Did SE threaten to not make ultimates anymore?

I mean if they decide not to waste time on Ultimates maybe they can devote time to making Hrothgar and Viera wear hats. Maybe come up with meaningful rewards for regular content instead of glowsticks for being really good at Dance Dance Revolution?

They should probably crack down on people that use addons given all the botting, cheating at the hardest content and toxic wintrading and open cheating in PvP.

I hope that with Yoshi P stating yet AGAIN that 3rd party tools are against the Law, are illegal, are not permitted, are prohibited that people will take the hint that they probably shouldn't be used and if they get caught they deserve everything that's coming to them.

So now that it's been exposed that the best players either cheat or condone cheating it will be hard to take someone seriously for clearing masochist content and is just now a big neon light for this person is a big time cheater lol lmao everytime you see someone pose with a glowstick or a top 100 PvP armor set.

And that alone is amazing.

And the only reason you have a White Knight Army defending their use is they are using them or can't live without them and it's really sad. So any time I hear stuff like I raid for the accomplishment of clearing the fight I can just say "yeah bullshit".

His message kinda came off as sad to me. One of those "I gave you hard content that can be cleared with dedication and hard work but you're relying more so on third party tools to get it done somewhat easier..."

Very few third-party tools even make fights easier to begin with, and the handful that do still can't play the game for you. There's no reason for anyone to get bent out of shape over it. Point blank; most raiders in the game do utilize third-party tools, whether they want to admit it or not. That is the norm - yes, even for JP raid teams. Nothing about this is new or fascinating. It's only an issue because someone was dumb enough to out themselves, thereby painting a nice big target on their whole team's back.

Tl;dr: Yoshi-P either overreacted or over-acted, depending on one's perspective. There is zero chance he isn't already aware of the amount of third-party tool usage going on. There is also little to no chance of them discontinuing Ultimates over this, although the resources that go into said Ultimates could be put to better use elsewhere anyway.

Quote:

---

And you're missing a very important point yourself. These guys are aiming for something else beyond that. Sure, I have no doubt they could clear the fight legit "eventually". But unlike you who just tried to clear thing in a vacuum of your own pace, these guys was in a race with others for the world first clear. It's no different then why some athlete cheat, even the very top one (think Lance Armstrong), or people try to cheat on a difficult exam.

---

..and where is Armstrong now, hm? Stripped of his seven consecutive Tour de France titles, along with one Olympic medal.

Quote:

---

They did it for the recognition and the pat on their ego as a world first raiders.

---

..now they do have that recognition...as cheats, stripped of their clear and titles. They did all of that....for nothing. They cheated, they got caught, they lost everything.

Quote:

---

Sure, I have no doubt they could clear the fight legit "eventually"

---

If you cant win on your own merits without a bunch of addons to play the game for you, you deserve to lose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VelKallor

If you cant win on your own merits without a bunch of addons to play the game for you, you deserve to lose.

---

Then almost all raid teams deserve to lose. Is it really an unfair advantage when pretty much everyone is doing it?

he speaks like an asian dad

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Then almost all raid teams deserve to lose. Is it really an unfair advantage when pretty much everyone is doing it?

---

As long as Console support exists it will always be unfair. It's also unfair on the basis that the content is not designed around addon/mods/cheats unlike WoW.

The issue now is that every player going forward as well as past achievement will be eyed with scrutiny. Congrats on clearing but did you cheat tho?

Fuck around and find out.

As far as I am concerned if you break the rules and get caught you deserve reprimand and that raiding essentially is a big joke.

So now anytime someone brags about not playing hard content or having Unreal clears I can just say "Ok Zoomer".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Then almost all raid teams deserve to lose. Is it really an unfair advantage when pretty much everyone is doing it?

---

"If all your friends jumped of a cliff, would you jump too?"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

As long as Console support exists it will always be unfair. It's also unfair on the basis that the content is not designed around addon/mods/cheats unlike WoW.

The issue now is that every player going forward as well as past achievement will be eyed with scrutiny. Congrats on clearing but did you cheat tho?

Fuck around and find out.

As far as I am concerned if you break the rules and get caught you deserve reprimand and that raiding essentially is a big joke.

