XIV EW Job-Gameplay is Terrible... Why?

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

If only English was my 1st Language... Ahh!! ( Table-Flips Dictionary ) It's like double thinking when some words are just really foreign to me and I Google everything just to make sure. Gets worse with Game and Forum Acronyms that I never heard, seen or read XD

Scrupulous... Fluorescence... Convoluted...
Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg...

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At the end of the day, you're on an online forum, as long as you're communicating your point it really doesn't matter because that's all language really is. There's not a gold medal for speaking or writing perfect, grammatically correct English in everyday environments. The only place where it does matter would be in a professional English-related environment, such as writing a thesis, where you should just use "regardless" because there are people who will read "irregardless" and see that as sloppy, or a lack of proper understanding of the language. And I only say this simply because you asked. And I'm sorry if it comes across as digging too much into it. My goal's just to provide a clear answer, but talking about how we talk and correcting people can very easily become a sensitive topic. Your English writing quality overall is exceptional from what I've seen.

It's already due time for the jobs liveletter and the release of the job page. It's really dumb to be quiet about it for so long, just not to anger the playerbase. While this might be true and everything is STC, it's impossible to avoid player complains. Someone will always be angered. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

It's already due time for the jobs liveletter and the release of the job page.

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How do you figure? We still don't even know the release date, nor have we gotten the benchmark or any mention of it. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't remember what order stuff like that normally comes out.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

- Square erases Job Flare/Flavor/Depth, because...

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I think Xenosys had the right idea in one of his videos with the Cup of Balance(tm): in short, you cannot overfill the cup, and you have to balance between DPS checks, Encounter mechanical intricacies, and Job/battlesystem intricacies. If you overfill it then the balance gets out of hand and it starts being too difficult for a wide margin, or at least, the system gets caught flat footed so to speak, or too obnoxious.

Back in HW/SB we had a similarly sized Encounter Design and Job Design. Since ShB and they doubled down in EW on this, they immensely reduced the side of Job intricacies until it became very thin, in favor of increasing dramatically Fight Design and difficulty (in savage+). Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that everything hasn't become insanely rigid due to the formulaic aspect of their approach, and I do believe we could get more varied encounters and whatnot without even touching this balance, but fact of the matter is they have chosen a paradigm where they put 99% of the focus exclusively on fight design, difficulty and more intricate mechanics at the expense of job intricacy which only gets to deal with minimum welfare. For instance, if we had to clear the recent savage tiers, or worse, the last 2 ultimates with the HW/SB battlesystem and job kits, well, you can imagine the nightmare.

I do however wish for them to go back to a more balanced approach between Encounter Design and Job Design though, for the very reason you explain. I do agree 100%. I play for the battle system and the jobs first and foremost.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Question: " Does your favorite Job(s) give you the best Job-Gameplay experience in the current EW Expansion or even the current Patch 6.55 compared to another Patch or Expansion? "

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I do not know if the question was only rhetorical or not, but no, my favorite job has stopped giving me satisfaction since ShB butchered it irremediably to the ground, and EW didn't improve anything on what people said would have been a " basic, fresh start". It's still as dull and its identity is at the opposite of what it used to be.

Imagine a world where WHM plays like SMN.

Instead of rotating between summons you rotate between elements. Earth, Air, Water, and Holy. Even if we're still functionally just pressing 1111 in different flavors like SMN does, it would still do a lot to break up the monotony. SMN is known for being a great job to learn mechanics with, so we don't need to worry about players being overwhelmed.

Healers have such bloated healing kits that barely get used, and such barren DPS kits that consume 80% of their gameplay. This can't be the best SE can do. Even as a profit-maximizing strategy I refuse to believe this is the most optimal path SE can take.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlpaw

Imagine a world where WHM plays like SMN.

Instead of rotating between summons you rotate between elements. Earth, Air, Water, and Holy. Even if we're still functionally just pressing 1111 in different flavors like SMN does, it would still do a lot to break up the monotony. SMN is known for being a great job to learn mechanics with, so we don't need to worry about players being overwhelmed.

Healers have such bloated healing kits that barely get used, and such barren DPS kits that consume 80% of their gameplay. This can't be the best SE can do. Even as a profit-maximizing strategy I refuse to believe this is the most optimal path SE can take.

