Players are already lowering their bar for Downtrail

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

you know, shb was a build-up story that within its base game still managed to be an emotionally charged and powerful story connecting some of the few loose threads from HW and also opening up a brandnew story on the ascians. we shouldnt assume dawntrail cant still be good or pull that off.

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Of course, Downtrail will be good, it will be full of cutscenes with G'raha Tia eating tacos, Y'shtola lore dumping and explaining everything for us, Urianger quoting weird archaic poems, and Estinien saying "Hmph" for the fiftieth time. Oh, one simply cannot wait for these top-notch storytelling sequences.

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

Of course, Downtrail will be good, it will be full of cutscenes with G'raha Tia eating tacos, Y'shtola lore dumping and explaining everything for us, Urianger quoting weird archaic poems, and Estinien saying "Hmph" for the fiftieth time. Oh, one simply cannot wait for these top-notch storytelling sequences.

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As long as it motivates you to create an army to entertain us, I'm in

The stakes were never really that high until Shadowbringers. I don't know why people talk about stakes as though it's the end all be all of any story. It's not like the war of man and dragon was universe ending. Liberating Doma wasn't world ending. The constant parroting of stakes feels like this "mic drop" thing that doesn't really work, like at all. Stories are either compelling or they aren't. DawnTrail's promo doesn't give the average person any reason to be particularly excited and that's where the feedback of lowering expectations is coming from, not the fact it's post Endwalker. Plenty of games and anime have tone shift arcs that have their own stakes and are still interesting.

Maybe 7.0 is amazing it's just that the team doesn't seem confident about it via marketing so far. And no it isn't just because it's a teaser either. And it undoubtedly has tons of content. So I am mentally preparing myself for the "XIV was always about it's gameplay and never story" defenses i.e. the polar opposite of the defenses today.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

The stakes were never really that high until Shadowbringers. I don't know why people talk about stakes as though it's the end all be all of any story. It's not like the war of man and dragon was universe ending

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The Warring Triad were an existential threat to the entire planet. Even weakened by their containment, all three of them going free at once would in all likelihood have meant the end of the world.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Maybe 7.0 is amazing it's just that the team doesn't seem confident about it via marketing so far. And no it isn't just because it's a teaser either. And it undoubtedly has tons of content. So I am mentally preparing myself for the "XIV was always about it's gameplay and never story" defenses i.e. the polar opposite of the defenses today.

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The marketing is happening the same way it was happening pre-COVID.

NA FanFest announces the title and tosses out some generic teasers but little in the way of solid information.

EU FanFest gets a little more tacked onto the teaser trailer, usually with title music finished but lacking lyrics and/or final vocalist. One of the jobs gets positively identified while the other job(s) have hints revealed. If there's a new race, that's shown. We start getting more screenshots of environments and maybe a few boss names. We'll get a couple of samples of zone music.

JP FanFest unleashes the flood of what information they plan to share (other than job design and battle systems, which is media tour). We get the completed trailer, information about whatever jobs weren't already revealed, screenshots from zones not already revealed except the final zone and any other zone they consider too spoilery. More music samples.

If you're finding the teaser unsatisfactory, that should be pointed toward the cinematics team and those who were giving that team the story info. I will say that I'm not overly impressed by what's been shown so far, and I really wasn't all that impressed by the EW teaser either once it got past the initial moon pics. I know part of it is because SE reorganized their cinematics department some years back so those who worked on the EW/DT trailers aren't the same ones who worked on the SB/ShB trailers. Everything in the EW trailers felt a little bit off because of the slight difference in character models. Maybe the current team handling cinematics doesn't have the same touch as the old one?

I'm still going to wait until we have the final reveals at the JP FanFest before I try to form my initial opinion of what Dawntrail will be like. We don't have enough information at this point.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The marketing is happening the same way it was happening pre-COVID.

I'm still going to wait until we have the final reveals at the JP FanFest before I try to form my initial opinion of what Dawntrail will be like. We don't have enough information at this point.

