RIP SAM - no reverts planned for 6.2

SAM currently has the fastest growth rate in terms of player numbers in Savage, and will likely be the most represented melee dps next tier. It has about double the representation that MNK does. A lot of this comes down to the fact that SAM has a simple, selfish rotation with no real resource management or required pooling, while still benefiting from disproportionate buffs it received at the start of the expansion.

SAM is currently in a situation nearly identical to the one WAR was in back during 4.2. I think if you want to get people playing the less popular jobs, you need to start looking at ways that they can provide an equivalent reward for effort. Otherwise you will continue to siphon players away into SAM for low effort high reward dps output.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

SAM currently has the fastest growth rate in terms of player numbers in Savage... (etc)

---

Sad. I can't wait for the devs to hold this up like "WOW, LOOK AT HOW GOOD THEY'RE DOING IN SAVAGE. IT'S ALL FINE GUYS. PEOPLE LIKE IT!" like they basically did with DRK.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

SAM currently has the fastest growth rate in terms of player numbers in Savage, and will likely be the most represented melee dps next tier. It has about double the representation that MNK does. A lot of this comes down to the fact that SAM has a simple, selfish rotation with no real resource management or required pooling, while still benefiting from disproportionate buffs it received at the start of the expansion.

SAM is currently in a situation nearly identical to the one WAR was in back during 4.2. I think if you want to get people playing the less popular jobs, you need to start looking at ways that they can provide an equivalent reward for effort. Otherwise you will continue to siphon players away into SAM for low effort high reward dps output.

---

Yes i also like to make up something in my head and state it as a fact.

Just to correct you on 4.2 WAR, WAR and comps overall were broken, like WAR has slashing debuff and SAM has slashing debuff but SAM is subpar melee guess who takes a spot in raid while you take something like DRG to boost phys range?

WAR had access to Slashing even in ARR and the job was even more mandatory in Heavensward than it was in Stormblood. The difference with patch 4.2 was that it removed resource management from the job (and any semblance of skill, really), yet it let them retain their power imbalance. Suddenly you get an influx of players who don’t actually care about the job, but will play it because it’s trivially easy to play yet disproportionally powerful for the effort you put in. It’s bad for the job in the long run, but players ignore this out of short term greed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

WAR had access to Slashing even in ARR and the job was even more mandatory in Heavensward than it was in Stormblood. The difference with patch 4.2 was that it removed resource management from the job (and any semblance of skill, really), yet it let them retain their power imbalance. Suddenly you get an influx of players who don’t actually care about the job, but will play it because it’s trivially easy to play yet disproportionally powerful for the effort you put in. It’s bad for the job in the long run, but players ignore this out of short term greed.

---

Reaper still more braindead to play than sam you know. Stop pretending you know something other than making up stuff based on just p1s fflogs data over 2 weeks of dead savage

Sure, if you play it freestyle. Remind me, what’s the entrance timer supposed to be on Death’s Design when starting Double Enshroud? And when is Triple Enshroud used? When do you go for an opener potion vs. a two minute potion?

'Reaper main gets offended that he doesnt have positionals and makes up stuff so he proceeds to use words he only saw in balance discord and never used in action'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stasya

...

---

This is pretty basic stuff, to be honest, if you want to have any sort of a discussion on Reaper's design. But this is really a side tangent.

Either way, it seems like you are incapable of responding without resorting to personal attacks, so best of luck to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KurenXIV

Welp, that's the end of that:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/467713



The context here is super important, it means they don't give a shit how we feel. This is the "you think you want it but you don't" moment for XIV.

Consider my sub cancelled. What a god damn shame.

---

I think it's perfect, I don't know what you're complaining about and have a nice funeral.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

snip

---

Always the same people with the common traits of idiocy... another Reaper main right? Obviously you based this off of FFLogs so here's the source " " The FFlogs " " that even Square uses for statistics...


https://i.ibb.co/3SVFzM7/Parse-activity.png

The Nr1 Representing Melee based off FFlogs in logging activity is " Reaper". You're slightly beaten in 6.1 currently by Dancer activity as 2nd in DPS.