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Counterpoint SMN is hot garbage and should only be used as a template for “how not to do any class, even a healer”

Bro came in guns blazing and decided not to address the fact that he got btfo'd when minimal detective work was done as he got called out.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I do not know if the question was only rhetorical or not...(snip)

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Yay I meant it, due to the Job play-rate argument statistics being overused and then they go " Oh see! look how star-sparkling-flawless the Job designs are cause its being played so much. Look! they cast Glare so much they love it! ". Do people really think Job-Design peaked in EW or at this specific patch 6.57? Would like to hear Yes/No because... insert answer

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Originally Posted by Valence

I think Xenosys had the right idea in one of his videos with the Cup of Balance(tm)... (snip)

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Seen Xenosys's take and agreed. There's only a certain amount of Inputs/Actions/Movements/Things players on Average even at high-end players can remember and execute a mix of all of it at the same time with the limitations of our Job-Kits. Gotta strike a balance and credit to the Dev's? the Fights are released overall in a good working state ( lets not talk about P8S and NIN issues with TOP release...) all things considered.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Back in HW/SB we had a similarly sized Encounter Design and Job Design. Since ShB and they doubled down in EW on this, they immensely reduced the side of Job intricacies until it became very thin, in favor of increasing dramatically Fight Design and difficulty (in savage+)...(snip)

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This is XIV history that I know very little of as I joined late in end of SHB, its good to share insight. Hmm... Could take an angle? where you compare EW Savage encounters, compare them to previous expansions ( Coils/Alexander/Omega/Eden ) and how much more difficult it has become with mechanics and features such as hitbox increased, melee uptime, pulling as a Tank - then see if that difficulty we reached in EW justified all the simplifications we received... I would say with some fights I done at minilvl? Like Halicarnassus, Shiva Eden, Oracle, Kefka, ExDeath, a lot of streamlining wasn't required? or as well thought through as possible. I leave out Ultimate for the actual experts on it, as I found no joy in doing them, thus I have no expertise on Ultimate.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I do however wish for them to go back to a more balanced approach between Encounter Design and Job Design though, for the very reason you explain. I do agree 100%. I play for the battle system and the jobs first and foremost.

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This is my main gripe with it all indeed. It doesn't feel balanced, it feels very heavily loaded on mechanics and as we know? most of XIV's mechanics are dull unless you go High-end content, making most the content extra dull... I know Square can do better then this, they even showed they have. It's really a matter of if they will. There is no negative to be had for Job-Gameplay to be improved for the Players-Experience, mhm

I wish there was a place for more chaotic fights like King Mog Ex. It doesn’t have to be every extreme or savage or beyond, but if there was a good mix of more puzzle like fights and more chaotic ones, there’d at least be more options for players with different tastes.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Yay I meant it, due to the Job play-rate argument statistics being overused and then they go " Oh see! look how star-sparkling-flawless the Job designs are cause its being played so much. Look! they cast Glare so much they love it! ". Do people really think Job-Design peaked in EW or at this specific patch 6.57? Would like to hear Yes/No because... insert answer

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Not sure when the actual peak was, But what I can say for absolutely certain is that all the jobs I enjoyed during SB have been getting worse ever since ShB.

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Originally Posted by Sani2341

Not sure when the actual peak was, But what I can say for absolutely certain is that all the jobs I enjoyed during SB have been getting worse ever since ShB.

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You know...I was thinking, come on, there's no way that's true. Surely at least ONE of the jobs I've had a sincere interest in and played since HW aren't worse off.

PLD: Rearranged to fit the 2 min. I feel nothing.
WAR: Removed crit bonus/most management from gauge, removed stance dancing, just unkillable with no effort in casual content. Fell Cleave is the epitome of too much of a good thing makes you sick.
DRK: Oh my god.
GNB: How does adding a single extra cartridge make a job this tangibly worse to play.
DRG: Outside of the complete cock ups with Mirage Dive/Jump, this job remains the least damaged, but some additions (second charge of Life Surge) feels unneeded. Original Geirsokgul is my preferred implementation of BotD. It won't matter anyway because it's getting gutted in a few months, so I can just assume I'm not going to have a good time.
SAM: Refuse to play SAM.
BRD: The Bloodletter change was enough. Removing interactivity within a kit is a pet peeve. Can't wait until DoTs are deleted entirely next patch, am i right guys.
SMN: why
SCH: Oh my god.

