Endwalker White Mage has Issues

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

I found a JP Hippokampos log with a solo WHM healer who seems to have output some nice damage. https://www.fflogs.com/reports/JqBLX...pe=damage-done (hope I don't get in trouble for this, lol).

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Pretty sure every other healer can do that if you have reaper/dancer/mnk/pld and war. Like dont get me wrong but this doesnt say anything for whm its just tells you that dmg the party receives even in lower savage fights isnt high enough.

WHM has zero synergy with the other healers, especially with how lacking their oGCDs are.

Being paired with WHM means that you have to pick up the slack if WHM wants to optimal.

Lilybell should not be on 3 min CD, because you can't control it and is only useful in situations where you need staggered healing. And with its long CD, is only for maybe 3-4 time in a fight. At least allow us to save the stacks that aren't used for half the potency.

Assize should've been two charges on the GCD like Phlegma.

Either revert Thin Air or increase Assize's MP refund to 1000.

Regardless if you believe that WHM is in a bad spot, it's always been. In StB, it was literally rock bottom. After the crippling of SCH and AST, only then did WHM felt okay because 5.0 AST was hot garbage before the monster buffs it got and SCH clipped like crazy and it's fairy was very unresponsive.

Now that SCH is in a somewhat better place (cast time change helped but there's still issues) and AST is still extremely strong healing wise with SGE being outright better designed, WHM's flaws are very apparent. It's the only healer that's entire focus is GCD healing but has the highest MP costs and worst death recovery.

Lilies feel very bad to use because Misery is a DPS loss and start with zero lilies whereas SGE starts with a full Addersgall gauge.

Holy III is laughable because it still uses a 2.5s cast time, like why? It's not even that strong to begin with past the stun.

They can buff the healing numbers all they want but WHM remains to be the selfish healer that forces other healers to work harder because it just lacks the oGCDs to share the burden equally.

WHM was only "good" in Shadowbringers because they scooped the frontal lobes out of AST and SCH going in. WHM is so barebones, overly simplistic, and actively works against both itself and the combat system that it can only reasonably compete with lobotomized classes unless its numbers are blatantly overtuned. Mark my words, even if complexity manages to sneak back onto the other healers they'll be stupidified as soon as it becomes apparent, because WHM's design being horrible by fiat drags the entire role down for "balance" reasons. Even though WHM is STILL the worst healer in a room full of crayon-eaters. That's how badly it needs a core redesign.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

WHM was only "good" in Shadowbringers because they scooped the frontal lobes out of AST and SCH going in. WHM is so barebones, overly simplistic, and actively works against both itself and the combat system that it can only reasonably compete with lobotomized classes unless its numbers are blatantly overtuned. Mark my words, even if complexity manages to sneak back onto the other healers they'll be stupidified as soon as it becomes apparent, because WHM's design being horrible by fiat drags the entire role down for "balance" reasons. Even though WHM is STILL the worst healer in a room full of crayon-eaters. That's how badly it needs a core redesign.

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Exactly, people don't remember the nightmare the forums went through because of the healer changes in ShB.

AST changed a lot and it's 5.0 release was nearly unplayable especially Sleeve Draw forcing you to Draw each card individually three times. And Minor Arcana having to draw and then play as well. Not to mention their severe MP issues.

Or SCH losing its dots, Shadow Flare, Bane and then homogenizing the fairies and even making the fairy unresponsive as hell.

But no, people choose to praise WHM because it got the less changes. What's to change? They didn't have anything to lose, with the devs finally giving them a working gauge with the lilies from that dumpster fire gauge from StB. These are the same devs thay thought that the OG Plenary would be useful with only 8s to spam healing and then use your stacks.

People shouldn't have praised the devs for making WHM playable. People should have been more angry for essentially nerfing SCH and AST into the ground to match WHM. Rather than bring WHM up with a better designed kit.

I 100% agree with you on the notion that WHM's horrible design will haunt the healers forever. People are crying about how WHM is weak and needs buffs and thay Macrocosmos is too OP, only to realize that all the devs heat is that Macrocosmos is OP and nerf it into nothingness while changing zero on WHM's overall design.

I'm tired of people defending WHM's skeleton design. It's way too simple and lacks zero depth. It's GCD design can absolutely work but the devs are not doing it any justice by shackling WHM to the identity of being "easy". WHM does not need to be complex, just not set and forget. It requires zero thought to plan out WHM's healing because they either don't have enough oGCDs or it doesn't have any control (Lilybell).

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Originally Posted by Mortex

Pretty sure every other healer can do that if you have reaper/dancer/mnk/pld and war. Like dont get me wrong but this doesnt say anything for whm its just tells you that dmg the party receives even in lower savage fights isnt high enough.

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They had 7 deaths. Not like it was a clean clear :P Thankfully the party had enough high dps to clear anyway.

Honestly Lilybell is pretty subpar in it's current form it's cooldown is ridiculously long and it's got rather niche and limited use. What would make it more useful is to reduce the CD but also for every time the effect it's triggered it works like Asylum and deals damage to the attackers too.

