New Alliance Raid is severely undertuned.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I just want the bosses to have more HP so that they get to showcase all of their mechanics.

The way some of the 24 mans melt just isn't respectful to the original design intentions of the content, and can be very underwhelming for new players and old players alike.

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Yeah, I find it weird thinking this myself, given how much people dislike "damage sponges" in games, but I don't care so much about difficulty as them just getting to show off the whole routine while they're still new. If they had a bit more HP they'd get to do that and our gear in 6.2 and 6.3 would naturally start saving time once there's other things to do, just like all the past alliance raids.

I think the issue with mechanics not showing up past the initial teaching phase is definitely exacerbated by 14's modern "teleport to center of arena. Cast for a hundred years. Do nothing for the next twenty seconds" model of boss design. It leaves huge gaps of downtime that players use to beat them faster.

It seems fairly consistent with every other alliance raid at launch.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

*snip*

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They nerfed thunder daddy 3 stack from a one shot to 60% hp and a vuln because apparently the player base was too mentally challenged to get 3 people to stack in a circle.

Not sure what you're expecting.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Not falling asleep for 70 minutes is more boring that not falling asleep for 50 minutes, don't you think ?.

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that's why you make it not boring. as it stands now its to easy and boring.

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

I don't understand the assumption that the moment someone asks things to be tuned a bit better that they are immediately a Savage/Ultimate raider and want to gatekeep. Or that they want everything to be at Savage difficulty, which not even savage is anymore which is its own separate issue. I personally don't bother with Savage or Ultimate, I don't want to fight the same boss for hours wiping constantly but at the same time I don't want to be able to beat said boss with half the alliance having died at some point with death debuffs and vuln debuffs galore and still not even generate a single LB3 on week 2. Hells, I'm not even in full i590 yet. I just want to be able to have a nice time where I can see all of the boss's mechanics and use LB3s while the content is still current, and not be able to pull up Netflix on my second monitor and watch that while just numbly following to victory.

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you don't? this people want the game to be on auto play 100% of the time so they cn get all the good looking glams and not play.

I'd rather seem them increase the speed of which attacks happen than they upping the boss health.

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Originally Posted by DuskTS

I don't get this forum obsession with turning every content into savage.
Just go play Elden Ring if you want to stress your hair out over pixels.
If you don't find FFXIV engaging enough go do Ultimate like Yoshi-P says.

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Maybe read the post next time, you clearly didn't if you took from this that anybody was saying it needs to be savage difficulty.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

This is wrong, unless they change something in future patches which typically doesn't happen. We will have to run this for the rest of the expansion for tokens to upgrade gear, unless you do the savage content for the same tokens.

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Okay, I'll grant you that. But I still don't think they intend the earlier alliance raids to be the same challenge throughout the entire expansion, as the earlier comment seemed to imply.

Intention aside, I also do not think it would be practical to make a single alliance raid a challenge from the at-launch combat gear tier (i.e., the range from i560 artifact gear through to i600 savage or augmented tomestone gear) all the way through to the final gear tier of the expansion (which, I assume, likely ends at i660, probably i665 when the relic weapon for this expansion is in its final stage); that would literally be a 100 ilevel range. Yes, we have ilevel sync. It is also wonky as heck, as we can see with how even synced down, people can faceroll the Crystal Tower alliance raids now.

And even without level sync, it's demonstrably hard enough to tune content just for a 30-ilevel range and still have the low-level and the high-level of that range have a power differential you can actually witness/feel.

Because folks who raid savage do want there to be a measurable difference between the base level of gear you start raiding with (i580, right now) and the high end of the raiding gear tier (i600). (Or at least, I know I want to feel like upgrading my gear actually makes a difference, as do many other raiders in my social circle.)

Considering the alliance raid has to be at least theoretically possible with everyone in i565 gear, and how much of a difference bumping from even i580 base gear to a mix of i590 and i600 can make in savage... I am not at all surprised that the fights are starting to feel faster/less hard-hitting.