Reaper is new so I guess I'm not allowed to cite it...I guess MCH??? Was pretty ambivalent to the EW "changes", and the only reason I'm not more harsh on it now is because I still have a grudge over the Blood Weapon/Hypercharge stack mess. I know that someone out there is cursing me though for saying that. Old MCH with the procs, casts and ammo was actually really unique, I liked it and preferred it over heat, I just didn't know what I had until it was gone.

Eh...

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

WAR: Removed crit bonus/most management from gauge, removed stance dancing, just unkillable with no effort in casual content. Fell Cleave is the epitome of too much of a good thing makes you sick.

SCH: Oh my god.

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Yeah. self healing on WAR was, imho, much more interesting when you had the choice between fellcleave or healing. having both makes both feel less impactfull.

And yeah, poor Selene. hopefully she's comofrting miasma and bio in the cut ability jail.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I wish there was a place for more chaotic fights like King Mog Ex. It doesn’t have to be every extreme or savage or beyond, but if there was a good mix of more puzzle like fights and more chaotic ones, there’d at least be more options for players with different tastes.

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No wonder why Barb EX is regarded as the best trial in EW.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

No wonder why Barb EX is regarded as the best trial in EW.

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Barb might honestly be the best EW encounter. Not that everything else sucks, cause there are other good fights too, but Barb is on another level. Even still though, there’s something about the Mog fight that I really enjoyed.

The enrage is something your party had control over. Healing the fight is more dynamic because there are more sources of damage on not only the tanks but other players too, had Esuna mechanics, lots of dodgeable AOEs that you can afford to get hit by since it’s easy to lose track of them and this easy to get clipped by them, and it’s also not a fight where all 8 party members spend 95% of the fight inside the boss’ asshole.

As mild as the impact of everyone huddled in one spot inside the boss mechanically is (to which I mean, it’s not an inherently bad thing in terms of gameplay feel) it’s so bizarre to me how that looks. I like for players to have different places they want to be in, where ranged can actually be ranged while melee stay melee. Ramuh EX is another example. You want to stay spread out most of the fight, ranged wants to bait charm by staying far away, but also has to leave the water during thunder strikes. There’s orbs to collect, a tether to break by collecting orbs and a reason to clip players with your AOE to break charm. Why can’t more fights encourage movement? And not hyper strict movement, but flexible movement.

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Originally Posted by 4clubbedace

hw was unfun with a exploratory zone that was dogshit, two raid tiers that nearly killed the raid scene, and the very nature that "meta comps" were made near neccesary due to said killer raid tiers
DRK was mandatory , DRG + bard was too good, and ninja was too good esp with how enmity worked
AKA Monks int down was worthless, had no pierce synergy, and ninja took other melee slot, FU mnk

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I started right before 3.4 came out as a PLD main. A8s was my first savage. I got to experience day 1 Dun Scaith. I loved every single minute of all of it, even if PLD was "MNK tier." I felt like every job was the most fun to play and managing dots was enjoyable. I loved stance stancing, especially with healers. I loved NINs having what, 4 combos?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Counterpoint SMN is hot garbage and should only be used as a template for “how not to do any class, even a healer”

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I agree. I don't ask for SMN level difficulty because I enjoy current SMN. I ask because it's literally the bare minimum that SE could do. Even if you're the most turbo casual player on the planet who refuses to accept any amount of complexity on your healer because "Healer's job is to heal", A SMN level rotation is so brain-off that no one would have any grounds to complain.

As fair as compromises go, this is the least SE could do.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Do people really think Job-Design peaked in EW or at this specific patch 6.57? Would like to hear Yes/No because... insert answer

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No for me, every peak iteration I enjoyed of a job comes from an expansion prior, EW completely ruined every job for me.

The iterations I enjoyed the most are SB PLD, HW WAR, HW DRK, ShB GNB, SB WHM (lilies aside), HW SCH, SB AST, SB MNK, HW DRG, HW NIN, ShB SAM, HW BRD, HW MCH, ShB DNC, HW BLM, HW SMN, ShB RDM.

I think HW really was peak job design to me (except PLD, HW PLD was awful).