Cure really is underpowered as a heal they should just let it strait upgrade to cure II and be done with it.

Also revert the Thin Air nerf, that was wholly unnecessary.

Also give back Aero III, still sad they took away that spell for absolutely no reason. :C

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Originally Posted by LuciaMirain

They had 7 deaths. Not like it was a clean clear :P Thankfully the party had enough high dps to clear anyway.

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They did die the moment the boss was killed (they wiped 8:37 and the boss did die 8:38 that is the 2 blue arrow marker after the tank tether and stack). Almost the same time my static has for this fight at the moment.

I sincerely hope they take a good, hard look at WHM come 6.1. I was trying to level it tonight while I was working on my mother's laptop, and oh boy, does it feel so BAD to play, compared to Sage. If I were to describe it, I would say playing Sage is like sailing on a motor boat on the open water, while WHM feels like you're running through mud while you have ankle weights around your legs. Holy being 2.5 still, only 1 charge of Tetra, Lilies feeling underwhelming in general. Not even mentioning MP issues, among other things.

I'm sure there's more I could say, but I think everyone already has beaten me to the punch already.

I WANT to like White Mage, but right now, it's absolutely tedious to play. :(

I think they should add a Swiftcast effect to new Thin Air and make the next cast instant. I'd actually remember to use it with something other than Raise then.

Though the other issue with new Thin Air is with how it doesn't play well with Presence of Mind at all. Would've made a clear burst window had they kept old Thin Air but made it 2 charges and lined up the charge time with Presence of Mind's 120s. Alternatively they could also just reduce MP cost while Presence of Mind's active.

Also regarding Liturgy of the Bell, much like what others have said, I don't like how long its reload is for how short it lasts, but I really don't like how it's largely a delayed heal, which is more AST's thing when WHM's style tends to be more reactive. That's what makes WHM the beginner/prog-friendly healer imo. It'd be way more fun to use if it lasted much longer and had a button to manually use its stacks, not to mention actually making it useful for mob pulls in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

Also regarding Liturgy of the Bell, much like what others have said, I don't like how long its reload is for how short it lasts, but I really don't like how it's largely a delayed heal, which is more AST's thing when WHM's style tends to be more reactive. That's what makes WHM the beginner/prog-friendly healer imo. It'd be way more fun to use if it lasted much longer and had a button to manually use its stacks, not to mention actually making it useful for mob pulls in dungeons.

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I believe their intention wasn't to be an AST-like ability as it only reacts to damage done to the healer, making it reactive-only.

But it's just a bad Earthly Star–triple the CD and no way to control it.

It's really like they sat there and looked at both Macrocosmos and Lilybell and said that "that's balanced right?"

I love Macrocosmos but I think they dropped the ball on Lilybell and only added more clunkiness to WHM. They added an ability that goes 100% usage during a very specific mechanic and is not used in every fight and locking it behind a 3min CD? Lmao.

The dev team is really scared to do anything with WHM and the more people say that they like WHM how it is will only continue this vicious cycle of people complaining about other healers being too OP and that instead of asking for buffs for WHM, they want every healer to be brought to WHM's level. Then the devs see that SCH and AST were nearly unplayable in 5.0 and buffed them to high hell and leave WHM to rot because who would have guessed? WHM's design is terrible and has always been.

Instead of pushing the devs more when they gave us the lily system for improvement and development on it, people just sat there in silence because finally WHM has become playable and on par–only at the cost of destroying AST and SCH's creative designs.

In the end, the devs don't want to fix WHM and mid-expansion fixes for healers is rare and certain not to the extent of DPS jobs reworks.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan_Clover

I sincerely hope they take a good, hard look at WHM come 6.1. I was trying to level it tonight while I was working on my mother's laptop, and oh boy, does it feel so BAD to play, compared to Sage. If I were to describe it, I would say playing Sage is like sailing on a motor boat on the open water, while WHM feels like you're running through mud while you have ankle weights around your legs. Holy being 2.5 still, only 1 charge of Tetra, Lilies feeling underwhelming in general. Not even mentioning MP issues, among other things.

I'm sure there's more I could say, but I think everyone already has beaten me to the punch already.

I WANT to like White Mage, but right now, it's absolutely tedious to play. :(

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You and I both know healers aren't going to get anything truly meaningful come 6.1; mark my words.

Let me regal you with a recent tale of Aurum Hell with a newbie WHM. I want to preface this and just say that I don't fault the WHM in this but moreso the Tank but whatever. I'm only saying this to just say how bad WHM has it at low levels.

