You might as well add an official DPS log to the game...

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Originally Posted by Doomfist

Though one way to vet whether the PF got a 'prog liar' who is studious and consistent, the in game logging system should also record the number of deaths for each pull, and to what attack.

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If we start with logging each and every single thing a player does in those fights and use that as a hurdle to overcome, then we can close PF entirely and make a new thing called "Elite player mode". Why not give each playercharacter a number over their head that shows their skill level when we start doing that? Let's divide the playerbase even more.

PF simply needs to get their crap together and take a few steps back to how it was in the past, that includes prog liars as well as tomestone-brains. The whole situation is starting to spiral out of control when we now even want to have transparent players for content in a frigging video game.
Like I wrote before, where do we draw the line? The idiots have already taken over PF, next they take over Deep Dungeons or Alliance raids?

This whole discussion over damage meters, checking in PF and kicking of players over numbers will only result in HW raiding just for another reason. Even now you have people who simply give up on raiding because they get fed up with PF and part of the reason is on the devs who seem to mostly care for Savage nowadays and the content creators who comfortably sit in their little static bubbles while acting like they know everything and have the one true opinion on fight and job design.

The last thing this situation needs is more kindling to the flame, it needs de-escalation otherwise the number of raiders will shrink down, especially when 8.0 does give jobs more focus again and the next wave of crying starts from the raiding scene.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

SE doesn't know how or can't be bothered to deescalate situations, only to backpedal once the fire gets out of control.

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While I agree, this is something the community can de-escalate as well to an extent.


Edit:
What people and the devs need to realize again is that it's a video game. It's fine to not clear week 1, for jobs to be divers and better at certain things than others and that it's fine to wipe.
Lately all the non casual content has this "I am glad it's over feeling" for people I think sometimes.
If we start changing the game just to make the whole experience even stricter, shoo away old raiders and potential new ones and if the devs repeat the start of DT with their ignoring of non raiders then where will we end?

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

If we start with logging each and every single thing a player does in those fights and use that as a hurdle to overcome, then we can close PF entirely and make a new thing called "Elite player mode". Why not give each playercharacter a number over their head that shows their skill level when we start doing that? Let's divide the playerbase even more.

PF simply needs to get their crap together and take a few steps back to how it was in the past, that includes prog liars as well as tomestone-brains. The whole situation is starting to spiral out of control when we now even want to have transparent players for content in a frigging video game.
Like I wrote before, where do we draw the line? The idiots have already taken over PF, next they take over Deep Dungeons or Alliance raids?

This whole discussion over damage meters, checking in PF and kicking of players over numbers will only result in HW raiding just for another reason. Even now you have people who simply give up on raiding because they get fed up with PF and part of the reason is on the devs who seem to mostly care for Savage nowadays and the content creators who comfortably sit in their little static bubbles while preaching what is right or wrong.

The last thing this situation needs is more kindling to the flame, it needs de-escalation otherwise the number of raiders will shrink down, especially when 8.0 does give jobs more focus again and the next wave of crying starts from the raiding scene.

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SE doesn't know how or can't be bothered to deescalate situations, only to backpedal once the fire gets out of control.

it's fine as it is: use it for yourself if you want as an improvement tool. Your own numbers can vary depending on job, party composition and how the group plays and not everyone can understand how it works (once had a party leader complaining about my dnc numbers while I was the only one in the group getting purple+ numbers because they were looking at the wrong thing and comparing it to the sam in the group). You don't need it to identify the weak link: it's easy to figure out without any external help

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

Because the person has obstructed your gameplay and progress through the TOS.

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nah i just kick and block em and go on with my evening most players are smply not worth the efford

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Originally Posted by Underscore

This raid tier, particularly M10S, has radicalized me into firmly believing that yes, logging should be officially implemented/allowed and even made mandatory for all players in high end content. Tomestone should effectively be added to the game itself, and you should be able to right-click on someone in party finder to see their prog point for a given fight. You should not be allowed to hide this information. Party Finder should have features to automatically filter players from even joining your party based on their prog point similar to item level requirements.

If the devs don't want this sort of "toxic" raiding environment, then they should stop designing fights in a way that encourages it. When every mechanic is a body check and requires perfect execution from all 8 players in order to clear the fight - when seven players can do everything perfectly and still get punished because of one player messing up - gatekeeping becomes a necessity for anyone who values their time and health.