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Originally Posted by Grizzlpaw

I agree. I don't ask for SMN level difficulty because I enjoy current SMN. I ask because it's literally the bare minimum that SE could do. Even if you're the most turbo casual player on the planet who refuses to accept any amount of complexity on your healer because "Healer's job is to heal", A SMN level rotation is so brain-off that no one would have any grounds to complain.

As fair as compromises go, this is the least SE could do.

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I think I would legitimately argue that all four healers have more complex rotations than SMN does because inherently what makes a caster "complex" to me within XIV is how you optimize your movement and casting, and SMN only has that present within like 3 casts in its 60s loop.
I don't care to make the case for all of them because I think it's actually funny when you compare SMN to it's sibling SCH, and how SCH is literally just the old ARR Arcanist's DPS kit still (disregarding all of the removed parts like the Miasma line, Bane and Shadowflare.)

Optimally, SCH has 3 GCDs of non-cast free movement every 60s with 2 Bio refreshes and 1 Swiftcast Broil. Contrasting to SMN's 3 hardcasts per 60s (because you'll Swiftcast Slipstream, leaving you with 1 Ruin III and 2 Ruby Rites) that alone makes optimizing SCH much more complex, and doubly so when SCH's Aetherflow, which is another remaining part of the old Arcanist, is actual resource management with choice inherent in the kit, and SMN's is literally just "press button for damage :O" with zero resource management actually present anymore because of how you save Aetherflow for a minute so you have more to fit into the 2m burst. In ye olden days there was actually decision making in SMN's too because of the trade off between Energy Drain for MP (and 150 potency) versus Fester for flat damage that was double Energy Drain's; I bring that up because it's clearly an intended design of the original Aetherflow to have actual decision making versus what ACN/SMN have as Aetherflow now. Lastly, SCH wants to optimally hit its instant (Ruin II) as little as possible, and optimally SMN wants to cast as little as possible; of the two it is obviously much harder to fully optimize Ruin II out of SCH completely than it is to press Swiftcast and remove a hardcast from SMN's loop.

I wrote that not because I don't think you didn't know or understand that, I just can't believe the actual state of the current SMN lmao. And the fact that 5.0+ SCH is literally more complex than Endwalker SMN, and SCH has a 2 GCD DPS rotation it learns at level 2. The absolute state of this game rn lmfao

Energy drain is ironically super well designed for how much of a mess modern SCH is otherwise

The ability is the perfect potency to seriously make you consider that you want to use it (unlike ShB where it was a 10 potency gain to weave it into ruin 2 and 5 potency gain to clip it, ironically ShB SCH didn’t have enough weave windows because you had to use healing resources to create free weave space, a problem clip mage didn’t suffer from because clip mage barely weaved anything) but it’s not strong enough that you feel punished if you can’t afford to use it

SCH also has the right amount of totally free healing (blessing, illumination, whispering dawn, seraph and critdom) that organising energy drains is fulfilling without being overbearing on the cohealer

SCH is boring AF on the damage front but it’s far and away the best designed on the healing front

Before this subject gets buried, I’ll throw my favorite job iterations in for the sake of discussion:

PLD: 6.0-6.2
WAR: SB
DRK: HW
DRG: ShB
SAM: 6.0 (removing kaiten actually ruined the job)
MNK: 5.0-5.3
NIN: ShB (didn’t really play it before ShB)
BRD: SB by FAR. Damn near flawless
MCH: I have no favorite iteration.
DNC: ShB. Burst was more interesting due to melee/AoE procs during burst
BLM: tie between ShB and SB
RDM: ShB
SMN: ShB
SCH: SB
WHM: SB (this is more commentary on how bad WHM has always been than how good it’s ShB iteration was)
AST: SB. I miss old cards and buff extensions.

14’s job design USED to be second to none. I remember back in SB I got a friend of mine into the game specifically by talking about how fun jobs were. That’s is not the case at ALL anymore. In fact, it’s so bad at this point that I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone who wants anything other than a visual novel.

Though I enjoyed more ShB versions of many jobs, on a more macro level I preferred job design in Stormblood. .

I'll throw my favorite iterations as well. I'll only list ones I have clear preferences on since I don't enjoy Tanks or Melees.

DNC: EW - This one's my main. I was resistant to the changes at first with them losing melee, but the other skills made up for it. And this version has a goofy Improv that you can double weave, so that's fun.
BRD: SB - The kit was tied to the dots better and didn't have too many finishers.
MCH: SB/EW - I liked both equally.

