Bring Back Kaiten

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

It really is at the point where kenki is so damn shallow it might actually just be better to remove that busywork of a bar entirely and wait for something better to turn up in 8.0 or whatever, huh.

Or are all the apologists still 100% convinced 7.0 will magically turn around every baffling design decision around and that by 7.1 we won't be having the exact same deflection argument that the it's the next expansion that will perfect everything?

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I'm just waiting for what they'll say about 6.2

It'll inform me if the time I spent coming to the forum mattered at all or not.

I'm hoping by then I'll have leveled something else in the melee category that isn't a tank so I can still queue as not a tank for roulettes. Sometimes I just want to go in and spam some buttons without watching my hp drop from the wall to walls.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

It really is at the point where kenki is so damn shallow it might actually just be better to remove that busywork of a bar entirely and wait for something better to turn up in 8.0 or whatever, huh.

Or are all the apologists still 100% convinced 7.0 will magically turn around every baffling design decision around and that by 7.1 we won't be having the exact same deflection argument that the it's the next expansion that will perfect everything?

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removing Kenki entirely? huh.. well for my point of view the 6.1 changes mostly crippled Samurai's Identity for no good reason outside of "here have guaranteed crit on your burst", I'd it would be a waste of Good Job Design if they brutally change Samurai like that.. In otherwords it would be a shame if they just batter the entire Gameplay because of 6.1...

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

removing Kenki entirely? huh.. well for my point of view the 6.1 changes mostly crippled Samurai's Identity for no good reason outside of "here have guaranteed crit on your burst", I'd it would be a waste of Good Job Design if they brutally change Samurai like that.. In otherwords it would be a shame if they just batter the entire Gameplay because of 6.1...

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Agreed. Kenki was among the best designed resources up until 6.0

It was fine if not a bit oversimplified, but it still interacted with most of the toolkit that SAM had at its disposal. Removing a piece of it has impacted it significantly to the point of being irrelevant and they should put back what they removed.

The same would have happened if they decided to remove shinten and kyuten, as well. While filler, it's still a piece of the gauge that has purpose. Without both to balance the resource, it just becomes pointless spam. And I don't think we need to be reminded about healer gameplay when talking about pointless, repetitive spam.

#BringBackKaiten

I think it was Matt from Bellular who made a video about how Jobs in XIV have a rhythm to them, and that's what makes them fun. Removing Kaiten doesn't have SAM play the same song anymore. Worse even, it's not a new song, it's a cacophony.
At the end of said video he said he finally understood, after doing his thinking and making the video, why SAMs were so pissed.

Mostly agree on your latest list but there are some points I partially or fully disagree on:

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

Merging Hissatsu: Senei with Hissatsu: Guren and Shoha with Mumyo Shoha would transform the Samurai into a Dragoon with Circle Geirskogul and Circle Nastrond and would betray the Fantasy Samurai is supposed to fulfill: A controlled High Burst Damage Dealer.

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I don't think merging Senei back into Guren makes it more like Dragoon. The skill is still fundamentally different from Geirskogul because it's a gauge spender rather than a phase changer that further enables the next skills in your rotation. When Guren was first implemented it was at the same time as Samurai as a whole. This skill started out as a gigantic 50 Kenki spender that you use in all situations, and was your ultimate level 70 skill. It has since been relegated to dungeon packs and the odd multi target boss. Merging Senei's potency into Guren for the main target and then keeping the AoE potency for remaining targets would only restore it to its former glory in my opinion. It would also fix the issue wherein you get scaled down to any level 70 content and then Guren should now be in the skill slot that Senei now occupies. I've always found Senei to be a strange skill in terms of hotbar management as well as aesthetically; If you use any katana with a weird sheath design like the Omega katana, or no sheath at all like the Bokuto, the animation is very awkward.

Fully agree that both versions of Shoha should be preserved however. The idea I posted in my own thread to reduce bloat was to have these skills temporarily replace Shinten and Kyuten respectively as soon as your Meditation gauge fills, then also make them 25 Kenki spenders with a combined potency from both gauge mechanics. This would give them damage that is actually fitting for these very elaborate animations, enhancing SAM's identity for high burst damage.

