AOE Spam Fest <Please remove it>

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Originally Posted by Churchill

Pretty bad when Analhelm is making the most sense

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that's a funny joke!~

Oh, ok and what point do I have in killing those nms over and over and over and over and over and over again? I can't level up off of them~

I think if the normal small nms should be how normal mobs should be. At least they are SOME what interesting. Though, there is no point in fighting them, they are not good to level off of.

What they should do if they have groups of mobs, have them stick together in a group of 1-4 mobs. One mob of the group will be a tougher(leader) mob than the other 3 mobs. The group of mobs should take at least a few minutes to kill.

Example: Billy goat and three nanny's , the nanny's will follow the billy around(without a leash, there should be no leash on mobs). While you have the tank, tank the billy, you can have everyone else on the lesser. As you kill one off the group gets stronger, use different abilities(keep players on their toes). So you will have to use CC skills, debuffs, and all that other nonsense that you people don't like.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Okay, this is what Elder Mosshorn and other NMs are for, not mooks. There should be more of them, but that's what they're for.

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Let me get this right.

What is the point of "Mook" monsters then anyways to just exist? Screenfiller? I guess adventurers go out to pick pansies and venture into a instanced box or notorious monsters spawn area whenever they are feeling like actually adventuring.

I guess I'll just leave it at that, it's a matter of agreeing to disagree.

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What is the point of "Mook" monsters then anyways to just exist?

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a "mook" is a term for rank and file filler monsters in an RPG or action game; they're the weaker enemies that appear in large numbers all over the world. They're not meant to be difficult. They're a resource, not a challenge to be overcome. In this case the resource is EXP and trash that is usually vendored for money or used for low level crafting.

In an old school RPG, these are all the random encounters you get while travelling; not the scripted or otherwise special encounters that are specifically there to provide a challenge to the player. In an MMO, these are the monsters that dot the landscape, waiting to have their faces beaten in by adventurers. They are sometimes also speed bumps while travelling, and mooks above your level range are road blocks.

We've all grinded mooks a miillion times before in RPGs and MMOs; hence why I'd prefer the effort be focused on the content you gain access to after you go through all of that.

Just because other games have these mobs as "mook" or whatever you call it, doesn't mean XIV has to do the same.

I'd love for all content to be somewhat challenging, even leveling up. I played in the Guild Wars 2 beta, and leveling up on normal mobs is fun and some of them are actually a challenge, even the one near my level. Why can't XIV have the same?

I haven't played one game where leveling up had any challenge to it other than reaching the next level before you ran out of time to play. Leveling isn't the reason I play these games, therefore I really don't mind it at all nor care for it to change. I'm here to splo stuff up and battle epic bosses and overcome the perils of dungeons, not kill 4000 worms and kobolds.

Even if leveling was a fun and challenging component, I'd call you crazy if you preferred the latter over the former.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'd call you crazy if you preferred the latter over the former.

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Colour me crazy then, I enjoyed leveling in XI far more than "Endgame" content because I could do it on my terms whenever I wanted with whomever I wanted instead of requiring the "best" to get anything done like XIV is.

Endgame doesn't reward doing things the fun way it rewards them for doing it the way they think is right. I can't gather my friends and go whup Ifrit if they aren't the exact combo I'm looking for. At least open world open ended content allows me to go fight that "Super mook" (Yeah that's what I'll call them from now on)

I don't have to worry about arbitrary time-limits to get proper loot pools, me and my friends have all the time in the world to kill whatever we want however we want. Of course permiting we are strong enough to tackle the monsters but at least I don't have a ticking time-bomb over my head or a single spawn enemy to contest over.

I guess I enjoy the freedom that difficult but open content gives me. I don't want my world monsters to exist just for the purpose of being fodder for my axe I want to earn that loot wether I do it alone or with friends I want the challenge and the options to fight things in the world.

I don't want to be in a highly rail-roaded instanced event with a time limit that encourages class stacking. i want to have fun while I level my character and take my time learning my class the ins and outs the intracacies of everything while I play not skip everything until I hit 50 then start learning.

