Rewritten MSQ - Garlemald and EW

Especially since, in this person's own words:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

I said you weren't equipped and are uneducated, meaning you don't have the experience to understand why people like Endwalker.

[...]

No need to read about Nietzsche or anyone, you just need empathy, but then again, Karens don't have any.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

They may be extreme but they're grounded in things seen often here. Expressing you like aspects of the game that the loud folks here hate is a quick way to get you crapped on. Or folks will just call your standards low or accuse you of holding the game back. Respect on these forums only seems to come when you agree with folks about what they dislike.

Just saying...anhaato is a prime contender for what I'm talking about, yet you don't see anyone who shares his thoughts calling him out for being toxic and disrespectful. I can only think of one reason why.

---

Oh I didn't even realize you namedropped me here, I just immediately scroll past your posts as soon as I see your icon. My response is; get out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat. Don't talk shit if you don't want the smoke. Joking ways of saying this aside, you cannot seriously expect to be treated with respect after you display a clear lack thereof in my direction from the jump. Or, let me guess, it's only ok for the superior story enjoyers to act in such a way to the inferior story haters?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anhaato

Oh I didn't even realize you namedropped me here, I just immediately scroll past your posts as soon as I see your icon. My response is; get out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat. Don't talk shit if you don't want the smoke. Joking ways of saying this aside, you cannot seriously expect to be treated with respect after you display a clear lack thereof in my direction from the jump. Or, let me guess, it's only ok for the superior story enjoyers to act in such a way to the inferior story haters?

---

When did I talk shit though? You throw smoke at dang near EVERYONE who disagrees with you whether they're being respectful or not. Lets be real here. You continue to do this because as ive already said folks here co sign and agree with you. Folks calling people "ill equipped and uneducated" doesn't help worth anything but that stuff is immediately called out and piled on, yet the same isn't done on the ther side. Im not the only one to notice this.

Also where did I claim or even infer story enjoyers are superior and story dislikers are inferior? I'm not the one telling folks if they don't like the story they have crap tastes like others have said about story enjoyers. Your guess has no foundation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

They may be extreme but they're grounded in things seen often here. Expressing you like aspects of the game that the loud folks here hate is a quick way to get you crapped on. Or folks will just call your standards low or accuse you of holding the game back. Respect on these forums only seems to come when you agree with folks about what they dislike.

Just saying...anhaato is a prime contender for what I'm talking about, yet you don't see anyone who shares his thoughts calling him out for being toxic and disrespectful. I can only think of one reason why.

---

I just have to share my thoughts here. I find it extremely ironic you pointing out the whole “don’t see anyone who shares his thoughts calling him out.” You’re right, this is a pretty prominent problem however considering i’ve been on the opposite end of it i can say it’s not absent on either side. In fact i think i’ve seen it worse on the other side, where i’ll literally be insulted or worse, i’ll defend myself, and one of the people who supports the agitators arguments goes after me and calls me out and not the person who shares their views. As for everything else you’ve said, as i’ve brought up before, i think you’re the last person to be trying to correct or critique someone considering you’ve called people parasites and numerous posters have come forth as having problems with you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I just have to share my thoughts here. I find it extremely ironic you pointing out the whole “don’t see anyone who shares his thoughts calling him out.” You’re right, this is a pretty prominent problem however considering i’ve been on the opposite end of it i can say it’s not absent on either side. In fact i think i’ve seen it worse on the other side, where i’ll literally be insulted or worse, i’ll defend myself, and one of the people who supports the agitators arguments goes after me and calls me out and not the person who shares their views. As for everything else you’ve said, as i’ve brought up before, i think you’re the last person to be trying to correct or critique someone considering you’ve called people parasites and numerous posters have come forth as having problems with you.

---

Almost everybody in this thread, including yours truly, has had "numerous posters" that have problems with them. That's kind of the nature of forums where tribalism is common. Everybody gets the dogpiling eventually, whether deserved or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Almost everybody in this thread, including yours truly, has had "numerous posters" that have problems with them. That's kind of the nature of forums where tribalism is common. Everybody gets the dogpiling eventually, whether deserved or not.

