What can SE learn from Bioware's failing Star Wars MMO?

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

Although I agree with this, my only statement would be: Surely there is enough room in the world for 99 instant gratification MMORPGs and 1 (FFXIV) that is not.

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Unfortunately, if SE wants to attract any new players, they're going to have to gear 2.0 to have at least SOME instant gratification.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

Unfortunately, if SE wants to attract any new players, they're going to have to gear 2.0 to have at least SOME instant gratification.

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Card games.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

Unfortunately, if SE wants to attract any new players, they're going to have to gear 2.0 to have at least SOME instant gratification.

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There's a difference between catering to "instant gratification" -group and creating content in the game that can be done when you feel like it. In these kinds of threads the thought always comes up that there's this "casual group" that needs to be addressed or the game will fail and it'll have no players and will wither away and die.

Of course the big money is there in the casual land, but it's also a place packed with competitors and a huge chance of hurting your company's reputation, not to mention the fact that your game will most likely die in 1-2 years. But not everyone has to go there, since there's also an ever growing mass of players who are sick of the spoonfeed-consept and want something different.

Every business needs to differentiate it's product somehow and target a spesific group of customers. They don't need to aim for the maximal profit no matter what and I can very well see a place for FFXIV somewhere in the middle ground. It will never be as big as the casual MMOs and it doesn't have to be, just as long as it's not too hardcore.

There's also the slippery slope of giving in to the whine. You can just look around this forum and see that someone always thinks the game is too unforgiving, the RNG is too dominant, they're upset that getting relic is too frustrating and whatnot. Of course some people have good points, I'm not saying that, but if you were to actually try to please everyone, you'd have another SW:TOR -case on your hands.

I've rambled a bit, but my point is that many people will be pissed about the game no matter what, but the most important thing here is to make the game for someone, not everyone, and then stick to that vision. There's plenty of players out there for pretty much every type of game.

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Originally Posted by Riv

TOR was pretty crappy lol. I was max lvl on 2 characters b4 the free trial even ended.

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You're just as bad as people saying XIV sucks after completing one leve.

You may like or not like a game, but at least make an effort to try and distinguish something that is "crappy" and something that "you don't like". SWTOR is not "crappy". It has downsides, but a lot of good parts as well. We are still talking about over a million subscribers (unless someone prove with a trusted source that there is less)...

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Originally Posted by Antipika

You're just as bad as people saying XIV sucks after completing one leve.

You may like or not like a game, but at least make an effort to try and distinguish something that is "crappy" and something that "you don't like". SWTOR is not "crappy". It has downsides, but a lot of good parts as well. We are still talking about over a million subscribers (unless someone prove with a trusted source that there is less)...

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There is a significant difference between having two character as max level and completing one levequest.

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Originally Posted by Celia

There is a significant difference between having two character as max level and completing one levequest.

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>b4 the free trial even ended.

And how is that different from experiencing the game? It's like getting PL'd in XIV from 1 to 50 and say "lol XIV, I got 50 before my free trial was over and the game sux"...

Unless Bioware made massive changes regarding leveling, I started playing back in december when the game started, getting level 50 took "some" time (provided that you were doing quests and actually reading the text). So twice 1>50 in less than 30 days mean that little to no content was played the way it should have been played (i.e. reading text, going through certain areas etc.). I won't even talk about anything end-game related.

Also if you level not one, but two characters to 50 in less than 30 days, without PL/help, it means that you played hardcore for a bit and that you at least *slightly* enjoyed the game (or have serious issues for playing something you really hate).

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Originally Posted by Antipika

Also if you level not one, but two characters to 50 in less than 30 days, without PL/help, it means that you played hardcore for a bit and that you at least *slightly* enjoyed the game (or have serious issues for playing something you really hate).

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Well, I haven't met a person yet that truly enjoys level grinding. It's accepted by most MMORPG veterans that "the real game begins at the level cap", so many people rush to get there as quickly as possible.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

Unfortunately, if SE wants to attract any new players, they're going to have to gear 2.0 to have at least SOME instant gratification.

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I don't see the issue with some instant gratification. As long as there's content for the hardcore players too.

