The difficulty of Normal Content in this game needs to increase.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

And too the rest of the party are now punished by having to pick up the slack being down a member. Would only serve to make the party detest that downed player which due to the absurd restrictions in the ToS; not allowed.

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I don't know about the rest of ya, but I already get a similar feeling when I see people stacking Brink of Death.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Honestly, I'd have to agree with the OP. The difficulty on general content in the game is too easy. Half way to the of an Ex trail would be a good spot of difficulty.
The meta of running a dungeon pulling all available mobs and easily AoEing them down is rather boring. Having to CC mobs and actually use damage mitigation and support skills should be baseline gameplay requirements.

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I agree with OP. I don’t know why suddenly we have to regress to super-easy mode, while casuals could clear dungeons in WoW 20 years ago that required basic CC, sleep, sheep, etc. Basic Esuna, Dispel, stun. Casuals can still definitely be taught to do this.

We’re not asking for anything hardcore. We’re not asking for 10 instances of CC or esuna in 1 dungeon. Maybe just 1 or 2 instances of each. Enough.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Easy fix: Limit combat resurrections. Give them a considerable cooldown so you can't just zombie your way through fights. There now people are actually punished for dying even if the content doesn't have an enrage.

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What does that fix? You do realize that players that are KO'd when the fight is cleared still get the clear, right? They can even still roll for loot. All this says is that the healer(s) are too bitter to break off their ST spam to do their job.

If a player is dying multiple times in NM, there is usually more to the story than just a trollol.

Gonna be real funny to see how fast people's tunes change if something like this ever happens. The only thing that'll be different is the number of wipes, because this game's players haven't improved since the day ARR launched. It'll just be an unnecessary burden put on healers, many of whom are already on the verge of quitting as it is.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Titania filtering people intensifies.

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I remember how an average party couldn't get through Titania. Sometimes they still couldn't get through it even with several stacks of Echo because the tanks don't understand how to tank it and DPS is low even with Echo. The biggest thing that has probably helped since was forcing leveling dungeons to have a minimum item level so that people don't go into the trial with second tier Stormblood gear.

Remember how everyone used to abandon Steps of Faith? I do, because I waited 40 minutes when I queued into it in Heavensward and everyone abandoned immediately, which was soul crushing enough to make me consider quitting because I couldn't progress. Then I tried one more time and 40 minutes later, they all abandoned again and I had to have a message ready to ask them to stay. By the time I'd sent it only 3 people remained to see it and they admitted they were about to leave too, but would stay and wait for it to refill.

Then we have the first EW trial, which just like the extreme version, I've seen people flat out unable to do until I put a Dorito on myself.

This is what actually happens when you gate the MSQ behind hard content.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I remember how an average party couldn't get through Titania. Sometimes they still couldn't get through it even with several stacks of Echo because the tanks don't understand how to tank it and DPS is low even with Echo. The biggest thing that has probably helped since was forcing leveling dungeons to have a minimum item level so that people don't go into the trial with second tier Stormblood gear.

Remember how everyone used to abandon Steps of Faith? I do, because I waited 40 minutes when I queued into it in Heavensward and everyone abandoned immediately, which was soul crushing enough to make me consider quitting because I couldn't progress. Then I tried one more time and 40 minutes later, they all abandoned again and I had to have a message ready to ask them to stay. By the time I'd sent it only 3 people remained to see it and they admitted they were about to leave too, but would stay and wait for it to refill.

Then we have the first EW trial, which just like the extreme version, I've seen people flat out unable to do until I put a Dorito on myself.

This is what actually happens when you gate the MSQ behind hard content.

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But after they failed, then they learned didn’t they? Eventually people learn and get past through it.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I remember how an average party couldn't get through Titania. Sometimes they still couldn't get through it even with several stacks of Echo because the tanks don't understand how to tank it and DPS is low even with Echo. The biggest thing that has probably helped since was forcing leveling dungeons to have a minimum item level so that people don't go into the trial with second tier Stormblood gear.