SMN: SB - The job felt really good and tied to aetherflow. We are sorely missing a dot mage after its death. I like EW SMN, but it does not compare to SB.
RDM: SHB/EW - Hard to say, RDM has not changed much outside of gaining finishers, change to mana, and change to aoe skills. It's core gameplay is mostly the same since SB and it was good then as it is now.
BLM: ARR - This one is funny, I just like ARR BLM most for the proc gameplay. But BLM has been good throughout the multiple expac series and is in a great place now.

WHM: SB - Barring the tacked on lillies, This was the best WHM as it had its dps skills and a trim effective healing kit. I enjoyed Cleric Stance in HW, but I can see why it was not a great thing for the game.
SCH: SB - The kits were again, more trimmed and efficient. And Deployment Tactics was nice to use with Eye for an Eye.
AST: SB - My main at the time. Just the best AST has been, outside of having to deal with Sleeve Draw shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

GNB: How does adding a single extra cartridge make a job this tangibly worse to play.

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IMO I don't think its the 3rd bullet that makes GNB feel bad, its the fact Double Down costs 2 bullets. GNB's resource generation is surprisingly strict, between a 2m burst you'll only risk overcapping exactly once. Which means in any fight with downtime, or just mistakes on your end can make it very easy to not have enough bullets by the burst causing Doubledown to drift.
If Double Down was just a no-cost GCD, or just cost one bullet, I think GNB would feel significantly more forgiving to play.

I have to say I'm very torn because on the one hand I think EW Blm is the best feeling to play but I YEARN for the alternative timeline where we have our current kit but also never lost any of the more granular abilities/job aspects that we had to also juggle in Stormblood - lucid dreaming and diversion for aggro management, apocatastasis and manashift would be less clunky now with the extra instas we now have for weaving opportunities. For a treat I want the enochian refresh juggling to see a return as well but just the damage buff with diminishing returns on refreshing and do away with the old caveat that it locked you out of using F4/B4 if it was dropped. I Love BLM a lot but it feels like since the removal of these extra aspects our toolkit is full of answers to problems we don't really have anymore - no instafoul, all those utility spells needing to be weaved and only 1 charge of triple and no xenos to weave easier - THEY TOOK THE HEALTH PENALTY FROM MANAFONT/CONVERT give it back! I loved the risk!

I don't think there's a single job in EW that I consider to actually be at their peak. if you asked me before 6.3, I would've said PLD maybe but... lol, lmao even.

at best, a lot of the EW additions were marginal improvements that didn't really substantially evolve their jobs (outside of BLM with Paradox, even then I still have my gripes with EW BLM). at worst we have SMN that has become the community's go-to punching bag just because of how easy it is to make fun of that nothing of a job.

as for my main, MNK, all I can really do to summarize my feelings for it is to call it "frustrating." as if it took 2 steps forward and 2 steps back at the same time, thus ending up nowhere. I see a lot of people herald Monk as "one of the very few mechanically interesting jobs left in the game" but I honestly don't share that sentiment, it feels more like every other job was dragged down to its level in my eyes. I get it though, when jobs have gotten to the state they're in now people rightfully feel the need to preserve what little we have left but MNK has always had massive problems with its design. even the iteration that I personally consider to be the job's peak, Stormblood Monk, still had a lot of issues.

Let's see... for me... favorite iterations of jobs over the expansions:

DRK - HW
WAR - HW
PLD - EW (until they made the split weird and also fucked up Goring Blade. Mainly because it screams FFT Holy Sword and is a continuation of SHB's design in reality)
GNB - SHB - EW's version just feels like they tacked on Double Down and tried to up the ante on it, but it feels weird and worse.

DRG - I've actually liked all of DRG's iterations enough that I haven't felt terrible about playing it, but I will say I miss it feeling powerful which last time it did was in HW.
MNK - SHB
SAM - Stormblood
NIN - HW

BRD - ARR (I really like its Stormblood version too, but I miss it having Healer LB3)
MCH - Stormblood
DNC - No preference. I don't care much about Dancer.

RDM - Similar to DRG. They haven't screwed it up too much rotationally over the years. I admit I like its EW version the most. But I mean... it hasn't really lost anything from its old main kit anyway so... why wouldn't I?

BLM - I don't care at all about BLM.

