I don't think you're disagreeing on cactbot, just adding to something I said. The issue is that I put it very, very loosely, so the problem lies in how I worded itQuote:
Originally Posted by LianaThorne
Cactbot does indeed do things automatically, and it bypasses reaction time. Because it's reading information coming from the server live.Quote:
Some features are indeed personal, as they tell you where to go based on what marker you have, but those are specific mechanics.
Well, from the experiences I've had when people I raided with used cactbot (which was loud and you could hear it over voice chat xD it was funny), it was E9S and the mechanics were pretty minute, you still needed to know what to do. But there was a call-out, I think on the pizza slices that was super awkward and came in way too late. They just didn't bother with that one. You still needed to know how to react to it. The call-outs weren't exactly intuitive.
However if we're going to use it in something as straightforward as... maybe Limit Cut? Or, nah, simpler: Construct 7's maths thing. Then yeah, you don't even need to think about it, just stand on the place. I said "It's no different than your raid leader doing it" because I have done call-outs for Construct 7 for 2 different people in my party while still having to resolve my own. If mechanics are straightforward enough, then you'll just need to react accordingly. And if the whole thing is global, then it's even easier. This, however, is assuming a human-like reaction time, which Cactbot does not have.
The rest is, as I said, the fact that Cactbot is a lot more personal, and as you said, instantaneous because it's reading directly from the server. Even in my own analogies, I still point out: Cactbot eliminates human error in terms of mentally resolving a mechanic.
That's the automation part of it: the fact that it does so without human input and instantly. Really, that information was kinda there, so it's not really disagreeing, but it was very loosely worded and just overall not properly conveyed. You're otherwise correct.
Twitch streamers still blatantly cheating on stream.
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03-01-2023, 08:31 PMMidareyukki
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03-02-2023, 08:38 PMVelKallorHence: using it is cheating.Quote:
The rest is, as I said, the fact that Cactbot is a lot more personal, and as you said, instantaneous because it's reading directly from the server. Even in my own analogies, I still point out: Cactbot eliminates human error in terms of mentally resolving a mechanic. That's the automation part of it: the fact that it does so without human input and instantly. Really, that information was kinda there, so it's not really disagreeing, but it was very loosely worded and just overall not properly conveyed. You're otherwise correct.
Ive asked this before and never gotten an answer: If people are , as they say, better players...why cant they beat these instances w / out all these addons? Id hazard a guess it points to a skill issue. -
03-02-2023, 08:46 PMIyrnthotaFor some people it is like that. For others it's about consistency and speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by VelKallor
You see it a lot with speedrunners who cheat.
It's not about skill, they have the skills to get the results they want. It's about getting to the result, quicker.
For speedrunners it's about getting that good run in 100 tries rather than 10,000.
For raiders I imagine it's about getting that clear in <5 wipes, rather than in 50. -
03-02-2023, 08:52 PMKolainaIt’s still questionable if they would clear the content without the use of third party tools. Being told how to handle the mechanics instead of learning them on their own, there’s a big difference. It’s hand holding. No skill about itQuote:
Originally Posted by Iyrnthota
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03-02-2023, 08:55 PMIyrnthotaI feel like I could just re-quote my previous comment here and it'd be just as relevant tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolaina
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03-02-2023, 08:58 PMStormpeaks"x mechanic is coming in 10 seconds" is not the same as "dont worry let the plugin do the job and move on its own", it's literally just a callout, it's not automation or a botQuote:
Originally Posted by Kolaina
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03-02-2023, 09:28 PMLianaThorneI don't think anyone is arguing whether or not cact physically moves your character for you or takes away full player control. Also, "x mech is coming in x seconds" isn't the only thing it does. As has been said above both by myself and others, it tells you specifically where to stand or a general idea of where to go. You really don't need to know the fight in the same way that a typical person without plugin access needs to. You know me, I'm a pretty big advocate for mods/plugins but in this sense, it does feel a bit gross to see people using them to avoid experiencing a fight properly. I can understand someone doing callouts in a static using it since they're ultimately the failsafe for people who might get confused, but otherwise...Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormpeaks
At least give yourself a chance to learn the fight/experience it without them before using them. They really aren't *that* complicated with a bit of effort put into understanding how they work. -
03-02-2023, 09:55 PMMidareyukki
Weird thought, but that's because it popped into my head after reading Liana say "They really aren't *that* complicated with a bit of effort put into understanding how they work."
It's odd to see Cactbot be so reviled at the same time that there are people who want content to be made easier. It's just funny to see both camps existing, because in some topics we'd say "people need to use their brains more, mechanics aren't complicated, they just require effort", but in other topics the prevalent message is "content should respect peoples' time, not everyone wants to tryhard and play optimally, people just want to have fun".