You can use " FFxivcensus " " as your source and then the results shifts to Samurai. I mean pick your poison.

So even if SAM is factually the Nr1 Representing Melee? it doesn't justify the recent 6.1 Patch as better or good Job design choices. Logically, making Jobs easier + High-Performing? makes players flock to it increasing it's activity. Look at SMN as example.

We do have different pot openers and rotations aside from the " Selfish-Rotation " of pressing every Cooldown whenever available and ignoring raid-buff alignment... but players will do what's needed to clear... and Raid-buff alignment while it maximizes DPS output? plenty of players will ignore this cause it's not required to master this to clear. If you're salty that a Samurai isn't feeding your Arcane Circle? maybe discuss that.

Lastly, just cause it performs? does not equal it being more satisfying

They robbed how satisfying Samurai is to play for many beyond just Kaiten removal. This includes Auto-Crits and complete nerf and change to Tenka Goken. Being Nr1 Melee representative or not has nothing to do with satisfying gameplay being removed from the game, like gauge managing for executing damage output.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naoki34

I think it's perfect, I don't know what you're complaining about and have a nice funeral.

---

That's a great opinion, but incase you missed the memo? " " SAM compiled thread, Click Here " "

You can advocate for whatever you want, but it's always going to be a balancing act. If the reward : effort ratio on your job becomes too high, it becomes saturated with players and it's just awful for everyone who plays it. If you're good at what you do, other players will still respect you for playing an objectively weaker job at a higher skill level, and there's nothing more satisfying than outperforming someone else on a job that you theoretically shouldn't be able to. That's why it's actually to your advantage to play something with barriers to entry that's also slightly underpowered, so long as you're in striking range of the top. I'm just pointing out that SAM is falling into the exact same trap that WAR did, and history has a way of repeating itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

You can advocate for whatever you want, but it's always going to be a balancing act. If the reward : effort ratio on your job becomes too high, it becomes saturated with players and it's just awful for everyone who plays it.

---

Dodging my factual statistics argument aside, now it goes into " Reward: Effort Ratio being to High ". Let me unpack this...

Are you Implying... because Samurai enjoyment is way to high for its Effort to Reward ratio it's Fun... being to Good!? it requires to be worse so that it's fun for everyone!?

What is this argument point what, you... you lost me what...

Here's a better take if that's the argument point... why not make every Job more fun, better, easier barrier of entry and Complex for skill expression to please any type of player between Casual to dedicated High-End? What even is...what am I reading!? what the ...hail...

Please tell me this is a joke... your job is to fun, there for it needs to be worse for others to have fun...that's your comeback? holy crap...

I need to touch some water and eat some grass

No, that's obviously not it. Because you're clearly not enjoying yourself on SAM at present, as you've made most of this subforum aware by this point.

'Reward' here means the amount of damage you do for the effort you put in. If anyone can do what you do and reproduce your high damage result, then nobody values your work. And then the job becomes saturated with mediocre players. If you're skilled at your job, you want to maintain that barrier to entry so that what you do remains unique, while simultaneously being able to make an impact that your team can value you for. It's about thinking about the long term rather than the short term, and knowing when to ask for buffs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Dodging my factual statistics argument aside, now it goes into " Reward: Effort Ratio being to High ". Let me unpack this...

Are you Implying... because Samurai enjoyment is way to high for its Effort to Reward ratio it's Fun... being to Good!? it requires to be worse so that it's fun for everyone!?

What is this argument point what, you... you lost me what...

Here's a better take if that's the argument point... why not make every Job more fun, better, easier barrier of entry and Complex for skill expression to please any type of player between Casual to dedicated High-End? What even is...what am I reading!? what the ...hail...