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In my Opinion: Positionals are restrictive since they seem to put an unnecessary risk on the Player and waste serverspace through added calculations

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The server and client already have to do work to calculate your position vs the mob's position, as well as which way both are facing, so the extra calculation needed to turn this into a job mechanic is negligible because it's just using data that is already being dealt with constantly.

In terms of personal preference... on one hand I enjoyed the more strict positionals needed to maintain a proper flow of Kenki, so you don't have to do extra math later. On the other hand, I can't count the number of times I've seen people claim that SAM has no positionals, so instances of this happening have been greatly reduced.

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if none of those suggestions suit the design philosophy, I plea to at least reduce the Kenki-Cost of Shinten and Kyuten, sitting on 20 Kenki with no option feels horrible!

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Still a hard disagree here, unless they reduce Kenki generation significantly. I think it's vital that we first get 6.08 SAM's gameplay flow back even if they are adamant about keeping things like potency and critical changes, then further adjustments can be considered again.

I understand that seeing the 20 Kenki with nothing to do is a harsh reminder of Kaiten, but at the same time I have been so disgusted with the state of SAM that I haven't touched it since April. Aside from simply not having any fun with the job, I want to avoid boosting any SAM playtime metrics that SE collects.

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Originally Posted by Katsuragi_

I think it was Matt from Bellular who made a video about how Jobs in XIV have a rhythm to them, and that's what makes them fun. Removing Kaiten doesn't have SAM play the same song anymore. Worse even, it's not a new song, it's a cacophony.
At the end of said video he said he finally understood, after doing his thinking and making the video, why SAMs were so pissed.

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Can you share the link to this video please?

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

Fair enough, although enpi is very rarely useful so it's really a nice scenario. But yeah might as well keep that.

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If you play 2.07 SKS SAM you will have to Yaten+Enpi to fit in one filler GCD on your even minute rotation (i.e. burst windows in which you use Ogi) and 3 filler GCDs after your odd minute burst in order to keep Tsubame in sync for those burst windows.

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Originally Posted by AsiTsurugi

Can you share the link to this video please?

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Think they mean this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jK34Fs_ce0

Bumping because it's really this simple. Revert SAM to 6.08

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Originally Posted by Flashy

Bumping because it's really this simple. Revert SAM to 6.08

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Better not at all,

May as well compensate the rest of the job’s reverted abilities likewise if such was the case as it’ll further feed the flames in response to such that would have others react as to why didn’t the other jobs get reworked likewise?

Only time will tell -sips Ishgardian Wine-

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Originally Posted by Vencio

Better not at all,

May as well compensate the rest of the job’s reverted abilities likewise if such was the case as it’ll further feed the flames in response to such that would have others react as to why didn’t the other jobs get reworked likewise?

Only time will tell -sips Ishgardian Wine-

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Ain't nothing wrong with asking for our job to be fixed. They asked us to try it out and offer our thoughts. Thoughts have been given. Opinions have been formed. Suggestions have been made.

And they've already done similar in the past. That demand for a reversion has been answered positively in the past just regarding SAM, so there is precedence.

Waiting for SE's new Excuse " Crit/Direct-Hit " adjustments to justify Kaiten removal, which it won't...

Kaiten-Execution translates to more damage vs Miss-Execution, equals Fun because we're allowed to mess up and doing it right for a long period of time is satisfying. Showcasing that you mastered a nuance of a Job, amidst executing everything else correctly.

Trying to convince lazy players of this who

• Don't even play our Job frequently
• Don't even know what our skills do
• Don't lift a finger to master a Job
• Don't do high-end content to push a Job to it's limits
• Support simplifications while never being happy to it being simple enough

Will never be challenged to worry about messing up Job basics. Nor every incremental nuances of skill expression we would enjoy because Damage performance means nothing to them. Kaiten included. And the easier it is to do damage to these lazy players the better.

Ergo, lax attitude with the desire to support any simplification possible because they do not desire to put effort into learning, improving, even reading tooltips is a burden to heavy.


Why learn anything about PvE combat?