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While I fully disagree with them adding logging into the game officially, I do very much agree with your second point. They can't say "Don't be toxic, be nice, help people learn" then keep designing fight after fight where ONE person can wipe you 8 minutes into the fight. It's a breeding ground for toxicity. But I think if they added official logging and DPS meters to the game it would become even worse.

Look at this community, everyone is quiet in game they are annoyed, but they atleast mostly keep it to themselves and the "worst" they do is kick someone unless someone is really toxic and berates them. But the moment you are outside of the game, on here, reddit, twitch, Youtube, the community is just as toxic as any other MMO. The moment they add a DPS meter to the game, that toxicity will be used in game as well. Hell it's already kinda happening now with tomestone.

Like with MOBA's, people say the worst things and spend more money on it than they do on XIV and don't care about getting banned. On top of that, I feel like DPS meters are problematic in the sense that, you could be wiping to a mechanic because one person messes it up, then they'll go "Oh, x has low dps, kick them." even though x was doing mechanics properly. It's not a good idea.

I think SE needs to step away from body checks and punishing everyone for one persons mistakes, it creates frustration, not challenge. Maybe it works in JP but in the west it simply does not work.

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Originally Posted by Ankhira

snip

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Eh you get the same stuff in JP like Na/EU except they take there complaints and/or toxicity to sites with more anonymity that funnily enough Squenix ends up seeing anyway. Heck certain groups have extra hoops that you gotta jump through fail those and you're get insta kicked.

I don't think that they'll ever get away from making savage content. They enjoy making that content even if its for a smaller audience. They've gotten better at it from the days of Bahamut Prime til now. The problem isn't the content and how hard it is, it will always be what people expect from party members and what said party members are able to bring. There are people out there who can do the mechanics flawlessly but couldn't tell you how to do the mechanics without confusing the living daylights out of you. Not everyone can(or want to) teach other player sufficiently. If everyone could this wouldn't be a problem at all. PF would be filled with the willing. And further more, you can make it easier and there still will be people out there complaining that its too hard. We could get Y'shtola to hold our hands through it all and people would complain that its not G'raha Tia.

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Originally Posted by Thaciscokidd

I don't think that they'll ever get away from making savage content. They enjoy making that content even if its for a smaller audience. They've gotten better at it from the days of Bahamut Prime til now. The problem isn't the content and how hard it is

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Uhh, I never said they should stop making Savage content? I’m not against Savage at all. My point was specifically about fight design and how body‑check mechanics don't work with the developers feelings regarding kindness and patience. I’m not asking for Savage to go away. I’m saying that punishing 7 people for 1 mistake creates frustration, not challenge, and that’s what breeds toxicity not the existence of Savage itself.

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Originally Posted by Ankhira

Uhh, I never said they should stop making Savage content? I’m not against Savage at all. My point was specifically about fight design and how body‑check mechanics don't work with the developers feelings regarding kindness and patience. I’m not asking for Savage to go away. I’m saying that punishing 7 people for 1 mistake creates frustration, not challenge, and that’s what breeds toxicity not the existence of Savage itself.

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I understood that. That's why I said "it will always be what people expect from party members and what said party members are able to bring" at the end of your quote. Player accountability has always been a part of harder content in any game. Miss a roll on a Souls like and you're pushing up daisies. Dropped that combo - King just chain wrestled you from full health to dead. Miss that speed boost you just dropped from 1st to 5th. Move during Flame Wreathe - you just wiped the raid. Blow that coverage, the other team just scored 6 on you. Don't have enough damage on Nerscylla Clone - say hello to Delta Attack.

I disagree wholly that player accountability in harder content is what breeds toxicity. You get your leeway in normal content so you can see the story. The harder content is a test of what you have learned and have to learn for a tier. That frustration is what makes you push harder, give up, or sadly correct that weak link.

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Originally Posted by Ankhira

While I fully disagree with them adding logging into the game officially, I do very much agree with your second point. They can't say "Don't be toxic, be nice, help people learn" then keep designing fight after fight where ONE person can wipe you 8 minutes into the fight. It's a breeding ground for toxicity. But I think if they added official logging and DPS meters to the game it would become even worse.

