What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

"I'm used to mommy telling me my opinion was important." - the thread.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

No one important died or even faced any consequences. Numerous plot threads just dropped that might’ve actually put some stakes into the story(yshtola’s life draining from heavensward for example. Just completely dropped cuz can’t kill off any scions lul.)

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Moenbryda, Minfilia, and Papalymo say otherwise. Just none since.

my olny compliant is during the last leg before you get tot he final zone. tje end of days hits 2 zones. as we are waiting for the speical ore to arrvie the end days shoudl have it all znoes adn you alone ran off to try adn stem the tide tot he point were city state leaders are tell you to slow down or your burn yourself out. i know the role quest kinda do that but they don't feel as omg we in deep truble.

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Originally Posted by Braven_Doomdraft

"I'm used to mommy telling me my opinion was important." - the thread.

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Just you, really.

I do have issues with the story but I am hopeful for the future. Garlemald and the Primals / Eikons have consumed our attention for the past 8 years.

Hoping they can move forward in a good way because power creep is real.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Moenbryda, Minfilia, and Papalymo say otherwise. Just none since.

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When did they die in Endwalker? I was talking strictly endwalker. And yes none since that’s my point. We haven’t had any meaningful consequences or deaths since Heavensward, everything after that is riddled with severe plot armor.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Its honestly only here on the official forums where the hate seems to be more concentrated. Reddit, YouTube and every Facebook page I'm subscribed to seems to love it. Hell, it's still at 91% critical rating and 94% user rating on Metacritic (and one of the user scores is actually a mistake where he gave it a zero but praised the entire game).

The forums just seems to have a very vocal minority. Honestly, most posts on the forums seem to do nothing but criticize the game. The place is a ****show most of the time with very little in the way of productive discussion.

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Yes, the less than 1% population that has highly rated the game clearly is a better representation than the other less than 1% population that has criticisms of the game.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

When did they die in Endwalker? I was talking strictly endwalker. And yes none since that’s my point. We haven’t had any meaningful consequences or deaths since Heavensward, everything after that is riddled with severe plot armor.

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A good story does not requires someone to die.
That type of story flow is considered 3rd rated script writers and will only create problem when story goes too long.
Just look at World of Warcraft, they let their key characters dies for no reason just for dramatic effect for that one patch, what a joke.
Illidan died then resurrected
Arthas died then resurrected
etc etc
Isn't they planning to bring back someone we killed last expansion already?

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

A good story does not requires someone to die.
That type of story flow is considered 3rd rated script writers and will only create problem when story goes too long.
Just look at World of Warcraft, they let their key characters dies for no reason just for dramatic effect for that one patch, what a joke.

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No, but considering the most popular ff games are the ones where some of the main cast members died, i don’t think it’s coincidental. Disregarding that however, when you have a threat like a world ending apocalypse, you need to add some stakes. Plot armor doesn’t make a good story either, and yet this game is riddled with it. It disrupts the so called “story flow” quite a lot actually. When you constantly do death fake-outs, it just makes those moments meaningless for most. All this expansion really did is emotionally manipulate people and so it’s considered amazing for that. There’s a world ending apocalypse? Don’t worry the main cast is immortal so it’s not a threat. Let’s have a lunch date while another country is being tormented by beasts. 10/10 “story flow”

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

No, but considering the most popular ff games are the ones where some of the main cast members died, i don’t think it’s coincidental. Disregarding that however, when you have a threat like a world ending apocalypse, you need to add some stakes. Plot armor doesn’t make a good story either, and yet this game is riddled with it. It disrupts the so called “story flow” quite a lot actually. When you constantly do death fake-outs, it just makes those moments meaningless for most. All this expansion really did is emotionally manipulate people and so it’s considered amazing for that. There’s a world ending apocalypse? Don’t worry the main cast is immortal so it’s not a threat. Let’s have a lunch date while another country is being tormented by beasts. 10/10 “story flow”

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The problem for MMO is every expansion is going to be consider as an arc of apocalypse.
If you are just going to kill key characters every expansion just for "dramatic effect" then current World of Warcraft is your best example of failure.
The speed they killed off their key characters are way faster than new characters they can make us to care.
No, that is not a good way of story telling and never will.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

A good story does not requires someone to die.
That type of story flow is considered 3rd rated script writers and will only create problem when story goes too long.
Just look at World of Warcraft, they let their key characters dies for no reason just for dramatic effect for that one patch, what a joke.
Illidan died then resurrected
Arthas died then resurrected
etc etc
Isn't they planning to bring back someone we killed last expansion already?

