Variant & Criterion Dungeons

I just realized after I saw Sil'dihn Throne is tradable, that Criterion Dungeon is just Unreal but without weekly restriction :eek:

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Originally Posted by Winterfang

This is the kicker for me. The content I look forward to the most was told to Take 5 this expansion and this is what they made in it's stead. Rather disappointing by comparison and the bad rewards, 2 mounts I personally don't care for and an outfit that doesn't look good on me, aren't exactly stimulating for me. Hoping something improves for the future V&C Dungeons as the game now lacks larger scale content that I like outside of one weekly Alliance Raid run

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We really didn't need another exploration zone. For starters, it would make Bojza irrelevant. A lot of us may be over and done with it, but plenty of people still go there. It still serves a purpose. This is something new and I believe they're still adding another before 7.0. We need some different types of content once in a while. Bozja was a nice improvement over Eureka, but even that still has room for improvement.

Larger scale content has too many issues that need to be addressed, including what happens as people start to trickle out. Chasing FATEs got to be a drag when people were able to melt the bosses. CEs were actually fun, but it didn't take too many people to mess things up on some fights. The elemental snake fight was one of the biggest shitshows with those donuts being moved around. Castrum and Dal (mostly castrum) also had a lot of people problems. I'm thrilled that we're not going through another exploration right away. They need to take the time to think of a better way to do exploration.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

We really didn't need another exploration zone. For starters, it would make Bojza irrelevant. A lot of us may be over and done with it, but plenty of people still go there. It still serves a purpose. This is something new and I believe they're still adding another before 7.0. We need some different types of content once in a while. Bozja was a nice improvement over Eureka, but even that still has room for improvement.

Larger scale content has too many issues that need to be addressed, including what happens as people start to trickle out. Chasing FATEs got to be a drag when people were able to melt the bosses. CEs were actually fun, but it didn't take too many people to mess things up on some fights. The elemental snake fight was one of the biggest shitshows with those donuts being moved around. Castrum and Dal (mostly castrum) also had a lot of people problems. I'm thrilled that we're not going through another exploration right away. They need to take the time to think of a better way to do exploration.

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For me, the explorations suffer from the same reason Alliance Raids can feel like a coinflip. In some fights, and in the case of LotA some trash pulls, can go south because one group failed to do their job. I'm guessing JP has better coordination overall, and that's why it works? But with stuff like "B and C didn't get to the pad and got teleported to A", "C didn't chain on time so Cerberus is going ham", "Someone failed the pads at Thunder God" and "Someone aimed the Puppet's Bunker lasers at another team and they wiped", I wonder why they continuously make these sorts of content. Sure, a bit of elbow grease called "coordination" and setting up a standard when people run content is fine. But on Puppet's Bunker, at least, all it takes is one guy (three if you ignore the healers that can Rescue).

For the rest, especially the Elemental Snake, Belias or Red Chocobo, it's got more to do with how the fights are designed. Because not everyone can quickly know which way to go, and if it's too strict, it leads to easy wipes that snowball under duress.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Bozja was a nice improvement over Eureka, but even that still has room for improvement.

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Oh I'm definitely not going to disagree with you there. I love content like this, but even the most recent Bozja content was riddled with issues, from internal decisions and external circumstances beyond their control.
On the rest of your post, that's fair enough. Trying really hard to remember if they mentioned why no large scale content for EW in a previous LL or Q&A, but if that is the circumstances with their stance on large scale content at the moment then I can't fault them for that.
I do worry whether this is just taking a break to learn from mistakes or they're not going to do them going forward anymore.

Now that being said, that still doesn't really change my stance that what did replace it with isn't good so far and the lackluster rewards are just a cherry on top of a spilled sundae so here's hoping it's improved for the next dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

"C didn't chain on time so Cerberus is going ham"

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There is absolutely no reason why this needs to be Alliance C's job – all it takes is two individuals who know what to do. Always check if someone is doing the chains, and if nobody else has taken it yet, do it yourself.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

There is absolutely no reason why this needs to be Alliance C's job – all it takes is two individuals who know what to do. Always check if someone is doing the chains, and if nobody else has taken it yet, do it yourself.