Look at this community, everyone is quiet in game they are annoyed, but they atleast mostly keep it to themselves and the "worst" they do is kick someone unless someone is really toxic and berates them. But the moment you are outside of the game, on here, reddit, twitch, Youtube, the community is just as toxic as any other MMO. The moment they add a DPS meter to the game, that toxicity will be used in game as well. Hell it's already kinda happening now with tomestone.

Like with MOBA's, people say the worst things and spend more money on it than they do on XIV and don't care about getting banned. On top of that, I feel like DPS meters are problematic in the sense that, you could be wiping to a mechanic because one person messes it up, then they'll go "Oh, x has low dps, kick them." even though x was doing mechanics properly. It's not a good idea.

I think SE needs to step away from body checks and punishing everyone for one persons mistakes, it creates frustration, not challenge. Maybe it works in JP but in the west it simply does not work.

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I remember asking in another topic about PFs for Savage (and other hardcore content in general) what happens when there's no longer enough bodies willing to show up because the frustration isn't worth the effort anymore to enough people, or the only ones running it are exclusive statics that are not looking to pick up pugs no matter what their numbers might say.

Meanwhile we have people in this topic demanding DPS meters as if that's somehow supposed to expand the pool of available players instead of shrinking it further, or how someday it could end up being the meter supporter themselves when there's no longer any "prog liars" to be found. One bad day, one bad connection, one bad pull and they're off to the blacklist same as anyone else, and they have to accept the outcome because its a system they themselves advocated for.

This game isn't exactly pulling in new players, and the few it does aren't likely to step into this content if this is how it works or the supposed "social norm" that people want to defend. Incidentally... there's always players who keep demanding that the game has a "free MSQ skip" because they want to rush people to endgame for some reason. It's almost like the lack of sustainability has already come to roost but instead of wanting the system changed, they think the solution is to just try and rush more meat into the grinder because surely SOME of it will be good enough, right?

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

If we start with logging each and every single thing a player does in those fights and use that as a hurdle to overcome, then we can close PF entirely and make a new thing called "Elite player mode". Why not give each playercharacter a number over their head that shows their skill level when we start doing that? Let's divide the playerbase even more.

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They've been begging for that for a long time. One step closer to making XIV the Pay Real Money To Progress old-school FFXI was.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Meanwhile we have people in this topic demanding DPS meters as if that's somehow supposed to expand the pool of available players instead of shrinking it further, or how someday it could end up being the meter supporter themselves when there's no longer any "prog liars" to be found. One bad day, one bad connection, one bad pull and they're off to the blacklist same as anyone else, and they have to accept the outcome because its a system they themselves advocated for.

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I think they want to further restrict the number of players in this game and make it clear they are done with the casual playerbase. I don't think they want to expand the pool of available players at all.

To wit...

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Originally Posted by theunhappypotato

nah i just kick and block em and go on with my evening most players are smply not worth the efford

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Then how do we kick and block you beforehand?

The problem with the way fflogs and parsing as it is right now is that people who chase parse logs and form up groups just to top FFlogs are being counted together with people who never parse themselves and just get randomly stuck with people who are running ACT. That means some players are getting sporadically uploaded and less than optimal runs as their only logs while others are getting carefully curated and optimized logs.

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

They've been begging for that for a long time. One step closer to making XIV the Pay Real Money To Progress old-school FFXI was.

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Ironically, FF11's playerbase is so low nowadays they had to make near-everything doable with Trusts to keep the game playable.

If anyone think Square-Enix won't do the same with FF14 if the player count gets critically low enough, I've got some land to sell them in the Aurum Vale. Newly landscaped, no poison puddles or anything.
+++

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

Then how do we kick and block you beforehand?

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That would be kind of wild if there was an "anti-ACT" mod that catalogues and helps ward you away from playing with hardcores due to the same parsing information, lol.

I mean, most of them don't want to play with casuals anyway, right? So WHY NOT have another layer of separation so the two communities can avoid each other entirely even in normal content? It's a win-win.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

The problem with the way fflogs and parsing as it is right now is that people who chase parse logs and form up groups just to top FFlogs are being counted together with people who never parse themselves and just get randomly stuck with people who are running ACT. That means some players are getting sporadically uploaded and less than optimal runs as their only logs while others are getting carefully curated and optimized logs.