Look, ever since Yoshi publically stated that Star Wars's problem was launching the game without enough content (which, while true, it still had more content at launch by far than XIV originally did), and that 2.0 would launch with more content than that, I have taken a few deep breaths and decided to let the man do his job, since he appears to know what he is doing.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

Look, ever since Yoshi publically stated that Star Wars's problem was launching the game without enough content (which, while true, it still had more content at launch by far than XIV originally did), and that 2.0 would launch with more content than that, I have taken a few deep breaths and decided to let the man do his job, since he appears to know what he is doing.

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Star Wars all in all is not a bad game by any means. It had an extremely good storyline, the combat abilities were fun (On Bounty Hunter at least.), and the multiple world structure was pretty neat and only makes the possibilities endless for the game. The main problem is as everyone said, the end game is lousy. It is almost like they fully focused on the RPG perspective and not as much on the MMO perspective. It is boring, dull, and overwhelming if you are planning to go full hardcore on it. Dungeons got boring and you didn't care about reading through the storyline dialog you read millions of times. The regular dungeons are not casual friendly also. On a bigger dungeon (not raid), you are looking at a good few hours to finish one.

Star Wars may start to truly shine in the future, but I don't believe it will ever get the numbers it was hoping to make.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Well, I haven't met a person yet that truly enjoys level grinding. It's accepted by most MMORPG veterans that "the real game begins at the level cap", so many people rush to get there as quickly as possible.

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*wavies* hello. I enjoy a bit of the 'grinding' xp, as it's a great way to chat with people in XP parties and perfect some of the finer aspects of your job. Although I am thinking mostly of FFXI pre-COP era XP.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Well, I haven't met a person yet that truly enjoys level grinding. It's accepted by most MMORPG veterans that "the real game begins at the level cap", so many people rush to get there as quickly as possible.

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You certainly didn't play SWTOR then, the best part is the leveling and people left mostly because of the unbalanced endgame once Level 50 is reached. The game is heavily story driven and your journey from 1 to 50 is painless, as you don't really feel the grind (like you do on XIV, especially past level 30 where most of people are doing Raptor > Natalan grind fest).

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Look, ever since Yoshi publically stated that Star Wars's problem was launching the game without enough content (which, while true, it still had more content at launch by far than XIV originally did),

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SWTOR 1.0 had more content than XIV 1.22b have and will have more than XIV 1.23 unless SE release a super huge patch. But drop rate aren't low, so players went through the content faster.

Drop rate in high level 4-mans dungeons in SWTOR is 100%. Guaranteed drop on final boss and it's useable for 1 of the 4 class group of the game, meaning that if your party is made of 4 players from 4 different class group, there won't be any competition at /rolling (unlike XIV where on top of having a shit drop rate, lot of people are 7/7 jobs and you have to fight for whatever drops with at least 2 or 3 players which lower the chance to get your loot).

You can attempt a specific dungeon once every 24 hour max, but nothing prevent you to run 4 different dungeons a day. Meaning that in average, you get one guaranteed drop per day when you start gearing up. The pace will slow down a bit when you will only need 1 or 2 piece of armor (meaning that you will only do runs for the 1-2 dungeons you need).

Oh yeah, on top of armor drop, you get tokens. And you can use them to acquire piece of armor directly from NPC. It would take long to have enough token to buy Tier 2 equipment, roughly 1 month, still. That's enough to buy that very last piece of armor set you were missing.

I got my full Tier 2 set in about a month. Then T3 (Raid) was barely an improvement over T2, so why even bother (and 8-mans was dropping the same thing as 16-mans)? Nothing was even balanced in Raid yet, so I did like many, I left...

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The biggest mistake of Bioware was to listen to the community when it came to fixing the game. Stupid things that didn't require any fix were changed, while important things were overlooked.

It sounds like EN forums sometime with "PETITION FOR [...]" everywhere. Players think that because they pay $12 a month they are entitled to give orders to game designers. I am glad sometime SE do their own things, even if the community is complaining. While some complaints are off course legitimate, it doesn't mean that they should always be taken in consideration.

Typical example that comes in mind are the low drop rate. If XIV had SWTOR like drop rate, we wouldn't even be here anymore to talk, because we would all have left.

