Chaotic Alliance Raid: More Content for Professional Gamers

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

The way I see it, the problem is not that the line exists, or that it exists between Normal and Extreme.

The problem is if you're someone hoping to jump into high-end content, you open Party Finder, and the majority of listings are just word soup. And while it's true that anyone can put up their own listing with their own requirements and whatnot, when you (figuratively) read the room, you get the sense that word soup is the norm and... you have no idea what any of that means or where to start.

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Word soup/salad suck a lot, at that point better watch a clear and figure that out

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

It's confirmed to be a 24 person Savage trial apparently. No... just because you can do any normal alliance raid doesn't mean you can do a Chaotic raid. Same for a normal eight man. What? Half of your post is just incorrect, the other half is "just do it"

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And you're clearly speaking as someone who's cleared the fight, correct?

Because it IS that easy as just do it. Everyone complaining are people who complain about the lock conditions of other parties.

Just because you can't do content or struggle with mechanics, doesn't mean what I said is incorrect. The content isn't high savage level. It's between Extreme trials and first level of savage content.

I went through DT EX3 in three lockouts and was on farm. I slowed down on savage raiding in early endwalker and missed shadowbringers, but I always enjoy doing EX fights and challenging raid content. I did M1s and M2s when it first came out and this fight CAR is easier mechanically than M1s and M2s.

That being said; this chaotic fight has two mechanics that are making it a problem. Tower stack and the swap mechanic P2. If one person misses a tower and there is no tank LB1 or 2 up, say goodbye to the alliance, even with party mitigation.

If one person misses on the swap mechanic (primarily by death of course) then it will add one extra person in the wrong place and thus making the fight more than likely impossible to clear. (From outright failure to heal and/or missing another tower. As well as further deaths of improperly completed mechanics and dying to enrage from lack of dps)

As a savage raider, I will agree that based on adding 24 people into this equation and including the chance to make a mistake, phase 2 is savage level difficulty. Phase 1 is around EX, yes, but P2 is not.

I've done 15 parties yesterday and all of the PF descriptions read clear/reclear or clear/enrage parties. I have yet to still get a clear.
If they perhaps make towers less punishing by turning the failed mech explosion dmg into much less dmg and add a dmg down + bleed to the alliance or party itself, that would may drop it down closer to mid core ex level. It is an example, nothing more.

I love the fight, but many are impatient with an elitist mentality and just make it an exhausting endeavor.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

The way I see it, the problem is not that the line exists, or that it exists between Normal and Extreme.

The problem is if you're someone hoping to jump into high-end content, you open Party Finder, and the majority of listings are just word soup. And while it's true that anyone can put up their own listing with their own requirements and whatnot, when you (figuratively) read the room, you get the sense that word soup is the norm and... you have no idea what any of that means or where to start.

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There is certainly something that can be said about the raid culture having certain lingo and conventions that are unfamiliar when starting. However, there is no way around it to learn than to actually go and start learning it by engaging with it, or worse, asking questions. The internet exists with myriad of guides, one can just take some older one if they don't want to spoiler mechanics of the current fight.

The thing is, there is no way bridge this gap. Take spread positions. Normal content features everyone getting flares, which is just resolved by "yolo" strat in groups, no positioning. Even fights that actually would enforce some kind of positioning for mechanics, like p9n when the ice contracts and 3 people have flares, it's still always resolved with "yolo". I mean, most classes don't even have to dodge mechanics to survice, as long as one gets hit only by one of the mechanics. The whole point of difficult content is that this kind of mechanic resolving has immediate consequences in the death of a player character or wiping the group. So every opportunity to learn or establish the necessary skills or patterns in normal content is wasted, because "why bother when you can clear yolo". Raising the requirement would certainly not increase the "fun", as e6n or e7n show.

At the end of the day, this game is about everyone's willingness to improve in the first place. The normal content offers opportunities, but they are wasted left and right. The community itself is also more of the "you don't pay my sub" / "better not say anything" mentality than everything else. End result is a community with a general low skill level when it comes to jobs and mechanics, as well as little ability to resolve conflicts or even speak out for themselves.

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

There is certainly something that can be said about the raid culture having certain lingo and conventions that are unfamiliar when starting. However, there is no way around it to learn than to actually go and start learning it by engaging with it, or worse, asking questions. The internet exists with myriad of guides, one can just take some older one if they don't want to spoiler mechanics of the current fight.

