Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

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Originally Posted by lezard21

This is mostly because millenials don't know what a book or movie is, unless it's some high school robot waifu manga or Marvel Super Hero Movie #3884. Whenever they consume any other media outside of these 2 genres it's suddenly the best written literary masterpiece ever (ie. Squid Games)

Then there's also copium making them unable to accept that the thing they like might be flawed and accept it despite it's flaws. It's either perfect or WoW. No inbetweens.

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I spend most of my non gaming time reading(I don't read comic books, most of my reading is historical non-fiction these days) , am a millennial, and I still enjoyed the games story.

Also, anyone who uses the word copium unironically obviously can't be taken seriously.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

This is mostly because millenials don't know what a book or movie is, unless it's some high school robot waifu manga or Marvel Super Hero Movie #3884. Whenever they consume any other media outside of these 2 genres it's suddenly the best written literary masterpiece ever (ie. Squid Games)

Then there's also copium making them unable to accept that the thing they like might be flawed and accept it despite it's flaws. It's either perfect or WoW. No inbetweens.

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Those gosh darn millenials don't know no books nor no filmses. They're so busy with their avacado toast and human rights protests they don't know that Clerks and Fight Club and Show Girls are the best pieces film and literature of all time. AND STAR WARS BEFORE IT WAS WOKE!!! RABBLERABLERABLE

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I spend most of my non gaming time reading, am a millennial, and I still enjoyed the games story.

Also, anyone who uses the word copium unironically obviously can't be taken seriously.

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So, if he said "coping mechanism" instead of "copium" then you would take it seriously? Honestly, your post is literally the definition of coping.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

So, if he said "coping mechanism" instead of "copium" then you would take it seriously? Honestly, your post is literally the definition of coping.

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LOL. W/e. Apparently having different tastes is coping now. Apparently our opinions aren't valid but yours are because you agree the story is terrible? Talk about bad takes....

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

LOL. W/e. Apparently having different tastes is coping now. Apparently our opinions aren't valid but yours are because you agree the story is terrible? Talk about bad takes....

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?? When did I say that? I mostly enjoyed the story minus a few things. Looks like someones trying to put words in other people's mouths.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

?? When did I say that? I mostly enjoyed the story minus a few things. Looks like someones trying to put words in other people's mouths.

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He literally said millenials never read or watch movies that aren't anime or super heroes. And we're the ones who are "coping".

The reason I assumed that is because you are agreeing with someone who seems to hate the fact that they are playing this game (I can only imagine their friends enjoy it so they feel forced to be here)

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

He literally said millenials never read or watch movies that aren't anime or super heroes. And we're the ones who are "coping".

The reason I assumed that is because you are agreeing with someone who seems to hate the fact that they are playing this game (I can only imagine their friends enjoy it so they feel forced to be here)

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I don't understand. Where in this thread did I say I agreed with him? I'm just pointing out your strange logic about "anyone who uses the word copium unironically obviously can't be taken seriously."

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

I don't understand. Where in this thread did I say I agreed with him? I'm just pointing out your strange logic about "anyone who uses the word copium unironically obviously can't be taken seriously."

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Sigh. Have you ever had a decent conversation with anyone using that word? I certainly haven't.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Sigh. Have you ever had a decent conversation with anyone using that word? I certainly haven't.

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Yes. Copium is essentially shorthand for coping mechanism. I wouldn't disregard someone's argument just because they decided to use a shorter version of a term.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

I don't understand. Where in this thread did I say I agreed with him? I'm just pointing out your strange logic about "anyone who uses the word copium unironically obviously can't be taken seriously."

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I mean that isn't even the only reason in the quote that makes it obvious that it shouldn't be taken seriously. Generalizing those horrible "millenials" saying they don't read books or as an entire generation only like manga and marvel comics, don't know what movies are and then referencing squid game for the sole reason it's trending on Netflix was enough to dismiss the post as entirely ridiculous.

I think the user you're starting a fight with responded to the whole "copium" thing because the of hypocrisy of literally parroting a current memeword while acting like current trends in story telling are beneath them. But then it could just be because it's a ridiculous statement all on it's own.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

?? When did I say that? I mostly enjoyed the story minus a few things. Looks like someones trying to put words in other people's mouths.

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She does that a lot unfortunately. Sorry you had to deal with that. :c

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Originally Posted by Exosapien

I mean that isn't even the only reason in the quote that makes it obvious the shouldn't be taken seriously. Generalizing those horrible "millenials" saying they don't read books or as an entire generation only like manga and marvel comics, don't know what movies are and then referencing squid game for the sole reason it's trending on Netflix was enough to dismiss the post as entirely ridiculous.

I think the user you're starting a fight with responded to the whole "copium" thing because the of hypocrisy of literally parroting a current memeword while acting like current trends in story telling are beneath them. But then it could just be because it's a ridiculous statement all on it's own.

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His argument is rough around the edges, almost brash in a way, but I understand his point. There are FFXIV fans out there who don't understand what a good story or good story telling is, and they say this game is pretty much perfect. No, millennials and MCU aren't entirely to blame for that, and there's obviously other factors.

But to disregard his argument because of his attitude and his use of the word "copium" is a coping mechanism in itself. It just seems that the person who dismissed his argument using that reasoning doesn't want to address the reality that this game's story has flaws.