SMN - SHB. I like phoenix even when it was bad and just felt it really jived with that expansion storyline wise for the WoL as well. I liked all of its iterations prior to SHB as well. I really miss Shadowflare still, though.

BLU - BLU hasn't changed :) But SHB I guess, since that's when they endorsed soloing by adding Basic Instinct.

WHM - HW RIP Aero III

SCH - HW, give us back Shadowflare, damn it!

AST - Late HW. Cards got OP. No silly unnecessary gauge that interfered with holding multiples and such. Stella, my beloved, was still in the game.


Not really paying enough attention to the game to know if Reaper and Sage have had any significant changes yet. I like them both as they are now, and do not have faith that they will be as enjoyable as they are now in the future.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

I see a lot of people herald Monk as "one of the very few mechanically interesting jobs left in the game" but I honestly don't share that sentiment, it feels more like every other job was dragged down to its level in my eyes. I get it though, when jobs have gotten to the state they're in now people rightfully feel the need to preserve what little we have left but MNK has always had massive problems with its design. even the iteration that I personally consider to be the job's peak, Stormblood Monk, still had a lot of issues.

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I think people herald MNK as one of the few mechanically interesting jobs remaining in the game because it is, in fact, one of the few remaining jobs that allow you to think and plan. DRG has this too, but it's getting reworked soon (presumably to remove any thinking required like every other job). Personally, I'm not particularly impressed with EW MNK either, but there's no denying that it requires more thought than other jobs like RPR. I don't think any iteration of MNK has had no issues, but SB MNK was peak because the playerbase were able to creatively use the job kit to overcome some of the problems (mainly TK being absolutely worthless when playing normally). In fact, if you think about it, a lot of the really cool interactions in old job kits were unintended design. Kind of sad, honestly.

Would anyone put the ShB or EW versions of the healers first if they experienced the old healers, I’m genuinely interested. The healer forums lean very strongly no but I’d be interested in the opinions of people who do

For me all three healers peaked in SB but the collective healer balanced peaked in ARR

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Would anyone put the ShB or EW versions of the healers first if they experienced the old healers, I’m genuinely interested. The healer forums lean very strongly no but I’d be interested in the opinions of people who do

For me all three healers peaked in SB but the collective healer balanced peaked in ARR

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If anyone would I’d imagine on average it would be white mage. But that’s more due to how bad WHM has always been than how “good” it’s ShB/EW variations are

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

If anyone would I’d imagine on average it would be white mage. But that’s more due to how bad WHM has always been than how “good” it’s ShB/EW variations are

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That’s fair, lilys seem beloved despite how………meh they are and how little they actually add to WHM

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Originally Posted by Bole

I disagree with Xeno’s cup analogy because as I said in my previous response, my job is not fun in the first few parts of DSR either. The content is still not making my experience fun. Maybe this is true for other roles.

To be honest, SCH did have problems in ShB that were fixed in EW, but it was at the expense of removing even more job depth. My best experience was probably in some 4.xx patch.

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You're speaking of fun (subjective), Xenosys is speaking about complexity/intricacy and difficulty overload.

I do not have fun in ultimates either because like you I care more about job intricacy than encounter mechanics or even difficulty (to a point).

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

This is XIV history that I know very little of as I joined late in end of SHB, its good to share insight. Hmm... Could take an angle? where you compare EW Savage encounters, compare them to previous expansions ( Coils/Alexander/Omega/Eden ) and how much more difficult it has become with mechanics and features such as hitbox increased, melee uptime, pulling as a Tank - then see if that difficulty we reached in EW justified all the simplifications we received... I would say with some fights I done at minilvl? Like Halicarnassus, Shiva Eden, Oracle, Kefka, ExDeath, a lot of streamlining wasn't required? or as well thought through as possible. I leave out Ultimate for the actual experts on it, as I found no joy in doing them, thus I have no expertise on Ultimate.