After all, we're two weeks in, which means anyone could now have 2 pieces of left-side i590 gear (the Panthean armor drop for each week), plus two pieces of i600 gear (Radiant stuff augmented with the token) on either left or right side, all without ever setting foot in savage. That is going to make a noticeable difference, I suspect. Even if the alliance raid isn't slightly undertuned.

(Which, as mentioned earlier, I do think it is -- but I also think it's due to the stats squash and the team not quite having a feel for how best to balance the new numbers, which is both potentially easily adjusted and not really the end of the world even if it isn't ever changed.)

Nald'thal is pretty neat but the other fights in the alliance raid are pretty zzzzzzzzzzzz, yeah. I don't think anything will be as hard as the Ivalice alliance raids ever again (...nor should they be, honestly. DF content shouldn't be that awful to complete). but I'd definitely like them to be a step up from the Nier raids in terms of difficulty. I don't even necessarily want harder mechanics, I just want faster ones.

why people now days want any thing just be given to them for free and no effort what so ever?

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Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

why people now days want any thing just be given to them for free and no effort what so ever?

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Why do people keep falsely saying "no effort"? It seems alot of you don't know what that means.

Is this the end of Final Fantasy XIV? :o

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Originally Posted by Ishe-P

Is this the end of Final Fantasy XIV? :o

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This needs to be added to the "Many Deaths of FF XIV" thread, if it still exists. :p

I think it’s too easy as well. But I also think there’s a problem with what two conflicting playerbases think alliance raids should be. One group looks at alliance raids as a concept and see that they should be midcore content. But the other group looks at it as yet another content they should be able to put no effort into and have others carry them through it. It’s like how that second group complained that Delubrum was toooooo hard. Meanwhile the rest of us were relieved we had a single piece of midcore content.

To be fair, this raid is tuned at 565 (Whether this is good is an entirely different discussion), but most people are already geared quite significantly above. Not only that, we have already seen how the general player-base reacts to 'difficult' alliance raids, going as far as to neck their own item level to avoid anything inconvenient.

From my experience farming this a bit, most of my runs have been around the 25-35 minute mark, which if I'm honest is the perfect length of time for an alliance raid.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

To be fair, this raid is tuned at 565 (Whether this is good is an entirely different discussion), but most people are already geared quite significantly above. Not only that, we have already how the general player-base reacts to 'difficult' alliance raids, going as far as to neck their own item level to avoid anything inconvenient.

From my experience farming this a bit, most of my runs have been around the 25-35 minute mark, which if I'm honest is the perfect length of time for an alliance raid.

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I think it's fine it's tuned for 565. Upwards of getting you 560 Job gear and accessories from Expert dungeons... how else would a more casual player gear? I suppose there's crafted items which TBF can be expensive some servers, and a few pieces from Aphorism thrown in. I'm someone who had Savage prospects, and I still disliked capping Astronomy every week.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

I think it's fine it's tuned for 565. Upwards of getting you 560 Job gear and accessories from Expert dungeons... how else would a more casual player gear? I suppose there's crafted items which TBF can be expensive some servers, and a few pieces from Aphorism thrown in. I'm someone who had Savage prospects, and I still disliked capping Astronomy every week.

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That's my point, really. If you go for a higher item level or tune it to a higher item level then you really start making it a whole lot more unfriendly for the people with which the content was designed around. I don't think they need to tune to a higher item level, versus introducing a more stringent sync on it. As it stands all alliance raids with sync at the cap for this expansion, not for the current tier. Personally, I would sync it around 575. Content shouldn't be designed around the expectancy that people can just buy from the market.

But then if I were to be the elephant in the room, or to spit on peoples' cornflakes, then I would argue this whole thread would turn to "But I have nothing to do with my gear!!"

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

(Yes, we have ilevel sync. Ask the Labyrinth of the Ancients or Syrcus Tower how well that works consistently to maintain the challenge level. Has anyone actually seen the platform mechanics in Glasya Labolas in, say, the current geological era?)