The thing is, there is no way bridge this gap. Take spread positions. Normal content features everyone getting flares, which is just resolved by "yolo" strat in groups, no positioning. Even fights that actually would enforce some kind of positioning for mechanics, like p9n when the ice contracts and 3 people have flares, it's still always resolved with "yolo". I mean, most classes don't even have to dodge mechanics to survice, as long as one gets hit only by one of the mechanics. The whole point of difficult content is that this kind of mechanic resolving has immediate consequences in the death of a player character or wiping the group. So every opportunity to learn or establish the necessary skills or patterns in normal content is wasted, because "why bother when you can clear yolo". Raising the requirement would certainly not increase the "fun", as e6n or e7n show.

At the end of the day, this game is about everyone's willingness to improve in the first place. The normal content offers opportunities, but they are wasted left and right. The community itself is also more of the "you don't pay my sub" / "better not say anything" mentality than everything else. End result is a community with a general low skill level when it comes to jobs and mechanics, as well as little ability to resolve conflicts or even speak out for themselves.

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I think one thing that would already help is to give every duty some kind of compendium ( is that the right word?) you can read outside the duty that explains the debuffs and buffs you are to encounter. If only with the text description so you don't have to hover your mouse over it.
I would bet money that most people (even raiders) most of the time don't even know what a bunch of those do.

For the lingo...
I was always wondering. Is there a site somewhere that has it all explained?

I generally agree with your post, especially with the "willingness to improve" but on one point.
The yolo strats are kinda my favourite.
I like when you can resolve mechanics with just spontan out of the box thinking and I wish more hard fights allowed those.
You can see that with flares in chaotic with people running to their spot instead of... just the corner that is next to them.
Or the "pair" mechanic. Instead of standing still even on the other side they run back and forth just to be exactly like the raidplan and that causes wipes.
Personally I think the "on the rail mechanics" have resulted in pure guide fights where no one thinks anymore.

Edit:
To clarify my first point.
I think there should be more explanations already ingame instead of outside it.
That even starts with setting up a PF group where it doesn't mention anywhere that job slots get locked if someone leaves.

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Originally Posted by sweetietreat

And you're clearly speaking as someone who's cleared the fight, correct?

Because it IS that easy as just do it. Everyone complaining are people who complain about the lock conditions of other parties.

Just because you can't do content or struggle with mechanics, doesn't mean what I said is incorrect. The content isn't high savage level. It's between Extreme trials and first level of savage content.

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All complaints are definitely not about the lock conditions of other parties. Some are, yes. There are a lot of people complaining about bits and bobs of the fight itself. No, no. It's not "between" Savage content. It is Savage content.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

I think one thing that would already help is to give every duty some kind of compendium ( is that the right word?) you can read outside the duty that explains the debuffs and buffs you are to encounter. If only with the text description so you don't have to hover your mouse over it.
I would bet money that most people (even raiders) most of the time don't even know what a bunch of those do.

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No, the majority don't, that's one of the main issue I mentioned in some other thread earlier, and why the CODCAR is such a pain even when half the raid is glowing with ultimate weapons. The main mentality has been "following the guide", not understanding the mechanics or why the solution in the guide solves the mechanic. This has also led to people basically been unable to think on their feet, and we can see it with the swaps. Instead of taking the time that the encounter gives after the swaps to organize by movement into groups and pairs, people just panic. The same goes for the people in the mid, who constantly just wait for a mechanic to start, instead of regularly resetting their tiles. Or when someone on the inside is dead, and tanks / dps make way, the inside healers will just stand there. Even when telling them to go in chat. Pure tunnel vision for the next mechanic.

Yes, a compendium would be nice. I love p8s, but the alchemy mechanic in the 2nd phase was just cryptic. However, it wouldn't really make such a difference, because at the end of the day, one still has to actually go in and learn / do the mechanic. E.g. there will be spread positions, and one simply has to get used to having such a position.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

For the lingo...
I was always wondering. Is there a site somewhere that has it all explained?

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None that has "it all", but a quick search revealed several different resources that covered different overlapping parts. The thing is, when we look at this fight, what mechanics does it even have that people shouldn't already know? Off the drop of my head, only the hands mechanic, the pairs and swaps are non-normal content mechanics, with the pairs mechanic actually existing in normal content but having a proper indicator there. Everything else is basically rehashed and uses the indicators from normal. Even the tank debuff is reused from o4n. Certainly, the first mechanics of this fight are as beginner friendly as can be. There isn't even a dps check to meet at that stage, so one can purely concentrate on mechanics and learn to operate in such an environment.