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First off, Arthas was never resurrected at all.

Second, going into a story where it is an apocalyptic phase where they hinge on the fact that "anyone can become a blasphemy" or raising the stakes so high to stop doomsday -- and yet these stakes never really matter as they dont affect the story nor the main cast or secondary cast of characters. We have had multiple fake out deaths over expansions and this idea of being pushed the absolute limit to save the world. On top of this, we know that this is the end of the main Scion story with Zodiark/Hydalyn -- this is prime time when you do this to focus the story around core characters and create new ones moving forward.

Saying "whatabout WoW" when this is the hyped end of the current saga where this stuff usually happens, goes to show the lack of stakes in play. WoW has the magnanimous problem of going from one doomsday story to the next where there are literally no stakes because the failure outcome is "everyone dies lol" after the 8th version of it..

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

A good story does not requires someone to die.
That type of story flow is considered 3rd rated script writers and will only create problem when story goes too long.
Just look at World of Warcraft, they let their key characters dies for no reason just for dramatic effect for that one patch, what a joke.
Illidan died then resurrected
Arthas died then resurrected
etc etc
Isn't they planning to bring back someone we killed last expansion already?

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And yet they're so content on killing many npc fodder, in attempt to make us sad.

True, a good story doesn't always need character death, yet for a story focused on war, apocalypse, fighting in general, lack of death only shows the plot armor the protagonists have. Which can be annoying.

When is the last time we had permanent death for major character? Papalymo iirc, back in HW. That's why they keep milking the same dead characters for lvl 89 dungeon.

You complain about character being resurrected? We literally have the scions die and get resurrected in one patch (6.0). Or how about y'sthola back in 5.0, and g'raha in 5.3?

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Originally Posted by Kozh

And yet they're so content on killing many npc fodder, in attempt to make us sad.

You complain about character being resurrected? We literally have the scions die and get resurrected in one patch (6.0). Or how about y'sthola back in 5.0, and g'raha in 5.3?

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Tbf, I wouldn't have complained if they brought Ysayle back. And you know I would trade Y'sthola in for Ysayle any day of the week!

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

The problem for MMO is every expansion is going to be consider as an arc of apocalypse.
If you are just going to kill key characters every expansion just for "dramatic effect" then current World of Warcraft is your best example of failure.
The speed they killed off their key characters are way faster than new characters they can make us to care.
No, that is not a good way of story telling and never will.

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Its a problem specifically because the entire theme of this expansion is suffering, the song theme is even loss,fire,faith, yet what loss have any of them faces since HW? Its only the fodder npc's or antagonists that ever lose. The protagonists literally get resurrected this expansion as well which just completely contradicts the theme of learning to suffer and deal with the consequences.

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Originally Posted by Rhysati

Just gonna point out that some of the worst MMOs and expansions in gaming history were wildly praised at release and then later listed as one of the worst things ever.

Case in point: WoW's Warlords of Draenor. At release people were raving about how it was the best expansion the game had yet had. A small portion of the playerbase disagreed and were generally ripped to shreds by those who adored it as the best MMO expansion in the history of the world.

And then reality eventually caught up with that expansion and it became known as the worst MMO expansion ever made.

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People who complained about WoD usually say it's because of the lack of content as the expansion progresses. They still think the leveling and initial patch was great.

We're talking about the .0 MSQ, which is not changing. If people end up changing their minds about liking Endwalker as an expansion as a whole, it won't be because of the .0 story because that would've already been factored into their initial impression.

One thing that annoyed me was that after the memwipe - we are supposed to think no one would believe Venat?

Emet and Hyth already believed us once....there are literally witnesses to the past few days that can confirm things such as Metion "launching" days before the memwipe.

There is just so much disregard for the entire experience that you had there and for some reason an assumption that people wouldn't do something they had already done. Venat had a tracker on Metion, FFS...and did no one notice the giant HOLE blown out of the building and give that a thought?

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Aether is like the Force of ffxiv, but can be scientifically measured and studied. Meanwhile dynamis has never been hinted before EW.