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Kind of funny i dont check my own fflogs. Unless i wanna see hwo fast i clear that extreme or savage. Mostly because i'm playign the game for fun and don't stress over damage or parsing. Last i checked i cleared recollection at 7:11 clear time. Mostlyc ause we all had our buffs timed and got very lucky with crits

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

But I know that you are only here to rile things up from your other posts so whatever.

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(I think this is such a good reflection of how horrifically out of touch high end is. No. I have never set out to rile people up. What I have done is state the ridiculous as the only solution where it is such, to highlight how ridiculous the current trajectories are. I mean my god just look at this thread! I have responded to trolls aimed at me with troll statements. I have especially responded to trolls aiming at other casual players. The mods of this forum have been useless in the past, maybe they've improved now, is/was something wierd going on there, an agenda . I am biased though, highenders will have to defend themselves. Except Jeeqbit they're cool, they've worked hard to build bridges. Although not immune to being out of touch. )

But anyway, not why I'm here to post.
My god
@Square Enix.
Just look at this thread?!
And this is mostly your only remaining player demographic now tearing at itself.


I kind of 70% agree with OP.
Because I can't respect disingenuousness and people who lie to themselves.
If Square Enix publicly said ..

"We aren't bothered by an aggressively competitive high-end, we understand that impacts the whole game. We are aware that not all are happy, AND some won't want to stick around, but this is the design we have chosen for the game"...

I seriously could fully respect that. Id find it bizarre, but I'd respect it.
But how on earth, they can pretend they don't want DPS meters, and still put third party clauses in ToS (I'm not interested in unofficial live letter nuances and hints, more contemptible disingenuousness), money where your mouth is, green light it in the ToS, rather than it's current spineless corporate ass covering.

Look what your approach to high end is doing to game.
Just look - at this thread!
You keep pushing the enrages, and DPS checks, and body checks, and impossible 99tome grinds, and then saying you don't want a DPS meter.
Looked at as a whole it's just full on deranged.

Which is it? Just pick one and commit!

The only saving grace. So far it's that you haven't public NAMED 'casuals' as something you actually do want back. At least that fits with the pattern.

I kind of feel for high end because , high end is made up of many different approaches and values and wants also, and I'm damed if I can tell who it is the game is catering to.

I swear actually, it looks like Square Enix are the super troll here. It looks like they are trying to whisper in different ears and get everyone to start stabbing each other in the faces.

No I'm not trolling.
Its just utter madness.

No Endwalker Bozja, fair enough.
Drought.
Extended release times.
Chaotic with 24 man body checks.
Extreemes with 99 tome grinds.
Forked with insta Instance wipes body checks *&* baiting randoms to try and join.
Oversimplified jobs > harder DPS checks > more oversimplified jobs

Its just nuts. Its absolutely gobsmscking to watch from a far. Its demented.
I mean it can't be trolling, but it really... really .. looks like it.

No. I'm sad to say that anyone not already 65% happy, and happy to stick with that, should just give up. There is too much to fix here for next expansion, given how slow the progress is.


They should be thinking: do we want to discourage logging and DPS meters or dont we?
Do we want to *allow room for more complex jobs* or don't we?
And if the answer is yes they should have ALREADY NERFED whatever savage has no doubt kicked this off.
THAT is the speed and effective decisiveness they need just to stand still. And this IS easy dev work, and they still aren't delivering.

As yet they are still diverging from where they need to be, not closing distance.
They've just slowed the rate of that divergence.
They've reduced the bleeding, but they are still bleeding to death.


I mean look at this. Blue on blue. So nice
https://youtube.com/shorts/Lt2ToJBA82w

I'm not being controversial, I mean the following when I say.
Xenosys has been and still hovers around world number 1 in some respects. 'If' he finds even 12S any of a challenge (and he didn't actually say 'he' did he just said 11 was hard-est), but if he even finds it a hard challenge, you have screwed it up.

People doing ultimates should be almost bored with savage and should be finding it an engaging cakewalk. Very engaging yes, but absolutely nothing more. But *I know* that is not how you have tuned them.