So, leveling roulette lands me in Aurum Vale the other day because ofc it does. It's a GNB, MNK, WHM and myself as BLM. The first area and boss are uneventful. It was the pull just before the 2nd boss that things go south. The Tank decides to grab everything right before the boss and that didn't go so well. The WHM had Regen going and was spamming Cure 2 until they got dangerously low and had to use Cure 1. The Tank was popping mitigation but we still ended up wiping (think they stepped into a puddle and took too much damage IDK). We try again but the tank is insistent on pulling everything again. It was slightly easier since some enemies had died but the WHM was low again on MP by the end. 2nd boss was uneventful but afterwards the Tank once again decides to pull everything up to the wall. We miraculously didn't wipe this time but only because the WHM ended up using rescue on the tank to pull him out of range of all the enemies for a moment but still, their MP was strained. The WHM and MNK ended up dying to the last boss due to getting hit by bad breath at 20% or so but the GNB and I were able to survive long enough to kill it.

Now, the WHM did EVERYTHING in their power. They used PoM, they kept Regen up, they used Cure 2, everything but it came at being bottomed out on MP every time. Now, obviously low level content, especially dungeons, isn't really cause for alarm because its irrelevant now but what do you think that WHM player felt like going thru all that? They were in level appropriate gear, having gotten every pieces of the 1st WHM artifact gear (minus the shirt obviously), using jewelry that ranged anywhere between 28-47 with a level 41 weapon. They had used what few CDs they had available and was actually able to hold it together for that 2nd pull but only by the skin of their teeth. That couldn't have been fun to experience, especially for a 1st timer in arguably the worst dungeon in the game. I felt terrible for them having to endure that. Sure, we can blame the tank for it but like, it would be disheartening to say the least if you did everything right and still had a hard time.

I really wish that WHM (and healers in general) got a small overhaul to their starting toolkits so that experiences like that wouldn't really be so difficult for new players.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Now, the WHM did EVERYTHING in their power. They used PoM, they kept Regen up, they used Cure 2, everything but it came at being bottomed out on MP every time. Now, obviously low level content, especially dungeons, isn't really cause for alarm because its irrelevant now but what do you think that WHM player felt like going thru all that? They were in level appropriate gear, having gotten every pieces of the 1st WHM artifact gear (minus the shirt obviously), using jewelry that ranged anywhere between 28-47 with a level 41 weapon. They had used what few CDs they had available and was actually able to hold it together for that 2nd pull but only by the skin of their teeth. That couldn't have been fun to experience, especially for a 1st timer in arguably the worst dungeon in the game. I felt terrible for them having to endure that. Sure, we can blame the tank for it but like, it would be disheartening to say the least if you did everything right and still had a hard time.

I really wish that WHM (and healers in general) got a small overhaul to their starting toolkits so that experiences like that wouldn't really be so difficult for new players.

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The really sad part about this is that the very same pulls are quite easy to heal on all other healers, even if the tank is somewhat squishy or whupsies happen like a dps getting kicked into a frog in the first room or eating an aoe. I had tanks leeroying the first room and it was actually okay. They dropped really low but we survived.
SCH has Whispering Dawn and 3 AF stacks for Lustrate per pull plus Fey Illumination for stronger Adlos and constant fairy auto heals.
AST has much cheaper Benefic II and ED.
SGE has Physis, Druochole, Soteria, slightly cheaper EDiag and at least Kardia heals while they use Physis & Druo.
WHM just has nothing outside Regen and the expensive PoM Cure II spam. Everything in their power is two buttons while being close to finishing ARR.

That's why WHM is a horrible starter healer and I wish people would stop recommending it for people that want to try healer.
SCH starts decently low, has a lot of auto heal through the fairy, gets oGCDs at a good pace and is also available before reaching HW; they start with 3 heal buttons and a fairy, that doesn't exactly require an infinity stone brain to manage. AST is great with ED as long as the player doesn't put too much emphasis on nailing cards at first. Even Sage can be a good starter healer as long as the player does some low level dungeons first like Halatali (Physis) - Haukke (EDiag/ EDosis) - Qarn or Cutter's Cry (Soteria) - Dzemael or AV (Druochole) etc. to have done at least one dungeon per new skill to get used to it.
But WHM just teaches you bad habits for over 50 levels. No healing oGCDs until level 50 and the first one you get is a 3min full HP heal, baiting the player into thinking oGCDs are for emergencies.
MP economy is awful and tempts players to fish for Freecure procs.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

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Still baffles me WHM is the only healer who doesn't learn their main gimmick at level 30 and for some reason has higher level requirements for basic Healing spells.

White Mage has no essential Dignity equivalent (if you can even call it that) till level 60
Cure II is learned 4 levels after Benefic II for... reasons...
Regen delayed by 1 level compared to Aspected Benefic
Medica II delayed by 8 levels compared to Aspected Helios... How is Medica II Conjurers level 50 Capstone... what

Does Square seriously believe giving WHM afflatus and oGCD heals prior to HW would be too complicated for new healers...?

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Still baffles me WHM is the only healer who doesn't learn their main gimmick at level 30 and for some reason has higher level requirements for basic Healing spells.

White Mage has no essential Dignity equivalent (if you can even call it that) till level 60
Cure II is learned 4 levels after Benefic II for... reasons...
Regen delayed by 1 level compared to Aspected Benefic
Medica II delayed by 8 levels compared to Aspected Helios... How is Medica II Conjurers level 50 Capstone... what

Does Square seriously believe giving WHM afflatus and oGCD heals prior to HW would be too complicated for new healers...?