• Positionals
• Uptime
• Kaiten
• Raidbuff Alignment
• Slide Casting Iaijutsu
• Mechanics
• Snapshots

All meaningless to players who would rather have it all be simplified. And there's no line to be draw either on how simple u want it to the point we are left with 1/2 button gameplay to please the unpleasable masses endlessly demanding more simplifications beyond even that.

Thus, why do people support simplifications like Kaiten removal? I think it's jealousy... That even after these changes to simplify Samurai? these lazy players cannot outperform nor can they find the effort to improve vs how they see other players who do put in effort joyfully. Very " limiting " mindset.

Ironic, since the Endwalker story is about making us strive and yet we have players who want simplifications doing the opposite =u=;

Then again you can't tell how another should play, even if its by design how Square intended it. So they can complain about more simplifications because their poor arms couldn't reach the bar SE set for them to begin with.

I want Kaiten back
Just gotta accept that you'll have players who will support simplifications that will never be pleased no matter how more simple it gets, beyond their pacifier sucking mouths from knowingly or unknowingly sucking that hard at a game.

PS: If you feel spoken to as a lazy player who can't reach the bar? even at Kaiten execution? that's on you <3

Celesti you've had enough of this bs huh LUL. That last sentence had me dyin laughing

The Samurai is decidedly too simple now. If I play my Ninja, she's all over the place, I'm yelling at myself for getting something wrong, looking up guides to see what I've done wrong now. If I play the Samurai, I'm watching another screen or chatting. Honestly. There are jobs I'd prefer with a *little* more complexity. (machinist, dancer, healers with a bit more damage options) - but there are reasons for those to be less complicated. I get that. Machinist is nice for learning fights. (Ok, healers need a bit more in the dps dept) But not Samurai.

What bothers me most, still, is that it seemed like an almost perfect class, in a really good place at the start of EW. A few buttons might have been combined. THIS is just - wrong.

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Originally Posted by Ceridwen

The Samurai is decidedly too simple now. If I play my Ninja, she's all over the place, I'm yelling at myself for getting something wrong, looking up guides to see what I've done wrong now. If I play the Samurai, I'm watching another screen or chatting. Honestly. There are jobs I'd prefer with a *little* more complexity. (machinist, dancer, healers with a bit more damage options) - but there are reasons for those to be less complicated. I get that. Machinist is nice for learning fights. (Ok, healers need a bit more in the dps dept) But not Samurai.

What bothers me most, still, is that it seemed like an almost perfect class, in a really good place at the start of EW. A few buttons might have been combined. THIS is just - wrong.

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I thought so too. I miss Seigan even though the current Third Eye is much stronger, the option of higanbana/midare opener, but I thought it was a direct upgrade/QoL from ShB since we just got Ogi Namikiri and charges added to our Tsubame/Meikyo, and changes to how our buffs are applied

I hate that we have to wait 4 months for answers on why they did all of this ( who knows if they even address it)

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Originally Posted by Ceridwen

The Samurai is decidedly too simple now. If I play my Ninja, she's all over the place, I'm yelling at myself for getting something wrong, looking up guides to see what I've done wrong now. If I play the Samurai, I'm watching another screen or chatting. Honestly. There are jobs I'd prefer with a *little* more complexity. (machinist, dancer, healers with a bit more damage options) - but there are reasons for those to be less complicated. I get that. Machinist is nice for learning fights. (Ok, healers need a bit more in the dps dept) But not Samurai.

What bothers me most, still, is that it seemed like an almost perfect class, in a really good place at the start of EW. A few buttons might have been combined. THIS is just - wrong.

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Exactly. But I guess that's also why they're looking to rework certain jobs. Because it was in such a good spot, they couldn't meaningfully innovate, so to 'fix' that and give us more, they had to destroy what was there. DRG is getting that exact treatment, it would seem, but they were sensible enough to wait until the next xpac now.

I hope SAM gets reverted and they can give us more of what was removed. Seigan and cone Goken. Put Senei and Guren as situational procs to go over Shinten and Kyuten, or merge them since they share a cooldown. They trim down the amount of buttons that need to be mapped and they'll find they have room for more abilities.