I want to give the raid a try but juggling with: Do I want too deal with the PF headache be it joining a group or forming my own.

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

No, the majority don't, that's one of the main issue I mentioned in some other thread earlier, and why the CODCAR is such a pain even when half the raid is glowing with ultimate weapons. The main mentality has been "following the guide", not understanding the mechanics or why the solution in the guide solves the mechanic. This has also led to people basically been unable to think on their feet, and we can see it with the swaps. Instead of taking the time that the encounter gives after the swaps to organize by movement into groups and pairs, people just panic. The same goes for the people in the mid, who constantly just wait for a mechanic to start, instead of regularly resetting their tiles. Or when someone on the inside is dead, and tanks / dps make way, the inside healers will just stand there. Even when telling them to go in chat. Pure tunnel vision for the next mechanic.

Yes, a compendium would be nice. I love p8s, but the alchemy mechanic in the 2nd phase was just cryptic. However, it wouldn't really make such a difference, because at the end of the day, one still has to actually go in and learn / do the mechanic. E.g. there will be spread positions, and one simply has to get used to having such a position.



None that has "it all", but a quick search revealed several different resources that covered different overlapping parts. The thing is, when we look at this fight, what mechanics does it even have that people shouldn't already know? Off the drop of my head, only the hands mechanic, the pairs and swaps are non-normal content mechanics, with the pairs mechanic actually existing in normal content but having a proper indicator there. Everything else is basically rehashed and uses the indicators from normal. Even the tank debuff is reused from o4n. Certainly, the first mechanics of this fight are as beginner friendly as can be. There isn't even a dps check to meet at that stage, so one can purely concentrate on mechanics and learn to operate in such an environment.

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Hmm true. It probably wouldn't help THAT much to have a compendium.
I agree that the whole follow marker and strategies is a result from how the game is designed to this day since... I don't know.
No more crowd control and so on. The most freedom probably being things like anti knockback. Even little things like Manashift were nice when the healer had to raise often and just felt good even if not often used.

Tbh I think the pair mechanic while not new kinda sucks in that it doesn't really tell you what exactly counts as "pair". The "how much can people stand distanced from each other" is not exactly clear and so many step on the toe of the other and in worst case bait another one.
I think here it could help if... I don't know maybe both players glow if near enough to each other.
Things like this wouldn't be much but kinda add to more easily identify things.

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Originally Posted by SkankyRoe

How is it only relevant in the future? The ilvl sync is in place right now. Everyone who enters is synced up to 735. There is no advantage for having higher than 710 for this raid.

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That is literally not how that works. Lmao.

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Originally Posted by Wren

I went through DT EX3 in three lockouts and was on farm. I slowed down on savage raiding in early endwalker and missed shadowbringers, but I always enjoy doing EX fights and challenging raid content. I did M1s and M2s when it first came out and this fight CAR is easier mechanically than M1s and M2s.

That being said; this chaotic fight has two mechanics that are making it a problem. Tower stack and the swap mechanic P2. If one person misses a tower and there is no tank LB1 or 2 up, say goodbye to the alliance, even with party mitigation.

If one person misses on the swap mechanic (primarily by death of course) then it will add one extra person in the wrong place and thus making the fight more than likely impossible to clear. (From outright failure to heal and/or missing another tower. As well as further deaths of improperly completed mechanics and dying to enrage from lack of dps)

As a savage raider, I will agree that based on adding 24 people into this equation and including the chance to make a mistake, phase 2 is savage level difficulty. Phase 1 is around EX, yes, but P2 is not.

I've done 15 parties yesterday and all of the PF descriptions read clear/reclear or clear/enrage parties. I have yet to still get a clear.
If they perhaps make towers less punishing by turning the failed mech explosion dmg into much less dmg and add a dmg down + bleed to the alliance or party itself, that would may drop it down closer to mid core ex level. It is an example, nothing more.

I love the fight, but many are impatient with an elitist mentality and just make it an exhausting endeavor.

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The problem isn’t even that the mechanics itself is a body check. The biggest problem is that it is a 24 man body check after the swap mechanic. So every dead person when towers happen give you 1 vuln stack and dmg per missing person. If the towers were just 6 tower and the maximum as dmg and stack you could take would be 6 and not 24 then it would be not as asinine doing this fight in pf.