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To add to the list, all of those mentioned spells also have higher MP cost for no good reasons (No, extra 5y radius is not a good reason for that) + MP economy solely dependent on Lucid Dreaming whereas other healers have -something else-.

Moving at least Solace to lv30 or 35 would go a long way but I guess they just have to keep it SiMpLe AnD tErRiBaD cAuSe It’S wHm.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

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And it doesn't have to be that way.
WHM has had a plethora of skills removed from it over the years that could easily be reworked and returned to give WHM a much better leveling experience.
Stoneskin, Protect, Divine Seal, Fluid Aura and even Cleric Stance could all be reworked in some fashion to make the experience so much better and considering that they reworked BLM and SMN from the ground up this expansion, with a soft rework for MNK, it baffles me that similar reworks haven't been done for healers, especially WHM with how barebones it is at lower levels compared to every other healer.

In that situation, IMO WHM actually has the best chances of dealing with such a pull. Why? Holy. I don't know if the WHM used it, but it is what makes WHM the best (easiest) dungeon healer by far.

For the other healers, I think SCH and AST could probably survive that situation as well, but with more effort needed (and I'm not sure if SCH would make it mana-wise). SGE would have (IMO) no chance in hell with the limited spells they have at that level (Kardia, Soteria, (E) Diagnosis, Physis, Druochole).

WHM has issues, definitely. But there's no need to downplay it's strengths either.

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Originally Posted by Sarim

In that situation, IMO WHM actually has the best chances of dealing with such a pull. Why? Holy. I don't know if the WHM used it, but it is what makes WHM the best (easiest) dungeon healer by far.

For the other healers, I think SCH and AST could probably survive that situation as well, but with more effort needed (and I'm not sure if SCH would make it mana-wise). SGE would have (IMO) no chance in hell with the limited spells they have at that level (Kardia, Soteria, (E) Diagnosis, Physis, Druochole).

WHM has issues, definitely. But there's no need to downplay it's strengths either.

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In those situations:
SCH has

• Constant embraces
• Whispering Dawn
• Illumination, boosts fairy's Embrace & SCH's Adlos when needed.
• Obviously Adlo itself and its critlo probability.
• Three Lustrates. They heal great deal of health at that level range. Aetherflow is also keeping their MP healthy alongside Lucid.
• Save when needing to Adlo, SCH can constantly slap the ground, helping the party to melt the mobs faster.

AST has

• Essential Dignity. This heals tanks to almost, if not full at that level range when used properly.
• Asp Benefic.
• Asp Helios, which can be stacked on tank with Asp Benefic for the beefy regen, prolonging the 'safe period' where you can keep spamming Gravities.
• Cards to buff DPSes & keeps their MP healthy if they need to start spamming Benefic II. If that's even needed at all.
• Obviously Benefic II itself.

SGE has

• Constant Kardion heals.
• Soteria
• Physis
• Three Druochole, same deal with SCH's Lustrates. They will also very likely to gain the 4th in the same pull.
• Their addersgall usage keeps their MP healthy.
• Phlegma. Two strong AoE to help melt the enemies & is entirely mobile like their spammable AoE shower.
• E.Diagnosis and its crit chance.

WHM has

• Holy, coupled with PoM possibly.
• Regen
• Cure II
• Freecure...?
• MP? Just Lucid, nothing else.

Nobody's really "downplaying" WHM's capabilities, it's just how noticeable the stark disadvantage WHM have in that specific level range. No matter how you put it, WHM will always be the first healer who has to lose something sooner when compared to other healers.

Also tanks have to watch when to use short cooldowns like Arm's Length or TBN, and them and melee won't be able to use Low Blow/Leg Sweep to stop an AoE once the mob's immune to stun

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Originally Posted by Sarim

In that situation, IMO WHM actually has the best chances of dealing with such a pull. Why? Holy. I don't know if the WHM used it, but it is what makes WHM the best (easiest) dungeon healer by far.

For the other healers, I think SCH and AST could probably survive that situation as well, but with more effort needed (and I'm not sure if SCH would make it mana-wise). SGE would have (IMO) no chance in hell with the limited spells they have at that level (Kardia, Soteria, (E) Diagnosis, Physis, Druochole).

WHM has issues, definitely. But there's no need to downplay it's strengths either.

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Holy is a band-aid and doesn't solve the issue, it only helps to cover up the flaw that low level WHM has nothing to help it heal with when crap hits the fan. Yes, it's a great skill but the fact was that I doubt the tank would've survived if the WHM stopped to use Holy at all. I did see they had to burn Swiftcast on Cure 2 just to keep the Tank alive mid transit on the pull after the 2nd boss and there wasn't really time to cast holy with the volume of enemies. The 1st pull they might have been able to use a Swiftcast holy but I don't expect a new player to really pull off something like that. One of the most common pieces of advice new players receive for Healers is to not DPS until you feel comfortable doing so, so I can't fault them for not using Holy.