(side issue but Square Enix, you do know this creators shorts are the only XIV content that still appears in this non-gamer, casual XIV players YouTube feed? # knows why most of my other viewing is Antons physics, Engineering, Linux. I can only assume it was that fling I had with Asmongold. Who is a dichotomy and not to be underestimated. But not my thing)

this thread is golden please keep it up, yes i'm all for dps meters btw

No, I don't think majority of casual players cares or knows about parsing 3rd party tools. TBH. Square doesn't want it and never will. It will hurt their brand of inclusivity.

I don't think those websites are harmful anyway. Just let them be. Just host your own PF if people are being finnicky about it.

Tbh fflogs is okay-ish, Tomestone is super stalkish though. Even shows when you were last online and what you were doing!!! Creepy! TBH instead I think they should provide a way to disable personal battle log. That's the text tab they parse the data from.

Or, the entire situation could've be avoided if the game have logging itself.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

1. Irrelevant. The current way, you can choose to ignore all of that like I do.

2. Also irrelevant. It can make you feel concerned, but it is just in your own mind ultimately. It could be used for stalking, but I believe they now respect the lodestone privacy setting.

3. I've never been removed for the reasons you described. But I am a good judge of party leader and don't join parties that are like that.

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Truth Flare Star.

A healthy game environment is a game environment where similarly skilled players with similar goals and mindset are matched together. If there is no such system in place already in the game, and instead it's all a giant battle royale "you get what you get", then the playerbase would take steps (gate keeping) to foster toward the ideal environment even if these measures are making the problem worse. This is basically SQEX shifting the responsibility of skill based matchmaking onto the players instead of implementing anything themselves.

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Originally Posted by KaneyamaTsukasa

A healthy game environment is a game environment where similarly skilled players with similar goals and mindset are matched together. If there is no such system in place already in the game, and instead it's all a giant battle royale "you get what you get", then the playerbase would take steps (gate keeping) to foster toward the ideal environment even if these measures are making the problem worse. This is basically SQEX shifting the responsibility of skill based matchmaking onto the players instead of implementing anything themselves.

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It should be more than just that. It should be an environment where players from all different levels can work together to overcome the challenges presented by the content. This has become less and less the case as of late, and the hostility has been greater amongst players due to the current in-game environment.

ITT: OP thinks banning parsing tools will prevent them from getting kicked for underperforming. nah. nobody outside a logging party kicks you for just parsing low unless the fight has a very tight dps check. if you get kicked over logs, it's never your actual damage number — it's your deaths, your misuse of cooldowns, literally proglying, the list goes on. all of those are things i usually kick over after 1-3 wipes, but some people skip that part by checking your ffloga. I have nothing to hide. If a farm / reclear / wahetever party is what I'm joining, I better perform well enough to not be a liability, and I believe that everyone should adhere to that rule of thumb— you're not entitled to other/better players' time solely by virtue of playing the game, lol.

It’s not the same but couldn’t get round the ‘player friction’ dilemma by just making it only show personal output? Maybe similar to the PvP results screen after each match that shows damage output, damage taken, healing etc. But only for yourself. Like, we have the technology lol (in PvP anyway)

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

ITT: OP thinks banning parsing tools will prevent them from getting kicked for underperforming. nah. nobody outside a logging party kicks you for just parsing low unless the fight has a very tight dps check. if you get kicked over logs, it's never your actual damage number — it's your deaths, your misuse of cooldowns, literally proglying, the list goes on. all of those are things i usually kick over after 1-3 wipes, but some people skip that part by checking your ffloga. I have nothing to hide. If a farm / reclear / wahetever party is what I'm joining, I better perform well enough to not be a liability, and I believe that everyone should adhere to that rule of thumb— you're not entitled to other/better players' time solely by virtue of playing the game, lol.

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but that be toxic or something

This!

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Originally Posted by KaneyamaTsukasa

A healthy game environment is a game environment where similarly skilled players with similar goals and mindset are matched together. If there is no such system in place already in the game, and instead it's all a giant battle royale "you get what you get", then the playerbase would take steps (gate keeping) to foster toward the ideal environment even if these measures are making the problem worse. This is basically SQEX shifting the responsibility of skill based matchmaking onto the players instead of implementing anything themselves.