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The Dancer questline does. The Kriegstanz and Totentanz describe almost word for word the effect of dynamis on a person. The questline says aetheric manipulation. But we need to take anything interpreted by someone in-game with a grain of salt, because that's seen through the lens of their own understanding. And we saw from the Scions interaction with Nidhana that akasha/dynamis is not a heavily studied field. It's like our real life scientists and dark energy. We use the explanation we have until we have the tools to confirm a new understanding.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

They even go as far as to have Hydaelyn's primal model a literal angelic figure, in case you weren't browbeaten enough as to how benevolent and good she was, while Zodiark appears demonic despite that not befitting his summoners, his heart, or his purpose. A

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I think that has to do more with them being portrayed as they are in Amano's artwork, which has been out there for years. Plus we just had an expansion that told us angelic figures don't mean benevolent and good. That's just the form they take as beings associated with Light.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I think that has to do more with them being portrayed as they are in Amano's artwork, which has been out there for years. Plus we just had an expansion that told us angelic figures don't mean benevolent and good. That's just the form they take as beings associated with Light.

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To be completely honest though, that does raise a good point. Why is Zodiark, a figure and being born of salvation, take onn a demonic form, whereas the being who was created to keep said other being in check is the angelic and benevolent looking one.I think the main problem though is that yes, we had an expansion show us that angelic figures dont mean benevolent or good yet we still only ever use light in the story, and the main angelic figure is still overall treated as benevolent and good with the demonic figure barely getting any credit for anything after its death.

I bet money that OP would never be satisficed with whatever the story was.

OP could write a story they liked then we could use Kairos to wipe OP's memory. OP would then hate the story even though they wrote it.

I’m just confused at how we were sent back to the future, but then the raids summon us back to the past after msq is over, so we can canonically keep going back in time, and trying to change the future. Instead even now, we do nothing.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

To be completely honest though, that does raise a good point. Why is Zodiark, a figure and being born of salvation, take onn a demonic form, whereas the being who was created to keep said other being in check is the angelic and benevolent looking one.I think the main problem though is that yes, we had an expansion show us that angelic figures dont mean benevolent or good yet we still only ever use light in the story, and the main angelic figure is still overall treated as benevolent and good with the demonic figure barely getting any credit for anything after its death.

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I think we just haven't had a chance to see a lot of beings that are associated with Darkness. Maybe they all look like that and it's only our own in real life perceptions coming into play. To the people on the First, it's the angelic beings who are the true demonic personas.

I thought the story was awesome!
They topped SB.

To each thier own though.

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Originally Posted by Krojack

I bet money that OP would never be satisficed with whatever the story was.

OP could write a story they liked then we could use Kairos to wipe OP's memory. OP would then hate the story even though they wrote it.

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Odd take, but why do you feel like that? Aren't criticisms allowed here or are we striving to become more of an echo chamber than we are?

Lots of people enjoyed it we just want to understand your reasoning and counter points. I mean people like the got ending as well..

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Originally Posted by Krojack

I bet money that OP would never be satisficed with whatever the story was.

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Honestly I feel like a lot of players I've seen are opposite of this to their detriment. What I mean is, I get the vibe that a lot of people will defend the story no matter which way the writers take it. They could do something completely crazy that makes no sense and you would still have people explaining why the story had to turn out that way and tell you that the reason you don't like it is because you just didn't pay attention enough or never played a jrpg before lol

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I think we just haven't had a chance to see a lot of beings that are associated with Darkness. Maybe they all look like that and it's only our own in real life perceptions coming into play.

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I was hoping we'd be able to harness the power of darkness along with light back when I first saw the Shb trailer - like dealing with dark crystals or something? That would've been cool. The one scene that comes to mind was when Gaia was freeing Ryne from being Shiva and if I remember correctly, she yelled out "power of darkness answer my call!" which I thought was kind of silly. But I really wish they would touch on this more.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

• The mighty Zodiark, which has been build up as this mighty(evil) entity over several expansions, turns out to be nothing but filler trash for the first Endwalker trial
• The true cause of the Final Days is a pet-project from an ancient which goes mad after observing countless dead world and possibly causing the death of several world by projecting negative emotions unto them, and is thus dead-set on bringing despair to every world, upon which said ancient goes mad and is now letting her run her course to test humanity if they can withstand/fight despair
• Venat, who hasn't had her memory wiped + still remembers you from being in Elpis, quite apparently doesn't lift a finger to learn about Dynamis herself or to mobilize the other ancients to end Meteion then and there, and instead chooses to turn herself into Hydaelyn, sunder the world and the inhabitants, thereby forcing them to live with and face despair and gambling that their resilience against despair might be enough to face Meteion one day

Really?
This is the best SQ could do in terms of story after ShB?