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Good point! I do know that, of course. I only mean C because that's what people usually say: Adds, Belly, Chains. But anyone of any team can do any of these.
The issue might even be because people are expecting people from Team C to do it when they could have just done it on their own. But the point remains: why have something like this where all it takes is one guy carry the tether and not use it, everyone wipes? Alternatively, I'll also point out that a common strategy is to wait to allow DPS to kill Cerberus without disruptions, but they can mistime it. Because at least there is an effort there xD

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Originally Posted by Winterfang

This is the kicker for me. The content I look forward to the most was told to Take 5 this expansion and this is what they made in it's stead. Rather disappointing by comparison and the bad rewards, 2 mounts I personally don't care for and an outfit that doesn't look good on me, aren't exactly stimulating for me. Hoping something improves for the future V&C Dungeons as the game now lacks larger scale content that I like outside of one weekly Alliance Raid run

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Yep, major shame on SE.. not only can we not wear the hat, but the suit looks awful on Hrothgar

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

I just realized after I saw Sil'dihn Throne is tradable, that Criterion Dungeon is just Unreal but without weekly restriction :eek:

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It is? Damn, I wouldn't have guessed. Everything is usually locked behind content lately (like the island). It's almost disappointing to be honest. At least it gives a reason to farm it, now people with tons of gils will just buy it from the marketboard.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Variant rewards tomestones. I received both Causality and Astronomy for the clear, and additional Astronomy for the first time bonus.

I find it difficult to believe that Criterion doesn't likewise reward at least the same amount if not more.

There's your gear rewards. It's not instant gratification but you will get something eventually. It remains to be seen if SE will upgrade the tomestones when the new one comes out in 6.4 but at the very least we should still be getting Causality at that point.

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Criterion takes 20+ minutes for a full run of content at or above the current Savage tier while offering a paltry 30 Causality. Meanwhile, three hunts which die in all of five seconds a piece give the exact same amount: 30.

That's a pretty terrible "gear reward" relative to the time investment.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

There is absolutely no reason why this needs to be Alliance C's job – all it takes is two individuals who know what to do. Always check if someone is doing the chains, and if nobody else has taken it yet, do it yourself.

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It's an EU thing, evidently. I'd never seen or heard of the practice until moving one of my alts to Louisoix. Suffice it to say I was a bit surprised by it. It just seems completely unnecessary.

Regarding the Variant Dungeons, I love the variance in each branch and thing you do. Bosses and paths are very well designed, and some paths hint at what to do in others, until you uncover the secrets in the underground.

Have tried Criterion just once, and it seems that they address my only concern with Variant Dungeons - the easy difficulty. Criterion is more like an extreme. Liking it.

Criterion was super fun. No clear, but definitely a blast so far.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Good point! I do know that, of course. I only mean C because that's what people usually say: Adds, Belly, Chains.

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nice acronym, doesn't work in japan. Since B is usually the relegated main tank team xD

i'm not disappointed because i expected nothing from it, i'm just very underwhelmed.
It's just a dungeon with multiple path, only 2 boss per run with way too much HP and you have to farm it a million time for all the rewards...
Next.

Variant dungeon is good idea.
But the reward for criterion normal and savage is really horrible. It does not proportional to the effort we put in.
I do not see the reason why should I do savage mode at all.
SE plz hire some one to ensure the reward is reasonable on every high end content plz.

Cool idea but too short, not enough rewards to make doing it worthwhile. Geryon gets repetitive but the Thorne Knight is really cool. I got my nightmare rat last night. Materia, a banner and a practically invisible earring for savage rewards is a real slap in the face for those looking forward to that content however. Mmos are meant to give players reasons to play but it seems the devs use "hehe we dont want to overwhelm you" as a reason to slice a patch up into 8 thin slices and drip feed the content. But when the average player is busy drooling in duty finder and idling in limsa I guess they wouldnt see a problem with that

I'm confused as to why they opted to make some of the criterion rewards like the chair mount sellable on the MB.