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And THIS!

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Originally Posted by TeresaFortell

It should be more than just that. It should be an environment where players from all different levels can work together to overcome the challenges presented by the content. This has become less and less the case as of late, and the hostility has been greater amongst players due to the current in-game environment.

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Because the conversation has moved onto where it should be, Square Enix taking responsibility and making a game that is the machinery that:
- Allows people with similar goals and approaches to find each other.
- Allows people with different goals to find common ground and realign

I'm just going to repost this (with edits)

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

Games fault.
Because game can fix it.
Add counters/flags to each instance for multiple key prog points. Thousand ways to 'present' that. Pick one. You could even add more inventoty tokens to the game if your feeling maliciously lazy about the dev work.
But it has to be done
When you pass a prog point your counter go up.
PF leaders can pick two prog points and say, I want X clears off the first and Y clears off the second.
Instance dev picks 5 prog points to label in the game. (If five is not enough it's a bad game design, or your need to "play other games" because your too fussy)

I dont want to hear technical excuses because they can only be poor. The only excuse is "we made mistakes in the past design and we are not stepping outside them"
The storage is still cheap.
The compute is cheap.
The data transfer is cheap if you stick to what's needed' query transactions. If your transferring a whole characters entire history have state to enter an instance that's just dumb.
Dont tell me it's impossible to pull 5 bytes (if that) over http on demand from a new database, even if that database is the other side of the world.

Its not people that are broken. People are people, that's the bit you have to "work with"

NoSQL. Partition by character ID, now you just throw new named documents in. Again if your storing the whole of a character or even the whole of their history in one document, that's just dumb.

Actually the truth is that, certainly pre AI inflation, with NoSQL you could have had a prog counter for every mechanic and it would have cost little extra.

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The DPS issue?

@SE

Start properly QAing and properly testing your instances.
I hear a lot that that to me sounds like you instance testing is poor.
You should know what the bottom percentile of your target audience is able to achieve, and limit the variable that is the HP, accordingly.
Show some self control, stop this belief that if you make it harder your audience will just get better. They don't, they just find other ways, or they don't.
If you get it wrong that's fine, but fix it and fix it fast, and consistently fix it fast.
When you push it, and you push the margins, you start writing cheques you need to make sure you can cache, or don't write them.
Its your games job. Its your job.

After coming back to the game for a couple of days I've definitely changed my mind about this. Would love to see clear DPS logs for an instance. It would really help put into prespective what i'm doing. I'm on PS5 so I don't have any tool except a vague suggestion by the aggro list. I'd love a link to paste to xivanalysis or something.

Are people really being kicked out of practice parties for not being top DPS or are they kicked out for not meeting the minimum DPS requirement that Savage content requires?

You practice the mechanics, not your rotation; otherwise you're just wasting 7 other people's time. I don't think that's toxic. Unless they require SSS cleares before joining a high end Duty there's really no other way to check beforehand.

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

Using 3rd party tools to block players from doing endgame content is pure toxicity and don't forget that there is players who aren't underperforming but unable to do top DPS all the time and there is players who are doing simple mistakes but being blokced doing endgame content completely because of these 3rd party tool users.

Just image wanting to learn and complete newest savage raid, you join the practice party to learn the fight but you get instantly kicked out due to party leader using 3rd party tools to see that you are not doing top DPS all the time and same thing happens with every practice party you are trying to join.

If anything 3rd party tools should never being used to prevent players to learn and complete endgame content, even if the player is underperforming at first while they are learning the fight and then perform as well then most players who are doing endgame content.

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That's not the case though. Usually people get kicked over logs only if the DPS check is tight or they're caught proglying or they're actively eating DMG downs left and right. Other scenarios: I'm premade and a friend has them blocked — usually an instant kick if it's blocked for underperformance and not something silly like Frontline sound effect crimes. Or the person is premade with someone who sucks.

You can choose: get kicked for underperforming before you instance in and nobody's time is wasted, or get kicked after you enter the instance because even without ACT, underperformers are obvious. And if you get kicked that often, then consider that maybe, indeed, you are the problem. And if you aren't, make a party of your own! It ain't that deep. I underperformed on DPS in M6S in week 3 or so, and thus I switched to healer. It's an acknowledgement of your limitations.