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The hardest fights used to be the puzzle mechanic fights in savage usually, so the last fight of each tier. You can compare them to current 4S p2, 8S p2, 12S p2, etc. Those aren't the hardest anymore by far. Mechanically, things like Superchain, Gorgons, or even Pinax etc (aka doorbosses), can feel a lot more involved, fast paced and very stringent on mobility (which is where big hitboxes and less cast times are probably meant to help... rip RDM/BLM). More generally, I feel that the difficulty has increased tenfold for the earlier fights of tiers rather than the last fights. P5S was noticeable already but P9S has felt especially gruesome to prog for a first fight and required for most of the people I talked to, including myself, almost twice or thrice the time then older equivalent fights like O5S, O9S, etc... Even some extreme trials have increased in difficulty, like Golbez notably. Even P1S, while easy, was a lot harder than the very first savage fights of older expansions like A1S, O1S (lol), or even E1S, just because it had an actual puzzle mechanic (a puzzle in a first fight??? even if easier, that's literally never heard of so far). Now take a look at P10S and tell me if that wasn't gruesome for a 2nd fight in a tier?

I'm not saying it's systematic and noticeable everywhere, and difficulty is a very subjective thing, but it directly ties to my own experience. I am a semi hardcore raider that has raided since Stormblood, and the more expansions released and the more I felt that it become actually difficult for me to follow and learn. Maybe I'm getting old? But more seriously, especially Abyssos and Anabaseios have proven excruciatingly painful for me when it came to my most hated mechanic so far that is Superchain (I'm still unable to properly trudge through 2A and 2B without callouts and delaying burst). It's been especially frustrating and depressing because jobs and especially the battle system is supposed to be easier right? Yes, but no. It took me long enough to actually admit that yes, fights are getting harder, are shifting in paradigm and asking for a lot more precise DDR paying attention to countless things at the same time on the platform and the encounter compared to previously: you used to pay a lot more attention to your rotation (and various things like enmity for tanks, MP for casters or rPhys, etc), while nowadays a lot of your attention is required on the arena itself. My point is that, I enjoy RPG mechanics and player agency and rotational choice much more than I value encounter mechanics. Incidentally, it also makes me very good at the former and pretty average to sometimes passable at the latter.

Needless to say, I hate that shift.

Note on Ultimates: I have progged UwU halfway, TEA past phase 2, and DSR up to time reset. This has been enough for me to say that those fights, while definitely very difficult mechanically on top of additional things to deal with like short mini bursts and multi target scenari, just do not respect my time. You eventually end up having to go through 10+ minutes of fight again and again and again just to have the luxury of maybe see 10 more seconds of prog where you're currently stuck at. I feel this is artificially inflated difficulty at best, and I do not find this enjoyable, but a lot of people seem to, so props to them.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

This is my main gripe with it all indeed. It doesn't feel balanced, it feels very heavily loaded on mechanics and as we know? most of XIV's mechanics are dull unless you go High-end content, making most the content extra dull... I know Square can do better then this, they even showed they have. It's really a matter of if they will. There is no negative to be had for Job-Gameplay to be improved for the Players-Experience, mhm

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This also indirectly ties in with what I said above: while it's true for high end challenging content, it's not for casual content (roulettes, storymodes, dungeons etc). Difficulty has remained at a baseline level and hasnt much changed over expansions. If anything, the EW Alliance Raids have been a boring cakewalk comparatively to the more involved Mhach, Ivalice and Nier. Meanwhile, there is little left of the battle system and jobs have at least for some of them been very dumbed down, and/or dullified.

It seems to feed into a toxic logic of player castes where casuals stay in casual content, midcore players in extreme trials at best, and hardcore in savage and potentially ultimate.

YoshiP said it himself: go play ultimate if you're not happy with easier difficulty segments..........

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

If anyone would I’d imagine on average it would be white mage. But that’s more due to how bad WHM has always been than how “good” it’s ShB/EW variations are

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WHM does seem to be quite well-received. It honestly wouldn't surprise me to see SE alter the lily system into 3 similar systems for the other 3 healers in DT.

Well that thing, SE really likes looking at the numbers and dovating a lot changes based on them. With that in mind, a far majority of the popular/most played jobs are some of the easiest to play/learn, unfortunately because of this Devs genuinely believe theyre in right. Are folks picking up these jobs because theyre easy or because theres a belief that it would be dumb not to? Dunno, but as it stands the current system of combat is very much looking to stay...

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

a far majority of the popular/most played jobs are some of the easiest to play/learn

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I would like to see sources on this. Im actually curious if this holds any truth.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

WHM does seem to be quite well-received. It honestly wouldn't surprise me to see SE alter the lily system into 3 similar systems for the other 3 healers in DT.