You need a carrot on a stick if you want to convince people to run hard content, so giving them an option to bypass it entirely is just going to contribute to a lack of interest in the long term.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm confused as to why they opted to make some of the criterion rewards like the chair mount sellable on the MB.

You need a carrot on a stick if you want to convince people to run hard content, so giving them an option to bypass it entirely is just going to contribute to a lack of interest in the long term.

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Same with the (ugly) costume. Actually anything besides the rat mount can be sold on the marketboard and super cheap. The throne maybe not due to the difficulty, so I expect that to be expensive at least, kind of like that weird green bird with antlers, I forgot the name xD

Someone in FC mentioned a dyeable unrestricted version of the Flame GC gear sets for rewards and would agree, even just for glam a lot of those pieces would be insanely popular...

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm confused as to why they opted to make some of the criterion rewards like the chair mount sellable on the MB.

You need a carrot on a stick if you want to convince people to run hard content, so giving them an option to bypass it entirely is just going to contribute to a lack of interest in the long term.

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I don't think that's necessarily the case. If it's an RNG drop then it's going to require the same number of runs for X number of chairs to be available to players, regardless of how many players are doing the runs, so it might as well be done by people who enjoy the content. If anything it might boost the number of people willing to do repeat runs so latecomers can still find a party.

Personally, once I've done a hard videogame thing once, that's it. I passed and I don't have to touch it again.

The new Variant and Criterion seemed like great fun, until realizing how poor or lack of rewards there were. Once you've got your hamster mount, and you get lucky with Sabotender Umbrella & Sponge Silkie minion from random chest (or buy them from marketplace), you're pretty much done. The glam noir set isn't my cup of tea, so there's pretty much no reason to return. Not to mention that the extreme and savage versions having only a stupid chair mount, which can be bought on the market place as well.

In comparison, at least Palace of the Dead and Heaven on High, have means to get weapon glams, and when you clear them, in groups too, you get a token which can be exchanged for glowing earrings, necklaces, bracelets, and rings, along with their respective interaction trophy model, when you reached the final floor, for completion. Pumpkin Glass & Firecrest glam is still one of my most favorite accessory glams ever(except bracelets, needs more pumkins).
And yet the one earring you can get from the new Variant/Criterion is a complete joke, no interesting design, nor even a glow/light source to make it pop even a little bit.

If they don't want to add progression gear in these new content variety, at least add plenty of interesting novelty gear/glams to aim for.
All this "one and done" content, is starting to become a rather underwhelming and disappointing theme, for this Expansion. :/

I have done one run of the Variant dungeon(s) right now and I liked what I saw there. I look forward to solving the puzzles by myself and only will get a guide if I am truly lost.

The rewards for the harder versions could have been a bit more, but I do like them for the normal one. I dont think this content is meant to be run as long and as much as a deep dungeon is (after all we will get that one later in this expansion too) and for that its imo fine. I hope we will get more of those in the future. I love the lore bits we get.

Even if I am done with this, I still have other stuff to do. Getting my currency for the first step of the relic weapons, tending to my island, doing the daily omicron quests and doing old ARR relics. (Right now I am doing all book steps for all jobs and its slow) And sometimes I will run Palace of the death and some treasure dungeons too. So all in all I am happy with the amount of things to do.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm confused as to why they opted to make some of the criterion rewards like the chair mount sellable on the MB.

You need a carrot on a stick if you want to convince people to run hard content, so giving them an option to bypass it entirely is just going to contribute to a lack of interest in the long term.

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Maybe they thought that people running it would be able to get some nice Gil for selling them (thus making them run it more often since they could sell them again and again) while not forcing those of us, who are simply not good enough into this content. At least with the extremes and other fights you are able to unsynch them many years later, not sure if that is possible here.

Ngl think this content wouldve been better suited for a 6.3x patch. Give folks a bit more time to gear up cause the ramp up to Criterion from Variant is fairly wide, they couldve slapped tome upgrade mats for rewards even if as weekly, and it couldve given second wind to raids which its already fairly dead especially with no ult this tier...