(In b4 : "B.. But! I don't play for the drops! I play for fun!!". That's not true for most of players, you don't do Primals because they're fun after 50 wins, but because you want your weapon. Same with dungeons. Same with just anything...)

I hope 2.0 will remain the way SE wants it to be and not the way some minority on forums wants it to be.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

*wavies* hello. I enjoy a bit of the 'grinding' xp, as it's a great way to chat with people in XP parties and perfect some of the finer aspects of your job. Although I am thinking mostly of FFXI pre-COP era XP.

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If anybody thinks beating a crab 1 million times trains you for primal battles, and other endgame content then they are silly. Doing actual endgame content is the best an only way to get good at it.

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Originally Posted by Antipika

You certainly didn't play SWTOR then

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As a matter of fact, I did play SWTOR. My account is still active, even, since I made the mistake of plunking down money for a 6-month subscription. I stopped playing it for exactly the reason you mention. The best part of it is the level grind.

There is another game that has a very well designed level grind, but it isn't an MMORPG so it doesn't get considered, even though it plays like an MMO: Xenoblade Chronicles. Even though the game is very linear, the main scenario quests and the hundreds of sidequests are designed in such a way that you will fully explore the game's world. It's great.

XIV comes close to this, but it misses the mark because the main scenario quests were designed to be completable by DoH/DoL classes, so you can finish them without actually doing anything (thus missing a fine opportunity for EXP gains from combat situations). There also aren't enough of them.

What Asiaine said about level grinding in Zilart-era XI is also true, but for XIV to match that magic it needs to make forming a PT a lot easier.

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Originally Posted by DNO

If anybody thinks beating a crab 1 million times trains you for primal battles, and other endgame content then they are silly. Doing actual endgame content is the best an only way to get good at it.

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It teaches you to hold aggro as a tank, deal efficient damage as a DD, and heal a party as a healer. These are all things that your average player does not do as well as they could(should). So yes it does train you to do endgame content, and since MMO's have moved away from the party-leveling model the quality of your average player at cap has dropped significantly.

I'd take a person who truly knew how to play their role in a group for endgame content over someone with ten million hours logged dodging magma and other ridiculous gimmicks in WoW or FFXIV any day.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

As a matter of fact, I did play SWTOR. My account is still active, even, since I made the mistake of plunking down money for a 6-month subscription. I stopped playing it for exactly the reason you mention. The best part of it is the level grind.

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My bad then, but why your answer make it sound the other way :p ? (I also made the mistake of paying 3 months and playing only ~2 months (+30 days free))

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

*wavies* hello. I enjoy a bit of the 'grinding' xp, as it's a great way to chat with people in XP parties and perfect some of the finer aspects of your job. Although I am thinking mostly of FFXI pre-COP era XP.

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I'm with Shayla here, I do enjoy leveling up my job(s) to cap, and I'd prefer if it would take me some time. For me it's about the journey, not in a hurry to get to the end of it.

I think that's one of the issues I have with the "modern day MMORPG(-player)s": people think the "real game" is the instanced end game content, not exploring the world (or just being part of it) and having spontaneous adventures.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I'm with Shayla here, I do enjoy leveling up my job(s) to cap, and I'd prefer if it would take me some time. For me it's about the journey, not in a hurry to get to the end of it.

I think that's one of the issues I have with the "modern day MMORPG(-player)s": people think the "real game" is the instanced end game content, not exploring the world (or just being part of it) and having spontaneous adventures.

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Yes, yes. This is the point I was trying to make. Those people that rushed to 50 in SWTOR skipped all that story because "It's all about endgame" these days.

Take a look at history, early FFXI and WoW had no endgame...for quite awhile, in fact. For over a year, FFXI's "endgame" was the Shadow Lord, a battle that yielded no drops. WoW had Blackrock Spire, which was considered endgame merely because it was the highest level instance. There was no Dynamis, no Icecrown. Yet they succeeded because the grind was more than just a grind back then. You were exploring the world, meeting other players, building a community.

