr/Capture.jpg

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I agree completely. By a mathematical standpoint let's do some measuring.

Okay, so using http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CLSnc-vB0Uso using this video as reference to in-game size you could estimate that, by referencing the distance to the ground to Deathwing is to be around 50 meters off of the ground; this can be confirmed by this article's mentioning of the tower they're in and about the view, which look about right... [Reference Image]

Now, if you compare the distance vertically to the length of his entire body, they appear to be the same give or take ten meters. Being generous and giving him 20 meters, we have one dimension down. Now for the sake of making this short and less painful, let's also consider his wingspan to be about 100 meters, and then just multiply it and ignore the empty space. Again, this is to be nice in favor of the "scary" Deathwing. Now, let's give him a thickness of say... why not, ten meters.

Okay, so we have dimensions, let's calculate volume:
70*100*10 = 70,000 m³

Let's then assign both Dragons an equal density in comparison to mass, let's use the element Pb (Lead) which has a density of 11,300 kg / m³

(11,300 kg / m³)* 70,000 m³ = 791,000,000 kg = Deathwing weighs no more than 791,000 Metric Tons.

Bahamut emerged out of a "lesser moon" - if we assume the lesser moon is roughly the size of the moon Miranda, then you can estimate the a 1m thick skin flying off in force. size-comparison picture. We can also guess his size based on this and the fact that he looks a few kilometers in length and possibly have a wingspan of several kilometers as well.

If we severly simplify Bahamut's size to say (2 km * 1 km * 1 km) which in lead would make him weigh:
(2 km³ * 1.0×10e+10) = (2,000,000,000 m³ * 11300) = 2.26e+13 =
2.26×10e+10 Metric Tons


Bahamut weighs roughly (22,600,000,000 / 791,000) = 28,571 times heavier than Deathwing and a LOT bigger - there is ZERO contest here seeing as he couds piss out a deathwing.

(3,964,776.51 km² / .001) * 1m = 3,964,776,510 m³

(3,964,776,510 m³ * 11,300kg = 4.4801975e+13 kg

Now let's consider that if Hydaelyn is nything like Earth, then the Atmosphere extends to the Kármán line which is roughly 62 miles, or close to 100,000 meters high. If Dalamud is half that distance at 50,000 meters then we have a distance to measure speed. Examining the video, you could guess that it takes roughly 3~5 seconds tops for most of the pieces in the area of Eorzea to be hit. Let's say it takes 5 seconds. Let's then take say...

a piece that is .0001% hitting Deathwing... Let's do it in Newtons then compare that to a Nuclear blast.

(50,000 m / 5 s) / (4.4801975e+13 kg * .000001) = (44801975 kg * 50,000 m / s) = 224,009,875,000 N

The the original fission bombs used in WWII only produced around 300,000 N which means .0001% of a piece of Dalamud hitting -should- technically hit with a force of 746,699 Fission Bombs. Of course this is wrong because there's still an Eorzea, so he's been dumbed down quite a bit. I also want to point out that Dalamud appears to be even smaller than Dione, and yet even if you reduce these numbers by half, the numbers are still shocking.

I might even have made some mistake, but I'm tired as shit and this is some quick calculations. Even if you significantly dumb down the numbers, you still have a power vacuum Deathwing is too feeble to even try to fill.

ALSO! The key that falls from Dalamud; if it is 500m high, 30 m wide, and 10 m thick (going low) it's volume is 150,000 m³, it's density in Titanium is 675,000,000 kg, and calculate gravity (9.78033 m/s2) you get 33,075,000 N I believe. Hm... some things not lining up with the video... This video defies Physics! Oh wait... this is Final Fantasy... Even if I fucked up, the numbers will still be hella large.

tl:tr

Bahamut is 28,000 times heavier than Deathwing in lead - and 100,000th of Dalamud hitting Deathwing could carry enough force to effectively nuke him out of existence - Discussion over.

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Originally Posted by Kavaskous

Math and Physics. With a touch of Chemistry.

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Calculate the mass of Dalamud before Bahamut escaped. Use this to calculate the influence Dalamud had on Eorzean tides at perigee just before Bahamut was released, using the Earth and Moon as references. Finally, calculate the average change in tidal levels around Limsa Lominsa due to Dalamud no longer orbiting Eorzea.

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Originally Posted by Aish

Calculate the mass of Dalamud before Bahamut escaped. Use this to calculate the influence Dalamud had on Eorzean tides at perigee just before Bahamut was released, using the Earth and Moon as references. Finally, calculate the average change in tidal levels around Limsa Lominsa due to Dalamud no longer orbiting Eorzea.