---

You've posted 477 times since march?! Of course you have people that have problems with you, when you're posting multiple comments every day... cast a wider net and catch more fish, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I just have to share my thoughts here. I find it extremely ironic you pointing out the whole “don’t see anyone who shares his thoughts calling him out.” You’re right, this is a pretty prominent problem however considering i’ve been on the opposite end of it i can say it’s not absent on either side. In fact i think i’ve seen it worse on the other side, where i’ll literally be insulted or worse, i’ll defend myself, and one of the people who supports the agitators arguments goes after me and calls me out and not the person who shares their views. As for everything else you’ve said, as i’ve brought up before, i think you’re the last person to be trying to correct or critique someone considering you’ve called people parasites and numerous posters have come forth as having problems with you.

---

It doesnt exactly bother me that a few people here have issues with me. Plenty of others don't n I've actively told folks to put me on ignore. This whole deal is ofc a matter of perspective. Different folks will see and experience different things here. None are inherently wrong imo hence why I won't nor would tell you you're wrong in what you've experience here.

Also since you seem to like to bring it up, care to explain the context of why I called one person (not people) a parasite? Context means a great deal and you seem to always leave that out to make me look bad.

Also I challenge you, bring up every post that I've made a go at someone and do the same for a person ive mentioned. Compare the 2 and then tell me who is the worst offender here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuritzkale

You've posted 477 times since march?! Of course you have people that have problems with you, when you're posting multiple comments every day... cast a wider net and catch more fish, right?

---

It's...really not that much? Hell, I often go for days without actually posting.

Hell, the poster above my last post alone has 3,382 posts since Feb 2021. That's an average of 199 posts per month compared to my 119.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I just have to share my thoughts here. I find it extremely ironic you pointing out the whole “don’t see anyone who shares his thoughts calling him out.” You’re right, this is a pretty prominent problem however considering i’ve been on the opposite end of it i can say it’s not absent on either side. In fact i think i’ve seen it worse on the other side, where i’ll literally be insulted or worse, i’ll defend myself, and one of the people who supports the agitators arguments goes after me and calls me out and not the person who shares their views. As for everything else you’ve said, as i’ve brought up before, i think you’re the last person to be trying to correct or critique someone considering you’ve called people parasites and numerous posters have come forth as having problems with you.

---

It absolutely is on all sides (both isn't really relevant since there are sometimes multiple sides). That said, the message isn't any less true based on the messenger. There are instances where instead of debating in good faith, people just try to shout each other down. And that's just not constructive. Maybe we can all try to use this as a jumping off point to try to debate with each more in good faith.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

When did I talk shit though? You throw smoke at dang near EVERYONE who disagrees with you whether they're being respectful or not. Lets be real here. You continue to do this because as ive already said folks here co sign and agree with you. Folks calling people "ill equipped and uneducated" doesn't help worth anything but that stuff is immediately called out and piled on, yet the same isn't done on the ther side. Im not the only one to notice this.

Also where did I claim or even infer story enjoyers are superior and story dislikers are inferior? I'm not the one telling folks if they don't like the story they have crap tastes like others have said about story enjoyers. Your guess has no foundation.

---

I was talking about the person who was calling me uneducated, not you. But if you are here refusing to call out that sort of behavior on your own side, then your complaints about no one on my side calling me out ring hollow. I respond respectfully to people who speak respectfully to me, unfortunately people are rarely that. Just look through this thread and you'll see nothing but shade.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Almost everybody in this thread, including yours truly, has had "numerous posters" that have problems with them. That's kind of the nature of forums where tribalism is common. Everybody gets the dogpiling eventually, whether deserved or not.

---

Well that’s my point though. It’s not a one sided thing a majority of the people in the community do it. People naturally will ignore the horrible things the people on their side say and object and intervene when someone on the opposing side is defending themselves. In the case of where it’s involved me i specifically point out the double standard and get no response seemingly because they know what they’re doing is wrong and have no excuse for it other than “they support my points therefore i need to white knight for them.”

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anhaato

I was talking about the person who was calling me uneducated, not you. But if you are here refusing to call out that sort of behavior on your own side, then your complaints about no one on my side calling me out ring hollow. I respond respectfully to people who speak respectfully to me, unfortunately people are rarely that. Just look through this thread and you'll see nothing but shade.