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This all sounds very reasonable but I don't really think Endwalker is good comparison. Endwalker is a bit of a wildcard as it has references to 8 years of story we are already familiar with, even in the initial 3 minute teaser. It was clear it was a conclusion to the major ongoing plot. I'm not sure it honestly mattered what was in the Endwalker trailer.

That said if the cinematics team is getting story info and interpreting it, yes it could mean they are doing a poor job. Or it could mean the story they're being fed just isn't interesting. I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say you weren't impressed with the Endwalker teaser. Endwalker had a 3 minute teaser just like DawnTrail and it showed myriad different situations/plot lines, characters doing different things, antagonists, etc. It definitely wasn't just the moon (although the paladin on the moon is regarded as pretty iconic). Taking many many months to drip feed the content is certainly a strategy and it has worked for them for some time. I just think given the state of the game right now with so much of the player base taking a break (which is happening, at a higher rate than any other expansion, but people don't want to admit it) because nothing in the game is holding their attention (due to poorly received patch content but again, people won't admit that as it is "being completed"), it's a really rough time for this drip feed strategy and a teaser that honestly, has already been forgotten hype wise (from my own network and what I've observed online). I think the teaser was generally well received because it is new content but I don't see people super motivated by it or obsessing over it. It's just okay -- it's something new. It just seems counter to retaining players and counter to SE's desire to grow this game, doing something super safe with the same old same old delivery.

After all the team is hellbent on simplifying jobs, making things solo play, downscaling group play (dungeons vs exploratory), handing out free relics, etc. etc. and they say "great people are doing this" yet they still want to use marketing models from 10 years ago with underwhelming teasers...? That's not really what gaming is about today imo. It feels very outdated, just a general observation I would note.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The Warring Triad were an existential threat to the entire planet. Even weakened by their containment, all three of them going free at once would in all likelihood have meant the end of the world.

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and here is one of the area I have issue with FF14's narrative. Outside of the MSQ, most of the side quest content receive very small amount of narrative that undersell them by a lot.

Think about the primal in 2.0, the majority of them had a large scale mobilization to confront or contain the threat. Like Irift had the whole Immortal Flame mobilized, Levi saw the Mealstrom pour their resource to create the platform, Shiva pretty much had the whole Isghard army at her door. Sure, in the end if it's up to the WoL, but at least you see the stake and the effort in setting the stage.

But ever since, outside of the story boss (like Step of Faith or Zodiac), pretty much all trials are very ... low key. Most of time it's just one of the "scion specialists" show up, do some investigation, hit a few random button on an Allagan panel and in we go, squash them like a bug. It doesn't feel like we're stopping some kind world ending threats, rather just putting down some local gangs that misbehave at best. It's hard to sale the "world ending threat" pitch when we can pretty much solo them down without much of a support, logistic or organization w/o.


This is an issue with the power creep in the narrative and overselling the encounters.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

After all the team is hellbent on simplifying jobs, making things solo play, downscaling group play (dungeons vs exploratory), handing out free relics, etc. etc. and they say "great people are doing this" yet they still want to use marketing models from 10 years ago with underwhelming teasers...? That's not really what gaming is about today imo. It feels very outdated, just a general observation I would note.

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Oh, I can definitely agree they're behind the times with the way they do things. The contortions people have to go through to buy the game if not using PSN or Steam, the look of the Lodestone and the forums, the look of the launcher (which is at least an improvement over the old launcher but still). FFXIV has been my only experience with a JP gaming company but other players have told me it's not that unusual for JP to be behind what NA/EU companies are doing.

If marketing is what gaming is about these days, it goes far in showing why we've been getting a flood of bad games. Companies are paying more attention to how they sell a game than how they make it. Time for gamers to start putting more stock into the games they play and enjoy instead of falling for marketing hype and spending money on games that just aren't satisfying to them in the end.

All I can say is if Dawntrail repeats the same kind of pattern like previous expansions.