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I accidentally hit backspace and went back a page losing all of my hard work, so I will say this in response: The most that would have happened when Dalamud was close with Bahamut inside, is maybe make the sea level rise by a malm or two... however, now that neither are in the sky, the sea level has likely gone down by...centimeters at best =/

Haha great post!
Bahamut is taking it for sure, Deathwing is such a fail imo, no matter what you compare it looks like bahamut was a real challenge to put some thought in unlike Deathwing which is actually a normal dragon...

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Originally Posted by Kavaskous

My 2-cents:
Both Deathwing's and Bahamut's appearence and destruction of the land serve more as Apocalypse events, however, in Eorzea I'd say the fast and highly violent nature attributed to Bahamut's power plus the fact that even the Gods were unable to help the people, is enough to say that Bahamut did a better job overall.

Deathwing was given two years or more to "destroy the world" and ended up just shifting things around and killing a lot of people, and most just sat around with his thumb up his ass. I also want to point out that Deathwing is a dragon smaller than Midgardsormr.

Bahamut managed to kill a significant portion of the Eorzean populace, tear up the overall majority of the land (weather through use of Dalamud as a grenade as someone eloquently put it, thousands of small energy explosions, and of course, Megaflare. Unlike Deathwing, Bahamut had maybe two minutes (from what we can tell) to get in as much damage as possible before mysteriously vanishing for yet known reasons. Also note that he's around a fourth of the size of Dalamud, which was considered a lesser moon, making him quite large. Also, unlike Deathwing, Bahamut had to be sent out into orbit to prevent his presence alone from screwing up the planet - you know, cause Primals eat Aether... that alone could kill the planet, and I don't believe Deathwing can kill anything just from being there =P

Point is, the is kinda a moot argument, but by going over the most basic information as comparison, Bahamut wins simply because he did just as much, if not more damage in a fraction of a fraction of the time that Deathwing did.

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Excellent point! I'd forgotten about that part.

You know something is trouble when, even in a passive state, just its mere presence is enough to bring an eventual end to the world and life upon it.

Although, that makes me wonder if/how his draw on the Aether is being controlled while he's imprisoned (again, going on what we know about the Labyrinth)? I suppose it would have to be?

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Originally Posted by Twiddle

I found this!

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...tpanel_021.jpg

Still looking for the same for Bahamut! One of the many key's on Dalmund, it alone is bigger then Deathwing. If that thing fell on DW it would 1 shot kill him. There are dozen's seen in the video, yet when Bahamut stretches his wing's they seem to be from tip to tip as wide as Dalmund.

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/...Gr/Capture.jpg

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Well there's this...

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/69/bahamutq.jpg

Even though he's behind Limsa (which would make Limsa appear larger), he's still as large as, maybe larger than, an entire city.

Deathwing would, maybe, perch on top of the central building there.

The readily apparent mob mentality in these forums has always made it difficult for me to understand how anyone seriously believes this community is better than any other. Anyone who can spend just a few minutes in this thread and still not see it plain as day are simply too caught up in it themselves.

It's toxic.

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

At this point, fusional is simply trying to justify turning a fun conversation about two fictional dragons into some sort of debate. Just arguing for the sake of arguing.

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You seem unfamiliar with the definition of the word debate, or you simply want to put negative spin on it when it suits you. Either way, I urge you to look it up. I shouldn't have to post it.

What is the point of this thread if not to argue about two completely arbitrary things in relation to one another? How is it not "debate" or "arguing" when it comes to you? How are the other posters not participants in a debate, and how are they arguing for the sake of anything else but arguing? What other reason would they be arguing? Is there a prize to win that I'm unaware of?

Why try to use negative spin and inflection in response to one particular poster in spite of being guilty of all the same yourself?

I guess it's only 'just conversation' if they agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Ikkenoe

The readily apparent mob mentality in these forums has always made it difficult for me to understand how anyone seriously believes this community is better than any other. Anyone who can spend just a few minutes in this thread and still not see it plain as day are simply too caught up in it themselves.

It's toxic.

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Because one thread on a messageboard determines the worth of countless players in the game not in the forums and countless posters not posting in this thread.

Surely Final Fantasy is the new threat subverting our youth in America. /sarcasm.

What other baseless tone-specific judgements do you have for us?

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Well there's this...

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/69/bahamutq.jpg

Even though he's behind Limsa (which would make Limsa appear larger), he's still as large as, maybe larger than, an entire city.

Deathwing would, maybe, perch on top of the central building there.

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It's LucasArts reverting to their 1970s special effects! It's a toy replica of Limsa! or a Toy Bahamut...

That'll be auctioned for a kajillion dollars.