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You beat me to it >.< I haven't played the newest raid series yet, but many things have lost their mechanics because of this. I looked up all of them to see how the raid was, and gosh it has so many I never seen. The only time I seen Xande go crazy was during a run my parents did where they almost wiped because the glowing yellow circles everyone usually goes into kept showing up at least 5 times and many people were new and there were not enough people in the circles. There are some other times that people have wiped but it never takes long enough to see any of the cool mechanics. I tried not to go into many trials synced when I first started out because you don't get to see all of the mechanics most of the time and I wanted to learn them.

Susano can get spicy and you can see (at least I think you can see all of his mechanics), but Thordan you have to actively try to die to him, but something like Nidhogg is a step up in difficulty. I really don't know with this game sometimes. One moment you are passing out at your computer and the next they give you a fight with mechanics and you have to pay attention your first time through. Going from Ruby Weapon to Emerald Weapon to Diamond Weapon went from really cool mid challenging new mechanics, to easily telegraphed mechanics that went kind of slow, to difficulty that was really decent, but going from one to the other it felt the difficulty was kind of all over the place so when you are finally awake you are extremely not prepared.

It is similar with some of the dungeons they reworked, haukke manor is a snooze but does teach some mechanics, so is brayflox, but copperbell is fun enough you don't fall asleep and the new msq stuffs is fun. It is kind of all over, it could be gear and a mix of that and different fight designers as well. It will make me sad as it always does if the new raid I get in my first time and things die in seconds and I never see all the cool mechanics. I can't just undersize and try it I would have to put up a min ilvl party finder just to see the mechanics. I don't want it to be extremely hard of course but I don't want to miss out on mechanics because people are blasting through just pushing their buttons normally until the one day I need to learn the ones that never show up because I got one of those teams I get trolling in lota.

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Originally Posted by DuskTS

I don't get this forum obsession with turning every content into savage.
Just go play Elden Ring if you want to stress your hair out over pixels.
If you don't find FFXIV engaging enough go do Ultimate like Yoshi-P says.

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why is this comment getting so much likes?
For real. Its not about obsession its just... whats the point? Yeah there is savage and ultimate but PERSONALLY i dont find them enganging as i do with ALLIANCE of 24 people.
Having plenty of people feel "safe" as player wont be the only one dying and meeting new people on a DIFFERENT atmosphere thru DUTY FINDER. We dont ask for more.

I mean its okay to be casual??? but majority on people who liked ur post are probably "easy mode-casual" which is even worse. Play kirby then?????????

"jUsT gO pLay ElDen RiNg" gosh ur not entitled to tell people what to play and thats ironic

I think the mechanics are fine. At least they arent like the Eden Raid mechanics where you literally need to know what the boss is gonna cast because it gives you no reaction time once the aoe shows on the field.

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Originally Posted by Johaandr

why is this comment getting so much likes?
For real. Its not about obsession its just... whats the point? Yeah there is savage and ultimate but PERSONALLY i dont find them enganging as i do with ALLIANCE of 24 people.
Having plenty of people feel "safe" as player wont be the only one dying and meeting new people on a DIFFERENT atmosphere thru DUTY FINDER. We dont ask for more.

I mean its okay to be casual??? but majority on people who liked ur post are probably "easy mode-casual" which is even worse. Play kirby then?????????

"jUsT gO pLay ElDen RiNg" gosh ur not entitled to tell people what to play and thats ironic

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I think it’s because people keep reading it and hitting the orange like button at the bottom right of it. Just a guess though. In all honesty a lot of people died in Aglaia when it launched. But people running it now have it memorized to the point they could beat it without looking. Farming for glam and upgrade materials.

If you put a group of noobs there it would be a massacre, but due to a shift in mechanics that punish you personally and not the entire raid they’d probably clear after an hour or two.

It’s not the hardest raid but it’s not the easiest either. Orbonne Monastery was an easy clear when people had it on farm mode too. Then everyone forgot. And then it got nerfed.