I loved being able to stop at 50 in XI and still feel powerfull (Not as much as a 75) But I was still considerably stronger than I was at level 40, 30, 20, 10, 1 and I had hardships to face to grow even more powerfull. At any point of the game I had tons of stuff to do I didn't have to wait until max level for interesting events to be available I could sustain myself and my crafts before being maxed out.

This game lacks character progression and the half-hearted leveling system is to blame for it partialy as well as the community that sits back and accepts that the game should only start being fun at 50.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Colour me crazy then, I enjoyed leveling in XI far more than "Endgame" content because I could do it on my terms whenever I wanted with whomever I wanted instead of requiring the "best" to get anything done like XIV is.

Endgame doesn't reward doing things the fun way it rewards them for doing it the way they think is right. I can't gather my friends and go whup Ifrit if they aren't the exact combo I'm looking for. At least open world open ended content allows me to go fight that "Super mook" (Yeah that's what I'll call them from now on)

I don't have to worry about arbitrary time-limits to get proper loot pools, me and my friends have all the time in the world to kill whatever we want however we want. Of course permiting we are strong enough to tackle the monsters but at least I don't have a ticking time-bomb over my head or a single spawn enemy to contest over.

I guess I enjoy the freedom that difficult but open content gives me. I don't want my world monsters to exist just for the purpose of being fodder for my axe I want to earn that loot wether I do it alone or with friends I want the challenge and the options to fight things in the world.

I don't want to be in a highly rail-roaded instanced event with a time limit that encourages class stacking. i want to have fun while I level my character and take my time learning my class the ins and outs the intracacies of everything while I play not skip everything until I hit 50 then start learning.

I loved being able to stop at 50 in XI and still feel powerfull (Not as much as a 75) But I was still considerably stronger than I was at level 40, 30, 20, 10, 1 and I had hardships to face to grow even more powerfull. At any point of the game I had tons of stuff to do I didn't have to wait until max level for interesting events to be available I could sustain myself and my crafts before being maxed out.

This game lacks character progression and the half-hearted leveling system is to blame for it partialy as well as the community that sits back and accepts that the game should only start being fun at 50.

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This^^^

And pretty much nothing else. People are losing touch with the point in leveling. Character progression. Now they are just viewing it as a chore more than anything.

I remeber when this game first came out and I was one of the few people that had protect and shell. That was "rank" 16 at the time and it took a lot to level errr rank up back then lol.I remember when I could finally do Totorak, and completing it and getting some new gear was awesome.

Now, it's a race to 50, which is a damn shame.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I haven't played one game where leveling up had any challenge to it other than reaching the next level before you ran out of time to play. Leveling isn't the reason I play these games, therefore I really don't mind it at all nor care for it to change. I'm here to blow stuff up and battle epic bosses and overcome the perils of dungeons, not kill 4000 worms and kobolds.

Even if leveling was a fun and challenging component, I'd call you crazy if you preferred the latter over the former.

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I think the point being made time and time again is that FFXIV has something of an advantage in the possibility of making points in leveling as much a goalpoint as endgame (not just for those who already enjoy leveling whole-heartedly), or at least much more enjoyable than in other MMOs. However, it would take some adjustment. (I personally think playing on something unique like that would do more for the game than the cycling additions of new endgame content, though the latter is basically necessary until new concepts are made for endgame.)

Additionally, that some challenge is what makes it fun. In this case, you can definitely consider challenge and difficulty as being defined separately; a challenge must be surmountable, even if it is hard to do so. It doesn't generally mean great length (in objective units of time) or being face-rolled by bosses disguised as mobs. The goal is the depth, which should contribute as much to "fun" as to "challenge".

As you said, no amount of seconds, as a rule, has any place in the time it takes to fell a mob group. It's just the depth. If that depth can be had quicker, you'd probably see fewer complaints about length. But given the responsiveness of the game, both in what's to be fixed in 2.0 and the cooldowns and chaining to be retained in 2.0, it's either going to take more time, or more aspects of battle revamped.