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Originally Posted by Ikkenoe

The readily apparent mob mentality in these forums has always made it difficult for me to understand how anyone seriously believes this community is better than any other. Anyone who can spend just a few minutes in this thread and still not see it plain as day are simply too caught up in it themselves.

It's toxic.



You seem unfamiliar with the definition of the word debate, or you simply want to put negative spin on it when it suits you. Either way, I urge you to look it up. I shouldn't have to post it.

What is the point of this thread if not to argue about two completely arbitrary things in relation to one another? How is it not "debate" or "arguing" when it comes to you? How are the other posters not participants in a debate, and how are they arguing for the sake of anything else but arguing? What other reason would they be arguing? Is there a prize to win that I'm unaware of?

Why try to use negative spin and inflection in response to one particular poster in spite of being guilty of all the same yourself?

I guess it's only 'just conversation' if they agree with you.

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Well, aren't you a ray of sunshine.... :)

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Ridiculous argument.

When Hurricane Katrina slammed into Louisiana...

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Why are you bringing up real life examples in real life context when, earlier in your rant, you went out of your way to underscore that this wasn't about real life, but simply two imaginary dragons?

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

It would, if that were actually what I was arguing, and not just some strawman you conjured up

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Chill out.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

I realize you're trying to split hairs here and draw arbitrary differences between the events, but you're just grasping at straws.

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No, seriously. Chill out.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

And here again you're grasping at straws, using real-life details to explain away lore-related events.

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It's okay when you do it, though. P.S., Chill out.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Because this is a discussion forum and we're having a discussion? Because this thread doesn't rely on your agreement or disagreement of the topic at hand?

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Discussion doesn't rely on your agreement or disagreement with his posts, either. A few of you seem to get this twisted.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Because the thread can continue and people can continue to discuss and debate it whether you're involved in it or not? Because it wasn't created for your sole benefit?

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You speak of straw men, yet readily conjure them yourself. He clearly doesn't say anything about, nor attempt to imply, that the forum or the discussion has anything at all to do with him or his benefit. The point seems to be that there's no such thing as discussion and no real point of having a "discussion forum" if everyone is expected to agree.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

What are you even going on about at this point? Seriously.

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No, really. People are going to disagree with you sometimes. You should really chill out.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Well, aren't you a ray of sunshine.... :)

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I'm not trying to be a buzzkill. I'm only trying to point out what seems like a fairly obvious problem to quite a lot of players who exist on the outskirts of the in-game and forum cliques and mobs.

A Realm Reborn is being designed to appeal to a wider audience, which means such a problem would only grow exponentially. So if people want to tout community as the primary reason for Final Fantasy MMOs having the draw and staying power that they do, this is simply a poor way to demonstrate as much.

Granted, I didn't quit as early as I did because of the community. I quit because the game was awful. I hadn't even used the forums until I came back to poke around toward the end of the original game client. But once I did check out the forums, what I've seen hasn't been very positive.

It seems like MMO High School where people's ideas are accepted or denied based on their forum popularity,where forum popularity is largely tied to liking all the same things, where you aren't allowed to go against the grain without having an entire mob of angry people chase you down. Especially if those ideas are about any non-FF games.

It's really no different at all from other forums with active communities... but isn't this game supposed to be different? Doesn't seem so.

Anyway, if the posts I'm already getting are any indication... nothing will change. So I'll crawl back into my hole for a few more months.

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Originally Posted by Ikkenoe

You seem unfamiliar with the definition of the word debate, or you simply want to put negative spin on it when it suits you. Either way, I urge you to look it up. I shouldn't have to post it.

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And you don't.

Debate - To engage in argument by discussing opposing points

Which is exactly what fusional was trying to do. Start a serious debate about something completely light-hearted and silly. And that was completely unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Ikkenoe

What is the point of this thread if not to argue about two completely arbitrary things in relation to one another? How is it not "debate" or "arguing" when it comes to you? How are the other posters not participants in a debate, and how are they arguing for the sake of anything else but arguing? What other reason would they be arguing? Is there a prize to win that I'm unaware of?

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I don't know. Maybe you should ask fusional. lol

Anyway, there is absolutely nothing wrong with arguing any point on a thread. But there's a time and place for any kind of argument. This thread is obviously not a serious one. One where people are arguing who would win in a match against a dragon and a can of coke, no less. It's supposed to be fun and silly. And fusional came onto it calling people "biased" for what they posted. I don't know whether that was because fusional has no sense of humor, is too much of a deathwing fan to allow even a joke thread like to exist without becoming angry, or is simply trolling. Whichever it was, the comments really were a bit of a proverbial wet blanket on the thread. And I called fusional out for it. Sorry if that makes you unhappy.