Would like HW difficulties and the likes to them, it is what made it all interesting... or like some of the SB ones..Math Boss was fun... and Thundergod as well... or the second Nier Raid?

The drop in difficulty for the mainstream stuff is starting to show it's ugly face... and it is making me fall asleep during the battles in the Aglaia.... as in bored to death.

I hope they focus up on this stuff, and make it more entertaining in the future.

the mechanics are too slow and way too easy

well you have troll posts like "the dead end is too difficult" so maybe the dev take these opinions and tune down the difficult again

pretty sad as i miss orbonne level difficulty for alliance raids

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Originally Posted by Bookie

the mechanics are too slow and way too easy

well you have troll posts like "the dead end is too difficult" so maybe the dev take these opinions and tune down the difficult again

pretty sad as i miss orbonne level difficulty for alliance raids

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I know that a lot of people hate the idea of bosses being damage sponges, but...I do feel that the bosses in Aglaia kinda need to be. We outgeared them before the patch went live and they die extremely fast. The current HP levels are unacceptable and do very little to future proof these raids. We're about to have another CT on our hands.

I'm of the opinion that Agalaia is tuned "just right" currently, and the reason I say that is because, well... no matter how geared or skilled your group is, all the Nier raids are 40-50 minute slogs because the bosses just have too much health, and even after getting heavily nerfed, Thunder God Cid is still fully capable of causing vote abandons if you get too many people in there who are bad or not trying. And nobody wants to run into either of those situations while doing their daily roulette. It says a lot that if you get Tower at Paradigm's Breach as your roulette for the day, odds are good that you'll get your roulette bonus sooner if you drop group, take the 30 minute penalty, requeue while gear cheesing, get Circus Tower, and run Circus Tower, than if you just run Paradigm's Breach.

That's the exact situation that I bet Squeenix is trying to prevent with these new Alliance raids. Back before Ivalice was required for the ShB relics, you'd have people queuing for Orbonne for story purposes and sitting there forever, only for half the group to drop upon loading in because they were all expecting to slog through the first two bosses and associated trash fights over the course of 40 minutes or so, then wipe to Cid for another 20 and disband. New players could not finish the Ivalice questline because there were too few people willing to even attempt to run that instance to completion.

So I'm pretty sure they're just pre-nerfing things now. And quite frankly, I think that's a good thing, because the last thing I want when 6.5 drops and it takes 3 coins to buy one upgrade token, is for earning those coins to take 2+ hours each week the way it did in Stormblood and Shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

This game has no midcore. Content is either mechanically complex, or so forgiving you could practically sleep through it. This state of affairs is not least helped because the community dramatically flings itself at its fainting couch declaring everyone a "try-hard savage ultimate difficulty chaser" if they dare ask for a setting on the dial between "grudgingly will prevent you from succeeding if an alliance or two is dead and you have 5 vulnerability stacks" and "will make you restart if one person is standing outside the ten pixel safe zone".

Most of this community has an incredibly skewed definition of difficulty when they think any upward tuning of Alliance raids would make them "savage Elden Ring stressful".

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This is exactly what it is... Lack of midcore content - which also treads in harder 4-man updated content as well.

I wonder if Alliance Raids had a 12 people Savage mode. 3 Light parties, that is ought to be easier to assemble than full 24 mans.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

This is exactly what it is... Lack of midcore content - which also treads in harder 4-man updated content as well.

I wonder if Alliance Raids had a 12 people Savage mode. 3 Light parties, that is ought to be easier to assemble than full 24 mans.

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Castrum Lacus Litore was perfect mid core content on release and everyone hated it. I thought it was super fun personally.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

[*]Boss HP is low...

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I think this PARTICULAR point was them taking on feedback after the NeiR raids. One of the complaints about the NieR raids - exactly opposing yours here - was that the bosses were massive HP sponges so that doing any of the raids unless you had 24 people in Savage BiS gear took forever. Aglaia probably takes about 2/3rds the time of a comparable run of any of the NeiR raids if we use equivalent gear of characters at that time compared to characters in that same functional scaled up gear (e.g. comparing all Eden normal gear to all Pande normal gear or comparing all BiS then to all BiS now, etc) This is by design, I think, since people DID complain about that.