As for the other healers, SCH has Aetherflow at that level so they'd have less MP issues then WHM.
SGE can heal on the go so it kind of comes down to how much the SGE can switch between rotating DPS and heals

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

In those situations:

Nobody's really "downplaying" WHM's capabilities, it's just how noticeable the stark disadvantage WHM have in that specific level range. No matter how you put it, WHM will always be the first healer who has to lose something sooner when compared to other healers.

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Well SCH sure has Aetherflow. But you will probably use it early in the fight, to even have access to your lustrates. Meaning you won't have it after that, so no mana recovery for you, sorry (assuming you started with fairly full mana, its even wasted). Unless the fight lasts longer than 60s. And I'm not sure I would want to rely on crit adlos tbh.

AST can use Lightspeed and lower mana costs, and get some mana back using card draws (and if you're so daring that you actually switch to a different player to play the card, when your tank's life is on the line, you have my admiration)! ED is nice sure, but again its on a 40s CD. I'm not sure if I would be casting Asp. Helios in a tight situation just to get higher regen ticks...not sure it would help enough to be worth the trouble/time.

SGE won't be dpsing because well, tight situation and you have to keep your tank up! So...do you cast a dps spell for a measly 170 potency heal (? not sure exact amount at that level, but even with Soteria its not that much better), or a real heal spell? I know which I would use. So forget about those Kardion ticks. Druochole is nice, yes. And against many mobs the fight will probably be long enough to get a fourth one, true. But still, beyond that you will have to spam (E.) Diagnosis and hope for the best.

WHM only has regen and cure II, true. And while Holy helps a lot, if your tank pulls that much (and your DPS cannot keep up), then the WHM will have to fall back on those two heals and Lucid after the third Holy and hope for the best.

Again, I'm not saying WHM is super and everything is great, I would also love to have more tools available earlier. But there is no real "disadvantage" in this situation. The WHM has the tools to overcome the situation, and IMO it can even do so better than some of the other healers.

Holy is an absolute monster in Aurum Vale. WHM absolutely has issues but for the most part using Regen while pulling and proceeding to Holy spam right from the get go is very good. If the tank is losing too much HP during Holy spam you can cast Cure 2 between the Holy stuns. If the WHM wasn't spamming Holy they were not doing everything within their power to keep the tank alive.

That said WHM absolutely needs improvements for low levels but trash pulls should not be that much of an issue at that point when Holy exists. If they were spamming Holy and the trash pull managed to last long enough or the tank still took too much damage than someone else was doing something wrong and other healers would have likely struggled as well.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Holy is a band-aid and doesn't solve the issue, it only helps to cover up the flaw that low level WHM has nothing to help it heal with when crap hits the fan. Yes, it's a great skill but the fact was that I doubt the tank would've survived if the WHM stopped to use Holy at all. I did see they had to burn Swiftcast on Cure 2 just to keep the Tank alive mid transit on the pull after the 2nd boss and there wasn't really time to cast holy with the volume of enemies. The 1st pull they might have been able to use a Swiftcast holy but I don't expect a new player to really pull off something like that. One of the most common pieces of advice new players receive for Healers is to not DPS until you feel comfortable doing so, so I can't fault them for not using Holy.

As for the other healers, SCH has Aetherflow at that level so they'd have less MP issues then WHM.
SGE can heal on the go so it kind of comes down to how much the SGE can switch between rotating DPS and heals

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You are right in that Holy is a bandaid really. And I think it's the big thing that keeps the devs from making any significant changes to WHM. But still, as long as its there, it will give WHM the edge over the other healers in a situation as you described.

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Originally Posted by ManaSel

Holy is an absolute monster in Aurum Vale. WHM absolutely has issues but for the most part using Regen while pulling and proceeding to Holy spam right from the get go is very good. If the tank is losing too much HP during Holy spam you can cast Cure 2 between the Holy stuns. If the WHM wasn't spamming Holy they were not doing everything within their power to keep the tank alive.

That said WHM absolutely needs improvements for low levels but trash pulls should not be that much of an issue at that point when Holy exists. If they were spamming Holy and the trash pull managed to last long enough or the tank still took too much damage than someone else was doing something wrong and other healers would have likely struggled as well.

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Assuming the exact same scenario on all healers, minus any AoE casts, I think SGE would have an equally difficult time as WHM, while AST and SCH would have slightly easier times.

A SCH has free regen via embrace, with Whispering Dawn, Fey Illumination and Lustrates to help offset their Addlo spam.

An AST has cheaper spells to WHM on top of ED so the same scenario would have much less of an affect on AST's MP, even if they fully ignore their cards.

SGE would have Physis and Druochole, which would help with their MP but the lack of their regen via Kardia (and by extension Soteria) would keep whatever benefits they had to a minimal.