The best way to understand this time travel is basically:

If we never went back in time, Venat must have lost hope in the ancients, and thus decided to stop The Final Days as per told of how she finds the People as the Heart of Etherys, not Zodiark. Her boundless love would've decided to sunder them anyway so people will find their own way forward. Thus, she becomes Hyadelyn, and is only somewhat close to Azem. However, we could still be her Champion as we are Azem's Sundered self. Even if we weren't, she would still bestow a blessing to us - as a traveler's ward (Azem being the traveler).

Hyadelyn must have elected a bunch of people as the WoL, and we were one of them, being 9/14 of Azem. By the events of Shadowbringers, she would've been too weak to continue to talk to us. However, we'd still be able to determine a way forward with Elidibus as the catalyst /energy source to go back in time and learn more about the Final Days, or a way to Summon Zodiark to once again Forestall the Final Days if everything fails. Thus, sets the moment Venat would learn about the truth, and thus she will no doubt become Hyadelyn and set us towards this path (which inevitably becomes our Endwalker expansion). With the events leading up to the Final Days, she could've tried to learn as much as she could before the Final Days happen, and with whatever clues she gets, she sends them toward us in the future (thus we learn about Elpis). This setup creates the pre-destined timeloop that then takes place in Endwalker.

Again, this storytelling works only because Venat has a greater love for mankind in general, not just towards the Ancients. Because of her love, she wouldn't purposely alter the future so we wouldn't exist and they would be able to remove the Final Days. She chose to consign to people to suffer, so WE could pave a way forward. That's how our timeline "converged" so to speak - she kept her peace and made sure she wouldn't do things that would inevitably alter the timeline so she'd meet with us again in a very very distant future. That's also why her cutscene felt so strong and powerful for me. If there was ever a starting point, Venat would do it again to save mankind.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

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The thing is she could’ve saved her people. She chose not to even give them a chance that’s the problem a lot of people have with her thought process. It rings incredibly hollow especially so that she didn’t seem to care much for the other shards, as she was willing to leave them and only let the source be saved via the moon. So her “love” rings hollow when she constantly preaches about her children but then wouldn’t give her own people a fighting chance and instead lied and kept secrets from them. It just seems like a way to further empower the sundered people which, in reality it was a minority of them who did anything about Meteion. The majority were still vulnerable like the ancients.Of course everyone is free to their thoughts just wanted to give my 2c :)

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The thing is she could’ve saved her people. She chose not to even give them a chance that’s the problem a lot of people have with her thought process. It rings incredibly hollow especially so that she didn’t seem to care much for the other shards, as she was willing to leave them and only let the source be saved via the moon. So her “love” rings hollow when she constantly preaches about her children but then wouldn’t give her own people a fighting chance and instead lied and kept secrets from them. It just seems like a way to further empower the sundered people which, in reality it was a minority of them who did anything about Meteion. The majority were still vulnerable like the ancients.Of course everyone is free to their thoughts just wanted to give my 2c :)

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That's what I thought, but how could she save her people? In the closed timeloop, there's a chance if she told people like Emet, Emet would involve Hermes and then Hermes would have a chance to remember the events that happened. Remember what she said, Hermes is needed to deal with the incoming calamities, not only the calamity of the Final Days. She couldn't risk the problem of Hermes betraying the Ancients at that point in time before the Final Days happen, nor can the convocation capture and require Hermes to reveal everything he knows about Dynamis -- especially since Hermes was going to be on the Seat of Fandaniel and that position alone has its own responsibilities. So she could plan around that event and gather hope to confront the Final Days (which... failed according to the cutscene, hence she sundered everyone to give hope).

For the part of the Final Days dying, I'm quite sure the "Moon" wasn't really so much of a failsafe for us. The three things we need to be aware of is that:

1. In the normal events, Zodiark should've never been freed (much less died) before all the shards are rejoined and the Loporrits were mobilized. It would make sense to only make a failsafe for the Source only, then. It would make sense that Hyadelyn would tell the Loporrits the denizens of Etheriys were gigantic, as mankind failed to get an answer and the ancients aren't going to be able to do any better since they can't interact with Dynamis as easily, which led to the option of fleeing. She believed that we would've eventually became rejoined and whole and the Ascians had won, had Zodiark broke free and the Final Days were upon us. Zodiark can only Forestall the Final Days. He wasn't a solution to the Final Days itself.

Up until the time Zodiark died, Hyadelyn wasn't able to talk to the Loporrits because she had directed all her energies into sealing Zodiark and talking to us (in the few times she can talk to us), nor had a reason to do so.

2. Even though she is an ancient with vast amounts of Aether, she still has a limit. Some of her Aether is tied to keeping Zodiark back, the other part is kept in reserve for the final trial. Her sundering also differed between each shard. As we learned, the First had light in most sway, while the Thirteenth had the least amount of light. We learn Hyadelyn's power is the weakest in the Thirteenth shard, which also leads me to believe she simply doesn't have enough power to keep the shards safe either from the very beginning, much less create a moon big enough for all the inhabitants while keeping Zodiark in check. It is more apt to say- the shards were doomed to fall in the beginning, and stopping Zodiark is only a temporary measure before the rejoinings finally kill her and all the worlds converged back to the Source. She can try to help them and delay the rejoining, but she just doesn't have the power to save everything. She was destined to die and the only thing she can change is delaying the inevitable by giving mankind more time to survive and find an answer. She simply didn't have the aether to create another moon and ship for the other shards.

