White-mage is doomed - and why

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

You had me until this part.
Why can't WHM have something unique for itself?

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Because you can't have mitigation that every healer doesn't have access to or they'd be mandatory in prog.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Because you can't have mitigation that every healer doesn't have access to or they'd be mandatory in prog.

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Ok, so where's WHM's AoE shielding ability?

AST has Neutral Sect and SCH/SGE have on demand shields so where's WHMs?

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Ok, so where's WHM's AoE shielding ability?

AST has Neutral Sect and SCH/SGE have on demand shields so where's WHMs?

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I mean you could make protect something like gives you a party wide 500 potency shield and as long as you have this shield dmg you take is reduced by 10%. Makes it not super busted but you can use it for all one shot aoe situations.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Because you can't have mitigation that every healer doesn't have access to or they'd be mandatory in prog.

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...That's literally every shield healer.

It's what makes them... shield healers -- having mitigation not available to every healer (those that are not... shield healers).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

...That's literally every shield healer.

It's what makes them... shield healers -- having mitigation not available to every healer (those that are not... shield healers).

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Correction, that's literally every healer except WHM.

Don't forget that AST has access to spammable barriers for 20 seconds on a 120 second cooldown. They aren't weak shields either. 625 potency single target and 312 potency party with a built in +20% modifier as well.

WHM has no answer to this whatsoever, and despite this, benison is arguably weaker overall vs Celestial Intersection.

Is it time for me to start repeating how little effort SE seems to put into designing and play testing healers at a high standard of play?

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

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So we're back to "the only possible solution is homogeneity" or were any and all alternatives that don't require turning all shields and mitigation into Role Actions, despite shield and pure healers being separately classified in matchmaking, just coincidentally absent?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So we're back to "the only possible solution is homogeneity" or were any and all alternatives that don't require turning all shields and mitigation into Role Actions, despite shield and pure healers being separately classified in matchmaking, just coincidentally absent?

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No? Where did you even pluck that from?

My personal take is that if SE wanted to get serious about the whole barrier vs pure healer thing, Neutral Sect should have been reworked into something else. Instead we got the usual bluster and hot air followed by more underbaked shortsighted changes that don't go far enough.

But yeah, since Neutral Sect is still a thing, I'd argue that WHM should bring something else to the table instead.

The unfortunate reality is that unless you place value on it's more simplistic kit, it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

No? Where did you even pluck that from?

My personal take is that if SE wanted to get serious about the whole barrier vs pure healer thing, Neutral Sect should have been reworked into something else. Instead we got the usual bluster and hot air followed by more underbaked shortsighted changes that don't go far enough.

But yeah, since Neutral Sect is still a thing, I'd argue that WHM should bring something else to the table instead.

The unfortunate reality is that unless you place value on it's more simplistic kit, it doesn't.

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ast is loosing the shield i thought

And that's part 4 of the Eternal WHM Design Debate.

->The other healers deserve more output because they're more complex
-> But that just means WHM sucks compared to the others because it brings nothing other than output
-> That's okay we can come up with something else for WHM to do
-> But it had better not be anything other than output because the other healers are more complex and Deserve It More (TM). Also if it gets anything else that's Bad, because then that thing might actually be Good and in some conceivable way make it mandatory for prog, and being mandatory are SCH and AST's Shared Exclusive Identities.
-> Sooo. WHM gets output. Which should be lower than the others. Because it's less complex. <3 <3

My eyes rolled out of my head again, got to go find them.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

ast is loosing the shield i thought

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You'd think so with what Yoshida's been saying.

I can only assume that the class design team couldn't be bothered at this point.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

ast is loosing the shield i thought

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They’re losing Nocturnal Sect, the shield stance. They’re keeping Neutral Sect, the shield-regen buff. They’ll still have shields for 20s every 120s.