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Yup, the story was indeed mediocre at best. I didn't feel absolute anything in the last part of MSQ, it was obvious the whole group would appear alive again 15 minutes after a few quests.

Lots of characters didn't even appear in the whole new expansion for no reason at all.

I've been playing since ARR, when Zenos got introduced the AMOUNT of time he was put in cutscenes and at the end of every major patch like a true menace (basically sitting in a chair for like 5 patches just staring) just to be casted away like nothing and introduce the bird girl as the final boss.

Imagine if FFVII with Sephiroth, countless hours of playing and chasing him around the whole planet but ups, in the last hour we introduced this big cactus who took the cells of Jenova and now he is the final boss. What about Sephi? well now kill him on a QTE event just for fan service.

Shadowbringers and HW are still the best content this company offered in the past decade.

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

Honestly I feel like a lot of players I've seen are opposite of this to their detriment. What I mean is, I get the vibe that a lot of people will defend the story no matter which way the writers take it. They could do something completely crazy that makes no sense and you would still have people explaining why the story had to turn out that way and tell you that the reason you don't like it is because you just didn't pay attention enough or never played a jrpg before lol

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I am at the point I can't be bothered to focus too much on negatives because then I would go on a lenghty rant of each expansions flaws.
I am pretty sure there has been so much complaint on each release and honestly not surprised how there are for Endwalker as some stuff i agree. I still enjoyed and loved this expansion story.

Although I am fine with how Zodiark was treated, it was already explained before the process so it was more of how they were going to utilize.

But hey, it is better than whatever Heavensward treated ascians or Stormblood comic relief imperial roe or Shadowbriger mr. Kung fu dragon pet guy.

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

I am at the point I can't be bothered to focus too much on negatives because then I would go on a lenghty rant of each expansions flaws.

But hey, it is better than whatever Heavensward treated ascians or Stormblood comic relief imperial roe or Shadowbriger mr. Kung fu dragon pet guy.

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I do think that we have to show some discontent so that the writers and devs knows not to repeat certain events/aspects in the future.

In SB, I was really tired of Zenos slow walking at you with a sword every instance fight and I guess no one took an issue with that because immediately next expansion we had Zenos 2.0 Ranjit slow walking at you with Kung-fu and a dragon.

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Originally Posted by EmpyreanHelios

I do think that we have to show some discontent so that the writers and devs knows not to repeat certain events/aspects in the future.

In SB, I was really tired of Zenos slow walking at you with a sword every instance fight and I guess no one took an issue with that because immediately next expansion we had Zenos 2.0 Ranjit slow walking at you with Kung-fu and a dragon.

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So we're suppose to work like a hivemind and like/hate the same things? I think not. This is not some universal agreement on bad story writing. You guys are not correct on all accounts, all I see are opinions, which is fine. You and a few others don't like the story, which is also fine.

The most boring thing they could've done would be to make Zodiark or Hydaelyn the big bad, which they didn't.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Her action is definitely a gamble. Something even y'sthola said it was. She met one strong sundered person, then decided to bet the future of humanity to that person plus seven other people. She is lucky EW is so deep in shounen anime trope that the protagonists can defeat literall endbringer, who accumulated despair for 12k years across the stars, via friendship power.

I can't believe I like tales of arise ending better than EW.

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Again, it wasn't a gamble when you know the outcome. She knew Sundering the world would put a temporary stop to the Final Days. She heard our tales of stopping numerous world-destroying threats, she heard of us defeating Emet-Selch, who bare in mind is considered the most gifted in Aetheric manipulation out of all Ancients, as stated by Hythlodaeus, and knew how long it'd be until the Final Days returned. We literally gave her, Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus a detailed history of FFXIV and our accomplishments. She knew that choosing us to be Her Champion would result in said events playing out.