Then we got a problem.

I'm not "lowering my bar" personally I'm just ready to expect not a lot really.

I like to play the game more for social aspects at this point anyway, so if anything noteworthy or good coming from it then great, it's not the only game or thing i look forward to anymore so i can happily accept that, yeah im disappointed with the current game but it's not my life lol.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

All I can say is if Dawntrail repeats the same kind of pattern like previous expansions.

Then we got a problem.

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Why do you consider it a problem when it's really not that different from what MMORPGs in general have been doing for a couple of decades? Release an expansion filled with leveling content and the initial endgame then dribble out more content over the next 2 years until the next expansion is ready to release.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Oh, I can definitely agree they're behind the times with the way they do things. The contortions people have to go through to buy the game if not using PSN or Steam, the look of the Lodestone and the forums, the look of the launcher (which is at least an improvement over the old launcher but still). FFXIV has been my only experience with a JP gaming company but other players have told me it's not that unusual for JP to be behind what NA/EU companies are doing.

If marketing is what gaming is about these days, it goes far in showing why we've been getting a flood of bad games. Companies are paying more attention to how they sell a game than how they make it. Time for gamers to start putting more stock into the games they play and enjoy instead of falling for marketing hype and spending money on games that just aren't satisfying to them in the end.

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I misspoke. It's not that gaming is about marketing. It's that gaming today is competitive. It is no coincidence that the year XVI, BG3, Armored Core etc dropped that XIV is seeing a decline in subs. Who knows what will be capturing attention by next summer? The question is whether this drip feed style of reveals (which BTW is basically just extorting players money in exchange for a concert or whatever) will maintain hype given that lowering of expectations is an ongoing topic regarding DawnTrail.

Moreover, no other publisher really does this. Trailers can be teases but to modify the same trailer 3 times just seems exploitatively tedious. Yoshi P is modernizing the game in the aforementioned ways, talks about attracting the Fornite gamer, but is using the same dull marketing structure from 10 years ago. That's my point. The Fortnite gamer is used to just seeing the best of whatever the next update is and that's it. It's not some year long drawn out thing.

To expound say the Fornite gamer is told by a friend to check out XiV-- is someone on the forum seriously and honestly going to tell me this teaser is going to appeal to a diverse crowd and not just the hardcore base of XIV???? How is that serving the game or the agenda of growing it..? The friend has to explain "oh but it will seem good in six months just watch this and that on these dates". I feel like the community doesn't get it and finds that appealing.

I also disagree it is JP thing. RE and Persona are cutting edge in comparison. And there was never a time I'm aware of when a US mmo did this kind of thing.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Why do you consider it a problem when it's really not that different from what MMORPGs in general have been doing for a couple of decades? Release an expansion filled with leveling content and the initial endgame then dribble out more content over the next 2 years until the next expansion is ready to release.

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I know it isn't addressed to me but it is because MMOs are on the way out and live service/ free to play are in. People are waiting for an MMO comeback that, imo, is likely never coming back. People say new players will replace players like me and everyone I know who are losing interest in XIV. But that pool of players is limited both literally and due to the fact XIV is simply outdated, as a game, regardless of genre. People keep claiming 7.0 will be big but I highly doubt it will outpace Endwalker, which was riding a multi factor high (timing, no other good mmos, big streamers playing it, end of the ascian plot). Players are already unsubbing at fairly alarming rates and the assumption is that they will all return. That's a dangerous assumption imo but the devs and the fans of this game are so accustomed to record breaking that they won't see possible downturns coming until it is at their doorstep.