Here's something to consider though. WHM used to have Divine Seal for Aurum Vale. All the way up to SB, they had it in one form or another and it wasn't until ShB that they locked it behind level 80 as Temperance. While Largesse was also available to SCH and AST, the fact is they never really had access to it prior to SB and thus were never impacted by its removal at lower levels whereas it does negatively impact WHM because they used to have it at those levels and don't any more. Simply returning Divine Seal as a low level version of Temperance would at least offset that experience without really affecting the overall balance of the game. It would make the level 71-80 grind on WHM slightly more forgiving but that's the only area of the game it would affect and really, WHM didn't have any problem with that level range to start with so it wouldn't really matter there.

After the reduction of the filler spell GCD to 1.5s, Pressence of Mind is pretty useless outside of Rez (maybe holy spam)

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

After the reduction of the filler spell GCD to 1.5s, Pressence of Mind is pretty useless outside of Rez (maybe holy spam)

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Recast is still 2.5 so PoM serves the same function as before.

Not to mention that DoTs and HoTs cast during PoM still tick every 2s instead of 2.5s even after PoM expires. I don't get the notion of it being useless at all.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Not to mention that DoTs and HoTs cast during PoM still tick every 2s instead of 2.5s even after PoM expires. I don't get the notion of it being useless at all.

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That's a first. Never heard of HoTs and DoTs ticking faster due to spell speed (or PoM). Not saying it's wrong, but I am suspect.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

That's a first. Never heard of HoTs and DoTs ticking faster due to spell speed (or PoM). Not saying it's wrong, but I am suspect.

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It'd be the first I'd heard it too. Last I checked spell speed increases the damage/healing of HoTs and DoTs, not the tick rate. It's always once every three second server tick. Not only that, but PoM doesn't increase DoT/HoT damage either. It reduces recast by 20%; it's a direct reduction to your GCD, not an increase to spellspeed that would have the same effect.

SpS affects HoT and DoT value per tick but not the intervalls at which they tick; that's how it worked in WoW but in FFXIV they tick at server tick rate and that is fixed.
Any recast time reduction affect neither HoTs nor DoTs, though. So PoM does absolutely nothing for Regen, Asylum etc.

And regarding Sage healing these pulls: shielding on the run and 3 Addersgall stacks + Physis + Sorteria while you dps is plenty to get a lot of aoes out until you're forced to EDiag spam. By then, the mobs lost a good chunk of HP and you'll soon get a new Addersgall stack. Lustrate/ Druo is extremely strong in this level range and readily available every pull.
Sage doesn't have any trouble healing these pulls in AV.

Meanwhile you CAN clear all content, but P3S highly favors AST over WHM for sure.

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Originally Posted by Sarim

snippity.

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AST’s Lightspeed has been reworked since 5.3 and onward: it no longers reduces MP cost. It’s purely mobility tool now that reduce all cast time by 2.5s. This DOES NOT make you cast anything faster. All this does is to frontload the next heal. If any, Lightspeed can be used to make it easier to weave your cards to your party with longer weaving window without clipping.

Essential being at 40s cooldown literally means it will -always- be available for 1 use every single pull. This is an advantage ASTs have over WHM because they can Gravity few more before they need to fall back to use Benefic II. Stacking asp helios regen at this level range may be a controversial method, but it adds a decent, comfy period of 300p regen for the tank of where you can safely push out more Gravities. Of course you’re not going to frontload these regens in middle of pull.

SGE’s Kardion has never been intended as their ‘main healing’ actions. It works like a maintenance healing but it adds up over time, similarly like SCH’s constant fairy embraces. The difference is SGE are rewarded more if they’re playing aggressively (to my opinion, they should). Do not underestimate Kardion/Embrace healing, they usually adds up to disgusting portion of SCH/SGE’s total healing. By the time you’ve exhausted third Druochole most of the mobs would’ve been dead or close to dying, there won’t be any need to ‘spam E.Diagnosis and hope for the best.’ This goes the same for SCHs too. Unless… if both DPSes are single targeting.

With all that I’ll have to respectfully disagree with your last paragraph. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying ”LoL wHm CaN’t Do AnYtHiNg.”. I just genuinely feel devs are too scared in making their favorite healer job a liiitttle bit smoother and decided to put these weird limitations vs other healers cause it’s ‘simpler’. If it’s simpler then why make it harder vs the other? :(

This is why I’ve stopped suggesting newcomer healer to start with WHM…

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

AST’s Lightspeed has been reworked since 5.3 and onward: it no longers reduces MP cost. It’s purely mobility tool now that reduce all cast time by 2.5s. This DOES NOT make you cast anything faster. All this does is to frontload the next heal. If any, Lightspeed can be used to make it easier to weave your cards to your party with longer weaving window without clipping.

Essential being at 40s cooldown literally means it will -always- be available for 1 use every single pull. This is an advantage ASTs have over WHM because they can Gravity few more before they need to fall back to use Benefic II. Stacking asp helios regen at this level range may be a controversial method, but it adds a decent, comfy period of 300p regen for the tank of where you can safely push out more Gravities. Of course you’re not going to frontload these regens in middle of pull.