What an absolute massive disappointment Criterion is. They had such a big opportunity to create something amazing, so instead of making another Eureka/Bozja, they created another ol' dungeon with a handful of harder mechanics and a rez modifier... while simultaneously giving it some of the worst loot. God forbid we have alternative gearing routes.

For Criterion, they could have taken the variant dungeon, have only one path open each week, created a handful of new bosses for each path, and added additional instance modifiers that change the flow of battles. Criterion Savage could have the same (with no rez), but the paths could be random each time you enter the instance. Loot could have been twine/shine once a week. This would have given longevity to the new content.

Nah, here's more half-arsed content that'll die off within a few weeks. FFXIV and disappointing end game content; name a more iconic duo.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

FFXIV and disappointing end game content; name a more iconic duo.

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ya'll and your garbage takes :D

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

What an absolute massive disappointment Criterion is. They had such a big opportunity to create something amazing, so instead of making another Eureka/Bozja, they created another ol' dungeon with a handful of harder mechanics and a rez modifier... while simultaneously giving it some of the worst loot. God forbid we have alternative gearing routes.

For Criterion, they could have taken the variant dungeon, have only one path open each week, created a handful of new bosses for each path, and added additional instance modifiers that change the flow of battles. Criterion Savage could have the same (with no rez), but the paths could be random each time you enter the instance. Loot could have been twine/shine once a week. This would have given longevity to the new content.

Nah, here's more half-arsed content that'll die off within a few weeks. FFXIV and disappointing end game content; name a more iconic duo.

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Bozja/Eureka are literally just fate farming where everything dies in .5 seconds. I don't get why people love them so much. That content is boring as hell.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Bozja/Eureka are literally just fate farming where everything dies in .5 seconds. I don't get why people love them so much. That content is boring as hell.

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I don't disagree. But I still enjoyed them due to the fact that they were "open world" content with a handful of players occupying the same location, which made it feel like I was in a MMO again. It's why I preferred Eureka over Bozja, because Eureka felt like it had more of a community within it. Though Bozja had better fights through the boss fate system, and it was fun watching people get annihilated by the red chocobo or behemoth. They also had gear that you could use for alts.

Even with Eureka/Bozja being boring as hell, it still held my attention longer than the variant dungeon did (more than an hour). Criterion is a one and done for me unless something drastic changes soon.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

ya'll and your garbage takes :D

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Includes yours.

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Originally Posted by Moebious

The new Variant and Criterion seemed like great fun, until realizing how poor or lack of rewards there were. Once you've got your hamster mount, and you get lucky with Sabotender Umbrella & Sponge Silkie minion from random chest (or buy them from marketplace), you're pretty much done. The glam noir set isn't my cup of tea, so there's pretty much no reason to return. Not to mention that the extreme and savage versions having only a stupid chair mount, which can be bought on the market place as well.

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To correct you, Savage has a pair of Earrings exclusive to it that requires the manuscript item drop that comes from clearing it and -cannot- be put up on the marketboard, along with a housing item that I -think- cannot be MB'd either. It also has a title, to be technical.

Not saying the rewards are lackluster however, just that there are some exclusive things beyond 'just the chair'.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Bozja/Eureka are literally just fate farming where everything dies in .5 seconds. I don't get why people love them so much. That content is boring as hell.

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Yeah, stuff dies way too quick in there. And I honestly can't tell if the problem is the scaling the Fates have or if it's the Lost Actions. And I'm willing to bet it isn't just a combination of both.

That said? Open world content, people trying to work together (at least on launch) to spawn stuff, interesting fights with the CE system they had going on, minigames like the Duels or farming for clusters...

I do wish that it had a bit more to it than "just glorified Fates", but I said the exact same about Eureka at the time, so at least Bozja's a slight improvement over that. Still needs a bit more to it. Eureka added the bunny fates, but it honestly could have just reworked the treasure map system to fit Eureka, it'd at least make it a group interaction thing. They otherwise had a good idea for the sort of areas they wanted, I just feel they could do with a bit "more".