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To be totally frank, I’d be okay with that. Especially if it’s that or every healer just gets another unneeded heal CD.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

I would like to see sources on this. Im actually curious if this holds any truth.

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I can't say for this game, but it always held true in Wow. The Dad spec was far and away the most popular spec because the majority of Wow's population was extremely casual. Given how this game leans more towards casual with all the social additions like housing and emotes, etc. I could see this game having a similar thing happening.

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Originally Posted by Valence

...The hardest fights used to be the puzzle mechanic fights in savage usually, so the last fight of each tier. / More generally, I feel that the difficulty has increased tenfold for the earlier fights of tiers rather than the last fights... (snip)

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The Puzzle-type Fights in EW were not exciting for me & definitely do not feel difficult to do, at least not vs E4/8/12S. Rather? I believe its difficulty is loaded towards the blind-prog part of it vs player execution after its puzzled out. (with recording tools + reviewing footage etc). P3/5/10S stood out for me as the harder encounters. coincidently also the once I loved the most.

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Originally Posted by Valence

(snip) My point is that, I enjoy RPG mechanics and player agency and rotational choice much more than I value encounter mechanics. Incidentally, it also makes me very good at the former and pretty average to sometimes passable at the latter. Needless to say, I hate that shift.

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Agreed. I dislike that Mastery over your rotation or Job nuances (of what's left) isn't made satisfying in EW or I sense it not being the devs goal vs optimizing the joy out of your ASWD buttons - movement. Here's my hotbar setup on how I do PvE content. You might notice things are gone? It's because its to dumb... Just Feint and Thirdeye every raidwide, don't even need to know if its ready it probably lines up. Don't need to look at anything, just faceroll.

https://i.ibb.co/5rV3M2X/hotbar.png

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Originally Posted by Valence

Note on Ultimates: I have progged UwU halfway, TEA past phase 2, and DSR up to time reset. / I feel this is artificially inflated difficulty at best, and I do not find this enjoyable, but a lot of people seem to, so props to them. (snip)

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DSR up until phase 2 is where I was like " Okey Ultimate is not for me ". Not because its to easy or to difficult? it doesn't respect my time for titles and ugly Katana's I don't care for. My experience was with a group that forced us to watch a screenshared-Discord and reviewing recorded pulls we did, explaining each movement of each partymember... at this point I don't even feel like I'm playing XIV at all vs mind-rehearsing an excessively long dance. Props indeed for people who like it, it's not for me.

I wished Job mastery was more rewarding or felt more satisfying vs the only PhD you need in this game which is " Just don't die forehead ".

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

To be totally frank, I’d be okay with that. Especially if it’s that or every healer just gets another unneeded heal CD.

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The lily system basically is just an extra oGCD anyway

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Would anyone put the ShB or EW versions of the healers first if they experienced the old healers, I’m genuinely interested. The healer forums lean very strongly no but I’d be interested in the opinions of people who do

For me all three healers peaked in SB but the collective healer balanced peaked in ARR

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I prefer ShB WHM to SB WHM though they're both better than ARR and HW WHM. WHM were kind of in a bad place until they fixed our MP issues and gave us more mobility and the lily system was garbage at first because it didn't fill automatically but depended on rarely used abilities.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

I would like to see sources on this. Im actually curious if this holds any truth.

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Not hard to find on the website that makes yoshiP angry. Half the caster playerbase plays SMN, and half the rPhys playerbase plays DNC.

For casual content, especially roulette, my source is that I made it the fuck up.meme (but more seriously, I always stumble with one of those two jobs...).

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Originally Posted by Bole

I like Shadowbringers WHM more than Stormblood WHM. The fact that early 4.0 WHM wasn’t an April fools joke convinced me that 14 doesn’t have a dedicated healer designer.

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This was the director's face when someone asked in a pre ShB Q&A if they could make WhM suck less (whoever that guy was, this was chef's kiss)

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...Zf_-_Imgur.gif

Needless to say, WhM isn't exactly a shining example of the good Stormblood's designs.

Being a ShB baby I really can't answer that question.

Suffice to say for me, almost everything in ShB Healer plays better vs their EW iteration. The only things that EW healers have that I like about are only Expedience & Macrocosmos (minus their nonexistent MP cost, it should've cost you 3.6k MP to use).

SGE? Idk her. /s