---

I did say calling people uneducated n such is wrong, yet folks have already gotten on him for that. Dude doesn't need person number 6 to tell him to chill tf out (not unless he keeps it up ofc). And let's say folks are indeed being disrespectful. What is gained from being the same way back? (and I say this as someone who falls short of this at times as well). Being toxic to toxicity only breeds more toxicity. It's clear there's split here between the sides. It's just from my view certain things get passes on particular sides while others don't. That's only an opinion. Same with your view

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Well that’s my point though. It’s not a one sided thing a majority of the people in the community do it. People naturally will ignore the horrible things the people on their side say and object and intervene when someone on the opposing side is defending themselves. In the case of where it’s involved me i specifically point out the double standard and get no response seemingly because they know what they’re doing is wrong and have no excuse for it other than “they support my points therefore i need to white knight for them.”

---

I'm going to be honest -- I don't ever recall you doing it. Let alone for people "on your side". Usually, when I see "double standards" called out, it's based on superficial similarities on things that aren't comparable as a "Whatabout".

Granted, I'm not in every thread at once and I'm speaking from personal POV, but still....based on that, definitely not.

I've commented on this issue before:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

At the end of the day, it's just a video game. One many of us are varying degrees of passionate about, certainly, though I personally don't care for rivalries to form over something that is entirely fictional. As such, my stance has ever been to agree to disagree where common ground cannot be found. I don't care for endless arguments over morality and I'd like to think I've made it perfectly clear that if anyone has a problem with me, then they're very welcome to come and talk it out in a civil manner.

I like working out and discussing the 'how' and 'why' things happen in the way that they do in any given story or historical event, though my personal preferences drift towards characters and factions that have lofty stakes over those that have everything work out to their benefit most of the time.

One thing I noticed, however, was that some pretty spiteful and nasty accusations were aimed at anyone who ever dared to speak up in favour of the antagonists. This included death threats, homophobic comments and other unpleasant elements. Given that the offending posts were deleted, however, then such will have to be taken with a pinch of salt - though I'd like to think those who are being genuine and who have been around for a while will be aware of what I'm speaking of. Especially since some of the offending comments leaked into Reddit, Twitter and certain Discord servers.
The most fascinating thing I observed was that certain posters would repeatedly launch thinly veiled attacks and sometimes direct personal attacks at fans of the antagonists, implying all manner of horrible things about their person and real world morality. When finally those being assaulted had enough, even a minor quip in response would be treated as some deeply horrific crime and personal attack.

I will say that things have improved somewhat since then. Right around the same time that the game itself revealed that, yes, actually there was more to the Ascians and Garleans all along.

Ultimately any given individual is going to have their personal preferences and interests. I've never suggested that anyone has to like specific characters or factions. I only ask that the same courtesy is extended to others in turn.

In closing, I'd also note that the game attracts players from many different countries, cultures, backgrounds and belief systems. We all have different life experiences, so that is going to influence what we like and we don't like.

---

I bolded the most relevant portion since that's often the most applicable and it extends to many other issues such as criticism of the story being seen as worthy of personal attacks.

Furthermore, the concept of 'whataboutism' is almost always simply used to deflect from the fact that someone is going around deliberately provoking posters only to proclaim that any pushback in response is the worst thing ever and that any mention of the act leading to the response is somehow suddenly irrelevant even if it took place in the same thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Furthermore, the concept of 'whataboutism' is almost always simply used to deflect from the fact that someone is going around deliberately provoking posters only to proclaim that any pushback in response is the worst thing ever and that any mention of the act leading to the response is somehow suddenly irrelevant even if it took place in the same thread.

---

No. "Whataboutism" is a deliberate attempt to compare an apple to a banana to claim that one viewpoint has equal validity to another. As someone else pointed out in a different thread, it's a superficial deontological argument that tries to claim that "if you claim X is a bad thing, then that means it must be bad ALL the time, no matter what". Such as claiming that if killing is wrong, then it's equally wrong for someone to kill an axe-wielding serial killer in self-defense. That is a "whataboutism".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

I've commented on this issue before:



I bolded the most relevant portion since that's often the most applicable and it extends to many other issues such as criticism of the story being seen as worthy of personal attacks.