Remember how everyone used to abandon Steps of Faith? I do, because I waited 40 minutes when I queued into it in Heavensward and everyone abandoned immediately, which was soul crushing enough to make me consider quitting because I couldn't progress. Then I tried one more time and 40 minutes later, they all abandoned again and I had to have a message ready to ask them to stay. By the time I'd sent it only 3 people remained to see it and they admitted they were about to leave too, but would stay and wait for it to refill.

Then we have the first EW trial, which just like the extreme version, I've seen people flat out unable to do until I put a Dorito on myself.

This is what actually happens when you gate the MSQ behind hard content.

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I think the idea here is that, if you make the regular content on average a little more difficult, players will be on average a little more competent so you don't run into hard blocks like this the moment something even slightly difficult blocks your way.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I remember how an average party couldn't get through Titania.

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Some things never change. I dread seeing Titania in trial roulette, because I know there's about a 50% chance it's just going to be a wipefest. It has been almost four years, and people still can't do the bloody fight.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

And too the rest of the party are now punished by having to pick up the slack being down a member. Would only serve to make the party detest that downed player which due to the absurd restrictions in the ToS; not allowed.

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Which leads to thr WoW style of screams, fingerpointing, abuse, obscenities, blame game....yeah no thanks.

Its funny that i see that these claims of players not being "competent"..I play in a JP server and those people are competent as hell, capable, skilled..ever stop to think that maybe its your server?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Then we have the first EW trial, which just like the extreme version, I've seen people flat out unable to do until I put a Dorito on myself.

This is what actually happens when you gate the MSQ behind hard content.

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People learn from mistakes, its the natural way of things.

If the content before this had prepared people for this trial, then they would not be struggling with it.

Every time you wipe, you just learned something and got better at the game.

Wiping is a natural way to learn.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I think the idea here is that, if you make the regular content on average a little more difficult, players will be on average a little more competent so you don't run into hard blocks like this the moment something even slightly difficult blocks your way.

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Pretty much. This is why we had so many people get stuck in the "In from the Cold" instance. If more instance fights had you actually using your brain to think before acting more players would be less likely to get stuck behind said content.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I think the idea here is that, if you make the regular content on average a little more difficult, players will be on average a little more competent so you don't run into hard blocks like this the moment something even slightly difficult blocks your way.

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Once again, since it appears some of you still don't get it, for some people such as myself, we are PHYSICALLY unable to get any better. I know my rotations and the mechanics of many fights. I just am not physically capable of handling MSQs being made harder than they already are.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Once again, since it appears some of you still don't get it, for some people such as myself, we are PHYSICALLY unable to get any better. I know my rotations and the mechanics of many fights. I just am not physically capable of handling MSQs being made harder than they already are.

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This just contradicts itself?

You cannot get any better.. but you already got better by learning a rotation and mechanics..

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Once again, since it appears some of you still don't get it, for some people such as myself, we are PHYSICALLY unable to get any better. I know my rotations and the mechanics of many fights. I just am not physically capable of handling MSQs being made harder than they already are.

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MSQ can stay casual. A difficulty meter, like what we have for Instance fights would be nice, so players who do want a more challenge can have it in their content experience.

Also, Rolder50 is saying making the content a little harder, not outright saying it should be extreme levels of hard.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

This just contradicts itself?

You cannot get any better.. but you already got better by learning a rotation and mechanics..

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Seriously? Are you THAT dense? I have "Rested Tremor Syndrome", similar to "Parkinson's Disease". No amount of knowing rotations or mechanics is going to help if one cannot stop shaking.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Once again, since it appears some of you still don't get it, for some people such as myself, we are PHYSICALLY unable to get any better. I know my rotations and the mechanics of many fights. I just am not physically capable of handling MSQs being made harder than they already are.

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I dont want to assume or downplay your concern, but for example, each boss requires 2 more Esunas, you cannot handle this? OP is not asking for a major revamp of difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Soge01

MSQ can stay casual. A difficulty meter, like what we have for Instance fights would be nice, so players who do want a more challenge can have it in their content experience.

Also, Rolder50 is saying making the content a little harder, not outright saying it should be extreme levels of hard.

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I am at the very limits of being able to complete solo MSQ duties. Any harder and I could no longer play.