Please tell me this is a joke... your job is to fun, there for it needs to be worse for others to have fun...that's your comeback? holy crap...

I need to touch some water and eat some grass

---

I believe Lyth is saying that due to the fact the job performs so well and is easy to pick up, that of course it's going to be played often. They aren't refuting a point about subjectivity to SAM specifically.

Though I only skimmed the conversation, so maybe I'm missing something, but I'll leave that to y'all to debate.

There's definitely an aspect, that I hope the devs won't ignore, to multiplayer games where gameplay features will always be used simply because they offer the most reward for least effort regardless of how well designed and fun they are. I mean, you would think they'd realize it after several years of gear scummers forcing everyone to run through the CT raids because "it's faster" (but jesus christ do they not feel it after your hundredth run).

Just like WHM is always going to be by far the most played healer no matter what because it's obviously the most accessible simply by being the only one available from level 1, in addition to having the simplest kit. Almost any player who's spent a few minutes thinking about the play-rates seems to figure this out, but for some reason the devs apparently can't because they can't stop homogenizing that entire role to hell even when they add a new class based entirely around the selling point "do damage to heal!". I guess they are just looking at WHM numbers and assuming it has to be the most fun healer and every step away into a different playstyle is a failure.

So I don't know. It'd help me feel a lot less anxious about the future of this game if the devs did anything to show they understand this concept outside the jobs they actually play.

Shame they show no sign of giving back kaiten and undoing the potency nerfs.
I was considering swapping to sam if they gave it back since I am ditching healing the rest of this expansion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Shame they show no sign of giving back kaiten and undoing the potency nerfs.
I was considering swapping to sam if they gave it back since I am ditching healing the rest of this expansion.

---

We'll find out what they're gonna do this Friday. There's no way they ignore talking about SAM again right? :copium:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reese_Clairdale

I would say these statements are in direct opposition.

Inevitably some people will find the new SAM tolerable or even enjoyable, but this isn't good for the overall health of the game, especially where playstyle diversity is concerned. 6.1 SAM has the least amount of Samurai flavor than at any other point in time.

If people want to play the quick unrelenting striker with moderate potency per hit, MNK has been available since 1.0, which is precisely why SAM does in fact need a revert before any more changes that trend towards homogeneity are made.

---

I don't see your point. I enjoy both so contradictory = bad?
new sam is nothing like monk even at lower levels, it feels unique to itself. sam has never felt like a different job besides directional attacks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smol_cofe

new sam is nothing like monk even at lower levels, it feels unique to itself. sam has never felt like a different job besides directional attacks.

---

SAM's first Kenki spender is now Shinten (Lv.52 oGCD direct damage) rather than Kaiten (Lv.52 oGCD buff used on your hardest hitting GCDs, you know, the ones "you focus on building up to attack"?) This fundamentally makes it more like MNK, whose first Chakra gauge spender is now Lv.15 oGCD direct damage. Even SAM's positional attacks used to boost Kenki gain rather than affecting potency directly, once again making it more like other jobs. On the flip side, MNK has also been made more like SAM, given a mechanic at Lv.60 that boils down to collecting stickers to unleash high potency attacks.

Whether or not you enjoy the new gameplay styles, it is undeniable that these jobs have been made more like each other, especially at lower levels. My point is that if changes like this keep being made then every job will eventually be the same.

And yes, contradictory = bad. I don't understand how someone can grasp SAM's appeal while simultaneously being apathetic to the erosion of its identity. All you are going to achieve is confusing and frustrating anybody that engages with you.

your break down of why it's similar is too meta to have real identity issues imo. blm and rdm both have to stand still to cast so they're identical. how I can grasp both is it still feels like a samurai trope. le methodical but lethal vs quick but deadly. think samurai champloo if you've seen it.

So it's okay to toss the original gameplay and aesthetic design philosophies of Final Fantasy XIV's Samurai out of the window because uhhhhh... that one anime I watched in 2006 exists. Got it.