I think this wasn’t what you were really asking though but this goes with what everyone keeps repeating—only WHM lacks aoe shielding but somehow WHM is too “powerful” to receive anything that would make it unique and give it identity.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

No? Where did you even pluck that from?

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From the very quote I was responding to (regarding any mitigation skill needing to be a Role Action) before you turned a question of job identity to solely one of mitigation-parity:

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Because you can't have mitigation that every healer doesn't have access to or they'd be mandatory in prog.

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With the categorical division between "shield" and "pure" healers come EW, now of all times would not demand that "pure" healers must have a mitigation tool (as compared to literally any other form of compensatory capacity) or that mitigation skills be made into Role Actions.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

With the categorical division between "shield" and "pure" healers come EW, now of all times would not demand that "pure" healers must have a mitigation tool (as compared to literally any other form of compensatory capacity) or that mitigation skills be made into Role Actions.

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It's a division that makes no sense and doesn't seem to stack up in reality once you look beyond WHM.

Again, I'm not trying to say that WHM should get a group shield, but rather it really should bring something of it's own to the party.

There is literally no reason why whm can't have stoneskin 2 back and usable in combat like the other healers.

WHM should not be punished by having less tools simply because its whm. I agree it should bring osmething unique to the table AS WELL though.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

There is literally no reason why whm can't have stoneskin 2 back and usable in combat like the other healers.

WHM should not be punished by having less tools simply because its whm. I agree it should bring osmething unique to the table AS WELL though.

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This is one of the reason why I'd suggest merging Assize with Plenary, albeit with a bit tweaking on Plenary component to minimize wasting its potential. With both merged the lv70 capstone is essentially free to be filled with something else... preferably some sort of utility. I won't know what's the best to fill in this gap 'cause I'm not a game designer. I just think Plenary is one thing that should go away to make room for an additional utility. It's excessive & clunky to use.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Correction, that's literally every healer except WHM.

Don't forget that AST has access to spammable barriers for 20 seconds on a 120 second cooldown. They aren't weak shields either. 625 potency single target and 312 potency party with a built in +20% modifier as well.

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Not only does AST have Neutral, they'll also be keeping the current Collective Unconscious which basically functions as a 10% mitigation for raidwides on half the cooldown of Temperance.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So we're back to "the only possible solution is homogeneity"

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You don't solve homogenization by making one class inferior to all the others.

The Thin Air nerf has me concerned. I don't even endgame but I do remember Wiping City and Dun Scaith at launch and I don't want to go back to those dark days in regards to MP issues.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Again, I'm not trying to say that WHM should get a group shield, but rather it really should bring something of it's own to the party.

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I am totally cool with it bringing something of its own. I'm just not cool with the assumption that "SCH and SGE/AST have X, and thus WHM must get X, despite it being only one of many factors in those jobs' being preferred over WHM." Literally anything else of roughly equal contextual value, please.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

You don't solve homogenization by making one class inferior to all the others.

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I never said a unique weakness alone makes for a sufficiently unique job, nor that parity should not be required. "Homogeneity isn't the only solution to imbalance" =/= "Just leave shit imbalanced."

You can have parity without having complete homogeneity. You just fill the otherwise gaping hole with literally anything else of equivalent value in a competitive 8-man environment, rather than, as earlier proposed, turning essential skills (such as any and all forms of mitigation) into Role Actions.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I never said a unique weakness alone makes for a sufficiently unique job, nor that parity should not be required. "Homogeneity isn't the only solution to imbalance" =/= "Just leave shit imbalanced."

You can have parity without having complete homogeneity. You just fill the otherwise gaping hole with literally anything else of equivalent value in a competitive 8-man environment, rather than, as earlier proposed, turning essential skills (such as any and all forms of mitigation) into Role Actions.