So now anytime someone brags about not playing hard content or having Unreal clears I can just say "Ok Zoomer".

---

A lot of ultimate is about the emotions of working together and clearing together, the work you put in to get the reward out. Sure there are people who do it to flex on the noobs in limsa, but dont for a second believe these people care for others opinions if they cheated or not. Empty words from players like Vel are well.... opinions to be discarded without a second thought.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VelKallor

..and where is Armstrong now, hm? Stripped of his seven consecutive Tour de France titles, along with one Olympic medal.

---

Yeah, because he got caught. Now I'm not a betting man, but I'm willing to bet nobody would cheat if they assume they will get caught. They cheat because they believe the exactly opposite.

Quote:

---

..now they do have that recognition...as cheats, stripped of their clear and titles. They did all of that....for nothing. They cheated, they got caught, they lost everything.

If you cant win on your own merits without a bunch of addons to play the game for you, you deserve to lose.

---

And I'm not even exactly sure what you're trying to say here beside stating the super obvious, and none of it is relevant to the point I'm making.

Like you do what you do because you value these rainbow feeling and value, and I'm not faulting you for that. In fact, I applaud you for holding to those if you're truly being honest. But you seem to have this naive assumption that everyone else should also hold on to the same value that you do. These people play the game for a different reason that you do. In case it's not obvious to you, let me spell it out for you one more time:

The fact that they cheat to win, meaning they care very little if at all about the virtue you're trying to preach.

Quote:

---

But you seem to have this naive assumption that everyone else should also hold on to the same value that you do.

---

Well, yes, obviously.

What is the point of asking for the hardest content when you intend to cheat in order to win? Whats the point? To prove your cheating is better than the other guy? If you CANT WIN HONESTLY in content YOU demanded, then why do it at all?

Quote:

---

The fact that they cheat to win, meaning they care very little if at all about the virtue you're trying to preach.

---

Then maybe Yoshi has a point about whether or not they make future Ultimate encounters, if this is going to be the outcome. Remember what I posted earlier? My point was simple, I had to do it again and again and again..but I beat that scenario ON MY OWN MERITS.

I failed before because I hadnt gotten the mechanics down, but that made the final win that much more satisfying.

Ultimates are the hardest content we have, putting the skill of those who attempt it to the absolute edge...the warrior must be equal to that fight , else better not step foot on the battlefield at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VelKallor

Whats the point? To prove your cheating is better than the other guy? If you CANT WIN HONESTLY in content YOU demanded, then why do it at all?

---

The point is obvious, it just flied over your head. The point isn't about winning which you seem to be insisting at being the reason. The point is the benefit "winning" would bring, assuming you don't get caught of course. Like, sure Lance got every tittle he won stripped, but you know what, I bet he had a much more comfortable life and will continue to live more comfortable comparing to the life he would had if he had not cheat. I don't think he care about "legit" being the best cyclist in the world, and even if he did, it's probably a much lesser reason comparing to all the money of being a "winner" brought him.

Quote:

---

Then maybe Yoshi has a point about whether or not they make future Ultimate encounters,

---

That's like saying we should ban all cars because a few reckless drivers causing trouble on the street.

Quote:

---

but that made the final win that much more satisfying.

---

Again, good for you to care about something like that. I just don't get why you think everyone else would care about the same thing, when it's already obvious they are not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ivtrix

A lot of ultimate is about the emotions of working together and clearing together, the work you put in to get the reward out. Sure there are people who do it to flex on the noobs in limsa, but dont for a second believe these people care for others opinions if they cheated or not. Empty words from players like Vel are well.... opinions to be discarded without a second thought.

---

You're starting to sound like me :)

Quote:

---

Again, good for you to care about something like that. I just don't get why you think everyone else would care about the same thing, when it's already obvious they are not

---

Yes.

I know.

That speaks more about them, and who they are, than it will ever do about me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VelKallor

Yes.

I know.

That speaks more about them, and who they are, than it will ever do about me.