That last bit has actually proven to be detrimental to XIV, because a lot of us have played XI, and most of us have stayed with our LS mates from Vana'diel. This has caused some fragmentation in the community, since many LSs had exclusive membership. We're slowly recovering from that, though.

You could only have 1 LS in XI, so all LSes were exclusive.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

You could only have 1 LS in XI, so all LSes were exclusive.

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um....wrong

you could only have 1 equipped at a time, you could have multiple

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

You could only have 1 LS in XI, so all LSes were exclusive.

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You could have as many LS's as your inventory could hold.

I have to agree with those that are saying the grind is part of the fun. I felt the same about FFXI when i was playing meeting people discovering new abilities in a party setting and learning how to work them was a huge part of the fun on top of that you got to meet new people make friends and actually experience and explore the world when you had to move to a new spot to exp off of. people say COP killed the grinding experience but even post Aht Urgan the games grind was fun. what really killed the game and how you can truely say that you know exp pts actually teach people how to raid and work in a group setting is simply Abyssea.

Abyssea destoryed the skill level of the games players. anyone could get a job up to level cap and didnt matter what gear was used, what abilities were used. everyone got a free ticket to level cap with any job they wanted, hell half the people would claim they were going on a job that was well geared and then swap out and leach exp from everyone else. the game also got easy mode with the anima and the uber powerful everything. honestly IMO thats what really ruined FFXI.

FFXIV to survive will need to be able to build a community of players that actually know eachother. that actually need to quest with eachother and level up together. they shouldnt make it so that you cant do other things. sometimes everyone will just want to log on and not have to deal with people. but the majority of the game should be done with other people. and the game should have time sinks built in so gear doesnt drop instantly and everyone gets geared up within a few months or levels from one to 50 within a few months. my highest class maybe pretty low at this point but I can already see if I was super hardcore about playing the game logging in every night and playing for 4-5 hrs where I could have all my DoW/DoM capped in a matter of a few months.

I am sure that SE will strike a good balance and I hope that they will lean towards what seems to be the larger group on the forums people that dont want instant gratification and super casual games. the people that want to be able to do the content and have a reason to play the game for years to come.

Grinding "use" to be part of the charm but now we live in a world of farmville and all those instant gratification games that if people aren't being rewarded right off the bat they'll complain about it. Just look at the complaints towards the relic weapons perhaps the most challenging thing yet not as challenging as obtaining the relic/mythic from XI.

Browser based games and micro-transactions have tainted a good amount of gamers that use to play for fun and enjoy the community of it all and in an MMO a community is everything, without that you only have a shell of a game.

In something like swtor a community wasn't needed til end-game and even then there wasn't enough content to do with said group. Sure they had flashpoints which you could do to lv up and play with 3 others but overall said content wasn't needed to "experience" the game when you could just as easily level solo through the storyline and sidequest which were offered.

While the same could be said for XIV compared to swtor in it's current state XIV's content is somewhat more varied.
-A decent variety of NM(granted not the most challenging but respawns aren't ridiculous)
-dungeons (time based which force you to progress through them fast in order to complete them)
-Primal Fights (Boss instance without the dungeons)
-AF quest (Content which requires help from other to complete at later stages)
-GC quest (content which requires help from other to complete)
-Caravans (content which requires at least 7 others to get a decent payout)
-Relic weapons (content which requires a wide range of skill and luck to obtain as well as a good community)

That's all I can think of atm. When you compare it to SWTOR they have
Flashpoint(4 person event which is repeatable and can be done at own leisure with no penalty for taking your time. So someone with a lot of time on their hands can pretty much clean out the flashpoint before leaving, and since one person can enter a flashpoint by themselves they can just as easily use said instance to farm items for credit)
Story mode(solo adventure)
Side quest(large variety which can be done solo with only a handful that recommend a group rangin from 2-4)
Operations (instance event which can have from 8-16 in it, works in the same way as flashpoints.)
PVP (events usually pitting again on an 8v8 setup however horribly imbalanced)

But ya, SWTOR issue falls from imbalance and lack of a wide variety of large grouped events because of said imbalance. If they were able to balance classes properly as well as offer a wider variety of content for players to do then perhaps it would have faired better.