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Agreed, my one major point of caution is where people define "parity". I've seen quite a lot of suggestions on the forums over the years that aren't very good. And the reason they're not very good isn't because the suggestion isn't unique or theoretically an interesting bit of design; most of WHM's "suggestions" follow the same vein that the Square designers want for the job. Something that seems interesting or unique on paper but is actually something that the game's combat system cares nothing about. WHM could use self-healing potions faster. It could have a 5 second shorter cooldown on Sprint. Hell, it's historically been cursed with the "has higher healing potency" name (though that hasn't been true in a long time since AST stomps all over its healing potency outside Cure 3). All of those are unique, but they certainly aren't what I'd call advantages.

I'm particularly harping on this point because this is exactly what I mean when I say the massive community circular argument surrounding WHM never actually seeks to -solve- WHM's issues. When I've argued with AST and SCH mains, and they agree WHM needs to bring something unique to the table, they never, ever want it to have anything *useful*. Just something stupid that never translates into a real advantage, like more overhealing or whatever. Hell, technically at this point Holy's stun is an advantage, and you'll find no shortage of ASTs and SCHs kvetching that WHM shouldn't even have that.

In order for WHM to have something interesting or unique that's actually useful, the community would need to come off this vague unspoken assumption that AST and SCH "deserve" mandatory meta slots and WHM can only have "uniqueness" that never threatens them in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

With the categorical division between "shield" and "pure" healers come EW, now of all times would not demand that "pure" healers must have a mitigation tool (as compared to literally any other form of compensatory capacity) or that mitigation skills be made into Role Actions.

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Yep, those Shield healers who have multiple Regens and those "Pure" healers who have multiple Shields.

Shield and Pure healers are a fallacy.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

In order for WHM to have something interesting or unique that's actually useful, the community would need to come off this vague unspoken assumption that AST and SCH "deserve" mandatory meta slots and WHM can only have "uniqueness" that never threatens them in the slightest.

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I have yet to see a single post that says AST and SCH "Deserve" mandatory meta slots. I've love for you to prove me wrong if you have the proof, but otherwise, that argument is nothing more than a Strawman.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Agreed, my one major point of caution is where people define "parity". I've seen quite a lot of suggestions on the forums over the years that aren't very good. And the reason they're not very good isn't because the suggestion isn't unique or theoretically an interesting bit of design; most of WHM's "suggestions" follow the same vein that the Square designers want for the job. Something that seems interesting or unique on paper but is actually something that the game's combat system cares nothing about. WHM could use self-healing potions faster. It could have a 5 second shorter cooldown on Sprint. Hell, it's historically been cursed with the "has higher healing potency" name (though that hasn't been true in a long time since AST stomps all over its healing potency outside Cure 3). All of those are unique, but they certainly aren't what I'd call advantages.

I'm particularly harping on this point because this is exactly what I mean when I say the massive community circular argument surrounding WHM never actually seeks to -solve- WHM's issues. When I've argued with AST and SCH mains, and they agree WHM needs to bring something unique to the table, they never, ever want it to have anything *useful*. Just something stupid that never translates into a real advantage, like more overhealing or whatever.

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Lilybell is that in theory. The problem is the devs then shove something even better than that into the newest healers (Panhaima, Physis II on Sage, Macrocosmos on AST) for no good reason. Ostensibly it is to enforce that parity issue. If SCH wasn't already ahead of the curve relative to WHM (though it's pretty clear they're Third only by the grace of how far ahead they've been in the past) I would be bothered by them distinctly -NOT- getting some equivalent to that, but the fact is SE didn't even bother to figure out what SCH even needed (and I'd agree it -wasn't- a Lilybell equivalent), and it shows. The devs don't seem particularly interested in even -trying- to enforce any particular paradigm, just whatever looks the prettiest and easiest to juggle in testing, in order to get the casual players to say it's fine and then they tell the vets to shut up about the consequences. And the result is the most efficient tools and rDPS wins. Every. Damn. Time.