/e: Also, what Moqi said.

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

don't forget that there is players who aren't underperforming but unable to do top DPS all the time and there is players who are doing simple mistakes but being blokced doing endgame content completely because of these 3rd party tool users.

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Have you ever done savage?

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Just image wanting to learn and complete newest savage raid, you join the practice party to learn the fight but you get instantly kicked out due to party leader using 3rd party tools to see that you are not doing top DPS all the time and same thing happens with every practice party you are trying to join.

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Doesn't sound like you have ...

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If anything 3rd party tools should never being used to prevent players to learn and complete endgame content

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This would be the part in the scooby doo movies when they pull the mask off of the ghost, and it's revealed they never actually had raided savage.

Because you have never done savage, you do not realize that no one (in their right mind) is looking at DPS during PROG. Damage is completely IRRELEVANT. I am fine with a DNC pressing nothing, as long as they do the mechanics. They're not going to be my problem when I am going for a CLEAR party. What you should be complaining about is that 3rd party tools will be used to stop people from joining clear groups, because their damage is so bad, that they are dead weight. If you're hitting some green parses, you're probably fine. But if you're hitting single digit parses over and over again, then yeah people aren't willing to carry you, because you never learned your job. Wait a few weeks when gear can carry you, and people will not care.

The thing also is, without third party tools like ACT, you will get people who are doing acceptable damage kicked out of the party, because they were the lowest on ENMITY.

It is very hard to believe someone's getting kicked from a pratice party because they eat damage *only* once or twice...

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

Player eating damage once or twice is something shouldn't lead to being kicked from the party when everyone can make mistakes, there can be chance where player gets suddenly distracted by something or other reasons that they don't able to evade taking damage.

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It's early enough in the tier for a handful of damage downs to result in not meeting the DPS requirement before hard enrage, especially if people aren't managing to get full uptime for various reasons or are making other mistakes.

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

How you even know without using 3rd party tools that player is underperforming if the party have never played with the player who joined?

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Damage Down, Weakness, and Brink of Death are all "I fucked up the mechanic" badges. If someone is getting them consistently, they're underperforming.

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

If this underperforming is tied to certain DPS jobs for not able to deal with tight DPS check then that is devs fault for making certain DPS jobs too weak and making DPS check too tight.

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Savage is the hard mode. If you're doing it early in the tier, you either step up to the plate or you don't clear it.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

FFLogs and Tomestone/passport is a symptom of a bigger problem, players that constantly lying about their prog points and seemingly incapable of pressing their abilities. Almost like if you don't lie and know your job, then you have nothing to worry about.

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100% game issue.

They can literally make sort of 'check-points' that would add to your character object something like duty XYZ: prog point [name of mechanic]. It could only display for you in duty finder as well as used in pf like a tag similar to [loot][farm][duty complete] etc. Your character object doesn't have such check point? these parties arent for you.

If only there were optional quests for each job with a hard battle at the end to test your knowledge of mechanics, rotation and mitigation skills. You might even call them... Job Quests?

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Originally Posted by Moqi

If only there were optional quests for each job with a hard battle at the end to test your knowledge of mechanics, rotation and mitigation skills. You might even call them... Job Quests?

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I'd rather they just had a Hardcore Boot Camp of sorts, complete with NPCs that quite literally walk/talk you through mechanics of a fight and you get drilled/throttled until the game gives you a passing grade for trying the real fight. (And I don't mean a C- but an A+.)

Leaving such things to player discretion is how we got the current problems we have where even some practice and prog parties still look up logs and kick people/disband quickly, or how the "git gud" crap doesn't mean anything if people aren't even allowed to try and, you know, actually learn and get better before they attempt an actual clear.

This game is nothing if not anti-socal/anti-MMO, especially when it comes to randoms, so it needs more in-game tools to make up for most people's unwillingness to cooperate with or trust struggling strangers when it comes to content that requires perfect coordination. Would a gold star from this hypothetical boot camp guarantee a clear? No, but it would be more useful in gauging a player's ability to attempt the content beyond just the numbers, and it keeps it entirely in-game instead of leaving it at the whim of a third party tool that "doesn't tell the whole story" and is against the ToS anyway.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I'd rather they just had a Hardcore Boot Camp of sorts, complete with NPCs that quite literally walk/talk you through mechanics of a fight and you get drilled/throttled until the game gives you a passing grade for trying the real fight. (And I don't mean a C- but an A+.)