Just like every other content they've been implemented. "It's a nice idea, but it needs 'more'". And then they drop it, and I am sad.

All they had to do for these new dungeons was create a unique gearing system for them like Eureka. The most disappointing thing is that you can’t even mess around with different jobs. You’re pigeon holed to the job that you acquired savage gear with.

I had a few friends sign up just to mess around in harder 4man content and it’s not even doable without weeks of raid and/or tomestone gear. Why is that a requirement for a dungeon with no reward? A unique gear system inside the dungeon would solve this and let people explore different jobs as well.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Yeah, stuff dies way too quick in there. And I honestly can't tell if the problem is the scaling the Fates have or if it's the Lost Actions. And I'm willing to bet it isn't just a combination of both.

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It's the lost actions. I poked my head in yesterday and there were no more than 10 people in the zone. People came and went. Someone entered the party and suddenly bosses were melting. If it's not lost assassination, it's something else. I never got into that, as I was never getting that deep into the jobs that can do that.

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Originally Posted by Libby9

All they had to do for these new dungeons was create a unique gearing system for them like Eureka. The most disappointing thing is that you can’t even mess around with different jobs. You’re pigeon holed to the job that you acquired savage gear with.

I had a few friends sign up just to mess around in harder 4man content and it’s not even doable without weeks of raid and/or tomestone gear. Why is that a requirement for a dungeon with no reward? A unique gear system inside the dungeon would solve this and let people explore different jobs as well.

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We don't need more gear and I'm sure the team was happy not to have to make more niche gear. We already have our standard sets. This is basically side content, so the rewards aren't going to offer an alternate path to something like savage tier gear.

Entry for criterion is 610. That's crafted gear. All you need is experience with mechanics and processing them.

I did my first run solo. It was fun, good bosses, nice story line... im happy with it.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

To correct you, Savage has a pair of Earrings exclusive to it that requires the manuscript item drop that comes from clearing it and -cannot- be put up on the marketboard, along with a housing item that I -think- cannot be MB'd either. It also has a title, to be technical.

Not saying the rewards are lackluster however, just that there are some exclusive things beyond 'just the chair'.

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I literally spoke of the chair mount being sellable, not the earrings. Even the quote of me you have there, has me only mentioning the chair mount, which is sellable on market board, and otherwise the sabotender umbrella and Sponge Silkie minion likewise.

I only mention the earrings in a different paragraph later on, in regards to its bland design in comparison to other accessory rewards from HoH and PotD, not once did I write them being sellable.

You literally taped two different paragraphs together.

I think they need more rewards, be it glams or minions but I feel like the rewards have relatively limited appeal and there aren't really very many. I wouldn't add a gearing system to this at all, but more cosmetics and maybe better titles would make it more worth-while for longer-term play.

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Originally Posted by Winterfang

This is the kicker for me. The content I look forward to the most was told to Take 5 this expansion and this is what they made in it's stead. Rather disappointing by comparison and the bad rewards, 2 mounts I personally don't care for and an outfit that doesn't look good on me, aren't exactly stimulating for me. Hoping something improves for the future V&C Dungeons as the game now lacks larger scale content that I like outside of one weekly Alliance Raid run

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I loved Eureka and while I didn't enjoy Bozja as much, I still liked it. (I liked both enough to get Ozma+the Bozja bike) But I'm not at all shocked this style of content didn't return. People complained about Eureka non stop when it was new and they hated it so much that they made it to where the bulk of your relic grind could be done outside Bozja when that came out. And people still complained about Bozja, so I'm not expecting them to do Eureka/Bozja style content again.

I would like to see them expand upon Variant/Criterion dungeons in the future. Maybe gradually add more wings to do or something because I already did all the normal paths and I'm getting through harder versions fairly quickly with my group. The biggest problem with losing Eureka/Bozja is there isn't any sort of a grind to focus on at the moment.