What she didn't know is what would happen when we returned from the past, and even then she put a plan in place in the event we failed. She didn't know if we would be able to defeat Meteion, as her knowledge of the future ended when we returned to the present, so she tested us. If we failed, we were to flee Etherys. If we passed, then we know what happens.

Think of it like this;

A future version of you arrives infront of you. You see they are extremely wealthy, and they tell you that they won the lottery and created a scientific research company, who then discovered time travel. They then give you the winning lottery numbers and return to the future. You use those numbers and win the lottery and you end up creating a company based on scientific research. One of the researchers discovers time travel and you become the first person to use it. You arrive in the past infront of a younger version of yourself and tell them you won the lottery and created a company etc. then return to the present. From the moment you returned to the present, you have absolutely no knowledge on what to do next, as the future version of you only told you up to the point of the researcher discovering time travel, and the rest of what happened you just lived through it. Your knowledge of the future is gone, and so you must figure something out. That is what Hydaelyn was like.

Another thing; Zodiark was built up for years, yes, however the playerbase had been speculating on what would happen after we defeated him for years. The in-game rumours, and in-game information only spoke of him at full power. The Zodiark we killed was severely crippled, both due to his "Heart" being killed and also being starved of sacrifices since the Sundering. Also, everyone seems to be forgetting that Zodiark's death was the literal cause of the Final Days, aka the end of the world in our time. Zodiark was a huge threat that we had to stomp out, and because we stomped him out, for the first time we experience the consequences of our actions. Every time we defeated a Primal or a "big bad", the world would return to what it was like pre-expansion, rinse and repeat. This time, however, defeating the Primal/"big bad" resulted in an even more catastrophic situation playing out; The Final Days. Endwalker is essentially a normal expansion up until the point where we defeat the "big bad" Zodiark, but are then forced into an extreme case of damage control due to our actions, and then being forced to confront an ancient enemy who laid in wait for literal eons amassing power for the sole purpose of wiping us out..

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Originally Posted by Imperius_Relampago

Think of it like this;

A future version of you arrives infront of you. You see they are extremely wealthy, and they tell you that they won the lottery and created a scientific research company, who then discovered time travel. They then give you the winning lottery numbers and return to the future. You use those numbers and win the lottery and you end up creating a company based on scientific research. One of the researchers discovers time travel and you become the first person to use it. You arrive in the past infront of a younger version of yourself and tell them you won the lottery and created a company etc. then return to the present. From the moment you returned to the present, you have absolutely no knowledge on what to do next, as the future version of you only told you up to the point of the researcher discovering time travel, and the rest of what happened you just lived through it. Your knowledge of the future is gone, and so you must figure something out. That is what Hydaelyn was like.

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That's fine- but it's cheesy. It's what it is because it's what we said it would be.

That kind of removes the agency from all the characters and puts everything on a deterministic path. If that is what they wanted to do (they DID say we couldn't change the future) then why did we interact with the Ancients at all? It should have kept us invisible to them and we should have just passively learned what happened. Honestly, that is kind of what I expected to happen. The fact that they made our presence there a crucial part of the way things turned out means that we created this new future - ok... but if that is the case, why did the future ignore so much of the REST of what happened in the past?

It felt like if you watched Back to the Future and he got back to the present and nothing had changed.... because they had written the story of the present first and then no matter what happened in the past, they were stuck in a corner. That's the problem with time travel I guess.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I think we just haven't had a chance to see a lot of beings that are associated with Darkness. Maybe they all look like that and it's only our own in real life perceptions coming into play. To the people on the First, it's the angelic beings who are the true demonic personas.

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In all honesty, I thought Zodiark's form was fine. They used SHB to hammer the point that simply looking like an angel doesn't imply one is benevolent, with Innocence as an extreme of this. Plus, some of the sin eaters and lightwardens themselves looked rather demonic. Zodiark by contrast has the large horns and menacing appearance, but he is a primal of salvation and also an Atlas like figure, protecting the star from corruption. I suspect Zodiark's appearance is simply a consequence of him being a primal of darkness, although given that the statues of him predate his summoning, it may have some mythological significance to the ancients as well. As in, he bears the guise of some manner of protector deity. Horned gods exist as a thing separately to demons.

Where it grated on my nerves was constantly Hydaelyn using the terms light and dark as interchangeable with good and evil (or associated concepts, like hope and despair), when they spent an entire expansion unravelling this association. It just sits weirdly. The fixation with light at this point is just dull to me.