3. The final thing to know is that... Midgardsomr arrived long after Etheriys was sundered. That meant Hyadelyn only learned of Etheriys as the "Last Bastion of Hope" much later after she made the moon. So uhh.... yeah. The moon option was more or less a last ditch effort, and one that she rather not choose if she had the ability to do so. She spent her energies strengthening us instead.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

The best way to understand this time travel is basically:

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Time travel isn't real, there is nothing to understand. They can make up whatever rule they want, like you can only travel back in time to any Tuesday where a Loporrit used a green hat but not any other day. The thing is the bare minimum you have to do if you want to use a lazy plot advancing tool like time travel is to stay consistent to those rules you yourself established.

In ShB we have cat husband traveling back in time to avert the apocalypse. He stays in the past for 100 years and never once mentions the fact about going back to his time or being on a timer to fulfill his mission. After he succeeds he does mention that he is surprised he didn't poof into non existance and arrives to the conclusion that they created a separate timeline, while his own post apocaliptic timeline still exists somewhere.

Then in EW time travel is suddenly a 2-way rotating door but you can't remain in the past for too long and also also you can't change the past to create a separate timeline where the world didn't explode because uuuh..."hey mark, why are we using time travel in the plot again??" "Idk we needed an excuse to shoehorn more Emet Selch into the plot because twitter made a lot of yaoi with him".

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Emet would involve Hermes and then Hermes would have a chance to remember the events that happened. Remember what she said, Hermes is needed to deal with the incoming calamities, not only the calamity of the Final Days. She couldn't risk the problem of Hermes betraying the Ancients at that point in time before the Final Days happen, nor can the convocation capture and require Hermes to reveal everything he knows about Dynamis

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Why not? The reason why the Echo doesn't solve all the WoL problems is because the WoL can't control it and happens at random, but Venat was shown to be able to use it at will. Surely they have other mind probing methods in the past. Not to mention that Hermes' involvement in the resolution of the Final Days can only happen if the Final Days actually happen, an event that does not happen immediately after Meteion leaves Planetos. If Venat warns them early on, even if Hermes decides not to cooperate they can preemptively do something about the whole thing. Hermes resolution happens as a last ditch effort after half the planet had already been destroyed.

And finally, Venat knows what solution Hermes proposes (ie. summon Zodiark to sugar coat the planet in aether) so he really isn't needed.

Had Zodiark not been sabotaged, then it's perfectly possible that he - and the Ancients - could have put up a fight against Meteion. They simply weren't given the option to due to Venat being a saboteur. Yet even a weakened Zodiark served as a barrier against the Final Days. Had Elidibus not been forced to take his leave of Zodiark, the threat of being hijacked would not have been there either.

Personally I've always found time travel to be phoned in whenever it's brought into a story, particularly where FFXIV is concerned. It conveniently works out perfectly for the Scions but never anybody else. Funny, that. It reminds me of how we spent the majority of Shadowbringers being told that the Scions being on the First was incredibly risky and that even if they found a way to make the journey back to the Source, it wouldn't necessarily succeed because of how risky a process it happened to be. Though as has become unfortunately common, there were absolutely no lasting consequences whatsoever.

As for the Sundered? They never would have succeeded in the first place if not for aid provided by the dragons and the Unsundered.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

That's what I thought, but how could she save her people? In the closed timeloop, there's a chance if she told people like Emet, Emet would involve Hermes and then Hermes would have a chance to remember the events that happened. Remember what she said, Hermes is needed to deal with the incoming calamities, not only the calamity of the Final Days. She couldn't risk the problem of Hermes betraying the Ancients at that point in time before the Final Days happen, nor can the convocation capture and require Hermes to reveal everything he knows about Dynamis -- especially since Hermes was going to be on the Seat of Fandaniel and that position alone has its own responsibilities. So she could plan around that event and gather hope to confront the Final Days (which... failed according to the cutscene, hence she sundered everyone to give hope).

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She could literally just tell Emet what happened and why Hermes is a bit of a danger. He knew he was mind wiped. He has a duty to protect the star and it doesn’t matter if he doesn’t believe the person telling him or not he would investigate, they specifically showed us this when we went there and he said that. He didn’t necessarily believe us but due to his duty he had to take precautions and hear us out. Zodiark wasn’t a permanent solution but he could buy them a lot of time, time in which they could figure out how to combat Meteion. She gave up far too soon, she had no hope ironically. She instead decided to risk everything on a plan that wouldn’t come to fruition for 12000 years, instead of just work with her people. Her solution being to split literally everyone she knew apart effectively killing them, as opposed to having hope that they could all come together and live in the end. Sorry but that just rings hollow to all of the themes they’re trying to convey in this expansion. But it’s not only that, but they then decide to try and paint HER as benevolent, meanwhile Zodiark isn’t even hardly mentioned despite him being the main safeguard preventing the final days. It’s all about Hydaelyn and Venat despite her being the reason this entire chaos exists.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Time travel isn't real, there is nothing to understand. They can make up whatever rule they want, like you can only travel back in time to any Tuesday where a Loporrit used a green hat but not any other day. The thing is the bare minimum you have to do if you want to use a lazy plot advancing tool like time travel is to stay consistent to those rules you yourself established.

In ShB we have cat husband traveling back in time to avert the apocalypse. He stays in the past for 100 years and never once mentions the fact about going back to his time or being on a timer to fulfill his mission. After he succeeds he does mention that he is surprised he didn't poof into non existance and arrives to the conclusion that they created a separate timeline, while his own post apocaliptic timeline still exists somewhere.