I'd get the hate on cheating if it were in Savage, because it's meant to be super hard. But casual players won't really care for that. They're not the ones raiding, doing runs for parses, care about world firsts and figuring out Ultimates. If they ever engage, it's after those have loooong been figured out and there are guides out there. Strats to make it so you don't need to figure the mechanic out, just react on the smallest possible inputs. So wouldn't Cactbot be okay for those people? But by the logic of "people should put in a bit more effort" (which I share btw) would shut that down, even for casual players.
I personally see Cactbot as a "mild cheat", though that's just me. It certainly doesn't look like the big bad people assume it is, but it does facilitate way too much. It certainly is doing better than a human would. But for the most part it's just call-outs. It's an "unnecessary crutch". Dw too much about me saying this tho; I don't make the rules or enforce them, SE's definition of a cheat is what matters. Just saying this because I know someone would take this out the window.
But I at the same time want there to be midcore content and fights to remain hard and challenging, as long as they're accessible (bc I'm colourblind, so sue me). Yet that also gets thrown out the window.
It's just weird how those two mindsets are existing without a middle ground?
If you don't find it weird, dw, I never said I was a genius. -
03-02-2023, 10:12 PMVelKallorMidareyukkiQuote:
It's odd to see Cactbot be so reviled at the same time that there are people who want content to be made easier.
Ive never asked for that. I have restated that they dont need to make story content HARDER, as that content is made to be easily completable. Midcore: where do you see Criterion and Variant in that category?
Forget the rewards, thats another argument entirely, but the content itself?
Do you see Criterion as midcore? If not, what would you be aiming for?
No. If you cant win without cheating, you dont deserve to win.Quote:
So wouldn't Cactbot be okay for those people?
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03-02-2023, 10:14 PMIyrnthotaI guess returning to my earlier comment, that's not entirely accurate, because for a lot of cheaters they can win without cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by VelKallor
It just takes longer, so they cheat to win quicker. -
03-02-2023, 10:26 PMSaraideYou are correct and a lot of people dont understand this. Cactbot doesnt cheat the end result, it cheats the learning process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iyrnthota
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03-02-2023, 10:28 PMMidareyukkiWell, that wasn't directed at you in specific. So if you didn't ask for that, grats I guess? I was just musing in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by VelKallor
I've never done Criterion :T so. Yeah. But Variant for me is pretty boring. Cute the first time I run through them, but they get repetitive really quickly. Mechanics are also pretty simple and with a lot of leniency. Nothing that really made me go "Oh this is cool!". Though that's more a review of the one and only Variant dungeon we have, and I've posted that somewhere on the appropriate threads. It's largely the same: "It feels barren, good idea, execution is on the weak side".
To me, I'd rather it be a weeeee bit harder, and with more noticeable changes than just one mechanic or cosmetics.
But I'm the kind of guy who liked Dalriada, Castrum Lacus Litore, Bozja in general. I liked Orbonne Monastery and the Ivalice Raids. I'd kill to have Dun Scaith more often. Because I might find the other stuff to be too easy, and Savage to just be the hard content that people who want hard content have. Yet every time do I hear people say "Nyeeeh absolutely not, those things should be made accessible weeeh!"
...and ok, valid, but, what, am I then going to have to deal with stuff that's too easy and doesn't acknowledge that I've grown a little since Crystal Tower and regular Dungeons to tackle something a bit cooler? Is my one and only midcore choice gonna be Expert Trials? Why can't we have cool content on Duty Finder that provides a bit more of a challenge while having easy mode content as we always have and hard mode content as we've mostly always had too? Why is it that those things have people clamour for a nerf rather than getting good? Because that content was made to be completable too, you just needed to learn the fight.
But whenever people tell them to get good, ah no wait, we're being toxic.
...still. That's just how I personally feel. Which in turn led me to point out what I said.
People who run things with Cactbot don't care about a win. I don't even think they consider it "a win".
And to me, I'd rather have people run Cactbot if that meant that we get to have challenging content that respected you as a player for more than a couple patches without being nerfed.