See thats why i say stop the insta death, debuff us. If we rather hin enrage then reset every 5 min, ppl still see more of the fight, can practice more, get a better timing - and taking the "one mistake and ill kill everyone" stress would help surely as well...

I dont want an easy clear, i want to actually practice and not immediately wipe. Still got my ptsd from Emerald ex and its orbs 15 sec after pull... so many isnta wipes lol

Im the first one to say "well too bad if youre too bad" but killing 24 ppl because we messed some tower? meh... just let us hit enrage.

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Originally Posted by Hastatus

The new Chaotic Alliance Raid will again make 1% of players happy but where is the mid-tier content for the rest of us amateur players? For the rest of us this content just highlights the miserable difficulty systems that get neglected. Want to use Duty Finder: wait a few hours for it to not fill. Use the PF: spend hours going through lists trying to mentally filter Duty Completes from Duty Incompletes, blue text from yellow text, weird prog point descriptions, different strategies/plans, different emotional requirements, different skill requirements, trying to fit your job requirements ... all after a long day with real life requirements. Get your high definition displays ready. Have a second monitor with third party sites explaining what to do. Make sure you're on Discord. Have your group of purple(?) parsers ready. Make sure to record everything for post analysis. Have a 25th player doing analysis and commentary live. Make sure you did hours of homework before playing. If you do finally fill up three teams, it is only a matter of time before one person leaves and the alliance goes from 24 to 7. You should have had a difficulty warning like Eureka BA had back in the day, but a lot of your extra content is headed in this direction now it seems. I'm starting to think the developers fixate on the experiences and opinions of youtubers, steamers, and podcasters when it comes to raids. What about the rest of us who have very little voice and no financial interest?

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I'm not sure what they are doing right now. Not to mention the youtubers being pointed out here already state to avoid doing this in PF and find some kind of discord to organize doing it because of the obvious problems attempting to use the same strategies found in extreme or savage content in a 24 man setting. In PF the 8 man is doable because it is 8 chances to explode at a mechanic, but in this we got 24 chances of failing and exploding on a mechanic. So we got three times the failure rate on content over an extreme even with similar mechanics. The only way this is doable consistently is if the difficulty is something more along the lines of old Ivalice Thunder God Cid, which was tough but it had enough forgiveness that people generally could learn the mechanics. Truth is that if they were listening to feedback they would have scrapped this entire thing and swapped in something else, or drastically changed how the fight works so that it is more like a harder / old school alliance raid. If the boss had a lot of the learning aids found in normal 24 mans it probably would be a lot more doable.

I mean, yes people can clear this fight no problem. No idea how someone is going to reclear it to get totems consistently for the rewards, and if this is the only way to get the rewards from it people might as well wait until we heavily out gear the fight and then do it assuming there isn't any scaling being used to lock the fight down. If the fight does have level scaling that can't be swapped out it will probably be dead or super niche content by the time we get to week 4.

Cid is a perfect example yes, it was hard, but you could learn and teach... IMO one of the easier fixes wouldve been if they made an "normal" version of the fight as well, just less deadly, fewer loot... so you dont learn a new fight but just the step up.

-That way you could also tie the harder version to the clear and filter out ppl who just arent ready yet.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

- Removed for character limit -

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Wildstar had a general lack of content, not just a focus on hardcore content. IIRC they had a very toxic work environment which led to a few key senior members of the development team leaving shortly before release, which in turn crippled development speed and led to a lack of content, which led to players leaving, which led to the devs trying to milk the players who stayed, which led to more people leaving, then it died.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

Cid is a perfect example yes, it was hard, but you could learn and teach... IMO one of the easier fixes wouldve been if they made an "normal" version of the fight as well, just less deadly, fewer loot... so you dont learn a new fight but just the step up.

-That way you could also tie the harder version to the clear and filter out ppl who just arent ready yet.

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On another note, the author is incorrect that 1% of people do hardcore content. It's more like 25-30% of the player base has done some form of hardcore content consistently, but this is a problem where the only content to do for the past few years at end game with any meaning has been hard mode content. A lot of people really are not the right fit for the content and it shows with all the social traction even on the 8 man version. Basically typical japanese development shoebox where no one is there to tell the conductor they need to swap to the other track because the current one is bad and both the JP and US communities are on the same exact page for once unlike the healer problem, which is more of a misunderstanding.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

I want to give the raid a try but juggling with: Do I want too deal with the PF headache be it joining a group or forming my own.

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Form a 24 person static, for your own sanity.