Furthermore, the concept of 'whataboutism' is almost always simply used to deflect from the fact that someone is going around deliberately provoking posters only to proclaim that any pushback in response is the worst thing ever and that any mention of the act leading to the response is somehow suddenly irrelevant even if it took place in the same thread.

---

Theodric has the right of it here. SO. MANY. TIMES. have those who love Endwalker and Hydaelyn, and hate Emet-Selch and the Ascians Three, anything Ancient, Zodiark etc. not nearly as subtly as they like to think implied that we who like Garlemald or the Ascians for any reason at all are actually supporters of fascism and genocide in real life and I'm so sick of it. It's sickeningly ironic, seeing as how I possess many qualities irl, up to and including my sexuality and gender identity that the real Nazis would stone me to death for if they were granted the power to do so.

Frankly, I can't take anymore of this 'you guys are oh so terrible and we are such innocent widdle angels' shit over someone else's dislike of your favorite video game character. What is so evil about our differing opinions that the Ever Faithful Hounds of Hydaelyn have to dogpile us and rip our flesh to pieces every time we have the gall to post a provisional 'MSQ revision' and hide it under the guise of 'lore correction' or other such tripe?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Theodric has the right of it here. SO. MANY. TIMES. have those who love Endwalker and Hydaelyn, and hate Emet-Selch and the Ascians Three, anything Ancient, Zodiark etc. not nearly as subtly as they like to think implied that we who like Garlemald or the Ascians for any reason at all are actually supporters of fascism and genocide in real life and I'm so sick of it. It's sickeningly ironic, seeing as how I possess many qualities irl, up to and including my sexuality and gender identity that the real Nazis would stone me to death for if they were granted the power to do so.

Frankly, I can't take anymore of this 'you guys are oh so terrible and we are such innocent widdle angels' shit over someone else's dislike of your favorite video game character. What is so evil about our differing opinions that the Ever Faithful Hounds of Hydaelyn have to dogpile us and rip our flesh to pieces every time we have the gall to post a provisional 'MSQ revision' and hide it under the guise of 'lore correction' or other such tripe?

---

You outta chill out...

I mean she isn't wrong about them speaking over others' ideas of "what could have been" by citing and wielding lore to suit whatever argument they are making. Imagining things as if they were different is kind of the whole point. I have a lot more respect for people who are honest enough to say that they like or dislike certain characters and that is why they like or dislike what the story did with them. It gets tiresome when one says "I wish they took things in this direction" and then you have a bunch of people typing paragraphs in protest, sometimes subtly implying things about others.

I do not believe that Endwalker was as well-crafted in terms of its story as Shadowbringers. I do not believe that it effectively used each character to their full potential, and that it was more concerned with overt messaging than providing an entertaining experience. I do not pick a theme and then write a story around that theme, I come up with things I want to write down and if a theme naturally arises from that sequence of events then so be it - better yet if such things are left to the reader's interpretation rather than me having to spell everything out like Endwalker did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I mean she isn't wrong about them speaking over others' ideas of "what could have been" by citing and wielding lore to suit whatever argument they are making. Imagining things as if they were different is kind of the whole point. I have a lot more respect for people who are honest enough to say that they like or dislike certain characters and that is why they like or dislike what the story did with them. It gets tiresome when one says "I wish they took things in this direction" and then you have a bunch of people typing paragraphs in protest, sometimes subtly implying things about others.

I do not believe that Endwalker was as well-crafted in terms of its story as Shadowbringers. I do not believe that it effectively used each character to their full potential, and that it was more concerned with overt messaging than providing an entertaining experience.

---

People being talked over happens all the time here. It's not exactly cool to like EWs story here as 100 folks will come out siting their reasons why it's bad to them. It's why you don't see many if any positive threads on the first pages of the OF.

That being said, this person went WAY left field with the fascist n genocide stuff. I've yet to see anybody claim that about folks here, if anything most of what I see are folks saying you can't be ok with one and not the other. Sexuality, gender identity...nazis, tearing of flesh? They're clearly tripping rn and no point in defending it like that's not the case.