Even right now people are saying the game is dead ish because that is what always happens etc. And that is true. The servers will still be overloaded for 7.0 don't get me wrong...but it's a question of how long it sticks given post Endwalker has seen huge drop offs hard and fast.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I know it isn't addressed to me but it is because MMOs are on the way out and live service/ free to play are in. People are waiting for an MMO comeback that, imo, is likely never coming back. People say new players will replace players like me and everyone I know who are losing interest in XIV. But that pool of players is limited both literally and due to the fact XIV is simply outdated, as a game, regardless of genre. People keep claiming 7.0 will be big but I highly doubt it will outpace Endwalker, which was riding a multi factor high (timing, no other good mmos, big streamers playing it, end of the ascian plot). Players are already unsubbing at fairly alarming rates and the assumption is that they will all return. That's a dangerous assumption imo but the devs and the fans of this game are so accustomed to record breaking that they won't see possible downturns coming until it is at their doorstep.

Even right now people are saying the game is dead ish because that is what always happens etc. And that is true. The servers will still be overloaded for 7.0 don't get me wrong...but it's a question of how long it sticks given post Endwalker has seen huge drop offs hard and fast.

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Ashes of Creation is looking a bit dated at this point and who knows what will happen to the Riot MMO. You're right. The genre is probably going to die in the next decade or so.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

All I can say is if Dawntrail repeats the same kind of pattern like previous expansions.

Then we got a problem.

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They've had the same schedule for 3 expansions now, what makes you think they're going to change?

Definition of insanity and all that.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Players are already unsubbing at fairly alarming rates and the assumption is that they will all return. That's a dangerous assumption imo but the devs and the fans of this game are so accustomed to record breaking that they won't see possible downturns coming until it is at their doorstep.

Even right now people are saying the game is dead ish because that is what always happens etc. And that is true. The servers will still be overloaded for 7.0 don't get me wrong...but it's a question of how long it sticks given post Endwalker has seen huge drop offs hard and fast.

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The issue with comments like this is that they're Chicken Little "the sky is falling" that clashes with reality. There was an anomalous spike in subs at the end of ShB/beginning of EW because of the infamous "WoW exodus", but given how different the two games are, reasonable people never expected that spike to last, nor have I heard anyone legitimately claim they're assuming anywhere near "everyone" from that spike will return with the start of DT. Remove the spike from consideration and what you see in EW is a continuation of the same trend that has existed for every single expansion starting from ARR, which is a slow but steady growth in subs and active players. To make a valid comparison, look at the data from similar points in an xpac (for example, compare the month 6.4 released to 5.4, 4.4, 3.4, etc.). Hilariously, even the "Steam data" claiming the game is bleeding subs (while ignoring both the unique spike and natural cyclical nature of subs in every MMO that ever existed) actually shows EW consistently features the highest playerbase to date at each equivalent point along the way.

The part is who are the people saying the game is dead'ish? Oh, right, the negative echo chamber that is living in the past, can't accept that things change with time, MMO's are no longer designed (or meant) to be your entire life, and trash or doomsay the game every chance they get. Meanwhile, actually go log into the game and play, and you see it thriving, people having a blast, and just a ton of good vibes in general.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

The issue with comments like this is that they're Chicken Little "the sky is falling" that clashes with reality. There was an anomalous spike in subs at the end of ShB/beginning of EW because of the infamous "WoW exodus", but given how different the two games are, reasonable people never expected that spike to last, nor have I heard anyone legitimately claim they're assuming anywhere near "everyone" from that spike will return with the start of DT. Remove the spike from consideration and what you see in EW is a continuation of the same trend that has existed for every single expansion starting from ARR, which is a slow but steady growth in subs and active players. To make a valid comparison, look at the data from similar points in an xpac (for example, compare the month 6.4 released to 5.4, 4.4, 3.4, etc.). Hilariously, even the "Steam data" claiming the game is bleeding subs (while ignoring both the unique spike and natural cyclical nature of subs in every MMO that ever existed) actually shows EW consistently features the highest playerbase to date at each equivalent point along the way.

The part is who are the people saying the game is dead'ish? Oh, right, the negative echo chamber that is living in the past, can't accept that things change with time, MMO's are no longer designed (or meant) to be your entire life, and trash or doomsay the game every chance they get. Meanwhile, actually go log into the game and play, and you see it thriving, people having a blast, and just a ton of good vibes in general.