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Originally Posted by Imperius_Relampago

Again, it wasn't a gamble when you know the outcome. She knew Sundering the world would put a temporary stop to the Final Days.

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Hm, where did she know that from? Zodiark was what was preventing a repeat.

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She heard our tales of stopping numerous world-destroying threats, she heard of us defeating Emet-Selch, who bare in mind is considered the most gifted in Aetheric manipulation out of all Ancients

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Yes, coupled with seven other summoned champions, the Scions and a ton of light which the story attributed the MC being able to control due to bearing the Blessing of Light and which took a further soul shard rejoining to avoid bursting at the seams. The sundering aetherically reduced life 9 times in excess of the total amount of soul shards the WoL had rejoined. All that, plus the aid of the scions to eventually put a hole through him. And again, this is one singular individual in possession of a particularly potent ancient soul, with a lot of plot contrivances enabling said outcome. Rather exceptional compared to other sundered beings.

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What she didn't know is what would happen when we returned from the past, and even then she put a plan in place in the event we failed.

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An utterly futile one, because what does fleeing the star accomplish against a foe like Meteion?

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She didn't know if we would be able to defeat Meteion, as her knowledge of the future ended when we returned to the present, so she tested us. If we failed, we were to flee Etherys. If we passed, then we know what happens.

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This part right here is why people refer to it as a gamble, i.e. sundering the world to commit to the original timeline on the basis of an outcome she'd still need to test.

We never see Zodiark at the peak of his power. We fight Zodiark at his strongest through the Elidibus fight, the remains of Zodiark are just that an empty husk of a once powerful being with not even half of its strength left.

the final boss was about his final question. Is humanity worthy of existing? and everything the Metea was shown across the stars is no we weren't. (What we fight ISNT Metelion it was the shared consciousness of her sisters that we fight, Meteion was on our side after we freed her from the shared consciousness by reminding her of what makes living important)

Vanat's actions after we go to the future is a challenge to that very question. (i suggest reading the lyrics on Answers with this context) By living and desiring to keep on living knowing there is an end we contradict everything the Metea learned in their travels across the stars. Vanat can't learn how to control dynamis because she is a large mass of aether and aether drowns out dynamis. The only person who had a clue to understanding dynamis wiped their mind and replaced with traumatizing memories. The only way she could fight back is by having everything happen as she was told by our character so that we would be ready to confront the final days. If Vanat had change things, she would risk us not being ready to confront Endsinger when she returns. It is our journey from ARR to Endwalker that prepares us to face Endsinger and without that journey we wouldn't stand a chance.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

That kind of removes the agency from all the characters and puts everything on a deterministic path.

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I mean, the Echo literally lets you see the attacks of opponents before they happen. Also, every time you fail a duty, it is canonical that it was the Echo granting you a vision of what would happen if you attempted it at your current strength/mindset. The whole "empowered by the Echo" mechanic is described as you having learned from the vision and using that knowledge to defeat your opponent. So we already have some manner of precognition.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

If that is what they wanted to do (they DID say we couldn't change the future) then why did we interact with the Ancients at all? It should have kept us invisible to them and we should have just passively learned what happened

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Back to the Future used a different set of Time Travel rules. There are many rules and paradoxes to time travel, but the one FFXIV uses in Endwalker is the Predestination Paradox, aka Causal Loop/Closed Time Loop. In layman's terms, it means this: The time traveller is in the past, which means they were in the past before. Therefore, their presence is vital to the future, and they do something that causes the future to occur in the same way that their knowledge of the future has already happened. Prior to going to the Unsundered World, us arriving in Elpis already happened, as stated by Elidibus. He had memories of seeing us in Elpis in the Unsundered World. This means that in our time, we had already been in Elpis all those years ago. Our presence in the past and our actions is what caused Meteion to become the Endsinger. If we didn't tell Venat and co. about the Final Days etc, then Emet-Selch wouldn't have pushed so hard to take Meteion into the Convocations custody and away from Hermes, and as such Hermes wouldn't have pushed back so hard. Hermes simply wanted to hear Meteion's report, but Emet-Selch was trying to prevent it. If Hermes had heard the full report, chances are he wouldn't have done the stuff he did out of desperation.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