I think in addition to either of these though, additional, newly conceptualized, systems could be helpful, whether they have to do with summoning, following challenges, spawning behavior dependent on area death rates, additional group behavior, or anything similar.

Saying people are losing touch with the point of leveling and then claiming the point of leveling is character progression is a great example of your first point.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

a "mook" is a term for rank and file filler monsters in an RPG or action game; they're the weaker enemies that appear in large numbers all over the world. They're not meant to be difficult. They're a resource, not a challenge to be overcome. In this case the resource is EXP and trash that is usually vendored for money or used for low level crafting.

In an old school RPG, these are all the random encounters you get while travelling; not the scripted or otherwise special encounters that are specifically there to provide a challenge to the player. In an MMO, these are the monsters that dot the landscape, waiting to have their faces beaten in by adventurers. They are sometimes also speed bumps while travelling, and mooks above your level range are road blocks.

We've all grinded mooks a miillion times before in RPGs and MMOs; hence why I'd prefer the effort be focused on the content you gain access to after you go through all of that.

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This i loved XI but if they wanna fight one mob for long ass time and say it took a good strat they are completely wrong. People keep saying dumb shit like Leveling up should train you for end game, well it should not XI combat was so slow and dull that a party fighting an Crab in a exp pt in the dunes was no different than fighting genbu rly cause the strat didn't change much.

The mob balance in XI was very poor, at the start of the game they train you to solo then once you head to a stronger area all mobs suddenly become elite, at this point taking on an EM mob will most likely result in your death depending on your class, so the point is we don't need these type of mobs everywhere in the game but they are welcome. This game also has a few mobs who are hard to kill and take a while to do so but people skip over them, H-1's Ghost in AV, Peiste in CC, Lvl 55+ mobs in strong hold the list goes on.

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Originally Posted by Churchill

Saying people are losing touch with the point of leveling and then claiming the point of leveling is character progression is a great example of your first point.

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Leveling does progress your character. How is the game failing at that?

1. Not directed at you, good to see you're keeping to SOP
2. Leveling is a time sink and serves no other purpose, nor should it
3. If people want to be prepared for endgame, then store the majority of your AF gear, get to melding, and read some guides.

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Originally Posted by Churchill

1. Not directed at you, good to see you're keeping to SOP
2. Leveling is a time sink and serves no other purpose, nor should it
3. If people want to be prepared for endgame, then store the majority of your AF gear, get to melding, and read some guides.

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1. WTF?
2. Leveling gives players the chance to learn the game's mechanics, how fights are done, how abilities works, how to work as a team, etc. If it's such a time sink, maybe you should go level your other classes...
3. What does this even have to do with the topic?

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Originally Posted by Churchill

1. Not directed at you, good to see you're keeping to SOP
2. Leveling is a time sink and serves no other purpose, nor should it
3. If people want to be prepared for endgame, then store the majority of your AF gear, get to melding, and read some guides.

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But then, hypothetically, why would one want to rush along to the endgame of a world that isn't appealing enough to make leveling fun in and of itself? To progress an nonexistent story or one with no basis in the actual world? To put myself through chores with far less freedom so I that I can be more prepared for something also of few choices?

Any solid game will have enjoyable leveling, or generally won't improve by any drastic margin upon ending leveling. I can squeeze out an addiction for otherwise pointless gear-farming from almost any MMO. I want what's FF in it, and that begins for me at the start. I'll enjoy it until it's gone, and then switch to endgame when it's ended.

That's not to say that I don't think leveling, like endgame, could be made more fun or memorable. I just don't consider it a prerequisite to a game that starts "50 levels in". It has enjoyability in itself, generally considered the goal of a game.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

1. WTF?
2. Leveling gives players the chance to learn the game's mechanics, how fights are done, how abilities works, how to work as a team, etc. If it's such a time sink, maybe you should go level your other classes...
3. What does this even have to do with the topic?

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Numbers here referring to Churchill's post:
1. Was to someone else, see the above quote.
2. Was a well-stated opinion, whether in agreement or not.
3. Was dependent on three -- the practical example of the same line of thought.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But then, hypothetically, why would one want to rush along to the endgame of a world that isn't appealing enough to make leveling fun in and of itself? To progress an nonexistent story or one with no basis in the actual world? To put myself through chores with far less freedom so I that I can be more prepared for something also of few choices?