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Yes, as I mentioned, EW was riding a lot of highs including having no competition due to WoW being in a particularly bad space. DawnTrail has an opposing version of EW's benefits -- pandemic over, inflation high, tons of competition, brand new story.

As far as "tons of good vibes" I don't agree. Towns have people but there's way less banter, bards, groups doing things. There's even less bots. I'm also not just one person I have a friends list and linkshells-- I can see fcs and networks of people who just stopped playing. And lots if them are people who used to play more than me. While it's anecdotal I'm not the only one saying that, and queues aren't exactly off the wall even on Aether.

There's exceptions of course because you have your second lifers, sprouts, and raiders. But they're literally always going to be there doing their thing since they're the base.

You can plug your ears and act like everyone wants to play the game all day every day but that it wasn't being asked. The new patch content just didn't really land, some people aren't feeling the story, and there's other stuff to play. But when enough players leave, their friends do too because MMOs are social games.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

All I can say is if Dawntrail repeats the same kind of pattern like previous expansions.

Then we got a problem.

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It would not surprise me if it’s more of the same. Things are not all that spiffy in SE financially right now so they may not want to rock the boat much in any way. Yes, the boat is leaking, but they probably think that it’s not bad enough to change course. Their stockholders are still there saying “where’s my dividend”.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

It would not surprise me if it’s more of the same. Things are not all that spiffy in SE financially right now so they may not want to rock the boat much in any way. Yes, the boat is leaking, but they probably think that it’s not bad enough to change course. Their stockholders are still there saying “where’s my dividend”.

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Marking the beginning of the inevitable END of Square Enix and FFXIV.


Im sure some of us here are just getting tingles and goosepimples of joy seeing such words like that thrown

I'm hoping Dawntrail uses itself as a soft-reset without needing another Bahamut incident to do so.

who even watches zepla, lmao

the expectations should be the same as for every expansion, as they always follow the same formula

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

who even watches zepla, lmao

the expectations should be the same as for every expansion, as they always follow the same formula

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Good point. I have no clue who would actually waste their time watching her. She says nothing of value and only reacts depending on the situation that will best line her pockets. Get ready for her to praise FFXIV and Dawntrail as the best things in gaming history very soon.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

The issue with comments like this is that they're Chicken Little "the sky is falling" that clashes with reality. (strawman) There was an anomalous spike in subs at the end of ShB/beginning of EW because of the infamous "WoW exodus", but given how different the two games are, reasonable people never expected that spike to last, nor have I heard anyone legitimately claim they're assuming anywhere near "everyone" from that spike will return with the start of DT. (strawman, deflection) Remove the spike from consideration and what you see in EW is a continuation of the same trend that has existed for every single expansion starting from ARR, which is a slow but steady growth in subs and active players. (incorrect) To make a valid comparison, look at the data from similar points in an xpac (for example, compare the month 6.4 released to 5.4, 4.4, 3.4, etc.). (lower than Shadowbringers) Hilariously, even the "Steam data" claiming the game is bleeding subs (while ignoring both the unique spike and natural cyclical nature of subs in every MMO that ever existed) actually shows EW consistently features the highest playerbase to date at each equivalent point along the way. (incorrect)

The part is who are the people saying the game is dead'ish? Oh, right, the negative echo chamber that is living in the past, (ad hominem) can't accept that things change with time, MMO's are no longer designed (or meant) to be your entire life, and trash or doomsay the game every chance they get. (strawman) Meanwhile, actually go log into the game and play, and you see it thriving, people having a blast, and just a ton of good vibes in general. (contradicts the previous sentence)

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This entire cope:

https://i.imgur.com/CS2dUp5.jpg

I just hope it can be a jump start point So l can get my friend to play with me. Doing random stuff with my friend in gw2 is fun because content is not locked behind story. I just hope dawntrail will make that right move. That's all l ask