Here's hoping they show they listen in the next live letter

And if I'm being honest, Namikiri feels like a wrench thrown in there just because.

I'm pretty sure we all loved Kaiten -> Setsugekka being the climax of the rotation. (I personally already didn't care much about capping it off with Kaeshi, but it was whatever)

As stated before, the job was near-perfect. Why destroy that?

yes please. bring kaiten back

no kaiten is fucking huge as a change. I'm suprised they would ever remove that cool factor of prepping your midare plus mechanic reversal of literally never pressing a charge up of swinging your sword to being charged after swinging. it's literally backwards now.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Ain't nothing wrong with asking for our job to be fixed. They asked us to try it out and offer our thoughts. Thoughts have been given. Opinions have been formed. Suggestions have been made.

And they've already done similar in the past. That demand for a reversion has been answered positively in the past just regarding SAM, so there is precedence.

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You really just have to ignore the roleplaying troll at this point. His song and dance got old a long time ago and he'll keep doing it as long as he keeps getting fed. He's been smacked down plenty of times by different people but he's either too stupid or that much of a troll because his post keep showing up when they're unwanted.

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

You really just have to ignore the roleplaying troll at this point. His song and dance got old a long time ago and he'll keep doing it as long as he keeps getting fed. He's been smacked down plenty of times by different people but he's either too stupid or that much of a troll because his post keep showing up when they're unwanted.

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Well, unlike most, I'm not dousing his flame with oil. And while I understand what you're saying, not addressing it also does not change it.

I think it's Good to share my well now month old discoveries about How Kaiten impacted the Samurai and How it's removal cripples the feel of the entire Job:

• The Kaiten Removal made the Kenki (as Damage Boosting Resource) Meaningless
• With 6.1 Kenki's purpose is to provide Energy for Filler Attacks attacks and 2 Minute Busters
• With 6.1 There is no Thought Process/Planning anymore to restrain yourself to boost the upcoming Iaijutsu to maximize damage
• since Single Target is the most popular Situation in FFXIV the Samurai with 6.1 boils down to spamming Shinten (which doesn't feel as satisfying as to boost up your Next Damage Buster though Resource Management)
  
• Hagakure also came back in 5.1 and there was no backlash for it's removal

The Solutions, I see:

• Of course the easiest thing (In terms of planning to "fix" Samurai's state of 6.1) would be to revert the Samurai to the state of 6.08, bringing back Kaiten and Cone Tenka Goken! (but keeping 6.1 Enpi and 6.1 Third Eye)
• If the Auto-Crit thing will stay then Bring Back Kaiten, but make the following Weaponskill do Direct Hit, thus rewarding Kenki Management with Direct Crit Damage
• If they won't listen.. maybe we have to go into Game Developement ourselves, creating a Tabtarget RPG to recreate the Kaiten Samurai Playstyle, I'm not so keen if SE has the Samurai (in general copyrighted, but I doubt it), the Crossbar Control Scheme to my Knowledge isn't copyrighted by SE so other Companies could use it to port their MMOs to Consoles

Additional: I do not want to think that their silence regarding our complaints is to ignore us, they were also silent between the closure of 1.0 and the Launch of ARR and we all know how that went.

I still loathe to sit on 20 Kenki with no option to spend it and alongside of that I have to be clear, I want the devs to Bring Back Kaiten!

• 5.0
• The Removal of Ageha, an additional sub20% Execution Attack. removed alongside all other Execution Attacks except Ninja's Assassinate* (presumably because it's too iconic of a Skill/Animation to Ninja.. just like Kaiten to Samurai!)
  * Assassinate became a 1minute cool down later
• The Removal of Hagakure
  5.1
• The Return of Hagakure (with a way shorter cool down)
• Meditation Stack Generation through Iaijutsu, turning Shoha into a way more active skill as it was in 5.0
  6.0
• The Simplification of Third Eye rewarding correct execution with 10 Kenki, Simplifyed yet still rewarding!
• Removal of Tsubamegaeshi Meditation Stack Contribution, reducing Tsubamegaeshi to a free Iaijutsu Spam
• Change to Ikishoten acting as an Ogi Trigger for Ogi Namikiri
  6.1
• The Removal of Cone Tenka Goken for Circle Tenka Goken
• The Removal of Kaiten, fundamentally destroyed the Identity of the Samurai as a Big Buster Damage Dealer for a Spam for Damage, which only validation is the amount of attacks, not through thoughtful Resource Management

My Point with this list is that we had a lot of Changes that we accepted with Samurai but the Kaiten Removal is too much, even ideologicly.