Any solid game will have enjoyable leveling, or generally won't improve by any drastic margin upon ending leveling. I can squeeze out an addiction for otherwise pointless gear-farming from almost any MMO. I want what's FF in it, and that begins for me at the start. I'll enjoy it until it's gone, and then switch to endgame when it's ended.

That's not to say that I don't think leveling, like endgame, could be made more fun or memorable. I just don't consider it a prerequisite to a game that starts "50 levels in". It has enjoyability in itself, generally considered the goal of a game.

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I'll preface with not all of this being claimed by you, but at some point in the thread.

Leveling is never fun though, it's either solo grind (WoW), AFK PL to 99 (FFXI now), form a static so your XP doesn't suck and you don't lose your mind (FFXI old) or get PL'd to 30/35, Raptors -> Natalan/hopefully get into a real spiritbond PT so that last 500k doesn't take 10 hours (FFXIV)

If the proposal was kill one crazy, wacky, incredibly fun monster and gain an entire level, sure, I'd be down for that. If the proposal is to force a pseudo-FFXI old type system where you did coordinated actions to kill stuff (which wasn't as much game design as poor game design*) then I'm not really interested. Most people couldn't skillchain, magic burst or gear properly and that's on top of the fact that such a coordinated system demanded specific jobs - meaning the brunt of your playtime was spent shouting or waiting for an invite. This is counter intuitive to any "game" because games are for fun, relaxation, or becoming the very best, like no one ever was.

The kind of memorable fights you want for leveling up, creative mechanics and gorgeous scenery are great and would be awesome if they could be realistically implemented into a game that wasn't gear dependent, player dependent, etc. If this was FFXIV Cloud Strikes Back at Cecil, sure. The more creative, complicated, etc that you get the more frustrating it can be as well. I spent 1.5h going from 45-50 on WAR, I spent 11h going from 43-50 on BRD. That's a huge disparity and complicating fight mechanics only lengthens the gap between a good and a bad party.

I like XIV's system. Grab a healer or two, a tank class, and start running around murdering stuff. Effortless, if I go afk the party isn't over, decent xp even if the party is terrible. It's even fun in a good group of people, and usually not migraine inducing in a bad group.

*XI's system was never "designed" to solely utilize skillchains and magic bursts, it was designed to be incredibly slow as everything in that game was designed to be an incredible time sink. Skillchain/Magic burst was developed by players as the only reasonable way to XP in such a terrible system. People were TP burning as early as late 2003, then again when Dynamis was released and then again when merits were released. ToAU was a godsend as you could begin TP burning as early as Lv50 and maintain it until Lv75.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

1. WTF?
2. Leveling gives players the chance to learn the game's mechanics, how fights are done, how abilities works, how to work as a team, etc. If it's such a time sink, maybe you should go level your other classes...
3. What does this even have to do with the topic?

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2. Yes the first part is true but it doesn't teach you how to play the job correctly.

If we're going to discuss how XP partying teaches you the game mechanics and adapts you to them - why are we seeking to gain experience in an environmental completely different than the events and battles to which we gain experience for?

This is what gets me when people complain bout 'XP Parties being AoE Fests.' Well, to be honest, even extended fights in field XP isn't actually gaining experience, beyond the normal pacing you would get duoing with someone.

If it's group dynamics you want to learn, it would be best to have training sessions that actually have objectives - that way, you might actually gain some experience while getting some experience. :heyiheardyoulike:

Lol exp party doesnt prepare anyone for endgame, its the same as school. They only teaches you basic, but it entirely different lesson once u get out to endgame/worklife. That is why there are still many terrible players even if they level "legit" and there are also some that get PL'd the whole way and still play better than most, it comes back to the person itself.

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Originally Posted by Churchill

Leveling is never fun though

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Well for me personally.. leveling within a group is the most fun part of FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Lol exp party doesnt prepare anyone for endgame, its the same as school. They only teaches you basic, but it entirely different lesson once u get out to endgame/worklife. That is why there are still many terrible players even if they level "legit" and there are also some that get PL'd the whole way and still play better than most, it comes back to the person itself.