SGE’s Kardion has never been intended as their ‘main healing’ actions. It works like a maintenance healing but it adds up over time, similarly like SCH’s constant fairy embraces. The difference is SGE are rewarded more if they’re playing aggressively (to my opinion, they should). Do not underestimate Kardion/Embrace healing, they usually adds up to disgusting portion of SCH/SGE’s total healing. By the time you’ve exhausted third Druochole most of the mobs would’ve been dead or close to dying, there won’t be any need to ‘spam E.Diagnosis and hope for the best.’ This goes the same for SCHs too. Unless… if both DPSes are single targeting.

With all that I’ll have to respectfully disagree with your last paragraph. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying ”LoL wHm CaN’t Do AnYtHiNg.”. I just genuinely feel devs are too scared in making their favorite healer job a liiitttle bit smoother and decided to put these weird limitations vs other healers cause it’s ‘simpler’. If it’s simpler then why make it harder vs the other? :(

This is why I’ve stopped suggesting newcomer healer to start with WHM…

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Stacking Soteria with either Physis or kerachole once it has its hot component is actually a pretty strong combo on the tank in pulls. Soteria alone turns Kardias healing potency into a wooping 255 every gcd, so you have either have 385 potency healing every tick plus a healing buff where I'm not sure how it interacts with both spells or still 355 potency healing with an additional 10% mitigation buff.

I don't think Holy's cast time is an issue - it's working as intended. Holy has a stun while the other AoE damage spells for healers do not, and its very OP for that. It makes dungeon healing much clunkier, but ironically makes lilies better as you can use them to weave. If they reduced Holy's cast they would remove the stun and I think no one wants that.

WHM right now just has bizarre disparities with AST. Cure 2 costs 1000mp for an 800 potency heal... Benefic 2 costs 700 MP for an 800 potency heal. They're identical. In fact, AST has a shorter cast time - if anything Benefic 2 should cost more! It's like this for all WHM and AST's basic heals and it just looks insane, especially when AST has incredible MP recovery and doesn't need the reduced cost.

Even if AST didn't have Astrodyne, it would have Draw for 500 MP every 30 seconds. WHM has Thin Air for 400MP every 60 seconds, and it has nothing extra. Of course I hold a single Thin Air stack for raises or medicas, but in reality the vast VAST majority of Thin Air usage goes on cooldown on Glare. It's extremely poor. With this said, I don't have MP issues unless things go wrong... in which case my MP doesn't recover for 3 minutes, I simply don't have the capacity to regenerate mana faster than I spend it.

I feel like WHM's problems right now are just its kit doesn't fit together, and the current focus on making healing 'easy' while ignoring players who like to optimise and do high end content has left WHM in a very odd place. WHM feels fine to play casually, but if you are trying to optimise it feels awful. You actively DON'T want to use your lilies unless in downtime. The 1.5 cast time has done wonders for WHM, as it can now actually use previously unused abilities like Plenary Indulgence, but as lilies cannot be weaved and Misery is a huge loss it makes them vastly worse.

Liturgy is beautiful and theoretically powerful, but in practice there are very little places you can get its potential out, which makes using it feel bad. Because of its long cooldown and short use period, you can't even use it on all of these places. You pick a specific moment where it will get as much use as possible (P3S add phase) and then work around it (meaning I'm hilariously using it immediately at the start of the fight on the raidwide and... the tankbuster?). It just isn't satisfying and is very frustrating.

That's enough rambling but these are my thoughts to fix all this:

1. Liturgy CD reduction OR lasts longer OR activates on anyone taking damage, not just the WHM (literally any one of these buffs, not even all of them, would make it so much better)
2. Don't lose lilies when you die. AST and SGE keep their resources and SCH can recover them quickly with Dissipation, WHM has poor MP recovery as it is without being forced to Cure 2 after dying
3. Assize MP buff in line with SCH Aetherflow (so 8% MP or so?) - this would hugely help WHM's MP
4. Change WHM's MP costs (Cure 2, etc) to match AST's - there is no reason for them to cost more
5. Misery potency buff in line with Glare - lilies are good again!!! I also liked the earlier suggestion of Misery costing two lilies as another option, would allow for a lot more strategic Miseries
6. An Aetherflow style buff icon for lilies to show my cohealer how many I have. This is just quality of life and not an actual problem but it would help so much. Often other healers assume WHM can instantly fix things with its powerful heals but when we have no resources, it's actually very difficult...

I'm levelling AST right now but to be honest I'm enjoying it a lot less than I would be if I wasn't thinking 'I should be maining AST instead of WHM'. There is fun in AST but I don't super love the gimmick and I'm not ready to let WHM go, but I might if there aren't any changes... the changes are all very simple fixes that wouldn't make the job more difficult for newbies and casual players. They would make it easier and more fun for everyone.

The other healers are in amazing spots right now (super super happy with SCH this expansion!!) and it would just be perfect if WHM could have a few adjustments to get on their level.