But third party tools are banned. And the reason people use third party tools is to make life easier. Which I assumed the OF's was on board with that, because people clearly wanted to make stuff easier. But then here people say "people should learn the fight". When unfortunately that's not what people want to do. Had they cared to learn the fight, if that alone deterred people from wanting easier stuff, they wouldn't be asking for content to get nerfed. Clearly "learn the fight" isn't the only factor to things. -
03-02-2023, 10:28 PMMika_ZahardMy reaction every time THAT person makes a topic here..Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
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03-02-2023, 10:33 PMMidareyukkiYeah, again, my experience with Cactbot has been with people who have cleared Ultimates and Savage tiers on-launch. They're the sort of people to tackle content as it's released. Which to my knowledge Cactbot isn't updated on-release. Idk how it's updated, but I assume there needs to be a strategy people agree on for it to finally update. Others are just using it because.... they're just using it, they don't really care. I'd like to think the people who care about a win are the ones caring to do it as soon as the content drops, but... obviously I'm wrong. A win is still valid even after so long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraide
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03-02-2023, 10:42 PMSaraideYea week 1 groups are an entirely seperate case from that. If they want triggers or anything like that they need to create those themselves. Cactbot can only be updated once someone has cleared, just like a guide can only be made once something has been cleared.Quote:
Originally Posted by Midareyukki
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03-02-2023, 10:45 PMVelKallorJust one pickup from that post, if I was to make an educated guess, Id add "Yet" to that sentence. I cant say specifically as no one has said or hinted at, but it stands to reason that this content may or will be added to..I cant see SE just leaving it at one instance.Quote:
Though that's more a review of the one and only Variant dungeon we have
My GUESS is that there will be more, but will appear in future patches. For those that enjoy that content, I sincerely hope so. -
03-02-2023, 11:12 PMKolainaI’m aware. But someone also said it can tell you how to deal with mechanics. While not making your character autonomous, that’s more than naming an upcoming mechanicQuote:
Originally Posted by Stormpeaks
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03-02-2023, 11:15 PMKolainaSo you admit these add ons are cheating thenQuote:
Originally Posted by Iyrnthota
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03-02-2023, 11:22 PMMidareyukkiThe worst feedback they've gotten were the rewards. I think they consider it a success, so I'm sure we're bound to see more in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by VelKallor
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03-02-2023, 11:42 PMIyrnthotaI never claimed otherwiseQuote:
Originally Posted by Kolaina
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04-03-2023, 07:53 PMNightHourACT is not a mod.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renalt
It doesn't modify game files in any way, shape or form.
It reads combat logs. -
04-03-2023, 07:58 PMKolainaSemantics. It accesses the game files in a way not intended by the devs. Way to revitalize this threadQuote:
Originally Posted by NightHour
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04-03-2023, 08:11 PMVukimukinukiduki
using act isn't cheating
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04-03-2023, 08:25 PMRemishQuote:
Originally Posted by NightHour
Yoshi P has outright said that it is cheating. However, he does elaborate into the functionality of ACT being mostly a calculator that reads the battle log and compares it to someone writing it down on a piece of paper being comparatively the same thing. He never once says that ACT is okay, but he does hint and allude that it's a pretty low priority thing for SE and the staff to care about compared to other things. Secondly, ACT is capable of doing more than being a calculator. There is catbot callouts and other various plugins. Several timers that SE very much doesn't allow that are bundled with ACT. Not to mention several other functions like auto marker plugins which are often going back and forth within the ultimate community wither or not it's cheating. Waymarker presets which got a temp ban in P7 Savage. Pretending ACT isn't a door of entry for other various cheats is delusional. ACT is basically a cheat hub that comes as a blank slate until the user installs more features themselves. Pretending it's not cheating is disingenuous. Most of the community doesn't care about ACT but that doesn't make it any less of a third party add on that provides a slight advantage based off how you use it. I'm also pretty certain that a vast majority of people would consider ACT's Cactbot, Auto Makers. Triggers, and Timers to be "Mods". As far as SE goes with ACT and 'cheating'. It's a very much don't ask, don't tell, don't harass, don't stream with it displayed and you won't be caught and punished type deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vukimukinukiduki
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04-03-2023, 08:37 PMKuroka
It lowers the bar and so ppl are more open to cheat it, you can like that or not but its like that, ive seen it plenty...
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04-03-2023, 08:47 PMXaphireI need to ask you - why do you even care? I absolutely agree that the mods used to place waymarkers are a step too far and the ban for creating them was deserved. Those weren't accomplished via ACT. As several people have said, ACT doesn't interact with the game. It reads the combat log and can run timers. CACTbot cheats the learning process of fights, but it doesn't execute mechanics for you. It doesn't show you where you need to stand. (I do think cactbot and automarkers cheat the spirit of the game though, personally).Quote:
Originally Posted by Remish
I've used triggers personally, but usually just to play a sound to remind me to do a thing which is helpful after 2 hours of prog raiding to stop me from tunnel-visioning. Looking at you achievement profile though, you don't raid. So, I ask again, why do you even care? It has what looks to be zero impact on your gameplay experience. -
04-03-2023, 09:04 PMVelKallorBecause its cheating. it gives you an unfair advantage.Quote:
I need to ask you - why do you even care?