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Originally Posted by DNO

If anybody thinks beating a crab 1 million times trains you for primal battles, and other endgame content then they are silly. Doing actual endgame content is the best an only way to get good at it.

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Because doing levequests and sitting around getting powerleveled trained you for Primal battles and AV, right?

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Originally Posted by Antipika

You certainly didn't play SWTOR then, the best part is the leveling and people left mostly because of the unbalanced endgame once Level 50 is reached. The game is heavily story driven and your journey from 1 to 50 is painless, as you don't really feel the grind (like you do on XIV, especially past level 30 where most of people are doing Raptor > Natalan grind fest).

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Thats because TOR has a story with which to buffer the time it takes to level a character. Alderaan => Hoth is pretty involved, and you get the exp as you go, which is never a bad thing. You don't really feel the grind because you're probably wanting to see how the story ends.

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Typical example that comes in mind are the low drop rate. If XIV had SWTOR like drop rate, we wouldn't even be here anymore to talk, because we would all have left.

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You can have a 100% drop rate, but it requires giving bosses loot pools and ensuring you have plenty of content to spread it about. I'm not sure whether you're attempting to justify the ridiculous drop rates so far, though I'm of the mind they're there because the game lacks content and thus needs this to elongate its relevancy.

To me, the same factor which prevented me from buying SW:TOR after trying out its beta, made me quit wow and barely kept me with FF14, is the graphic.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

*wavies* hello. I enjoy a bit of the 'grinding' xp, as it's a great way to chat with people in XP parties and perfect some of the finer aspects of your job. Although I am thinking mostly of FFXI pre-COP era XP.

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It's true. Party grinding helps you learn your job in a party for end game. Party grinding taught me the best way to heal and keep hate down. When playing TOR, especially in PVP it was always just a mad house. There was no party structure or team work. Everyone was simply playing by themselves on a team.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Thats because TOR has a story with which to buffer the time it takes to level a character. Alderaan => Hoth is pretty involved, and you get the exp as you go, which is never a bad thing. You don't really feel the grind because you're probably wanting to see how the story ends.

You can have a 100% drop rate, but it requires giving bosses loot pools and ensuring you have plenty of content to spread it about. I'm not sure whether you're attempting to justify the ridiculous drop rates so far, though I'm of the mind they're there because the game lacks content and thus needs this to elongate its relevancy.

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I like your points here. Grind only feels like a grind when theres nothing to distract you from it. On that point, SW:Tor did well. The story was good enough to move you through it and level you without an obviously repetitive action. However it failed to deliver you any real reasons to group up either.

Flashpoints we're so passable that often you found very few to do them with. And the Grouping tool was lackluster and in some ways would force you to sit in a station to even find the group. Theres no community if not ones around to do things with. But Grouping tools and the community breaking "Discussion" can be saved for another thread.

The second point being Loot pools as they stand in so many games now are filled by Top end items then strait to crap. Look at primals. Theres the weapons you want, then DM that saps your soul. One could easily ease such situations with a higher drop rate, but a better array of mid grade items. Maybe the same as something else but with a different skin. Or +5 and +4 of a similar item, but the stats reversed.

If a loot "pool" is more then a shot glass it really does help keep the highs and lows people feel when they win more baseline.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

The game no longer has 1 million plus subscribers, otherwise they're just wasting money on subscriptions they're just sitting on. It had a strong start, strongest in a long time, but now every server seems to be trailing at light population and the game is hurting. The game is plagued with hundreds of issues never addressed, a lack of overall content to keep people there after the story, issues surrounding EA leading to some very bad press, and stupid decisions from EA in general.

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1.7 a month after release(After free trial was over) and they have lost 400k...... I know you can count :)

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Originally Posted by Viritess

The second point being Loot pools as they stand in so many games now are filled by Top end items then strait to crap. Look at primals. Theres the weapons you want, then DM that saps your soul. One could easily ease such situations with a higher drop rate, but a better array of mid grade items. Maybe the same as something else but with a different skin. Or +5 and +4 of a similar item, but the stats reversed.

If a loot "pool" is more then a shot glass it really does help keep the highs and lows people feel when they win more baseline.