Then in EW time travel is suddenly a 2-way rotating door but you can't remain in the past for too long and also also you can't change the past to create a separate timeline where the world didn't explode because uuuh..."hey mark, why are we using time travel in the plot again??" "Idk we needed an excuse to shoehorn more Emet Selch into the plot because twitter made a lot of yaoi with him".

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No, in ShB, he never mentions about going back in his time because he wants to change the future - to avert the calamity. This is fully understood as creating a separate timeline - because the calamity that changed many lives and caused a shard to be rejoined never happened.

In the Endwalker timeline, the only main thing that changed is the events that led up to the Final Days. The Final Days itself never changed.
The way SE tells the story, Time travel really works in 2 ways. If you know about the butterfly effect, many small things can change the future. That's the multithread theory that doesn't agree with the story.

However, there's also the other theory that if a major event in the timeline doesn't change, the events that led up to it is inconsequential and falls within that timeline. This would be either the "converging point" or " pivot point". This pivot point would be the Final Days - as it pretty much leads to the sundering of everyone at that time. If that pivot point never changes, the future which leads to the present cannot change, and thus the timeline will remain stable. Thus, it leads to Hyadelyn to make sure she doesn't change anything that diverges the timeline to our present point. Hence, our timeline "converged" later on when we came back to the present. In reality, she simply lived through the time we traveled.

This also works inline with Hyadelyn's power - as her laws reside over stability. She could also forced a convergence and stabilized the timeline at the point of sundering too, and it makes sense that sundering actually merged the timelines together as it did a hard reset to the past.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Thus, it leads to Hyadelyn to make sure she doesn't change anything that diverges the timeline to our present point.

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You haven't answered my previous point as to WHY

At the end of Elpis:

- The WoL has gained the knowledge as to how the Final Days happened and he goes back to his own timeline to make use of said knowledge
- Venat can then make use of what she learned to PREVENT the Final Days and save her oh so beloved people, knowing that in doing so she would just create a separate timeline where everyone is saved and the WoL's timeline would remain intact
- She chooses not to. Because (?)

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Originally Posted by lezard21

"hey mark, why are we using time travel in the plot again??" "Idk we needed an excuse to shoehorn more Emet Selch into the plot because twitter made a lot of yaoi with him".

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You have no idea how much this annoys me. I love Emet-Selch but he’s become the new Graha where the devs realize he’s popular so they throw him into everything and it overshadows a lot of people. Elidibus basically lost his entire role and purpose in the story because of Emet sadly…and they threw him in EW again all over the damn place.

Sorry, didn't see your edit until after I replied.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Why not? The reason why the Echo doesn't solve all the WoL problems is because the WoL can't control it and happens at random, but Venat was shown to be able to use it at will. Surely they have other mind probing methods in the past. Not to mention that Hermes' involvement in the resolution of the Final Days can only happen if the Final Days actually happen, an event that does not happen immediately after Meteion leaves Planetos. If Venat warns them early on, even if Hermes decides not to cooperate they can preemptively do something about the whole thing. Hermes resolution happens as a last ditch effort after half the planet had already been destroyed.

And finally, Venat knows what solution Hermes proposes (ie. summon Zodiark to sugar coat the planet in aether) so he really isn't needed.

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The echo was a natural power that the ancients had. Venat was able to use it at will because as another Ascian mentioned (don't remember if it was Elidibus, Lahabrea, or Emet), they could peer into the past at will by reading the surrounding area, even though it's a difficult thing to do. The echo is only a derived fragment of that power. If Memory manipulation was a thing at Fanandiel's time, Kairos would most likely made those memories inaccessible in the surrounding space and past, rendering the natural power of the Ancients useless. Otherwise, Emet would've just went and read the past himself to see the events that happened following to his memory loss.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

She could literally just tell Emet what happened and why Hermes is a bit of a danger. He knew he was mind wiped. He has a duty to protect the star and it doesn’t matter if he doesn’t believe the person telling him or not he would investigate, they specifically showed us this when we went there and he said that. He didn’t necessarily believe us but due to his duty he had to take precautions and hear us out. Zodiark wasn’t a permanent solution but he could buy them a lot of time, time in which they could figure out how to combat Meteion. She gave up far too soon, she had no hope ironically. She instead decided to risk everything on a plan that wouldn’t come to fruition for 12000 years, instead of just work with her people. Her solution being to split literally everyone she knew apart effectively killing them, as opposed to having hope that they could all come together and live in the end. Sorry but that just rings hollow to all of the themes they’re trying to convey in this expansion. But it’s not only that, but they then decide to try and paint HER as benevolent, meanwhile Zodiark isn’t even hardly mentioned despite him being the main safeguard preventing the final days. It’s all about Hydaelyn and Venat despite her being the reason this entire chaos exists.

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Yes, she could tell Emet that Hermes is a danger. However, what then? Emet will obviously question Hermes if he's in doubt, or maybe even deny him his position. He could treat Hermes differently. Hermes is still a needed member of the Convocation. Simply distrusting a member of the Convocation could've changed the future events as well. Hermes could've also found things suspicious and decided to read the past, thereby potentially raising a problem of him turning against the Convocation and working against them in secret. The risk would be too big. The more people who are involved, the bigger the chances of Hermes finding out becomes.