The Lie of the Devs

• I think it's thoroughly disgusting that they state Button Bloat but then "only" removed one Button.. and it happened to be the most import to the Samurai's Identity in FFXIV, that's just great
• In addition: A Lie wouldn't be harmful if no one believes it, yet sadly there are Believers on bothsides
• To clarify!: Merging Guren with Senei and Shoha with Mumyo Shoha, only turns the Samurai into a Dragoon, that's not a solution to aim for!
• My Counterpoint to dismiss "Button Bloat" as a lie is simple: No One had any Problem with Samurai in 6.08

My Suspicions for the Future of Samurai:

• if they stick with the Kaiten Removal, Kenki will face a rework because even the devs may notice Kenki's Uselessness (which was caused by the Kaiten Removal)
• maybe they give us Meditation Stacks on lvl52, it's bonus attacks for every Third Iaijutsu
• though I have No Idea how they gonna rework Kenki.. I have the feeling that it won't be better than Kenki Management through Kaiten

Why do I feel that a Kenki Rework won't feel good? Because Kaiten worked, it was a Good Skill to learn and to teach the Priorities of the Samurai, thus creating the Samurai's Identity. The List of Changes so far shows that we stood up with a lot of changes but the Kaiten Removal, which made way to monotonous spam, which I thoroughly oppose. but if we gonna eat the Button Bloat argument.. just put Tsubamegaeshi on Iaijutsu, just like Ogi Namikiri.

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

[*]Hagakure also came back in 5.1 and there was no backlash for it's removal

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I beg to differ, I was extremely annoyed that hagakure was taken away and then returned in an awful state. I can accept hagakure as it is now, 10 kenki per Sen being a fine middle ground considering how short the cooldown is. But yeah, that was horrible and I can't believe they had done that just to stop the shinten spam of stormblood. Seriously, I enjoyed using that when I needed to correct myself or when I needed to hold off on using a midare for the sake of any buffs but didn't want to overlap any tokens I'd earned through my combo.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

I beg to differ, I was extremely annoyed that hagakure was taken away and then returned in an awful state. I can accept hagakure as it is now, 10 kenki per Sen being a fine middle ground considering how short the cooldown is. But yeah, that was horrible and I can't believe they had done that just to stop the shinten spam of stormblood. Seriously, I enjoyed using that when I needed to correct myself or when I needed to hold off on using a midare for the sake of any buffs but didn't want to overlap any tokens I'd earned through my combo.

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Oh there are you^^ to be honest, I never really liked Hagakure, for me it felt aweful to pass on a Midare for more Kenki, so I didn't mind it as much when it was gone/ replaced with Ikishoten, but was confused when it returned.. With that said!!
I learned to appreciate Hagakure in late Shadowbringers and 6.0 in my AoE Interface^^ Anyway it's good to have different opinions everyonce in a while^^

though! I like how you can line up Ikishoten with Guren or Senei, that's still good^^

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

Oh there are you^^ to be honest, I never really liked Hagakure, for me it felt aweful to pass on a Midare for more Kenki, so I didn't mind it as much when it was gone/ replaced with Ikishoten, but was confused when it returned.. With that said!!
I learned to appreciate Hagakure in late Shadowbringers and 6.0 in my AoE Interface^^ Anyway it's good to have different opinions everyonce in a while^^

though! I like how you can line up Ikishoten with Guren or Senei, that's still good^^

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I typically use Hagakure between pulls since building Sen in aoe is super quick. Even during stormblood I would do that from time to time. But I never really learned the haga-shinten spam combo like everyone told me to do. It wasn't fun and felt clunky as hell.