Some of my favorite content ever is the raids inside field ops like Castrum Lacus Litore. You get rewarded with extra chests if you are fast enough to save more prisoners. I like this idea of making it fairy easy to pass but rewarding more skillful play. Adrammalech is also a super fun boss, just the right amount of challenge when it starts combining mechanics like knockback + aoe + pyretic. Things like this and Baldesion Arsenal feel like true raids and are some of the greatest instanced content in the game imo but there's only a few and they are completely unsupported by roulettes.

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Pretty much. This is why we had so many people get stuck in the "In from the Cold" instance

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That scenario had some huge holes in it

1. You had ZERO idea where the fuel was, my first run through was literally searching high and low for it, dodging mobs...and getting attacked anyway...theres an old joke about a needle in a haystack...knowing which haystack to look in helps.. The terrain was such that you could go over and over and over it again and still not find it ( matter of fact I DID do that and it was unbelievably frustrating )

.."Here are six CITY BLOCKS find one fuel canister and one guy with a key but we wont tell you where oh and theres a time limit", sorry but some kind of marker or at least some IDEA of where to look would have helped....

The canisters themselves, you searched each one and came up with nothing over and over again...dozens of ruined buildings and no idea where the hell to even start....

The mobs themselves were annoying as hell, even with care you still strayed into their hitboxes, I also found it somewhat odd that amongst ALL these buildings and dead bodies NOT ONE of them had weapons. armour that could be looted or used. Soldiers didnt carry weapons or spare ammo? Really? REALLY??? Magitek armour with NO fuel, when they were fighting did they do so on an empty tank?

I got it done, obviously, but TBH part of that scenario wasnt even a single red marker to show you where to even start, every single other scenario at LEAST gives you that..it was good and a fun instance, I grant you..with a high frustration factor.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

People learn from mistakes, its the natural way of things.

If the content before this had prepared people for this trial, then they would not be struggling with it.

Every time you wipe, you just learned something and got better at the game.

Wiping is a natural way to learn.

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The thing is, not everyone is interested in getting better at the game. Some people just want to play the game at the easiest difficulty possible because this is how they find their fun. Those type of players are more likely to outright quit if they find it too hard instead of getting better.
Sure I personally wouldn't mind if the MSQ was a little more exciting but make it too hard and we'll just lose players. And I don't think it's a good thing for the game to gatekeep very casual players from accessing features like Island Sanctuary because they couldn't "git good".

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Which leads to thr WoW style of screams, fingerpointing, abuse, obscenities, blame game....yeah no thanks.

Its funny that i see that these claims of players not being "competent"..I play in a JP server and those people are competent as hell, capable, skilled..ever stop to think that maybe its your server?

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Oh I see. JP servers have no mediocre players then? Must all congregate in a single place. Uh huh. Everyone seems skilled when you fall below the bar yourself

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

But after they failed, then they learned didn’t they? Eventually people learn and get past through it.

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The veterans who had done Steps of Faith did not want to do it at all, therefore they refused to help new players clear it because it was too much effort for them and they kept abandoning it. So no. I had to actually beg people to help me with it and back then we did not have much of an item level increase over Steps of Faith, so unsyncing was pointless and just like most new players don't, I didn't really know much about that feature then (not that it was much of an item level increase at the time).

If you keep running into these difficulty gates over and over again after waiting 40 minutes in a queue when you want to get through ARR and 4 expansions then you're surely going to just give up.

What would be nice is if we had other ways to adjust difficulty, such as a setting to hide telegraphs on an individual basis, or a hard mode setting new players can tick to queue into harder versions of the same thing and a roulette to supply it that we could unlock that didn't make the dungeons and trials that much harder, but just did 1 or 2 simple things like removing the telegraphs and syncing to minimum so you have to think a little more, rather than going full blown criterion difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Oh I see. JP servers have no mediocre players then? Must all congregate in a single place. Uh huh. Everyone seems skilled when you fall below the bar yourself

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It's more of a social norm in Japan to learn to play at an acceptable level.