I can only pray that this madness is resolved on the 12th.

seething lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smol_cofe

your break down of why it's similar is too meta to have real identity issues imo. blm and rdm both have to stand still to cast so they're identical. how I can grasp both is it still feels like a samurai trope. le methodical but lethal vs quick but deadly. think samurai champloo if you've seen it.

---

Is that supposed to be an argument to justify your stance ?
New sam is worse at showing Sam identity than it was before. Our strongest hit with a cast and preparation barely crits higher than a regular GCD.

Also what the hell are you on ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smol_cofe

your break down of why it's similar is too meta to have real identity issues imo. blm and rdm both have to stand still to cast so they're identical. how I can grasp both is it still feels like a samurai trope. le methodical but lethal vs quick but deadly. think samurai champloo if you've seen it.

---

This is inane.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naoki34

I think it's perfect, I don't know what you're complaining about and have a nice funeral.

---

The only people that think its fine the way it is now are freestyle sam's that never played the job correctly and barely or never touch savage or EX content.

Make all the hits and crits hit for 1 it’s not as fun to play as it was DRG feels more engaging

i have capped all my jobs and each of them have their good point and their bad points and i enjoy taking the time to learn all of them just in case some of them need updates to improve them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by george357

i have capped all my jobs and each of them have their good point and their bad points and i enjoy taking the time to learn all of them just in case some of them need updates to improve them.

---

gigachad this one

I wish more people that didn't just grab the jobstone from ul'dah 5 minutes go could withhold their opinion on the job and do what you do instead by levelling and learning the job

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flashy

gigachad this one

I wish more people that didn't just grab the jobstone from ul'dah 5 minutes go could withhold their opinion on the job and do what you do instead by levelling and learning the job

---

Bit hypocritical for you to say?

Some of us had indeed played the job till 90 & still going onward & yet you still condenm the individual as still “not knowing the job” as it is no stranger to hear it fron Rensu & Celes which is far dulling & -yawn- the only expression they can throw due to Kaiten’s madness : /

-sips Ishgardian wine-

This keeps going & going…

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ransu

The only people that think its fine the way it is now are freestyle sam's that never played the job correctly and barely or never touch savage or EX content.

---

Pretty much this.

Players self-proclaimed awareness of understanding a job? is bound to the Content they are doing. Feedback coming from players who admit only ever done " Normal Content " does not give good credibility on them actually having a grasp on a Job, because they require near no understanding for any of it.

But, apparently we have to sit here and take opinions from a " Weaver main " and another player with to much mogstationskips/ time on their hands to level everything yet can't manage to obtain the " Might Be Savage " title, and yet still regard themselves as self-pro-claimed-creditable-sources on... Samurai feedback...

" Misshapen Chair " pointed out in his videos, the changes feels aimed to no one specific. Removing complexity just makes us un-happy, but making the jobs dumber makes almost no sense since these lazy players are already getting their dead bodies dragged through normal content finish lines anyways. So who these simplifying changes are supposed to please? makes no sense. But, if it's to make not jus Samurai but many Jobs dumber? SE are on the right path.

This video from " Misshapen Chair " illustrates it pretty much, I can quote what Misshapen said...

" Misshapen: Which brings me to the real question, who are these changes for? Super Casuals who don't want to play the game correctly anyways? Can't be, because they are just going to mash whatever button their little heart desires. Is it for hardcore players who are going to maximize their job no matter how stupid it is? That doesn't seem right either because usually those are the players that are most in love with the small amounts of complexity that the game offers them. "

Continues on that the changes that obviously simplify the game? are done perhaps to lower the bar of high-end content to appeal to casual players. Which is a very bad reason in my opinion, since all it does is delude the existing gameplay to make high-content palatable to players who have no taste for it.

Celes,

Dear Celes,

How much further are you willing to go on for this merry mad ride?