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Well, the way I would design Garuda's lootpool for example, would be as follows (this is assuming Garuda is on a 7-day lockout timer like raid bosses in WoW are, and as such you need 10 totems to trade for a weapon):

15% chance of getting a weapon
80-95% chance of getting one from the following list of items:

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Vembraces of the Gales (+Shield Block rating, +STR, +VIT, +DEX)
Cuisses of the Vortex (+Attack, +STR, +Parry rating, +Accuracy)
Wind Rider's Belt (+Accuracy, +AGI, +INT)
Emerald Feathered Boots (+INT, +M.Acc, Grants Refresh Effect)

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100% chance of getting 4-7 pieces of Dark Matter
100% chance of getting one totem

This way at least when not getting a weapon your group still gets something for their troubles and still progresses in a matter of speaking.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Personally, I hugely dislike the talk about "modern day MMOs" with "dynamic worlds" which are "accessible". I feel like they're taking the magic out of the MMOs. They're not worlds you can explore at your own pace, slowly progressing to face the bigger adventures. They're just lobbies that teleport you from one content to another, one group to another, taking you by the hand and spoon feeding you rewards. People say this is the future and "old schoolers" will just have to live with it, but we're seeing one clone failing after another and it has to mean something. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind there being casual games that don't require any commitment or any "work" from the player, but why do all MMORPGs have to be identical?

Here's an interesting article recently published about the issue, I warmly recommend it if you're interested in this subject.

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Yep. It takes storyline to immerse the player. You have to feel you are advancing... achieving something. I agree it can't be spoon fed. If it is too easy, it isn't immersive. You have to have clues that are meaningful, not directions to go to the next x on the map. The player needs to figure things out. This does not mean Ifrit Extreme. Hard battles are not all that interesting... just something to rack up... like a bear carcass nailed over the fireplace. Hard battles are not fun. Challenging battles are fun. Like trying to figure out the best way to assassinate the princess in Skyrim without going to jail. It isn't easy ... but when you successfully pull off some wild assassination, you feel immersed and happy. Doing it your own way is fun. Having to redo something that everyone else has already done with no originality, no choices, no challenges, or having to do Ifrit with 7 people who have done it 100 times before and are just helping you because you can't do it alone .... that isn't fun. Doing a quest that just says "go here" "go there" isn't fun. What made all the FF games fun was figuring out how to whup all the big bosses effortlessly so you were the top dog. Making complicated crystal weapons that cost 10,000,000 gil was not the fun part. Killing the same water beast 10000 times was not the fun part. The fun part is figuring stuff out, putting on cool armor and weapons, being the top dog, and collecting complete sets of really cool stuff. Doing the Easter Egg quest is the closest thing in the game so far that has a complete story line with a real conclusion. All the other quests feel up in the air, incomplete. The relic weapon thing doesn't seem to have any theme to pull it together into a coherent story. The prophecies thing is not developing into an extended story. At this moment, there should be some coordinated story tying together the invasion, the satellite, and impending doom... instead we are told on destroying the transmitter that that has just condemned us to destruction. Where is the response to this? We should be scavanging the land for relics to take to central headquarters where scientists pour over every artifact we find. There should be a chalkboard in this center that outlines what they are doing to delay disaster. There should be impossible machines being assembled day by day. There should be activity in the world. The feel of desperation should be obvious. We need story...

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Originally Posted by hrdndv

wall o' text

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Take a breath! Crikey!

You're right, though.

[QUOTE=Velhart;730099]All I think can be said in the video above. The only games I see succeeding and staying in competition with WoW (not over succeeding it) is Final Fantasy XIV 2.0 and Guild Wars 2. FFXIV 2.0 will definitely caters to a certain group of people (Japanese and JRPG players), and the idea of international servers is one of the reasons that FFXI was a huge success for a long time.

I would add The Elder Scrolls Online. I know I will play it and hope for the best. I think it has the potential to be the MMO of the future.

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Originally Posted by hrdndv

I would add The Elder Scrolls Online. I know I will play it and hope for the best. I think it has the potential to be the MMO of the future.