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Part of the fun for some is actually getting to figure out the mechanics yourself, so I don't think this will work as it will decrease strategic creativity in the space. However, I don't dislike the base idea: I think that if you were to combine current high-end striking dummies (base rotational skill required for a given fight; tho it's kind of ass on DNC and some other support-ish jobs so it does need tuning) with a Hall of the Novice esque speedrun of basic Savage mechanics (all common variations of spreads with consequences (i.e. overlapping spreads kill you), paying attention to debuffs and buffs, reading boss casts, recurring mechanics like limit cut adjacent stuff and exaflares and all that) set up in a puzzle-style way, I think it'd provide an easier access point. However, any effort to make it mandatory or per-fight would inevitably throw off a lot of day one raiders, so I think it does need to be optional.

Also lmao @ that person deleting their replies because they're factually wrong lol.

Even as a non-hardcore player I would love this. We’ve had Hall of the Novice for a while, and lately we also have the mechanics tutorial at level 49. An instructive solo duty series on high-end mechanics would be an excellent follow-on.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

However, any effort to make it mandatory or per-fight would inevitably throw off a lot of day one raiders, so I think it does need to be optional.

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Oh no no no... I insist its a strict requirement for all would-be raiders to help prune supposed "prog liars" if the lack of a passing grade won't even allow you to join/make PFs for the content or even attempt to queue in directly.

If the whole point of demanding in-game DPS meters is to avoid being stuck with players one deems incapable or incompetent of clearing (or even just progging) the content, than a harsh hurdle of "do you even know what you're doing before you drag other people along" is perfect. And if day one raiders and world racers have a problem with that, then they're free to ace the test and flex about it while others are still getting schooled (literally), and of course prior parsing numbers mean little, if anything, if the game its self decides if someone is ready or not, and the graduated are all stepping in at the same time to prove it.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

This is exactly the kind of mentality why no one wants to raid anymore. Can't even join a dungeon party without someone checking out your tomestone profile (against my consent) and excluding you from the party, because you didn't meet some arbitrary line in the sand that doesn't exist in the game. People used to operate on trust and common decency, now it's all about numbers and efficiency, with no fun to be had. I am not entitled to a spot, so if they have an in-game reason to remove me, then fine. But they used data from third party programs to unfairly eliminate me from the battle before it even had begun before I even had the chance to prove that I am fit to be there. Also, I'm so sick of telling someone else to make their own party, like as if we don't have jobs and lives to live. I don't have the time to sit in party waiting for it to fill.

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You literally said you wanted to join for a mech you had not seen. why trust a liar, where is the decency? It's also not an arbitrary line, that suggests there is no reason for the line. The reason for the line is that it's where players want to prog from but when you come in two mechs behind the party never gets there, never gets the prog they put the group up for.

It's their group. Grow up and join one suited to your own prog point and actually, you know, progress through the fight. The other players in those groups often have jobs and lives too, and it's their time you're trying to waste.

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Originally Posted by Carstien

You literally said you wanted to join for a mech you had not seen. why trust a liar, where is the decency? It's also not an arbitrary line, that suggests there is no reason for the line. The reason for the line is that it's where players want to prog from but when you come in two mechs behind the party never gets there, never gets the prog they put the group up for.

It's their group. Grow up and join one suited to your own prog point and actually, you know, progress through the fight. The other players in those groups often have jobs and lives too, and it's their time you're trying to waste.

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Report him if he tries that with you -- that's against the rules of Obstruction on two grounds: It impedes your progress, and he is committing fraud by deliberate misrepresentation of his skill level and progress.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I'd rather they just had a Hardcore Boot Camp of sorts, complete with NPCs that quite literally walk/talk you through mechanics of a fight and you get drilled/throttled until the game gives you a passing grade for trying the real fight. (And I don't mean a C- but an A+.)

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I get the feeling a lot of people would like to have a place where the game effectively forces you to unsub if you can't meet a certain skill level.

That's a whole lot of jumping to conclusions...