To be clear, I don't have a problem if only a particular subset of all healers have -something- for a given situation. My problem is that lack of attention to how those edge cases affect their overall state. After the trashpile that was AST for the last three expansions, they couldn't even be bothered to figure out how to make Sage -distinct- in a manner that actually matters for 80% of the kit. And the result is that last 20% makes it flat out better just from prior game knowledge. That's been happening to WHM since ARR.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I have yet to see a single post that says AST and SCH "Deserve" mandatory meta slots. I've love for you to prove me wrong if you have the proof, but otherwise, that argument is nothing more than a Strawman.

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Literally all of the bitching on these forums that Glare "deserved" nerfs when 5.0 dropped because dirty White Mage DARED to outdamage precious Astro and Scholar.

They never come out and say WHM deserves to be inferior. It's always "give them something to do, sure!" "WHAT!? WHM IS MORE POWEFUL THAN ME!? NERF IT NERF IT! I'M MORE COMPLEX AND DESERVE MORE OUTPUT!"

Scholar mains pitch a fit anytime it even looks like they might for ten seconds be off-meta.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Lilybell is that in theory. The problem is the devs then shove something even better than that into the newest healers (Panhaima, Physis II on Sage, Macrocosmos on AST) for no good reason. Ostensibly it is to enforce that parity issue. If SCH wasn't already ahead of the curve relative to WHM (though it's pretty clear they're Third only by the grace of how far ahead they've been in the past) I would be bothered by them distinctly -NOT- getting some equivalent to that, but the fact is SE didn't even bother to figure out what SCH even needed (and I'd agree it -wasn't- a Lilybell equivalent), and it shows. The devs don't seem particularly interested in even -trying- to enforce any particular paradigm, just whatever looks the prettiest and easiest to juggle in testing, in order to get the casual players to say it's fine and then they tell the vets to shut up about the consequences. And the result is the most efficient tools and rDPS wins. Every. Damn. Time.

To be clear, I don't have a problem if only a particular subset of all healers have -something- for a given situation. My problem is that lack of attention to how those edge cases affect their overall state. After the trashpile that was AST for the last three expansions, they couldn't even be bothered to figure out how to make Sage -distinct- in a manner that actually matters for 80% of the kit. And the result is that last 20% makes it flat out better just from prior game knowledge. That's been happening to WHM since ARR.

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Agreed. However, the complaining on these forums about WHM getting a stun on Holy, complaining about the amount of damage Glare did in early patches (despite quickly being outclassed once gear came rolling in), just leads me to suspect that all of the AST/SCH insistence that WHM get something unique or useful is completely disingenuous, since their respective communities rage and complain and whine any time WHM has any tiny bit of useful uniqueness in its kit, despite hilariously outclassing them in almost every other way.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Literally all of the bitching on these forums that Glare "deserved" nerfs when 5.0 dropped because dirty White Mage DARED to outdamage precious Astro and Scholar.

They never come out and say WHM deserves to be inferior. It's always "give them something to do, sure!" "WHAT!? WHM IS MORE POWEFUL THAN ME!? NERF IT NERF IT! I'M MORE COMPLEX AND DESERVE MORE OUTPUT!"

Scholar mains pitch a fit anytime it even looks like they might for ten seconds be off-meta.

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You are delusional and need to turn off your monitor and go outside for a bit. Get some sunshine. Touch some grass.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Literally all of the bitching on these forums that Glare "deserved" nerfs when 5.0 dropped because dirty White Mage DARED to outdamage precious Astro and Scholar.

They never come out and say WHM deserves to be inferior. It's always "give them something to do, sure!" "WHAT!? WHM IS MORE POWEFUL THAN ME!? NERF IT NERF IT! I'M MORE COMPLEX AND DESERVE MORE OUTPUT!"

Scholar mains pitch a fit anytime it even looks like they might for ten seconds be off-meta.

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I've nothing to say about the state of WHM/healers in general, but this gave me sensible chuckle.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...159824/c5f.gif

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Literally all of the bitching on these forums that Glare "deserved" nerfs when 5.0 dropped because dirty White Mage DARED to outdamage precious Astro and Scholar.