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Originally Posted by execlinca

I don't think Holy's cast time is an issue - it's working as intended. Holy has a stun while the other AoE damage spells for healers do not, and its very OP for that. It makes dungeon healing much clunkier, but ironically makes lilies better as you can use them to weave. If they reduced Holy's cast they would remove the stun and I think no one wants that.

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Let me tell you why the cast time on Holy not being adjusted is a problem. The stun is NOT indefinite. You get 3 stuns before enemies become immune and at that point you are constantly having to move in order to avoid any potential AoEs that are thrown at your position, meaning that because of the 2.5s cast time, you usually end up having to cancel your AoE in order to not get hit and potentially killed in a trash pull. None of the other healers have this issue. SCH and SGE's are instant cast and can get out of the way no problem and AST is ranged and was never a problem to begin with. WHM loses out on damage every time it has to move for its AoE and for the healer that's entire purpose is damage is crap design, especially when it's already bad enough that you have to wait an extra second for the actual stun to take effect due to the animation delay.

I fail to see how exactly a 1.5s cast time on Holy would be OP.
The recast timer is still 2.5s so other than getting that stun out 1s earlier, it doesn't really change anything.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Let me tell you why the cast time on Holy not being adjusted is a problem. The stun is NOT indefinite. You get 3 stuns before enemies become immune and at that point you are constantly having to move in order to avoid any potential AoEs that are thrown at your position, meaning that because of the 2.5s cast time, you usually end up having to cancel your AoE in order to not get hit and potentially killed in a trash pull. None of the other healers have this issue. SCH and SGE's are instant cast and can get out of the way no problem and AST is ranged and was never a problem to begin with. WHM loses out on damage every time it has to move for its AoE and for the healer that's entire purpose is damage is crap design, especially when it's already bad enough that you have to wait an extra second for the actual stun to take effect due to the animation delay.

I fail to see how exactly a 1.5s cast time on Holy would be OP.
The recast timer is still 2.5s so other than getting that stun out 1s earlier, it doesn't really change anything.

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I know what you're saying, but to adjust Holy's cast time they would have to add that special something to other healer's AoE (which they said they would I'm sure? But it didn't materialise).

It's just a bit more difficult to use, which is fair when the stun is so powerful. It shouldn't be as effortless as AST. I don't think it would be balanced to be the same cast time as AST while AST doesn't have any additional power (sure, I would accept Holy being ranged instead? It would probably match better since both shield healers are melee). Not that I think AST needs buffing right now, I just think asking for 1.5 cast time on Holy is one of the things that seems excessive and could easily make the devs ignore the other criticisms that are much bigger issues.

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, White Mage was the weakest of the healers by a hilarious margin, but yet still any suggestion to make it stronger is met with "but you have to be careful, or White Mage could become OP!"

Thank god the developers are so careful to make sure WHM doesn't become OP. In fact they're so careful that it's got frequent flyer miles on weakest-in-role.

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Originally Posted by execlinca

I know what you're saying, but to adjust Holy's cast time they would have to add that special something to other healer's AoE (which they said they would I'm sure? But it didn't materialise).

It's just a bit more difficult to use, which is fair when the stun is so powerful. It shouldn't be as effortless as AST. I don't think it would be balanced to be the same cast time as AST while AST doesn't have any additional power (sure, I would accept Holy being ranged instead? It would probably match better since both shield healers are melee). Not that I think AST needs buffing right now, I just think asking for 1.5 cast time on Holy is one of the things that seems excessive and could easily make the devs ignore the other criticisms that are much bigger issues.

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I don't see Holy's stun as powerful. I see it as a necessity to offset WHM's lack of oGCDs. The other healers have a plethora of oGCD heals that offset the lack of a secondary effect on their AoE skills, while posing little to no risk to them due to their nature of being instant cast or ranged. Holy in comparison has the longest cast time, making it much more riskier to use while also lacking the oGCDs of the other healers to at least minimize the need to stop using Holy once the stun is no longer in effect. Once Holy's stun is used up, you have to clip what few oGCD heals you have in order to try and continue using Holy but if any AoE attacks come at you, you have to cancel your cast and move, essentially wasting what opportunity your oGCD would have offered since you had to delay your cast even more than the clipping of the oGCD alone.

At this point, whatever advantage Holy used to have is lost beneath the waves of oGCD that other healers have at their disposal and the saddest part about it is that the Devs are so terrified of touching WHM because it's the most "popular" healer and think any changes would cause it to drop in popularity so they just ignore it.

If anything shortening Holy's cast would put it on par with Astro's Gravity, which has a shorter cast and is ranged.

I think the current MP cost of CureII would be more acceptable if it charges the Blood Lily and/or Freecure was a 100% proc and/or Freecure worked on/gets procced by more than just CureII.

Also, instead of Liturgy being on a long CD with 5 stacks that we rarely fully use, have something charge up stocks for it and allow the ability to be used whenever it has a stock or two. Then have using Liturgy spend all stocks you have at once, converting them to the number of stacks it has.