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That's a rudimentary flaw in the education system. They try to teach you how to 'learn' but the truth of the matter is they're just teaching to the tests. There's rarely any valuable substance in the construct of your common US education system. Why the hell would we duplicate it here when it been shown as heavily flawed in practice in real life?

There are persons with above average skills, yes, but if the average skill is failure then why teach in that method? Instilling the basics and the situation awareness gained by raiding early will instill a 'muscle memory' into players on top of giving those who enjoy EXP parties the greater depth they desire. Doing so with a system that allows a variety of objectives that can be chosen (like the Leve system) also allows those of differing tastes the ability to pursue their preferences.

But field mob grinding itself is fundamentally flawed as a basis because it is, by design, and exploitative process - find the place that yields the best XP, then dominate that area as best you can until you tire out or reach your goal - hoping that no competition for the camp arrives and harms your success. That's the wrong kind of competitiveness to encourage.

As I just said in another thread, EXP does not and is not meant to teach you how to play endgame. EXP grinding and endgame are fundamentally different. Endgame battles are much more elaborate and scripted= Even in the games with the most sophisticated character advancement mechanics, endgame is still different from what you spend your time doing while growing your character. The best way to teach endgame is to experience it, try something, fail, and try again. That's the best way to learn in general.

And as I retorted in that thread, that's a flawed system to build upon.

Experience point parties, though they are currently a mundane practice, don't have to be.

You can teach the basics of raiding, rather than mindless mob culling (And even if the battles are slightly more dynamic, it will become mindless.) by giving a more dynamic XP system that is similar to raiding or boss running. Players will then be accustomed to it when those said raids do happen, and they'll be able to handle the chaos better.

Your comparison is: "It's ok to teach a child how to walk, then throw him into a deep running river so he can learn to swim." It might work for some people, but for others, you just traumatized them into never wanting to do it, or, because they have to learn the basics in an environment that everyone is going to be stressed out in, they're going to be frustrated by their slower learning rate.

Why not ease them into the process and give the people who are calling for more in depth combat an avenue to do, for their experience.

Those who still want a mindless grind will still get it if we leave most the field mobs alone. And those who want to skip the 'practice' already have many ways of doing so.

They just really need to add some content you can do in the meantime for leveling, an alternative to xp parties and levequests(since newer players are kind of screwed when it comes to starting this game... levequest allowances kind of doesn't cut it)

If people had more ways to level, more fun ways to level then AoE grind parties may not be around as much. I too find them boring.

I made a post with a concept idea regarding something that could greatly help this game, but the funny thing about these forums is people would rather flame each other then contribute to ideas to improve the game across the board.

The flat fact is we need more things to do from 1-50 that will reward us both with items and xp. Otherwise people just abuse the mindless AoE grinds as much as they can since that's the only way they will see content.

SE calls it success, other MMO developers call it a flaw, and since SE currently has the lowest MMO population out of all pay-to-play MMOs and even a lot of free-to-play MMOs it kind of says something.

Just for the record, there is a difference between a normal AOE encounter and an AOE spam fest. My main concern is regarding the spam fest.

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And as I retorted in that thread, that's a flawed system to build upon.

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There's nothing flawed about learning from mistakes. It's the most basic and effective way to learn. Besides, anything you really need to know can and should be explained by the people you're running with. Any smart person is going to ask questions and learn how it works. If you get people who don't do this, EXP would never teach it to them- they're not willing to learn.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

That's a rudimentary flaw in the education system. They try to teach you how to 'learn' but the truth of the matter is they're just teaching to the tests. There's rarely any valuable substance in the construct of your common US education system. Why the hell would we duplicate it here when it been shown as heavily flawed in practice in real life?

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But if endgame were to be the only thing worthwhile in the end, then nothing but teaching to the tests will really be applicable to the game. Until there are actual ways to play once fully leveled as approximately lucrative in multiple aspects as raiding, there will only be one very narrow set of tests to measure one's learning. All of the true learning will go to waste.