That arent in the native client.Quote:
It reads the combat log and can run timers
It. is. cheating. it is playing the game for you. It is telling you about markers and mechanics that other people cant see.Quote:
CACTbot cheats the learning process of fights, but it doesn't execute mechanics for you
Whether or not a person raids is IRRELEVANT to the fact you are using a third party addon you have been told time and time again NOT TO USE. You are cheating by using these programs..and to be blunt, if you cant win by playing without all these addons and crutches, then maybe thats a skill issue you need to address.Quote:
I've used triggers personally, but usually just to play a sound to remind me to do a thing which is helpful after 2 hours of prog raiding to stop me from tunnel-visioning. Looking at you achievement profile though, you don't raid. So, I ask again, why do you even care? It has what looks to be zero impact on your gameplay experience.
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04-03-2023, 09:06 PMhynaku
If ones think they need to use all these third-party programs, looks like to me Yoshi just needs to do away with all the hard raids and content.
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04-03-2023, 09:06 PMSaraideIt wouldnt be the first time someone having making up their complete lack of experience or knowledge with overconfidence. Doesnt have to be as everyone could be an alt character but it would not surprise me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaphire
Maybe you shouldnt go on about skill issues. Maybe you should learn how angles work first lmao.Quote:
Originally Posted by VelKallor
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04-03-2023, 09:10 PMVelKallorWhether I rise or fall, pass or fail, at least either way i will do it without addons. Honestly. On my own merits.Quote:
Maybe you shouldnt go on about skill issues. Maybe you should learn how angles work first lmao.
As it should be. -
04-03-2023, 09:14 PMRemishI could ask you the same thing. Why do you care? I don't know about you but I was having a conversation. Saying why do you care isn't the gotcha you think it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaphire
Or maybe I'm overconfident because my experience and knowledge isn't made up. Funny how that works right? I know, it's a hard pill to swallow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraide
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04-03-2023, 09:21 PMSaraideWell I would hope you are just confident and not overconfident. It's actually not a hard pill to swallow. That's why I said forum characters could just be someone's alt which means looking at achievements doesnt necessarily tell you anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remish
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04-03-2023, 09:32 PMRemishPersonally, I don't really pay attention to the character information on left or bother to lodestone/fflog a person. It's no different than any other social media to me where that information doesn't even exist and people that reply could still be on phony accounts. I don't really see value in trying to discredit a person through their personal achievements. I always felt it was toxic to do so. I can however see why people would feel more comfortable using fake accounts because people do like to run background scans and I think most people just want to say their piece and move on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraide
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04-03-2023, 09:58 PMVukimukinukidukiI don't care. The game has dps checks so people need meters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remish
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04-03-2023, 10:15 PMSannaR
Yay for necros. I'll be waiting for more cause of the maintenance.
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04-03-2023, 10:21 PMRemishSounds like a skill issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vukimukinukiduki
Joke aside, I actually support ACT. I'm just not going to around pretending it's not X and X just so I can sleep better at night. -
04-03-2023, 10:31 PMMcg55ssI watch the ones that speedrunning for charity every once in a whileQuote:
Originally Posted by SassyAssassin
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04-03-2023, 10:32 PMArcaviusGreyasheKinda is, though, because you want to change how people play, which is SE's job, and nobody's arguing over that. It's just not your place to do that, hence why you could, and should, not care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remish
I take pride in clearing without using cactbot or whatevs, but I don't care if some of my mates, or even less, people I don't know, use some, because... that's what they want to do.
Calling out skill issue isn't the gotcha you think it is, on the other hand, because people that cheat don't think they're better than others, they just want mounts/glamour. -
04-03-2023, 10:38 PMRemishI'll need you to cite where I said I am trying to change how people play. Looking back, I only explained what ACT was and is and what it was really capable of doing. I never at any given point said that people shouldn't use it. I even said that I support ACT. Just because you don't care about a thing doesn't make it any less of something. So no it's not the gotcha you think it is because you're all twisting my words to suit a narrative. Also I said Skill Issue as a joke because they left themselves wide open for that meme and I wanted to be snide in a playful way.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe
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04-03-2023, 10:46 PMArcaviusGreyasheI was merely using your answer to answer VelKallor or the likes and make a statement, there's no need to feel personnaly attacked on anything. Also :Quote:
Originally Posted by Remish
Yeah, I got 861 messages that got twisted like that. Let's make it 862 because I'm pretty sure this one will be too. That's what this forum is all about.Quote:
because you're all twisting my words to suit a narrative