'The nail that sticks out gets hammered' is a real thing.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Oh I see. JP servers have no mediocre players then? Must all congregate in a single place. Uh huh. Everyone seems skilled when you fall below the bar yourself

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Actually, JP servers have good communities, good people, a cooperative and happy atmosphere, their players are competent and capable with a lot of patience, we did Omega the other day , we had a new player who kept dying to the mechs, so one of the jp players did a / beckon to the new player, put a marker above his head, then /pointed to himself, the message was clear "stick close to me"....result we oneshot it.

Newbie got a /hug before the player vanished.

As for that last comment, Ill just say you sound like Firemage and leave it at that. :p:p:p:p

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

I dont want to assume or downplay your concern, but for example, each boss requires 2 more Esunas, you cannot handle this? OP is not asking for a major revamp of difficulty.

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you forget that currently a lot of the forum healing community would see tossing an Esuna as breaking their DPS rotation.

I dont mind more to do, thats fine for me, I dont mind some difficulty adjustments, but there isnt an easy way to do that given everyone plays differently. some may not be able to, some may not want to and some regard themselves as green dps..

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Actually, JP servers have good communities, good people, a cooperative and happy atmosphere, their players are competent and capable with a lot of patience, we did Omega the other day , we had a new player who kept dying to the mechs, so one of the jp players did a / beckon to the new player, put a marker above his head, then /pointed to himself, the message was clear "stick close to me"....result we oneshot it.

Newbie got a /hug before the player vanished.

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This basically.

The JP playerbase just have a better mentality towards playing with others, it's seen as a terrible shame to drag a group down by being incompetent so they work towards getting better and improving at the game so they don't stand out.

I would actually like to see them change up the mechanics similar to ... Alphascape 1.0 I think it is? The boss in that trial never does the same rotation, and each encounter mixes it up. That's a start. I think they should apply that to all bosses in more than trials, as well. It would increase some difficulty, while not making it overboard.

I know Yoshi-P is big on carries for others, to help people along.

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t's seen as a terrible shame to drag a group down by being incompetent

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Id be interested Dixie to see if

1. You now acknowledge what that player said about a PHYSICAL disablility that you seem to have ignored.

2. i am yet to see YOUR definition of "competent".

Would that be needing a Masters degree and 6 years of experience to be allowed to work as a cashier at $8 an hour?

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Alphascape 1.0 I think it is?

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So you want STORY dungeons tuned to an OPTIONAL 8 MAN raid level? Thats insane.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

That scenario had some huge holes in it

1. You had ZERO idea where the fuel was, my first run through was literally searching high and low for it, dodging mobs...and getting attacked anyway...theres an old joke about a needle in a haystack...knowing which haystack to look in helps.. The terrain was such that you could go over and over and over it again and still not find it ( matter of fact I DID do that and it was unbelievably frustrating )

.."Here are six CITY BLOCKS find one fuel canister and one guy with a key but we wont tell you where oh and theres a time limit", sorry but some kind of marker or at least some IDEA of where to look would have helped....

The canisters themselves, you searched each one and came up with nothing over and over again...dozens of ruined buildings and no idea where the hell to even start....

The mobs themselves were annoying as hell, even with care you still strayed into their hitboxes, I also found it somewhat odd that amongst ALL these buildings and dead bodies NOT ONE of them had weapons. armour that could be looted or used. Soldiers didnt carry weapons or spare ammo? Really? REALLY??? Magitek armour with NO fuel, when they were fighting did they do so on an empty tank?

I got it done, obviously, but TBH part of that scenario wasnt even a single red marker to show you where to even start, every single other scenario at LEAST gives you that..it was good and a fun instance, I grant you..with a high frustration factor.

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I think this actually even proves the point why we need slightly higher difficulty.

I admit, I also struggled with "In from the Cold". The reason we all struggled was because we were NEVER conditioned that MSQ could hide an item away like that. It is out of the norms.

Throughout our lives, an item to click in MSQ is always presented 5 feet away from our faces, in plain view.

But now, if, for example, in 7.0, they decided to introduce a similar quest with similar mechanics like this, we all would know what to do and what to expect. It wouldn't be out of the norms. Basically, as a community, we've gotten tougher, albeit slightly.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Id be interested Dixie to see if

1. You now acknowledge what that player said about as PHYSICAL disablility that you seem to have ignored

2. i am yet to see YOUR definition of "competent".