And the fact that Ikishoten lines up perfectly with senei snd guren is a reason why folks keep suggesting they make it a morphing ability like with WAR Infuriate. It lessens the likelihood of not lining them up properly and frees up space on the bar if anyone still thinks that's an issue.

At 6.08 there was no problem with SAM regarding buttons on the bar. But that doesn't mean there aren't ways to clean it up without pruning skills off the kit. I stand by the idea of transforming the filler abilities into the busters by certain effects.

so that Live Letter was yesterday and I'm satisfied that more people coming out wanting Kaiten back!
the Crit/Direct Hit Changes on the otherhand do effectively nothing to address How Braindead Samurai plays right now, because Kenki Management remains Dead and yeah there also were Vocal Nay-sayers but seriously those do not play Samurai or are already tunnelled into Braindeath because they pressed Shinten too much, which is why I want Kaiten Back as well.

Kaiten is more than just a fancy animation, it's the autonomy given to the Player to improve their performance on their own, the additional damage is just the reward for Good Resource Management.

at least it used to be, now Samurai is corroded by sameness.. Tenka Goken got worse, Iaijutsu doesn't change beyond lvl50 and Tsubamegaeshi still takes up a seperate Button! There is no Mastery to Samurai anymore and that's what pisses me off!

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

I typically use Hagakure between pulls since building Sen in aoe is super quick. Even during stormblood I would do that from time to time. But I never really learned the haga-shinten spam combo like everyone told me to do. It wasn't fun and felt clunky as hell.

And the fact that Ikishoten lines up perfectly with senei snd guren is a reason why folks keep suggesting they make it a morphing ability like with WAR Infuriate. It lessens the likelihood of not lining them up properly and frees up space on the bar if anyone still thinks that's an issue.

At 6.08 there was no problem with SAM regarding buttons on the bar. But that doesn't mean there aren't ways to clean it up without pruning skills off the kit. I stand by the idea of transforming the filler abilities into the busters by certain effects.

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I'm not a fan of turning Skills into stuff from other jobs, then we could just play that other job instead, which is why I wanna keep Senei,Guren and Shoha,Mumyo Shoha seperate, because if they merge those the Senei/Guren would just turn into Geirskogul and the Shoha/Mumyo Shoha would turn into Circle Nastrond.. and Samurai as it is right now has too much Circle AoEs already.. but Kenki is in a questionable state right now, so in a headless way I can see them ditching Kenki, and Ikishoten becomes a Trigger for Senei and Guren Ready, which may one button combo into Ogi Finishers, yes One Button Combo like Gunbreaker and Paladin! Because they said it would be boring to have one button combos and they do it anyway, aswell as saying that it would be boring if everything Burst may turned into a 2minute cool down, yet here we are.

Screw it i'll say it too. Give back Kaiten Squere.
Merge Shohas and Guren with Senei instead, you could also remove Hagakure as last resort, thats where your real button bloat is...
I played samurai during SHB casualy and enjoyed it, farmed every dragon mount in extremes on SAM, never went super hard on optimalization but sam felt very satisfing to play, then Endwalker came and in 6.0 i loved it to the point where i was considering to main it thru out the expansion.
And here comes Squere and in their infinite wisdom ruin the whole job in one precise pointless cut, defending their action with "cutting down the button bloat". Samurai is so bland now i dont even want to touch it, guess i'll just delete the gear set just as i did with summoner.

again.. Merging Shohas and Senei with Guren would turn the Samurai into a Dragoon (since Geirskogul and Nastrond works just like that, but line AoE.. I do not want the Samurai to become a Circle AoE Version of the Dragoon), my Solution would be to roll up Tsubamegaeshi to Iaijutsu, just like it is with Ogi Namikiri and Kaeshi Namikiri
though it's true Kaiten has to return!
I'm on the brink to bring back Kaiten myself!