---

Says the person trying to hide how garbage they are so they get carried more often instead of properly contributing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FireMage

You're starting to sound like me :)

---

I KNEW IT! I've been saying you two should get married for some time! I want an invitation when it happens. If I don't get the invite..that's ok cause I'll be there in spirit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FireMage

You're starting to sound like me :)

---

we share a lot of the same philosophies and ideals, I just really your dislike your overall attitude

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ivtrix

we share a lot of the same philosophies and ideals, I just really your dislike your overall attitude

---

Sometimes we hate what we see in others because it's like a mirror :)

Kiss her already!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renalt

Kiss her already!

---

busy proggin this robo bitch cba

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VelKallor

What is the point of asking for the hardest content when you intend to cheat in order to win? Whats the point? To prove your cheating is better than the other guy? If you CANT WIN HONESTLY in content YOU demanded, then why do it at all?

---

For a lot of people, it's about the reward and not the accomplishment. It can be about the notoriety and momentary fame, good or bad.

Don't worry about why others do it. Do things for your own reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VelKallor

Then maybe Yoshi has a point about whether or not they make future Ultimate encounters, if this is going to be the outcome. Remember what I posted earlier? My point was simple, I had to do it again and again and again..but I beat that scenario ON MY OWN MERITS.

I failed before because I hadnt gotten the mechanics down, but that made the final win that much more satisfying.

Ultimates are the hardest content we have, putting the skill of those who attempt it to the absolute edge...the warrior must be equal to that fight , else better not step foot on the battlefield at all.

---

They should continue to make Ultimates. Make them for the players who are going to tackle them in an honest fashion with no interest in cheating. Allow them to get their experience regardless of what others might choose to do.

What they should never do is turn world first into an official competition. There is no need to turn it into an official competition. The existence of the Ultimate is enough to get players to come to the game to see if they can beat it as opposed to trying to prove they're better than other players by beating it first. Turn it into a competition and many will feel like if they're not doing it when that competitive window is open then there's no point in doing it at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Then almost all raid teams deserve to lose. Is it really an unfair advantage when pretty much everyone is doing it?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VelKallor

"If all your friends jumped of a cliff, would you jump too?"

---

...Really?

A far more apt comparison is, "If nearly every later PuG raider has studied video guides before attempting the content (and therefore almost anyone could reasonably expect that you, one among that many, have done likewise), are you obliged to do the same?"

Going in blind or without any addons noting phase-change timers, etc., are the more appropriate analog for the "cliff" one might jump off.

The question simply lies in what designs would, for the average person, warrant a less intuitive or direct experience (via addons) over whatever costs come from not doing so. Weekly lockouts having no roll-over leniency, unintuitive mechanics, difficulty spikes, and the like all add motive to making things easier for oneself and thereby one's party. And as stigma against third-party tools conflates the likes of a parser or QoL mod with those that supply auto-markers and auto-callouts, there's all the less cost to passing that threshold (since just fixing graphical flickering or playing the game in Spanish already put you over that threshold).

The higher the motive and lower the relative cost to using such mods, the more prevalent they become, which in turn increases the motive and lowers the apparent cost all the more.

Quote:

---

Going in blind or without any addons noting phase-change timers, etc., are the more appropriate analog for the "cliff" one might jump off.

---

On this, we agree.

My POV is simple. You can cheat to win, sure. Its a victory, hollow as it may be. Its what you do when you lose that is the true test of character.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Then almost all raid teams deserve to lose. Is it really an unfair advantage when pretty much everyone is doing it?

---

Don't think I've ever heard more disheartening thing when it comes to this argument around "cheating". For me it always has one effect. Discourages me from ever touching said aspect of the game. If everyone is expected to bend the rules to make things easier for them then why bother trying it in the first place? Had same effect for me in Pokemon where online community is so acceptive to simply creating your team via outside tool and "hacking" it into one's game that it became the standard. Arguments are even the same pointing out it still requires player input to pilot the team and since everyone does it it's not "unfair advantage" at all. By the end of it those that want to play fair using only tools provided by the game are ostracized and seen as weirdos.

Is it much different with how we see the 3rd party tools used specifically for raiding (automated callouts calling out mechanics in advance and telling the player where to move to resolve them)? There's no point in learning by doing if you can have cactbot guide you in real time. It goes further than just watching and memorizing the guide as you don't have to commit the knowledge to memory. Just execute commands you're given. And because it's a team game we enforce that by essentially guilt tripping those that disagree saying that they owe their team a smooth run. That it's selfish abd disrespectful to not use cactbot or other tool working similarly.