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Originally Posted by Ikkenoe

Why try to use negative spin and inflection in response to one particular poster in spite of being guilty of all the same yourself?

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Calling someone out for dragging down a fun thread with unnecessary debating may seem negative to you, but that depends on how you look at it. For instance, a positive way to look at it could be that fusional has actuall learned not to try to derail a fun thread with unneeded vitriol. That may be why they haven't posted in it for a while. Don't know WHY you had to drag up this conversation again. Find something else to do, for pete's sake. lol

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Originally Posted by Ikkenoe

I guess it's only 'just conversation' if they agree with you.

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What about the fun back-and-forth I had with another person on this thread about Dr. Who vs Thancred? The one where we loled while backing one or the other, neither of us resorting to bitter vitriolic words like "uncategorical bias"? lol Yeah, we disagreed, yet still had fun with each other, and it was still 'just conversation'. Silly conversation at that. (We all know Dr. Who would own Thancred, but I'm not about to let someone down-talk my boy)

Now, wanna let this subject drop? We got the thread back on track, here. Don't need it derailed again.

I wonder if people have suggested something like this matchup or similar on Death Battle?

Death Battle is a web series on Screw Attack which sorta matches up characters in a death match a la "Deadliest Warrior", Goku vs. Superman being one of many matchups they've done.

I have a question.

Name another Dragon that would be a good matchup (as in it can actually go either way) against Bahamut.

Bonus if your answer is not Tiamat.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I wonder if people have suggested something like this matchup or similar on Death Battle? I have a question.

Name another Dragon that would be a good matchup (as in it can actually go either way) against Bahamut.

Bonus if your answer is not Tiamat.

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http://www.spyrohints.com/images/0-spyro-pose-1.gif

Bahamut would get so owned.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Name another Dragon that would be a good matchup (as in it can actually go either way) against Bahamut.

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I did 25 posts ago, but no-one cared :'(

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...inryu_FFXI.png

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Name another Dragon that would be a good matchup (as in it can actually go either way) against Bahamut.

Bonus if your answer is not Tiamat.

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As Gumbercules suggested, if we're keeping within Azerothian lore, Galakrond would be a more suitable match for Bahamut:

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Originally Posted by Gumbercules

Think the closest dragon in WoW lore to the FF 14 Bahamut would probably be Galakrond, and even then id be one hell of a fight hehe.

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Galakrond, The Father Of Dragons: A massive proto-dragon who was the "progenitor of dragonkind". From him, the Titans created the Aspects. His size alone was greater than all of the Aspects combined. He was said to be extremely evil and attempted to destroy the other proto-drakes, forcing the five colors to unite to defeat him. The leaders of each color of proto-drake became the Dragon Aspects.

http://www.wowpedia.org/images/thumb...ects_cover.jpg

Deathwing was merely one of the five Dragon Aspects. Galakrond was a bad mamma jamma.

This thread was fun.. Last week. Now you Miserable people who love company, have ruined it..
/thread..

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Originally Posted by Solace

This thread was fun.. Last week. Now you Miserable people who love company, have ruined it..
/thread..

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You use... far too many... ellipses...

But I agree with your statement.

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Originally Posted by Ikkenoe

The readily apparent mob mentality in these forums has always made it difficult for me to understand how anyone seriously believes this community is better than any other. Anyone who can spend just a few minutes in this thread and still not see it plain as day are simply too caught up in it themselves.

It's toxic.

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Mob mentality? You mean most people agreeing on Bahamut being the victor in such a contest, and sharing their reasons why?

And as for negativity, where this thread is concerned, you might want to take it up with the author of this post. They brought the negativity into this thread with their snarky and entirely unnecessary opening remark.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ikkenoe

You seem unfamiliar with the definition of the word debate, or you simply want to put negative spin on it when it suits you. Either way, I urge you to look it up. I shouldn't have to post it.

What is the point of this thread if not to argue about two completely arbitrary things in relation to one another? How is it not "debate" or "arguing" when it comes to you? How are the other posters not participants in a debate, and how are they arguing for the sake of anything else but arguing? What other reason would they be arguing? Is there a prize to win that I'm unaware of?

Why try to use negative spin and inflection in response to one particular poster in spite of being guilty of all the same yourself?

I guess it's only 'just conversation' if they agree with you.

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Errr....

Skye isn't referring to the debate taking place in this thread. They're referring to the bogus debate fusional is attempting to stir up in the closing remarks of their response to one of my posts. Skye's remarks, which you responded to, were in response to me asking fusional what the hell they were even going on about. Skye's take on it was that fusional was just looking to argue for the sake of argument at that point, which was a very astute observation, as they were ranting on about something that wasn't even happening.