As for Combating Meteion, that was NOT in the Convocation's mind at all. Remember, their goal was to reclaim their paradise. It wasn't to move forward. The events that caused the Final Days made them lose hope. Venat only decided to sunder the world after she realized there was no way to get the Ancients to stop sacrificing themselves to Zodiark to restore their world. Even if they could've used Zodiark to fight against Meteion, before Venat could get the Convocation to sacrifice -half- the inhabitants of the star, they would have to accept that half of the population had to die for this mad plan to succeed. That's utterly unbelievable to anyone who haven't witnessed the Final Days and haven't given into Despair to consider such a plan. Remember, it's half to Summon Zodiark. Then, the remaining half sacrificed themselves to remake the world. Basically, 3/4 of the inhabitants was willing to die to get their paradise back. Something this big of a scale would've had Hermes finding out what happened way earlier and would've betrayed them before it could've succeeded.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

You haven't answered my previous point as to WHY

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- The final day to her is a known catastrophe.
- She also has the assurance that it would be deal with temporary (by Zodiak), and thus the world have time to prepare for it.

Basically by ensuring the timeline does not change, she has a few millennia to prepare both a counter and a contingency plan, which she did, again with the knowledge that the world while suffer greatly during the first Final Day would not risk facing a permanent end. And eventually man kind will grow to a point that they can deal with the threat permanently. If she does anything to change the timeline, then those are no longer guarantee. The threat could have come in a different one where she would be completely blinded side, and world would risk a permanent end.


tl;dr: She wants to deal with a known disaster, and thus can be planed for, rather risking an unknow one.


For example, let's say Hitler could travel back in time and know about D-Day, would he try to make sure it doesn't happen? I would think not, 'cause even if the Allied somehow don't strike on D-Day, it would just mean they would spend all those resources to strike somewhere else, one that he would have no knowledge of. Rather, Hitler would prefer to make sure the D-Day invasion still gonna happen, but he will use that knowledge to make sure his force can counter it.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

As for Combating Meteion, that was NOT in the Convocation's mind at all. Remember, their goal was to reclaim their paradise.

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Because they didn't know the cause. Hence, people are asking why, knowing what we do of time travel splitting into AUs, she did not divulge it. His point is predicated on her sharing that knowledge. Also, leaving aside the speculative parts over whether Kairos would render the Echo unable to access those memories, Hythlodaeus had already meant to ask about the companion that had joined him and Emet during those days. She had potential in-roads. She just chose not to utilise them. The real reason here is the writers wanted to wrap up the story, not create a rationale for an AU, and searching for reasons beyond that is likely to prove a sterile activity. It's just unfortunate that they chose such a convoluted way to do it.

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It wasn't to move forward. The events that caused the Final Days made them lose hope. Venat only decided to sunder the world after she realized there was no way to get the Ancients to stop sacrificing themselves to Zodiark to restore their world.

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Citation needed. I'll save you time and tell you that this isn't quite correct. They were not committed to on-going sacrifices. The first set had driven back the Final Days, and the second set re-established the star's functionality; the final set was to release the ancients within Zodiark and restore them. A possible motive being that they placed value on being able to one day return to the star, and it's not clear they'd be able to do that while in Zodiark. Her reason for disagreement with the Convocation was that she and her faction preferred the new life (unspecified in nature, therefore could just as easily be the sort of creatures being created in Elpis as we now know these could gain souls subject to the right conditions) over her own people as inheritors of the star.

I doubt there's much logic to be attributed to Venat's actions. At the end of the day, she caused her entire race to be wiped out based on her own misguided, biased judgement and because she decided to fawn over an individual who gave her a very biased account of what happened in the future.

She gambled everything on a big 'maybe' and the only reason everything worked out was due to Zodiark's continued barrier against the Final Days and the direct aid provided to the Warrior of Light by two of the three Unsundered Ascians. Which further contributes to it all becoming one needlessly contrived mess.

Then there's her hypocrisy in granting the Warrior of Light the ability to bring the Scions back to life despite criticising her own people for wanting to do the same thing. To say nothing of the fact that the 'power of friendship' trope is pushed as the reason for why the Scions and Warrior of Light succeed.

Yet a very strong friendship was established between Azem, Hythlodaeus and Emet-Selch. Assuming they would be able to get at least some of the Convocation on board with their plan to resist until the very end and work to oppose Meteion...surely they would have stood a solid chance due to their bond and shared love of the Star.

Venat herself even acknowledges that the Sundering itself was an act of cruelty and that were was no justice in the act - so I'm not convinced that it, specifically, factored into her plan directly so much as it ended up being something she misjudged as a necessity.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

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tl;dr: She wants to deal with a known disaster, and thus can be planed for, rather risking an unknow one.


For example, let's say Hitler could travel back in time and know about D-Day, would he try to make sure it doesn't happen? I would think not, 'cause even if the Allied somehow don't strike on D-Day, it would just mean they would spend all those resources to strike somewhere else, one that he would have no knowledge of. Rather, Hitler would prefer to make sure the D-Day invasion still gonna happen, but he will use that knowledge to make sure his force can counter it.

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What do you mean known future for unknown? She has no idea if WoL is going to succeed after WoL returns to their timeline... this as much a 50 - 50 as it was before... WoL came to ask for help, we got more info, but not more power. If she knew the future is safe with us, she would not needed to put us through a final test.

The Ancients seemed very open about whatever we were saying to them. I doubt if the retired Venat would have said her story they would not even try to be open to the opportunity. Even Emet, who was being all angry about him being protrayed as the baddy, even he did try to help figure out the truth.

This whole issue could have been solved, if they made a cutscene where Venat talks to the convocation and explains the situation to them but after a through investigation they decline her or stamp her as "crazy" or something. But even then, when the final days would approach they would surely remember her words...