It also has another aspect. It paints endgame content in a distorted light. Making the seem inbalanced, poorly designed. Claiming that the usage of add-ons is necessity to tackle the encounter because it's unbeatable otherwise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

They could always just not care about the world first races... Just drop in the content like any other patch, put the servers up whenever they're ready instead of artificially lengthening the maintenance for the sake of a small minority of players.

And with less of a race, there's less incentive to cheat.

---

The "race" is entirely created by the players and community, NOT XIV/SE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Very few third-party tools even make fights easier to begin with, and the handful that do still can't play the game for you. There's no reason for anyone to get bent out of shape over it. Point blank; most raiders in the game do utilize third-party tools, whether they want to admit it or not. That is the norm - yes, even for JP raid teams. Nothing about this is new or fascinating. It's only an issue because someone was dumb enough to out themselves, thereby painting a nice big target on their whole team's back.

Tl;dr: Yoshi-P either overreacted or over-acted, depending on one's perspective. There is zero chance he isn't already aware of the amount of third-party tool usage going on. There is also little to no chance of them discontinuing Ultimates over this, although the resources that go into said Ultimates could be put to better use elsewhere anyway.

---

ALL addons are against ToS. ALL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VelKallor

On this, we agree.

My POV is simple. You can cheat to win, sure. Its a victory, hollow as it may be. Its what you do when you lose that is the true test of character.

---

I really like this one. Very true. I get that when I play a difficult game or when I can't find something and then I look at my phone only to remind myself that it would just cheapen the win so I put it down again. lol

I guess that's the reason why I still haven't finished Elden Ring after 400 hours. haha Mainly because I enjoy the lore. I'm like 50 pages worth of notes deep. Needless to say I do all PF stuff blind. A good struggle is hard to beat.

It kinda feels like pointless development time and creativity if people are just going to cheat through them, and that counts for savage too. If you’re actually at a disadvantage by not cheating, what’s the point in doing the content?

I’d prefer them to try and find ways to technically stop it, but not sure they can or will?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thoosa

It kinda feels like pointless development time and creativity if people are just going to cheat through them, and that counts for savage too. If you’re actually at a disadvantage by not cheating, what’s the point in doing the content?

I’d prefer them to try and find ways to technically stop it, but not sure they can or will?

---

Well the game is made with no cheating in mind, so the problem is rather that people get an advantage with add ons. For the majority it doesn't matter, but for such a popular event (even more so by the standard twitch viewers count the game gets) that the WF race is, with how competitive it is, it makes a lot of noise and bad rep for SE (going by their rules).

Just to give an example. If I’m trying to prog savage in PF and mess up a mechanic, but the rest of the group clear it because they are using mods to show them safe spaces etc, and they kick me because of it, that’s unfair and I’m at a disadvantage for playing the game as intended.

Ok, so I can say I learned the fight and cleared it without cheating, but if most or all in my party are using cheat mods, it sucks.

It’s a waste of time when only a few people clear it and becomes dead content. At least make them solo friendly buy giving the player some buff after some expansions come out. Having content that only a limited amount player can try is just bad design.

For the people who use mods to cheese the fight, just shows you that players don’t care and just want the reward. At least make the content fun and not hard. Something that people will want to come back and do many times out of fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalafellDown

It’s a waste of time when only a few people clear it and becomes dead content.

---

No Ultimate is dead content. I see PFs for each of them every single day on Light Datacenter. It's not unusual to find more PFs for Ultimates than the entire savage tier + the current EX combined.

Quote:

---

Something that people will want to come back and do many times out of fun.

---

This is literally what Ultimates are. PF are filled with bored helpers who reprog the entire fight for fun. For them and for many of the high-end community, this is the only content in the game which never gets stale.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalafellDown

It’s a waste of time when only a few people clear it and becomes dead content. At least make them solo friendly buy giving the player some buff after some expansions come out. Having content that only a limited amount player can try is just bad design.

For the people who use mods to cheese the fight, just shows you that players don’t care and just want the reward. At least make the content fun and not hard. Something that people will want to come back and do many times out of fun.