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That game is going to fall flat on its face. If this were 1998, Elder Scrolls Online would be incredible and a welcome addition to the MMO roster that was pretty much hogged by Everquest. You need sandbox, super timesink design to make ESO actually work. That's not going to fly in this day and age.

Make it too theme park and it won't feel like an Elder Scrolls game. Make it too time-sinky and it'll scare off the normal people that may have developed interest in the series thanks to Oblivion and Skyrim.

So, Who thinks the Elder Scrolls Online will fail?

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

So, Who thinks the Elder Scrolls Online will fail?

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I do, and I'll tell you why.

Mods.

The main reason why Bethesda RPGs are so popular is because of how easy they make it for people to customize their experience. When you throw online play into the mix, you must put stringent restrictions on how players are allowed to modify their experience in order to keep things balanced. Without the freedom to mod, the game will be a mediocre hack n' slash, and people will grow bored of it quickly.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

I do, and I'll tell you why.

Mods.

The main reason why Bethesda RPGs are so popular is because of how easy they make it for people to customize their experience. When you throw online play into the mix, you must put stringent restrictions on how players are allowed to modify their experience in order to keep things balanced. Without the freedom to mod, the game will be a mediocre hack n' slash, and people will grow bored of it quickly.

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Also don't forget the standard way it works for Bethesda games... game comes out then you wait a month for the moders to fix all the bugs in the game so you can actually play it right :P

Though since Bethesda isn't the ones actually making the game... who knows :P it might actually work... hehe

The cat is bemused =-.-=

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Originally Posted by Sagagemini

1.0 will never be a vague memory.
It left a bitter taste in evertbody's mouth.

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I agree that it should never be a vague memory. If it's a vague memory, then it's possible for them to repeat those mistakes. And NOBODY wants that.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

I can't let this go by without comment...
How exactly do you justify the statement that "Star Wars", a franchise that debuted in 1977 and still enjoys broad market appeal and new additions to it 35 years later, is "just a fad" while "Final Fantasy" which released in 1987 and enjoys comparatively narrower market appeal but still is a continuously updated franchise is not a fad but a cultural touchstone?

And as to MUDs dying off... You do know what killed them right? MMORPGs, why play text only when Everquest has actual characters. What will kill the MMORPG will be it's replacement not some new fad but genuine innovation to the genre, like full immersion VR or some such nonsense

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I don't think VR is going to make any appearances any time soon. Considering the way tech is developing, I would expect AR games to appear in our future. Hell some of them have already appeared, just look at some of the stuff on the 3DS and PSP Vita. I think it would be pretty killer to come home from work, pick up a stick-like peripheral and head out into my local woods or into my backyard and quest for a bit.

I don't know if it will fail, or not. There are some things I like, such as no mods. Sure it won't have user-generated fixes but it also won't have My Little Pony weapons and armor. I think the lack of mods will help improve the lore to this game and keep it more immersible. The TES games have an incredible amount of lore and it's actually interesting lore, none of this "The elves are pointy-eared jerks who only like wine and dancing and trees, Dwarves are bearded drunks that all live underground and are crotchety towards everything." Instead they have races that are either human or animal or elf, but completely different from one another. Khajit are desert nomads who travel far and wide only to be treated like thieves and filth for being excellent night time scouts (and thieves, but let's not split hairs). Dunmer are ash skinned elves who are split between nomads who traverse the ash covered steppes, or live in civilization along the coast. Imperials are Romanish, but instead of being the top dogs, they were dominated and whipped into submission by the Aldmeri Dominion: A faction run mostly by Altmer. Mods can absolutely expand on these, but they generally detract from it. More often than not have I seen mods such as "Turn horses into Motorcycles" "Bronies Unite! MLP Swords!" "Nude Mods for all your Tentacle Rape Fantasy Needs!" I think having it controlled by the developers is a smart move in this respect.

There are some things I take issue with, such as forcing actual classes on characters. Since Morrowind the TES games have been all about doing whatever you want whenever you want. Sick of swinging that axe around? Start using that bow. Sick of the bow? Start summoning daedra to kill your enemies. Want to be the one making that landing blow? I see you have an axe in your inventory.... Forcing people to use traditional classes in a TES game is just not a TES game anymore. I think THAT is what is going to turn some people away.