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Wait what? White Mage wasn't actually overpowered by any stretch at the end of Stormblood though? O12S had way too much emphasis on movement for WHM to do well there. The rest of the tier wasn't that much better either TBH. It wasn't awful, WHM was competitive and 'fine'. But I certainly don't remember seeing people complaining about WHM needing nerfs at that point, and if they did I'm sure I'd have been right at the front of the queue to chop them down on it.

As for SCH mains, they had every right to scream and shout over what patches 4.0 and 5.0 did to them. 4.0 was completely inexcusable and will forever stand as a shining demonstration that SE quite literally have no clue what they are doing with healers.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Wait what? White Mage wasn't actually overpowered by any stretch at the end of Stormblood though?

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I believe what this poster was referring to, was White Mage's increase in viability near the start of the 5.0 Shadowbringers. Raid buffs, especially Crit Buffs, have far less impact near the start of the expansion due to how gear progression works. WHM also had monstrous personal DPS, and Broil was 280 Potency. This meant that for a small period of time, WHM was a more viable choice than SCH. Natural Gear Progression and the valuing of Crit Buffs, along with the Broil Potency Increase to 290 pushed SCH ahead in the later half of the expansion. Near the beginning of ShB, there were several threads and requests to nerf WHM, even though it wasn't over-tuned. (that is the complaining the poster is referring to)

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Originally Posted by IllyaPrisma

I believe what this poster was referring to, was White Mage's increase in viability near the start of the 5.0 Shadowbringers. Raid buffs, especially Crit Buffs, have far less impact near the start of the expansion due to how gear progression works.

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This is true, but it makes me wonder if even just some small factor or buff (e.g., PoM) with slightly better than linear scaling could make up the difference...

If WHM's rDPS could just increase at the same rate as that of the healers who have indirect rDPS contribution through raid buffs (and so that part of their contribution therefore increases at the rate average for the whole party, rather than just themselves), then we'd be fine, I would think? So long as we are balanced at the start, we'd likewise be balanced at the end.

I've been throwing around an idea for a WHM ability that amplified buffs on allies and debuffs on enemies for their spells only. So they could get bigger bonuses from raid buffs than other healers by lining that up with said raid buffs.

It keeps the "big number" and selfish dps identity of WHM that people like me enjoy, too.

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Originally Posted by Irenia

I've been throwing around an idea for a WHM ability that amplified buffs on allies and debuffs on enemies for their spells only. So they could get bigger bonuses from raid buffs than other healers by lining that up with said raid buffs.

It keeps the "big number" and selfish dps identity of WHM that people like me enjoy, too.

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It'd be a bit weird having their total party contribution sapped by having "selfish" DPS, though, wouldn't it? BLM and SAM put out enough damage that they still lead even after having assigned all the BLM/SAM's value in essentially buffing the damage milked from Trick Attack, Litany, etc., to the respective NIN, DRG, et cetera. As such, being discouraged from taking "selfish" DPS even if they're your best rDPS contributors or most improve party performance just for what little gap there is to be had from optimizing a WHM would be a bit off-putting, to say the least.

With the introduction of sage, WHM probably lost its selfish dps identity for good. Best they could hope for is a niche in burst DPS which their toolkit can strongly support.

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Originally Posted by Tokisaki_Kurumi

With the introduction of sage, WHM probably lost its selfish dps identity for good. Best they could hope for is a niche in burst DPS which their toolkit can strongly support.

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sage and whm both do the exact same potency per minute, going by the media tour potencies

I think whm can have the identity of healing and dpsing at the same time ex assize and lillies, and sage can have healing through damage ex kardia. I think its distinct enough that they can do it.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

sage and whm both do the exact same potency per minute, going by the media tour potencies

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Which is a problem because SGE can hold off on healing for longer due to Kardia, so WHM might fall even further behind in terms of its role as a "selfish" healer.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

sage and whm both do the exact same potency per minute, going by the media tour potencies

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They do? Maybe if that minute involves POM, otherwise it doesn't seem like it. Maybe my napkin math is off.