---

Even SB ultimates get done regularly and they're many years old. You have an entire discord dedicated to finding parties if you can't/ don't want to commit to a static.
Every player can try it if they want to, there is no limitation to who can try it.
All it showed was that world first racers wanted an edge in that race. We're talking about one group of players here, not the entire playerbase that does ultimate.
You have plenty of content that is fun and not hard and that you can do as many times as you want out of fun. You have dungeons, normal raids, alli raids, story trials, treasure maps old and new, Deep Dungeon.

Leave Ultimate for people who like hard content because they find it fun and don't pretend that nobody likes hard content because one group cheated during the world first race.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thoosa

Just to give an example. If I’m trying to prog savage in PF and mess up a mechanic, but the rest of the group clear it because they are using mods to show them safe spaces etc, and they kick me because of it, that’s unfair and I’m at a disadvantage for playing the game as intended.

Ok, so I can say I learned the fight and cleared it without cheating, but if most or all in my party are using cheat mods, it sucks.

---

Except most parties aren't using programs like what is getting thrown around. The one showing AoE indicators has existed for a good while now yet PF is still breathing safe. Just because a handful of world groups opted to use it doesn't mean the majority of players are. That's just doomsaying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalafellDown

It’s a waste of time when only a few people clear it and becomes dead content. At least make them solo friendly buy giving the player some buff after some expansions come out. Having content that only a limited amount player can try is just bad design.

For the people who use mods to cheese the fight, just shows you that players don’t care and just want the reward. At least make the content fun and not hard. Something that people will want to come back and do many times out of fun.

---

Everything gets easier over time. All of the Stormblood savages save O12 door boss can be solo'd nowadays. You just have to wait until you're a high enough level above them.

Ultimate can't and should never be solo-able as that defeats the entire purpose of its existence. Nonetheless, UCoB and UwU have been power crept to death and back, making them very approachable for players looking for a challenge but not one quite on the level of Dragonsong or Omega Protocol. These fights are fun to the people who enjoy that. Not everything needs to be available to everyone. If you want to tackle Ultimate then either learn how to improve so you're capable of the challenge or leave them be as they simply aren't your interest. It's okay not to clear everything in the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazhar

No Ultimate is dead content. I see PFs for each of them every single day on Light Datacenter.



This is literally what Ultimates are. PF are filled with bored helpers who reprog the entire fight for fun.

---

the fact that ultimates are synched give them some of the longest lasting replayability in the game. Once people finished clearing edens promise in shadowbringers and entered the long wait for 6.0, the ultimate community boomed. I expect the same thing to happen waiting for 7.0

I will try to be like you guys and keep a positive attitude despite the sour messaging.

Really tho gamers stop modding. Lest we lose our nice things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thoosa

Just to give an example. If I’m trying to prog savage in PF and mess up a mechanic, but the rest of the group clear it because they are using mods to show them safe spaces etc, and they kick me because of it, that’s unfair and I’m at a disadvantage for playing the game as intended.

---

Correction: you should have said just "to give a hypothetical example". The only people that you can convince with your example is yourself, or people don't play the game at all and read your post from an outsider perspective. Most people who does play the game in PF know the situation you present while can "technically" happen, "realistically" actually does not happen.

This is especially true since a couple years back when SE update the TOS with the carebear policy that pretty much explicitly prohibit people from making other players feel bad, regardless of the reason. The reality is most PF will simply disband when its member feel the skill of the party is not up to task because not many will want to risk getting reported for calling poor performer.

So no, people like you are protected, very well I might add by the developers. Yoshi had even said he wants the savage scene to embrace the carebear attitude in that people should be willing to carry others.

I wasn’t trying to convince anyone.

What do you mean “people like you”?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thoosa

What do you mean “people like you”?

---

The very person you use as your example?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thoosa

If I’m trying to prog savage in PF and mess up a mechanic, but the rest of the group clear it because they are using mods to show them safe spaces etc, and they kick me because of it, that’s unfair and I’m at a disadvantage for playing the game as intended.

---

^ that person.

Yeah and I’m not sure where you get the idea from that comment that every PF contains 7 other players using cheating addons, but no doubt in *some* parties people do….

Also, I have raided in PF since O1S, thanks.