日本語:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...050d329a5c.png
English:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...Kaiten_eng.png
Deutsch:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...Kaiten_ger.png
Français:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen.../Kaiten_fr.png

as you see this is the Tooltip of Kaiten, but it also doubles as the Reason for Kenki to exist, I made this realization shortly after 6.1, since it's gone the Importance of Kaiten rings evermore clear with every passing day. I want the Devs to Bring Back Kaiten, because gave Kenki Reason and the Samurai the autonomy to increase the damage output on their own, which in turn created fun. After 6.1.. what fun is it to spam Shinten? I'd say none!

I'd be thankful if someone fixes my Tooltop Screencaps, like given back the Kaiten Symbol onto the slashed Question Mark.

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

日本語:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...050d329a5c.png
English:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...Kaiten_eng.png
Deutsch:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...Kaiten_ger.png
Français:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen.../Kaiten_fr.png

as you see this is the Tooltip of Kaiten, but it also doubles as the Reason for Kenki to exist, I made this realization shortly after 6.1, since it's gone the Importance of Kaiten rings evermore clear with every passing day. I want the Devs to Bring Back Kaiten, because gave Kenki Reason and the Samurai the autonomy to increase the damage output on their own, which in turn created fun. After 6.1.. what fun is it to spam Shinten? I'd say none!

I'd be thankful if someone fixes my Tooltop Screencaps, like given back the Kaiten Symbol onto the slashed Question Mark.

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Kaiten is indeed in PvP,

Seeing blank removal bars you’re being delusional or just can’t let it go

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Originally Posted by Vencio

Seeing blank removal bars you’re being delusional or just can’t let it go

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It's not delusion, it's dedication!
Like how you only come back to the forums to help and refuel the Kaiten discussion. (❁´▽`❁)*✲ﾟ*

https://pa1.narvii.com/5630/8c74e4bd...7a07821_hq.gif

Kaiten made Kenki interact with Weaponskills, which granted the Player the Ability to boost Damage on their own. That's the Freedom that Kaiten granted you, to boost every Weaponskill you want, for just 20 Kenki. Just get to 20 Kenki and prepare your next Weaponskills BOOM!

Saying that Kaiten is restrictive is like saying that the Freedom of Choice is restrictive.

Every Job in the Game has Weaponskills,
No Job has an Active Skill that interacts with The Job's Resource to make their Weaponskills Stronger*

*which was Kaiten enabling to

In Order to make the most of it, the Player used Kaiten on the Biggest Weaponskills the Samurai has, which are:
Iaijutsu and Ogi

That isn't possible anymore, all Kenki is there for (as of since 6.1) are just the Filler Attacks like Shinten (for Single Target) and Kyuten (for AoE). For Senei and Guren we have Ikishoten to prepare for. Which contribute for Kenki and in turn Samurai to feel stripped and Empty, and most Samurai who were playing lvl52+ Content felt that!

This is the Learning Curve of Kaiten, to be prepared for the Next Big Weaponskill to make even Bigger! It's Unique to the Samurai and created the Identity to be able to strive for even higher Damage.

Now it's set Damage and the Crit/Direct Hit changes do nothing to give Kenki reason to exist after the 6.1 changes outside of gatekeeping Filler Attacks, which sucks.

If I would comply with the Button Bloat Arguement, My Solution would be to roll Tsubamegaeshi up into Iaijutsu (just how Ninja's Bunshin turns into Kamaitachi), since Tsubamegaeshi doesn't contribute to Meditation Stacks anymore I don't see the reason why it should take up a Button. But combining Shoha with Shoha II and Senei with Guren is not a good Change, Why? because that Skill already exists in the Dragoon's Kit, it's Name: Geirskogul and Nastrond, (while true those Skills are Line AoEs and the Samurai Skills are Circle AoE..) I do not want the Samurai to be redesigned into a Dragoon Circle Jerk. It's The Duty of the Samurai to judge the Situation to determine which Skills to use when, another Pillar of Understanding How the Samurai works.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vencio

Kaiten is indeed in PvP,

Seeing blank removal bars you’re being delusional or just can’t let it go

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that's true, I cannot let good Gameplay go to the wastes of oblivion.
Which is why I give my Insight of the Subject Matter aswell as my Discoveries and Reasons, which is what the Devs up until that point did not done. They sticked the Landing with the Ninja Rework of 5.2 and rode that high until they hit rock buttom with 6.1.
I'd say those Player/Infuencer/Content Creator who blindly praise the Game every chance they get are delusional, it's not wrong to enjoy the game now, but to disregard our concerns and feedback in single sentences? That's wrong.