No matter the lengths of your stance, you just haven’t truly acknowledged it simply is not here.

Wait till Friday -sighs & sips Ishgardian wine-

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vencio

Celes...

---

For as long as I am not directly referencing players by their name, and still making plenty feel spoken to enough to respond to mine? Some going even through lengths to hide their achievements. No you of any soul that has done that recently? I digress... Like limited raiding achievements, this all " Could be Worse ".

Instead of responding about me, you could respond about what I post. The Video's / the Changes / the Pro's and Con's on how it affected your Samurai gameplay in XYZ content. Perhaps your raiding opener feeling different, or the reduced damage in dungeons and fates being a positive somehow. Then again your posts are as empty as SE's promises, 0 valid points and 0 argument points. Just unmoderated taunting and trolling.

Your next post is just going to be about pointing out how players should stop complaining like a company suck up, not giving any valid feedback, ignoring any points made by anyone, while RP-ing sipping wine on another Samurai post for the 40th? time now. I haven't read your post-history but I think it's probably about your 40 post like that, give or take.

Just fyi? Troll-Forum-Parsing is a... weird flex...

My dear,

We’ve come off lately regardless of your “innumerable paragraphs” which alreadybreinforced the obvious & yet remain stubborn to go along through. Its a wonder how determined you are…

Hide achievements? What are you saying? I am not hiding anything.

It appears your rage is directed to SE as much as me all due to having something being taken away & thus start your crusade to retake Kaiten endlessly. This feels more like spams if you ask me : /

-sips Ishgardian wine-

I am merely going along the ride & just observe as I’ve long made my statements & therefore no needbto further flood the DPS forums (leave that to your crusade). We can only wait what Friday may reveal….

Till then! -Sips Ishgardian wine-

PS: Anything but…..a troll please…i am not one.

PSS: Sincelery Vencio The Elezen Prince of Hearts

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vencio

My dear,

We’ve come off lately regardless of your “innumerable paragraphs” which alreadybreinforced the obvious & yet remain stubborn to go along through. Its a wonder how determined you are…

Hide achievements? What are you saying? I am not hiding anything.

It appears your rage is directed to SE as much as me all due to having something being taken away & thus start your crusade to retake Kaiten endlessly. This feels more like spams if you ask me : /

-sips Ishgardian wine-

I am merely going along the ride & just observe as I’ve long made my statements & therefore no needbto further flood the DPS forums (leave that to your crusade). We can only wait what Friday may reveal….

Till then! -Sips Ishgardian wine-

PS: Anything but…..a troll please…i am not one.

PSS: Sincelery Vencio The Elezen Prince of Hearts

---

You are 100% a troll.

I'm happy to know I successfully have most of the cringe roleplay going here on ignore, but can y'all stop quoting it though?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

I'm happy to know I successfully have most of the cringe roleplay going here on ignore, but can y'all stop quoting it though?

---

That's what I'm saying

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

I'm happy to know I successfully have most of the cringe roleplay going here on ignore, but can y'all stop quoting it though?

---

Yeah. I've just been blocking the very obvious trolls, and I see at least the named response. It's been obvious for a long time that most aren't interested in engaging in any real discussion, rather they just want to continue stirring the pot because some people's fun got removed due to bad decision making.

We can all just ignore the freak show and move on. They'll get bored when they realize they only have an audience of one and that being themselves. By the way, who the hell RP's in troll posts? That's just really weird to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vencio

snip

---

Dang dude, if you weren't so drunk on that Ishgardian refuse water you might have been able to hit kaiten once in a while before they ripped it away.

You can still hit shinten, right? Or...move in a straight line, yes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Dang dude, if you weren't so drunk on that Ishgardian refuse water you might have been able to hit kaiten once in a while before they ripped it away.

You can still hit shinten, right? Or...move in a straight line, yes?

---

Kaiten still exists in PvP though!