Plus...I've also seen you jump on folks who express favorable opinions of Graha Tia so...sort of an odd take

Possibly people speak out against the quality of Endwalker's story because there are a lot of concrete things to point to in its structure and use of plot devices like time travel and memory wipes instead of relying on strong characterization. I imagine the poster you responded to was also frustrated because the FFXIV community has on numerous occasions treated players badly or insinuated things about their character for liking the antagonist factions.

G'raha Tia is quite literally a character who regressed in terms of his writing quality and by the end of Endwalker was robbed of all agency. He is a comfort character with off-putting qualities that no longer contributes to the narrative in meaningful ways. I don't care if people want to make fanart of him baking cupcakes with the WoL. Just don't waste my time with that nonsense in the MSQ.

No other character is forced onto the WoL like this in the story. I imagine if they did something like this with ARR Thancred that sectors of the community would deem it "problematic" yet the red-headed catboy gets a free pass it seems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Possibly people speak out against the quality of Endwalker's story because there are a lot of concrete things to point to in its structure and use of plot devices like time travel and memory wipes instead of relying on strong characterization. I imagine the poster you responded to was also frustrated because the FFXIV community has on numerous occasions treated players badly or insinuated things about their character for liking the antagonist factions.

G'raha Tia is quite literally a character who regressed in terms of his writing quality and by the end of Endwalker was robbed of all agency. He is a comfort character with off-putting qualities that no longer contributes to the narrative in meaningful ways. I don't care if people want to make fanart of him baking cupcakes with the WoL. Just don't waste my time with that nonsense in the MSQ.

No other character is forced onto the WoL like this in the story. I imagine if they did something like this with ARR Thancred that sectors of the community would deem it "problematic" yet the red-headed catboy gets a free pass it seems.

---

You "imagine" folks would have an issue if Thancred was the same in ARR...based on what exactly? Your own biased views? They hold no weight when speaking about others as thats purely about you n your wants tbf.

You can't exactly have played EW and then turn around and claim he doesn't contribute to the narrative...thats objectively false. He isn't the main character like he was in ShB but that doesn't mean he now contributes nothing. He finally gets to be himself without the burden of a world on his hands. The "exarch" isn't absent by any means though as shown in Radz. And when shit goes down he doesn't play around as seen in Garl. He just doesnt have to be in that mode at all times now. I wouldn't call that a regression at all. And let's not pretend Graha hasn't always been a fanboy. The story let's you know this numerous times prior to EW. If its a waste of your time there's a skip feature for a reason.

Also..."red headed catboy", really? This just comes off like hater speak

Fanboy characters who are mostly used as overt fanservice are detrimental to the narrative and I am extremely unlikely to be swayed from that position. The few moments of heroics he was afforded in Endwalker do not erase all the other times when he was reduced to what I would describe as a ridiculous spectacle.

That is the image of him that stuck. A sparkly eyed burger eating catboy who has to tell me how much he loves me every 5 minutes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Fanboy characters who are mostly used as overt fanservice are detrimental to the narrative and I am extremely unlikely to be swayed from that position. The few moments of heroics he was afforded in Endwalker do not erase all the other times when he was reduced to what I would describe as a ridiculous spectacle.

That is the image of him that stuck. A sparkly eyed burger eating catboy who has to tell me how much he loves me every 5 minutes.

---

Because that's how cool we are? Saving the world and the shard, defeating primals, and other heroic stuff. For sure I'll go fanboy over my WoL if I see him with my own eyes :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Fanboy characters who are mostly used as overt fanservice are detrimental to the narrative and I am extremely unlikely to be swayed from that position. The few moments of heroics he was afforded in Endwalker do not erase all the other times when he was reduced to what I would describe as a ridiculous spectacle.

That is the image of him that stuck. A sparkly eyed burger eating catboy who has to tell me how much he loves me every 5 minutes.

---

Then all I can say is I'm glad I don't share your outlook. It has allowed me to enjoy far more than you do about EW clearly. The story isn't reducing his character you are. But ofc you'll never see it that way and would rather point fingers at the writers (who aren't perfect before you claim thats what I'm saying). And also before you possibly claim it Graha isn't my favorite character or anything, that's tied between Thancred and Hilda lol

Wow, Just wow.........and I thought the Zodiark Trance comic was edgy afk but this takes it to whole another level.