and yes Kaiten is still in PvP.. but all it does is to turn Single Target Skills into AoE, that may work for PvP but not in PvE ^^;

It is Important to see how the Kit of the FFXIV Samurai emulates real Samurai principles:

Kaiten - Is to utilize the Breath, to breath into every attack to make it stronger
(which is why the Samurai since 6.1 feels so weak, they doesn't utilize the breath anymore to wind up.)

Single Target and AoE Variants that utilize the same resource:
Guren/Senei , Shoha/Shoha II - that emulates the spacial awareness, to see the situation and use the correct techniques to win. When I'm surrended, I rather utilize my resources to hit all my enemies and when I'm in a duel I let hell break loose with strong targetted attacks. There was an oddity brought up, how we only one skill per New Resource.. after thinking about it, I'd say it to emulate the Journey to discover new techniques and perfecting them with the AoE / Single Target Variant in the Next Expansion+ learning something new to repeat the circle of learning and perfecting.

Ikishoten - launched in Shadowbringers, I'd say it's a preparation stance, because Guren and Senei have the same Cool Down so it perfectly lines up+ ikishoten also activates the Ogi Trigger.

Hagakure - it's a Code of Honor of the Samurai and the constant awareness of death, which is why in FFXIV it flushes away all your Sen for additional Kenki. It's in my opinion the more situational brother of Kaiten since Kaiten takes Kenki and Hagakure gives Kenki, through the sacrefice of Sen. (sometime ago I had a conversation with a friend about Hagakure, though in the context of FFXIV it's to have presented as a Skill)

Meikyo Shisui - It's the shortening of Techniques to perform them faster. (Something my Aikido Master showed me long ago)


BONUS - recently I watched a JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Allstar Battle R Super Combo Showcase Video, there my Favorite Character: Gyro Zeppeli used Ogon no Kaiten! ... so you'll tell me.. that my favorite Character, who made me love Pizza Mozzarella also used Kaiten!

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

BONUS - recently I watched a JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Allstar Battle R Super Combo Showcase Video, there my Favorite Character: Gyro Zeppeli used Ogon no Kaiten! ... so you'll tell me.. that my favorite Character, who made me love Pizza Mozzarella also used Kaiten!

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Pretty sure the word Kaiten translates to 'spin' or rotate. Which in the case of ffxiv, was when SAM spins their sword in advance.

Not familiar with Jojo beyond the Dio memes, so can't comment on that, but there's a technique in rurouni Kensington where the ninja guy, Aoshi does a spinning slash called Kaiten Kenbu. And then there's the Hyuga clan in Naruto with the technique Kaiten, which is just them spinning like a top to block and repel enemy attacks.

It's literally just to spin.

Give me my kaiten back, give everyone their kaiten back. After that, if you the dev want to change something in the sam kit, please listen to sam community who can give you legit and sound reasons. This is just a rant post. I want to play sam again and i want kaiten back. I dont care if sam is top dps or whatever, without kaiten, the flow is not there anymore

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

rurouni Kensington

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lmao

tenchar

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Pretty sure the word Kaiten translates to 'spin' or rotate. Which in the case of ffxiv, was when SAM spins their sword in advance.

Not familiar with Jojo beyond the Dio memes, so can't comment on that, but there's a technique in rurouni Kensington where the ninja guy, Aoshi does a spinning slash called Kaiten Kenbu. And then there's the Hyuga clan in Naruto with the technique Kaiten, which is just them spinning like a top to block and repel enemy attacks.

It's literally just to spin.

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yeah Kaiten may refer to us spinning our Blade but in actuality it emulated our breath, which is why we constantly used Kaiten, we were actively breathing into our attacks thus making them stronger. It's not a thing that can be just removed and be compensated with Potency Buffs and we all know that.

though I recommend you to read Part 7 it is that Good! and don't worry about skipping over parts since every JoJo Part can stand on it's own ^^