Would that be needing a Masters degree and 6 years of experience to be allowed to work as a cashier at $8 an hour?

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For one they did not refer to a disability at all

Second, I too, have a physical disability in my left hand. it may not be as major, as it is just a tendon that never healed from when it was damaged, but it does impair the way i use a keyboard or controller.
I can still play the game at a level where i am not dragging other people down, but without any information of what this 'physically cant' actually means, then nobody can draw a conclusion as to what that poster means.

Being competent at the game is just having the ability to learn from your mistakes and apply that information to get better.
Being incompetent is throwing yourself into a group you are not ready for, and making 3/7 other people suffer because you never bothered to get better.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Id be interested Dixie to see if

1. You now acknowledge what that player said about a PHYSICAL disablility that you seem to have ignored.

2. i am yet to see YOUR definition of "competent".

Would that be needing a Masters degree and 6 years of experience to be allowed to work as a cashier at $8 an hour?

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That's a great point people seem to overlook a lot. We have people of all ages and abilities out there playing this game. If they can't all at least enjoy the base level of content, that's going to drive a lot of people away. I find it all fun and fairly relaxing. I save the stress for higher tiers and I don't want to see more people struggling in the lowest tier. Roulette can be challenging enough with new people and those that can't quite get a hang of things.

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For one they did not refer to a disability at all

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What do you think Resting Tremor Syndrome is? Before you say it doesnt exist, it does.

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I can still play the game at a level where i am not dragging other people down, but without any information of what this 'physically cant' actually means, then nobody can draw a conclusion as to what that poster means.

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Took me ten seconds to check what i already knew, fine and coarse tremors in muscles, often an early symptom of Parkinsons. You know what THAT is, dont you? Or do I need to explain further?

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Being competent at the game is just having the ability to learn from your mistakes and apply that information to get better.
Being incompetent is throwing yourself into a group you are not ready for, and making 3/7 other people suffer because you never bothered to get better.

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Not what i asked you.

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That's a great point people seem to overlook a lot. We have people of all ages and abilities out there playing this game. If they can't all at least enjoy the base level of content, that's going to drive a lot of people away.

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Deveryn, from what i can see here a lot of these people dont CARE about anyone other than themselves, and to be honest theyd be fine with "weeding out the bads", i.e people who dont play perfectly at 10000000000000000-000% efficiency with perfect rotations.

This is actually the toxic WOW mentality, WOW has fallen over and now they want FF 14 to be like WOW..lastly, I find the idea of making this thread hysterically funny, not to mention utterly hypocritical since the very same "competent players" who demanded "challenging hard content" cant clear it without CHEATING and a hundred addons.

"Normal content needs to be harder but we ELITE raiders cant clear Ultimate content that we demanded................WITHOUT CHEATING"

Seriously....theres a fundamental disconnect here.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

The game does not get harder the longer you play it.

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No it's the opposite.

Before I started playing this game, I raid a lot in WoW. Went all the way to the Lich-King and did a bit of heroic in Cata, and leading my own raid group. When I switched, I remember Coil kicked my arse, the "I need echo to clear" level of butt kicking. It's not until the very last tier that I managed to clear when it was still relevant.

And guess what? Comparing to current raid, Coil wasn't even "hard". The jobs were more simple, the mechs were straight forward, and overall required less precision. Yet these day I hardly struggle any more, because I no longer pay the "no0b tax". When I'm in party though, I can still regularly see new "no0b" (aka the old me) playing the game. If you go to the WoW forum that's still true btw. You'll see Mythic raiders who thought they would wrap up FF14's savage quickly during down time 'cause they heard about houw easy and casual raiding in this game is, and surprise how hard the last fight of a tier kicking their arse.


The point is ... once you play something long enough, it's less about the content getting easier but more about your experience. As such, the longer you play, the more skewl your perception of difficulty will become. The casual content is not tune for the sake of the veterans, but to please newcommer, that's why they're called casual content. If casual content is made hard enough to provide challenge to veterans player, it will likely become a brickwall to new players.