It is yet another case of "there are two groups of people that play, and each complains past each other about opposite things.

Note I'm making no judgement call about that, just drawing attention to the fact.

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[*]Mechanics come out extremely slowly and one at a time...

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Again, I think this was partly in reaction to the NeiR raids where that wasn't always the case.

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[*]With the exception of certain one-shot mechanics like stuff that knocks you off the platform, almost all mechanics in the raid are very survivable if you fail them. Many can be ignored if you don't know how to resolve them as they don't do threatening damage.

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What? There are actually quite a few mechanics that will either one-shot or two-shot players if you eat them. That aside, and no, I'm not being a "blah blah try-hard savage!" here, non-Savage content generally doesn't - and generally SHOULDN'T - feature one-shot mechanics. I'm not sure why anyone would think that it SHOULD. Even Delubrium mechanics gave you two strikes. And normal DR could be considered "mid-core" 24-man content.

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[*]There are almost no mechanics which require group coordination/performance, almost all are individual responsibility...

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Again, this isn't a savage raid. I'm trying to think of any 24 man group coordination mechanics from past raids. All I can think of other than "4 players in each Alliance stand on a platform" Atamos fights is maybe TG Cid from Orbonne? Again, this isn't Savage content and isn't trying to be.

I DO think it would be cool to see Extreme/mid-core versions of 24 mans, something like Delubrium level of difficulty, but I'm not sure how many people would actually run that content nor what it would drop to make it worthwhile to people TO run, in order to justify the additional development resources.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

It's a valid criticism considering the developers probably poured a ton of resources into something many players will only run 2-3 times for the coin, then ignore. Alliance raids very quickly become your 30 minute weekly chore.

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I understand your concern, but I think you're thinking about this entirely wrong.

24 mans are NOT for Savage raiders to farm coins. If you're a Savage raider, you probably have better gear than the 24 mans when they come out and you can get the upgrade tokens without needing to go into the 24 mans.

The 24 mans are for casual players. People that might do an Extreme here or there and MAYBE clear the first boss or two of Savage, but probably not. These people run this content over and over. As a person who didn't get a Savage clear until 2 months ago (I've been playing since 2013 but just finally decided to try Savage when some friends convinced me P1S is comparable in difficulty to HydEx, which I was farming for weapons at the time, and that I should really try it), 24 mans were how I geared my alts. I've always been a healer main, so I'd get tome gear (when I first learned how that actually worked in...I'm gonna say SB - I was hypercasual in ARR and HW but also in the military so had far less time; I still was in SB, but was much more stable and not having to learn/qualify as much so had a bit more time, and by ShB I was transitioning out) for my healer, but then use 24 mans for farming my alt DPS/Tank sets and getting the upgrade item for my healer main gear.

That's what 24 mans are for. I ran the 24 mans weekly consistently for months, and generally enjoyed all of them.

The 24 mans are for casuals to gear and get a big group experience and the spectacle that brings, I think.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, as I've just started doing Savages, but P1S and P2S drop the upgrade items AND loot coffers that give ilevel gear equivalent to Augmented Radiant. If you've been running Savage weekly since January, I can't imagine you still have a lot of need of the coins or stuff. And hell, as a frequent hunt train participant, I'm also more than able to get a steady stream of upgrade mats from nuts/hunt currency. I'm mainly using the weekly 24 man to gear out my DPS alt, fill in my tank alt holes, and get some coins to save me from having to do QUITE as many hunt trains.

And a lot of casuals don't do hunt trains!

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So I think you VASTLY overestimate how many people do these raids just 1-3 times.