I think this is a basic issue with time travel stories. They used it inconsistently. Graha could change the future of his past by creating a new one, we could not change the future of the past of Elpis cause story needed to be sad and ending...

It does not mean that it was not a good story, it just has holes that could have been filled in that would perhaps better cover the questions asked.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Because they didn't know the cause. Hence, people are asking why, knowing what we do of time travel splitting into AUs, she did not divulge it. Also, leaving aside the speculative parts over whether Kairos would render the Echo unable to access those memories, Hythlodaeus had already meant to ask about the companion that had joined him and Emet during those days. She had potential in-roads. She just chose not to utilise them.

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That's true. I figured she just didn't have a way to tell them, since Hermes was also traveling with them to Amaurot. It would be more suspicious if she approached Emet and Hythlodaeus and then they wanted to know the truth, including why Hermes wasn't there. Though I'm more inclined to believe what Raven2014 said about she wanted more time to combat a known disaster than an unknown one based on what we told them about how the Final Days was inevitable. It was also unknown how much actual time they had before Meteion caused the Final Days. However, we defeated Emet (which showed we had power to contest with the strongest of the Ancients), so she probably thought it would be better to have more time to plan things out and rely on the ones in the future. She also tested us too. If she didn't have the belief, she probably wouldn't have saved her power for the Final Trial. The other thing to note is that she believed in us probably because we can use Dynamis and the result of the Final Days caused the Ancients to lose control of their Creation Magicks (aka control over aether), so the ancients weren't exactly a reliable source to contend Meteion with.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Citation needed. I'll save you time and tell you that this isn't quite correct. They were not committed to on-going sacrifices. The first set had driven back the Final Days, and the second set re-established the star's functionality; the final set was to release the ancients within Zodiark and restore them. A possible motive being that they placed value on being able to one day return to the star, and it's not clear they'd be able to do that while in Zodiark. Her reason for disagreement with the Convocation was that she and her faction preferred the new life (unspecified in nature, therefore could just as easily be the sort of creatures being created in Elpis) over her own people as inheritors of the star.

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The cutscene in Thou Must Live, Die, and Know.

You can tell everyone ignored Venat's words about moving forward. They simply consigned themselves to offering themselves to Zodiark, depending solely on Zodiark to deliver themselves out of this fate. She disagreed with the Convocation about life, but I'm pretty sure this cutscene was referring to all life on the Star, including the Ancients. Her facial expression went from shock to grit and grief, before she draws her sword. "Let there be no way back. From this temptation, I sunder us."

This temptation, refers to relying on Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Otherwise, Emet would've just went and read the past himself to see the events that happened following to his memory loss.

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They don't need to use that power to find out what happened, they need to use it to find out Hermes' knowledge about Dynamis should he be unwilling to do so.
And again, they don't really need to do that because Venat already knows the solution Hermes will present for the Final Days due to our retelling of the events.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

The cutscene in Thou Must Live, Die, and Know.

You can tell everyone ignored Venat's words about moving forward.

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Yeah, this is perphaps the worst cutscene in the expansion due to the massive retcon it does to fit it's narrative. In ShB we saw the records in Anamnesis Anyder in which Zodiark is summoned and then Venat and her close followers discuss "woops, Zodiark is actually too strong we need to do something".

Here in this cutscene, the Ancients summon Zodiark and Venat goes "ahaha sundering goes brrrrrrrrrrr" immediately afterwards.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

That's true. I figured she just didn't have a way to tell them, since Hermes was also traveling with them to Amaurot. It would be more suspicious if she approached Emet and Hythlodaeus and then they wanted to know the truth, including why Hermes wasn't there. Though I'm more inclined to believe what Raven2014 said about she wanted more time to combat a known disaster than an unknown one based on what we told them about how the Final Days was inevitable. It was also unknown how much actual time they had before Meteion caused the Final Days. However, we defeated Emet (which showed we had power to contest with the strongest of the Ancients), so she probably thought it would be better to have more time to plan things out and rely on the ones in the future. She also tested us too. If she didn't have the belief, she probably wouldn't have saved her power for the Final Trial. The other thing to note is that she believed in us probably because we can use Dynamis and the result of the Final Days caused the Ancients to lose control of their Creation Magicks (aka control over aether), so the ancients weren't exactly a reliable source to contend Meteion with.



The cutscene in Thou Must Live, Die, and Know.

You can tell everyone ignored Venat's words about moving forward. They simply consigned themselves to offering themselves to Zodiark, depending solely on Zodiark to deliver themselves out of this fate. She disagreed with the Convocation about life, but I'm pretty sure this cutscene was referring to all life on the Star, including the Ancients. Her facial expression went from shock to grit and grief, before she draws her sword. "Let there be no way back. From this temptation, I sunder us."

This temptation, refers to relying on Zodiark.

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The cutscene appears to be stylised in nature, but she is describing what occurred after the first stage of sacrifices to forestall the Final Days. There was a second set, that took place after, to revive the star. That is what that scene appears to be referring to, seeing as the skies are still aflame. Here is the established sequence of events. If I were to take it literally, it'd make an even greater mess of the story than it already is and imply outright retcons, on top of which it is utterly ludicrous to expect me to believe this change in sequence in events would not affect the future timeline at all... so I assume they're playing a game of fast-forward to slip her narrative justification for her mindset in. In either case, the timing appears to be before the second set.