The fact that they made our presence there a crucial part of the way things turned out means that we created this new future

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It's not a new future. The past occurred in our past. We have always went to Elpis to discover what was causing the Final Days. Our travel to the past is what inevitably causes the Final Days in the first place. Hence, closed loop. It's like learning that you were going to be hit by a car that day, so you stay at home, and then a car crashes into your house and hits you. If you weren't at home, you wouldn't have been hit by the car. It's simple causality; You were influenced by the knowledge that you were going to be hit by a car that day and as such stayed at home, which in turn contributes to the car hitting you; The cause is partly responsible for the effect, and the effect is partly dependent on the cause.

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Originally Posted by EmpyreanHelios

I do think that we have to show some discontent so that the writers and devs knows not to repeat certain events/aspects in the future.

In SB, I was really tired of Zenos slow walking at you with a sword every instance fight and I guess no one took an issue with that because immediately next expansion we had Zenos 2.0 Ranjit slow walking at you with Kung-fu and a dragon.

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The writing was already set and as myself I joined during 5.2 so nothing else would have changed.

I can give my views on the writing overall etc but what's done is done plus I loved all expansions, it was a fantastic journey for me, despite having its flaws(which I never expected the game to be perfect to begin with, I didn't even expected to play this much).

I just wanted to chime in with Zodiark talk that honestly they did better than having Z and Hydaelyn as big bad.

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Originally Posted by Imperius_Relampago

It's not a new future. The past occurred in our past. We have always went to Elpis to discover what was causing the Final Days. Our travel to the past is what inevitably causes the Final Days in the first place. Hence, closed loop. It's like learning that you were going to be hit by a car that day, so you stay at home, and then a car crashes into your house and hits you. If you weren't at home, you wouldn't have been hit by the car. It's simple causality; You were influenced by the knowledge that you were going to be hit by a car that day and as such stayed at home, which in turn contributes to the car hitting you; The cause is partly responsible for the effect, and the effect is partly dependent on the cause.

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You are right, I shouldn't have said "new" future... in fact, according to this story- this entire arc had already happened before players even started playing...because back in the past we said it would.

That still removes all agency from the characters and essentially means that we have been in a predetermined play that started I don't know over a thousand years ago. I don't love that. I especially don't love that it is being passed off as some kind of "You helped set this is motion". No we didn't. If we did, then all the rest of the circumstances they ignored would have been factored into the story, but they weren't. That's why I think we should have been passive learners in the past... we just left behind way too much evidence/opportunity for things to have gone differently to be shoehorned into the story the writers wrote. It was their story, not ours.

It's fine to say we are stuck on this course of history- I think it's a cheap trick to try to lay that at the feet of players and say "You were responsible for how we got here... because we said so". No, we weren't. You wrote a history and then stuck us into it, ignored the actual impact we had and said "Ta-da! Now you are responsible".

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Originally Posted by Imperius_Relampago

snip

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I think the other problem people have, along with all of the other ones that have been stated in this thread in regards to the time stuff, is that they use two different types of time travel over the course of only two expansions(Graha and Elpis). It's like they only introduced it because they couldnt come up with any other way to make the plot. They had to use two different instances of time travel to try and make it work so it just makes things unnecessarily convoluted.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

You are right, I shouldn't have said "new" future... in fact, according to this story- this entire arc had already happened before players even started playing...because back in the past we said it would.

That still removes all agency from the characters and essentially means that we have been in a predetermined play that started I don't know over a thousand years ago. I don't love that. I especially don't love that it is being passed off as some kind of "You helped set this is motion". No we didn't. If we did, then all the rest of the circumstances they ignored would have been factored into the story, but they weren't. That's why I think we should have been passive learners in the past... we just left behind way too much evidence/opportunity for things to have gone differently to be shoehorned into the story the writers wrote. It was their story, not ours.

It's fine to say we are stuck on this course of history- I think it's a cheap trick to try to lay that at the feet of players and say "You were responsible for how we got here... because we said so". No, we weren't. You wrote a history and then stuck us into it, ignored the actual impact we had and said "Ta-da! Now you are responsible".

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Heavily agree with this. It's what I find so entirely dissatisfactory with explanations like the one given. Plus they utilised time travel just an expansion prior, that time resulting in the formation of a branching world.