And by the end of the expansion where we have to run raid 1, 2, and 3 once per week (that's around 3 hour of run time for NieR raids, and at about 30 mins for Aglaia, would be an hour and a half to two hours for all three of these), there's a point where being able to clear them relatively quickly isn't a downside, even for Savage raiders looking for a few more tokens come 5.5.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I know from experience casuals run these once a week religiously for their duration. It's the Savage raiders that only run them a handful of times each patch for tokens then stop until two patches later. So given that, who should they be tuned to? Orbonne wasn't so bad until the Savage raiders completed gearing up and stopped running it, then it was murder because there were few people running it that could carry/drag their casual minions through to the loot boxes at the end.

The only thing I would like to be changed is the 1st boss when he places the hammer on ground and have to figure out the safe spot.

It takes forever to trigger that attack compared to his other moves

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I know that a lot of people hate the idea of bosses being damage sponges, but...I do feel that the bosses in Aglaia kinda need to be. We outgeared them before the patch went live and they die extremely fast. The current HP levels are unacceptable and do very little to future proof these raids. We're about to have another CT on our hands.

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It does nothing to future proof the content? I'd argue the opposite. There's a reason folks take gear off to get ARR raids. Longer raids ain't worth it to most. I think Aglaia being a nice in between is perfect for future proofing

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

It does nothing to future proof the content? I'd argue the opposite. There's a reason folks take gear off to get ARR raids. Longer raids ain't worth it to most. I think Aglaia being a nice in between is perfect for future proofing

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And there's also a reason you see people endlessly complaining about always getting CT when they use the roulette.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

And there's also a reason you see people endlessly complaining about always getting CT when they use the roulette.

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Not exactly sure if that's a counter point or...?

To the people complaining. Id say do this raid by the end of the week when only the casuals and low 570 geared people are doing this raid. You'll have your difficulty ramped up.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

It does nothing to future proof the content? I'd argue the opposite. There's a reason folks take gear off to get ARR raids. Longer raids ain't worth it to most. I think Aglaia being a nice in between is perfect for future proofing

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That's a problem with CT, not the others. CT should be reworked so it's just as long and complicated as the others.

I don't know, to me it doesn't seem that bad.
Sure there are no wipes, but people still die like flies, especially at Nald'Thal most people still die from the either/or mechanics.
Sure Rabanastre was harsher but Ivalice raids are famous for that. Nier raids had even less deaths than the current ones past the first few weeks, and certainly no wipes. The only difference maybe is that current bosses are not HP sponges, which is a good thing imho, fights taking forever doesn't make them more challenging or fun, just more of a slog. Labyrinth also didn't have wipes, even on week 1, while still having a lot of fun and challenging mechanics. And hell, we could say Copied was deathly but then Puppet was an absolute joke where people could just laugh at you for dying at all and you'd have fun trying to collect the most vuln stacks you could during the balls tunnel.

Honestly I think people overplay how hard old raids were. They become harder later on, cause people aren't used to them anymore, but when people are running them regularly, especially when people are overgeared, they do tend to be fast and don like clockwork. The only one is Rhalgr, he's pretty easy and slow with mechs.Even though people keep falling off the cliff. And Byregot could use some upping too, but then you see half of the alliance die to the ray so uh....

the only wipes i ever had in aglaia were to the scale mechanic. on day 1 once and im week 2 or 3. i've never seen a wipe to any other mechanics in there. amd the days i go in tjere range from tuesday to monday.
yeah sure on day one there were many deaths overall. but now i only see a few single deaths. like once or twice as a premade, most of the times completely random.
i love the raid so much its fun to do, but it wont stand the proof of time. with 660 gear in 6.5 it will become ridiculous.

one problem is how they do mechanics. bosses do one simple mechanic, then another one. in obvious ways to show how the mechanics work. after that a third one and then they may combine them in different ways or add a random factor or other elements. while that is great for first timers tjis whole build up takes way too long. bosses are dead before they bevome serious

>Undertuned
>Complains when Orbonne overtuned with result of Orbonne get nerfed

Keep complaining :)

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

>Undertuned
>Complains when Orbonne overtuned with result of Orbonne get nerfed

Keep complaining :)

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i wann have the old cid back. he was so much more fun pre-nerf