Eukrasian Dosis 700 Potency > Dia 660 Potency
Dosis 330 Potency > Glare 310 Potency
Phlegma is 180 Potency gain over Dosis, and 200 Potency greater than Glare
WHM has Assize within each minute for 400 OGCD damage

For openers:
WHM would have POM
SGE would have both Phlegma Charges

I'm not sure if we can properly calculate how many Dosis/Glare would fit in 60 seconds right now.
WHM is also a more GCD reliant healer, and SGE has a greater supply of healing cooldowns. I imagine SGE will pull ahead in most situations

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Originally Posted by IllyaPrisma

They do? Maybe if that minute involves POM, otherwise it doesn't seem like it. Maybe my napkin math is off.

Eukrasian Dosis 700 Potency > Dia 660 Potency
Dosis 330 Potency > Glare 310 Potency
Phlegma is 180 Potency gain over Dosis, and 200 Potency greater than Glare
WHM has Assize within each minute for 400 OGCD damage

For openers:
WHM would have POM
SGE would have both Phlegma Charges

I'm not sure if we can properly calculate how many Dosis/Glare would fit in 60 seconds right now.
WHM is also a more GCD reliant healer, and SGE has a greater supply of healing cooldowns. I imagine SGE will pull ahead in most situations

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Dia has upfront damage of 120 potency then a DoT of 60 for 30s a total of 720 potency.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Dia has upfront damage of 120 potency then a DoT of 60 for 30s a total of 720 potency.

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Correct me if I'm wrong: but I remember from the media tour tooltip, they've been nerfed to only have 60p of upfront damage.

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Originally Posted by IllyaPrisma

They do? Maybe if that minute involves POM, otherwise it doesn't seem like it. Maybe my napkin math is off.

Eukrasian Dosis 700 Potency > Dia 660 Potency
Dosis 330 Potency > Glare 310 Potency
Phlegma is 180 Potency gain over Dosis, and 200 Potency greater than Glare
WHM has Assize within each minute for 400 OGCD damage

For openers:
WHM would have POM
SGE would have both Phlegma Charges

I'm not sure if we can properly calculate how many Dosis/Glare would fit in 60 seconds right now.
WHM is also a more GCD reliant healer, and SGE has a greater supply of healing cooldowns. I imagine SGE will pull ahead in most situations

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In 60s a SGE can fit 24 GCDs, assuming 2.5s GCD:

0s Dosis II, 2.5s Eukrasian Dosis, 5s Phlegma III, 7.5s Phlegma III, 10s Dosis II, 12.5s Dosis II, 15s Dosis II, 17.5s Dosis II, 20s Dosis II, 22.5s Dosis II, 25s Dosis II, 27.5s Dosis II, 30s Dosis II, 32.5s Eukrasian Dosis, (35s - 47.5s Dosis II x6), 50s Phlegma III, (52.5s-57.5s Dosis II x3).

Timer indication is at the start of the cast.

Total: 2 Eukrasian Diagnosis 2x700= 1400
3 Phlegma III 3x510= 1530
19 Dosis II 19x330= 6270

Total 9200 potency.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Correct me if I'm wrong: but I remember from the media tour tooltip, they've been nerfed to only have 60p of upfront damage.

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Might be, I checked the current potency, If that's the case then oof

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Correct me if I'm wrong: but I remember from the media tour tooltip, they've been nerfed to only have 60p of upfront damage.

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Great, so early refreshes for mobility get even a bit more punishing than was already the case...

I was honestly hoping it'd go the other way, perhaps to a 220 direct and 50-per-tick (or 210 and 45-per-tick if it's losing ~60 potency total in EW).