I am not surprised that the ancients, still walking upon a star that had been eaten inside out, rejected the platitudes she's babbling about in that cutscene, while providing zero explanation for them.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

They don't need to use that power to find out what happened, they need to use it to find out Hermes' knowledge about Dynamis should he be unwilling to do so.
And again, they don't really need to do that because Venat already knows the solution Hermes will present for the Final Days due to our retelling of the events.



Yeah, this is perphaps the worst cutscene in the expansion due to the massive retcon it does to fit it's narrative. In ShB we saw the records in Anamnesis Anyder in which Zodiark is summoned and then Venat and her close followers discuss "woops, Zodiark is actually too strong we need to do something".

Here in this cutscene, the Ancients summon Zodiark and Venat goes "ahaha sundering goes brrrrrrrrrrr" immediately afterwards.

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Can you link the point in Anamnesis Anyder's cutscene again? I only found this link, which aptly implied they opposed Zodiark because it only forestalled the Final Days, not a means to prevent the calamity (which we didn't know about until Endwalker).

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Originally Posted by Lauront

The cutscene appears to be stylised in nature, but she is describing what occurred after the first stage of sacrifices to forestall the Final Days. There was a second set, that took place after, to revive the star. That is what that scene appears to be referring to, seeing as the skies are still aflame. Here is the established sequence of events. If I were to take it literally, it'd make an even greater mess of the story than it already is and imply outright retcons, on top of which it is utterly ludicrous to expect me to believe this change in sequence in events would not affect the future timeline at all... so I assume they're playing a game of fast-forward to slip her narrative justification for her mindset in. In either case, the timing appears to be before the second set.

I am not surprised that the ancients, still walking upon a star that had been eaten inside out, rejected the platitudes she's babbling about in that cutscene, while providing zero explanation for them.

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It was a retcon. Hythlodaeus sacrified himself to summon Zodiark. We see him in that very cutscene parting ways with Emet to go sacrifice himself.

If you're referring to Hyth in Amaurot, that was a shade Emet created. I might be missing something but that alone would not be inconsistent with him sacrificing himself. If they're meaning to present that whole scene as literal, then yes, it'd be a retcon of multiple sources of info, or at least it'd show her committing her betrayal way before... and at that point I just can't see how it is credible that it won't alter the future timeline.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

The cutscene appears to be stylised in nature, but she is describing what occurred after the first stage of sacrifices to forestall the Final Days. There was a second set, that took place after, to revive the star. That is what that scene appears to be referring to, seeing as the skies are still aflame. Here is the established sequence of events. If I were to take it literally, it'd make an even greater mess of the story than it already is and imply outright retcons, on top of which it is utterly ludicrous to expect me to believe this change in sequence in events would not affect the future timeline at all... so I assume they're playing a game of fast-forward to slip her narrative justification for her mindset in. In either case, the timing appears to be before the second set.

I am not surprised that the ancients, still walking upon a star that had been eaten inside out, rejected the platitudes she's babbling about in that cutscene, while providing zero explanation for them.

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You also have to remember Hythlodaeus in ShB was an incarnation that Emet created, with knowledge of what's going on. It's possible it's not a retcon and Emet simply bestowed Hythlodaeus knowledge of what comes to pass following his death.... though if she really did just up and sunder in one go, it's possible that it's a complete retcon.

But this also really strengthens the theory that Hyadelyn's laws over stability affected the timeline by converging the changed timeline with ours. A plot device for time travel for sure, but at this point, even the final boss manipulates time. Time travel is messy business when we aren't given the full specifics on how the story wants time travel to specifically work. @_@ It could always be handled worse though.

Perhaps in a branching timeline, moments after Venat and the WoL separated, Venat actually works to prevent the Final Days, and because that timeline diverges from ours. Perhaps, we don't see that happening because it's not pertaining to this one? Meanwhile the Venat in our timeline works to forestall the Final Days. Who knows. It's definitely a nightmare to storytell for sure.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

If you're referring to Hyth in Amaurot, that was a shade Emet created. I might be missing something but that alone would not be inconsistent with him sacrificing himself. If they're meaning to present that whole scene as literal, then yes, it'd be a retcon of multiple sources of info, or at least it'd show her committing her betrayal way before... and at that point I just can't see how it is credible that it won't alter the future timeline.

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Hythlodaeus sacrifices himself to summon Zodiark. We know this from multiple sources including his shade on the Moon.

In the "Thou Must Live Die and Know" cutscene we see Venat walking through the streets of Amaurot as the Final Days are unraveling. She walks past Hythlodaeus and Emet saying their goodbyes. She keeps walking and comes across a group of Amaurotine tempered by Zodiark after the summoning and she proceeds to sunder the world. The conversation Venat has with her followers in Anamnesis is retconned out.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

You also have to remember Hythlodaeus in ShB was an incarnation that Emet created, with knowledge of what's going on. It's possible it's not a retcon and Emet simply bestowed Hythlodaeus knowledge of what comes to pass following his death.... though if she really did just up and sunder in one go, it's possible that it's a complete retcon.

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Correct, so he is conveying information Emet-Selch had and which is further corroborated by Elidibus later on, after he's defeated, as well as by the short stories I referenced in that post. That is the point I am making - if this isn't simply a narrative trick, it's a change in the sequence of events, because it is never suggested that the sacrifices being interminable is the reason why her faction disagrees with the Convocation's plan; instead, the reason given is that they believed the new lives should inherit the star.