That said, I think the solution lies in some breakthrough concept somewhere on pseudo-freeform gameplay, or whatever it takes such that leveling is not just gaining levels, but lively and inventive character progression -- and not just along the exact same lines as everyone else. And it must exist in such a way that it isn't bottle-necked through such closed-in and unoriginal MMO conventions as raiding alone. Raiding's fun--don't get me wrong--but I feel like this game definitely needs more, if not the whole of the MMO market soon enough.

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Originally Posted by Xikeroth

They just really need to add some content you can do in the meantime for leveling, an alternative to xp parties and levequests(since newer players are kind of screwed when it comes to starting this game... levequest allowances kind of doesn't cut it)

If people had more ways to level, more fun ways to level then AoE grind parties may not be around as much. I too find them boring.

I made a post with a concept idea regarding something that could greatly help this game, but the funny thing about these forums is people would rather flame each other then contribute to ideas to improve the game across the board.

The flat fact is we need more things to do from 1-50 that will reward us both with items and xp. Otherwise people just abuse the mindless AoE grinds as much as they can since that's the only way they will see content.

SE calls it success, other MMO developers call it a flaw, and since SE currently has the lowest MMO population out of all pay-to-play MMOs and even a lot of free-to-play MMOs it kind of says something.

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This. Heading to your post now, Xikeroth.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But if endgame were to be the only thing worthwhile in the end, then nothing but teaching to the tests will really be applicable to the game. Until there are actual ways to play once fully leveled as approximately lucrative in multiple aspects as raiding, there will only be one very narrow set of tests to measure one's learning. All of the true learning will go to waste.

That said, I think the solution lies in some breakthrough concept somewhere on pseudo-freeform gameplay, or whatever it takes such that leveling is not just gaining levels, but lively and inventive character progression -- and not just along the exact same lines as everyone else. And it must exist in such a way that it isn't bottle-necked through such closed-in and unoriginal MMO conventions as raiding alone. Raiding's fun--don't get me wrong--but I feel like this game definitely needs more, if not the whole of the MMO market soon enough.

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The problem is the games used to rely on players for that. Players made levelling fun (or not) because the "character" was a lot more important to gamers back then. They didn't need the game to give them anything but cities, caves/dungeons, and monsters. But nowadays, for whatever reason, the culture has changed a lot and gamers now *need* the game to provide things it didn't have to before. As a developer you're scratching your head trying to figure out "how" you can mimic what gamers used to invent themselves. Blizzard found a temporary answer with quest-chains and raids. After all, in the days of EQ, Asheron's Call, and the like, players used to group up with friends and go on "adventures". Creating quests-chains seemed like a pretty good way of recreating that. So far so good. Next was Raids, which was an amped-up version of the dungeons players would go explore. Sweeeet. No wonder WoW became such a huuuge and instant hit. It adapted to the change in culture.

But now, that isn't enough, people are bored of that. As a developer its back to scratching your head. People want fun, dynamics, all of the things players USED to provide themselves with no guidance from the game. Now the game has to provide it. But how? ANET (GW 2) actually had a really good idea imo in terms of level progression. Everything from quests, to level-synced zones/content, to pvp would provide you xp towards your levels. That seemed somewhat related to your suggestion so i threw it out there. It's freeform in that you do what you want, and all of it contributes to leveling. Even crafting/gathering xp goes towards your character's levelling progression. Seems like a good step in the right direction to me.

people rush to cap to do boss fights = boring as xp'ing. all mmo's for the past 8 years been doing the same thing over and over.
there needs to be more stuff to do that make you setup like a XP party, caravan & hamlet was a nice idea but horribly executed, hope there fixed in 2.0. strongholds sound epic but just turned into a xp spam fest and no one wants the gear anymore but there sentinel gear.
be nice if 2.0 adds alittle bit of game to the garbage they have in version 1.

"You can beat your average monster with about 5 or 6 weapon skills, so your typical battle wraps up in around 15 or 20 seconds."

Spamming is still in guys ;)