And that is not reconcilable. It's why some people eventually leave to play another game, citing they need to seek new "challenge". And once they found it, it's not necessary because the new game is harder than the old, it's simply because they no longer have the institutional knowledge and experience. And this apply to many places in real life, not just gaming.

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. You'll see Mythic raiders who thought they would wrap up FF14's savage quickly during down time 'cause they heard about houw easy and casual raiding in this game is, and surprise how hard the last fight of a tier kicking their arse.

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I saw those and havent laughed so hard in years, it was ABSOLUTE schadenfreude to see their egos deflated so fast.

Before "We are the best of the best we can do this ezpz"

After: "MEDIC!!!!"

https://media.tenor.com/6omAW8yw6_0A...-fail-fail.gif

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Originally Posted by Alrin

As a someone who main healers in this game i have to say something:

Your post glared at me when I opened the forum. Don't you dare to ruin what is today. You have to dosis something better because you look like malefic person. (Pun intended)

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1 could say you really broiled her.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

If casual content is made hard enough to provide challenge to veterans player, it will likely become a brickwall to new players.

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The casual content of the game should be challenging enough to a casual player that they have to adapt and grow as a player in order to complete it.
Having 0 difficulty MSQ/casual content in the game does not promote player growth, it just causes them to sit back and lazy ride the way through the game without the need to ever learn.

When those players reach the end game, and jump into current tier dungeons/raids, even on normal mode, they die to mechanics like AOE Circles, because throughout the MSQ, they were never punished for standing in them.

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When those players reach the end game, and jump into current tier dungeons/raids, even on normal mode, they die to mechanics like AOE Circles, because throughout the MSQ, they were never punished for standing in them.

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My dear dear Dixiebell,. I have seen VETERAN players, raiders with relic weps and titles for Savage etc die to simple mechanics.............in Deltascape. I have seen veteran players forget or neglect to stack in Prae, I have seen veteran players with raid achieves wearing the wrong gear or getting their rears kicked...........in Sastasha.

So: Seriously. No. Just no.

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When those players reach the end game, and jump into current tier dungeons/raids, even on normal mode, they die to mechanics like AOE Circles, because throughout the MSQ, they were never punished for standing in them.

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Assuming they even do....this isnt WOW, FF 14 isnt raid or die, this isnt a raid centred game, FF 14 isnt raid do m plus pvp or GTFO There is PLENTY to do outside of instanced content.

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Having 0 difficulty MSQ/casual content in the game does not promote player growth, it just causes them to sit back and lazy ride the way through the game without the need to ever learn.

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i dont know WHERE you get this delusion that MSQ content isnt difficult or challenging. Those encounters DO have a very hard mode on them...or had you forgotten?..so if you wish you CAN do these on hard mode anytime you want a 'challenge"

But you did know that..didnt you.

You just chose not to mention it.

Hm?

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I admit, I also struggled with "In from the Cold". The reason we all struggled was because we were NEVER conditioned that MSQ could hide an item away like that. It is out of the norms.

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If I was to drop you into the middle of a Sydney city block, tell you to find one injured man with a key and then some fuel, the VERY FIRST question you would ask me is "where do I start". The fact you have to find the man FIRST was also silly, I found the damned armour first and the game wouldnt let me take the fuel canister out. That was IMO dumb.

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Throughout our lives, an item to click in MSQ is always presented 5 feet away from our faces, in plain view.

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Never said that. Said a marker or at least general idea of WHERE to start looking was a good idea.

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But now, if, for example, in 7.0, they decided to introduce a similar quest with similar mechanics like this, we all would know what to do and what to expect. It wouldn't be out of the norms. Basically, as a community, we've gotten tougher, albeit slightly.

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In all truth I did enjoy it, but to an extent the design itself needed work before release. Even a wide red circle ( which has been seen before ) would have been be a useful clue...either that or kill / extend the damned timer.

The game is about having fun and not about making it harder for players not to enjoy it. You already have options like Minium ILVL and for solo duties have option to play it very easy to very hard. You also have savage, EX, and ultimate duties. I don't see what your complaint is about normal content be too easy.