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But this also really strengthens the theory that Hyadelyn's laws over stability affected the timeline by converging the changed timeline with ours. A plot device for time travel for sure, but at this point, even the final boss manipulates time. Time travel is messy business when we aren't given the full specifics on how the story wants time travel to specifically work. @_@ It could always be handled worse though.

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That's one way of putting it... and why some might refer to it as an asspull and not a particularly well written one. ;)

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

It was the easy way out for the writers. Writing about a multiverse or an altered timeline would've made the plot quite a bit more complicated. The memory erasure and Venat's inaction were more for the convenience of the writers rather than good story telling.

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The easy solution for this would be for Venat's memories to be erased, too. She still could have opposed Zodiark on principle and been drawn to the WoL as a primal without knowing why.

But for some reason she was written to doom her people because the WoL is just too darn cool.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

The easy solution for this would be for Venat's memories to be erased, too. She still could have opposed Zodiark on principle and been drawn to the WoL as a primal without knowing why.

But for some reason she was written to doom her people because the WoL is just too darn cool.

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The devs gotta stroke the players’ ego sadly. That typically comes at the cost of a coherent storyline xD

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I doubt there's much logic to be attributed to Venat's actions. At the end of the day, she caused her entire race to be wiped out based on her own misguided, biased judgement and because she decided to fawn over an individual who gave her a very biased account of what happened in the future.

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No, there are plenty logic to it. (I'll explain down below).

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Originally Posted by Shuuli

What do you mean known future for unknown?

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She may not know the "exact" future, but she had plenty "evident" for form her decision.


I think people are focusing on the wrong thing. The Final Day is simply ONE of the MANY ways a star can meet its end, the Endsinger is not really the final boss. In another word, they are not the point of the story. Think about it, by the time Venat sundered the world, the final day was already stopped. What she was trying to averse isn't the final day, but the ultimate end of mankind.

Elpis story was there wasn't merely for us to learn the nature of final day, but also to show us (the players) the fatal flaw of the Ancient society that would serve as the basic for Venat decision. Specifically, that flaw is the apathy toward life. While their indifference toward the creation is obvious, the subtext also showed it applies to all life. Here are the key moment:

- Meltion asked you to demonstrate your "sorrow" to "cheer up" Herme (as ironic as it sounds) because he is like the only ancient possess that emotion (which came from his cherish of life).
- Emer-setch said while he understand the "rationality", he can not work out the emotion why you have to be sad when someone die. He also considered the fact Venat didn't end her life after leaving the office is an act in tune with her rebellious personality.
- When accompanied you, a research literally tell Venat "hi there lady Venat, I can not wait for the day you finally kill yourself and it will be beautiful!". Her reaction is clearly uncomfortable about it.


Herme and Venat actually share a common trait: they both cherish lives. But this strait is making them the outcast of their society. And the last straw is during the sundering scence, when given the choice between "suffer and live" or "die", we saw the ancient pick the latter without much thought. Basically, even if the ancient was spared the final day, their society in its current trajectory will arrive at a deadend anway, that's what Venat was trying to stop. That's the point of the story.


Then, before her trial she told the party Meltion is a place where emotion and memory reign supreme, to which Alisae ask if mankind is truly powerless. She answered by address each of the Scion. On the surface, it looks like she merely recounting their lives, but once you put it together with the report by Metion and what she showed you in the final dungeon, Hydalyn was also drawing parallel of the struggle that spelled the end of those dead world, and how now the scion (as representative of mankind) had shown the will to overcome those.


Of course, there is nothing taken for granted. That's why the moon was created as a contingency. Even during the trial, she said we either show the will to overcome the trial or they must leave and never look back. She sacrified everything not for "assured" victory, but to make a bet on mankind's potential. Now, if you want to argue the merit of her decision, or whatever it's justifiable then that's up for debate. But I want to point out it's plenty logical, and definitely not simply based on her bias about our 1-side story.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Hythlodaeus sacrifices himself to summon Zodiark. We know this from multiple sources including his shade on the Moon.

In the "Thou Must Live Die and Know" cutscene we see Venat walking through the streets of Amaurot as the Final Days are unraveling. She walks past Hythlodaeus and Emet saying their goodbyes. She keeps walking and comes across a group of Amaurotine tempered by Zodiark after the summoning and she proceeds to sunder the world. The conversation Venat has with her followers in Anamnesis is retconned out.

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I suppose. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt that the scene is just stylised. If they're outright saying her, after gaining the knowledge in Elpis, substituted what happened in the original timeline, sure, it would be a retcon. The reason I brought up the original version of events is because it contradicts this idea that the ancients were just going to keep feeding Zodiark sacrifices. They seem to have had her perform the Sundering right before stage 2 of sacrifices took place. I don't think that scene paints her in a very reasonable light...

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Hythlodaeus sacrifices himself to summon Zodiark. We know this from multiple sources including his shade on the Moon.

In the "Thou Must Live Die and Know" cutscene we see Venat walking through the streets of Amaurot as the Final Days are unraveling. She walks past Hythlodaeus and Emet saying their goodbyes. She keeps walking and comes across a group of Amaurotine tempered by Zodiark after the summoning and she proceeds to sunder the world. The conversation Venat has with her followers in Anamnesis is retconned out.

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Or the conversation just isn't shown. For all we know, she may uave already had that conversation and decided to become Hydalaen's heart. The way time moved during the cutscene wasn't from point to point. They showed Hythlo going off to be summoned and then people praying to an already summoned Zodiark. It's very possible she and the rest of the Hydalaen supporting Ancients already prepped her to become Hydalaen'a heart during that scene.