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

biggest problem with losing Eureka/Bozja is there isn't any sort of a grind to focus on at the moment.

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While we got Gangos on 5.25 the Bozja Southern Front only came during the 5.35 together with the glowing Resistance Weapons

This is not something new, since hw relic has been going past and past behind patches

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Yeah, stuff dies way too quick in there. And I honestly can't tell if the problem is the scaling the Fates have or if it's the Lost Actions. And I'm willing to bet it isn't just a combination of both.

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That, and some FATEs has poorly scaled, squishy health pools for some reason.

FATEs scaling depends on number of players in vicinity when it was cleared last time. If the FATE was cleared with very few people, the next time it spawns everything will have far less health pool. This value obviously fluctuates rather frequently depending on how players interacts in each zones. But a player with decent valor rays & proper LA+Essence? They can decimate FATEs real fast regardless. Been there before myself, annihilating FATEs with stupidly powered Profane WHM paired with Seraph & Font. Or as a Caster with their Flare Stars. or Profane AST paired with Font+Banish/Burst+Carding self.

I am a bit disappointed that you can't use Criterion Dungeons to gear up. Of course, a whole new set of gear would be too much to ask, however, tomestone upgrade materials and perhaps another earring so people that don't do savage for one reason or another can gear up to max ilevel without waiting for the catch up patch would have been nice.

That being said, I enjoy this kind of content. Variant dungeons solo do make you feel like a proper adventurer, and finding the solutions to the different puzzles is a lot of fun. I do hope SqEx expands on this kind of content.

Impressions from the Variant (haven't tackled Criterion yet):

Pros:
Love the variable paths, and how little things can affect the fights that follow. It actually feels like a real dungeon.
Variant Actions help make it very solo-able. I've experimented with a bunch of jobs but settled on SMN with Variant Rampart and Variant Cure as my go-to - the bosses are about the same on most of the jobs I've done, but the trash melts under SMN's AOE onslaught. Also love how VRam and VSpirit Dart are OGCD abilities so you can weave them in whenever you have space. I get why the Cure wasn't OGCD, but it does throw off rotations a bit when you need to apply it.
Mechanics tended to be very well telegraphed, in a good way - they are easy enough to understand but still require thought and care to address.
LOVE the deep lore exploration. I knew about some of the things revealed in here from the Encyclopedia but the game never addressed them or left them not-fully-explored. It was great to see things like the old alliance between certain powers (won't spoil for those who haven't done the right routes) and the Sil'dih war come into focus.

Cons:
Biggest gripe is that changing jobs isn't really a thing you can do. You CAN switch, but then you're on cooldown with different abilities taking different time to get ready. While I would have liked anytime swapping, I get why that WOULDN'T work, but if you're going to allow it between pulls, make it so that we're ready to go.
Could do more with the trash, I feel. Make them a bit more meaningful.
I'm a bit disappointed there isn't a way to spend the SAVAGE resources on upgrade mats. I wouldn't expect that from the Variant or even Criterion, but Savage deserves it IMO.
While I enjoyed the Variant Actions, I also felt like they were TOO limited. Even if they don't want to make full on Lost Action holsters' worth of options, they could have made visual presentation variable for each player based on the jobs they have. So, instead of Variant Rampart, you could get the animation of Variant Darkest Night if you have DRK at 90, or even Variant Magicked Barrier. Keep the same mechanical effects, but let me choose to rep my other jobs visually at least.

Hopes/suggestions going forward:
Kind of hoping for some super rewards later down the line that allow you to spend the currencies from multiple Variant dungeons.
Also kind of expect/hope this will be relevant for the relic weapons.

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Originally Posted by Libby9

I had a few friends sign up just to mess around in harder 4man content and it’s not even doable without weeks of raid and/or tomestone gear. Why is that a requirement for a dungeon with no reward? A unique gear system inside the dungeon would solve this and let people explore different jobs as well.

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Because it's EX/Savage difficulty, that's why raid gear is important. They outright mentioned before it even came out that it was going to be that difficult.