Is anyone else concerned about 6.0 Summoner?

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

This isn't some random disconnected thread. This is the primary general discussion (yes, DPS forum would be better, general is fine.) And the best way not to have your opinion heard is to keep it to yourself.

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Tell that to the people that keep whining about MCH in a bajillion threads including this obviously SMN centered one.

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Originally Posted by Claviusnex

You don't think YoshiP's often said statement that he doesn't like pet classes has anything to do with the change? I believe that has more to do with the rework than the inability to take the Summoner job forward.

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Yeah and the moon landing was fake.

"Currently summoner as a job is reaching somewhat of a breaking point when it comes to the overall play mechanics, so we’ve halted work on Egi glamour for the time being in order to shift focus. There is a reason behind this, but we can’t share the details with you at the moment. When the time comes, I’ll be sure to properly share that information with everyone."
Yoshi p from Mr happys interview like 4 months ago

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Originally Posted by Duskane

"Currently summoner as a job is reaching somewhat of a breaking point when it comes to the overall play mechanics, so we’ve halted work on Egi glamour for the time being in order to shift focus. There is a reason behind this, but we can’t share the details with you at the moment. When the time comes, I’ll be sure to properly share that information with everyone."
Yoshi p from Mr happys interview like 4 months ago

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Thank you. Guess for some people it's easier to believe in the "YoshiP doesn't like pets" conspiracy.

Idk if I have concerns but I have question.

Are it's dots still there or are they gone?

If gone what are it's main sources of dmg outside of bursts?

Are the gems tied to DWT/FBT?

Do we still have egis or just carbuncles? What is gameplay pre HW like?

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Originally Posted by AvenoMatt

Idk if I have concerns but I have question.

Are it's dots still there or are they gone?

If gone what are it's main sources of dmg outside of bursts?

Are the gems tied to DWT/FBT?

Do we still have egis or just carbuncles? What is gameplay pre HW like?

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The DoTs are gone. (outside Garuda having a placed damage over time field like Salted Earth)

For specifics about where damage is, I think people are going to need to get their hands on it, however, It looks like you transition from one burst to another with a bit of filler.

DWT and FBT give you access to the Gems.

If I understood the various comments right, we have a Carbuncle. We can still glam it to look like one of the various Egis, but it doesn't attack, and it has some support abilities. It is unclear as of now (unless there has been some new update) what order we get our skills in. A few people are planning on creating alts to try our and see how leveling goes as a summoner, but as noted before, we'll have to get our hands on it first.

So... yes, i am happy cause i think the egi's were an insult to the legacy of summoners. The way they will work now is more akin to the FF games where they are attacks. They appear on all their glory, make their trademark attack and buff your abilities. It is great.

My only concern is about the cycle. I think these summons should be cooldown based. This way they can add more as they go along in expansions. The way it is now, it's a cycle between Garuda, Titan and Ifrit and i don't know how they are gonna implement more, unless they implement them 3 at a time and make another cycle between phoenix and Bahamut. But, yes, i'd like to see more. I hope this implementation is something they can expand on.

But, atm and that is very important, more than fall into design pitfalls from thinking too much about what comes next at the cost of fun (cough WoW cough), what is important is that it is enjoyable to play. It seems to be from where i see. So, lets worry about the future when we get there.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

But do you enjoy it enough? Is it your main? Your go to for Raids and Trails? Sometimes being fun to play on occasion isn't enough. When you completely change how a job plays, you risk alienating the core group that plays it.

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Just like BRD in SB, SCH in SHB, DRK in SHB, SMN in every bloody expansion? It’s a mmo jobs change to try to do somthing new or to please fans that never cared for it to make it accessible and simple. Take your pick which route is more lucrative

I'm hugely enthusiastic about the changes personally. Summoner has always felt more like a poison mage than a summoner for a very long time. Bahamut and Phoenix are great, but they only available late game (70+) and until then you're left with the Egi's which feel very underwhelming by comparison. Not only do the Egi's pale in appearance to their counterparts, but the damage they contribute is far from impressive, even with Enkindle. DoT's just aren't as useful for large crowds of enemies as AoE nukes are, since you need the whole timer to tick down for them to deal their full damage.

This change feels more on point. No more DoT, just straight murdering everything as hard as you can. Moreover, imbuing yourself with the aspect of the summon to cast like-element attacks is genius! Summoner has always been my least favourite magical caster in FFXIV, when it used to be one of my all-time favourites (especially from FFXI). That's a hard fall from grace, but this update gets me excited for Summoner again.

Can't wait to roll out my Summoner when Endwalker hits!

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Originally Posted by Haxaan

As a Summoner player since ARR and Healer Main it is almost comical to see everyone cry about the complexity being nuked for simplicty. Where have these people been since SHB came out and the Healers were stripped of any and all complexity and became homogenized to the point of a single dps button?

With that out of the way, I think the visuals of the new Summoner are stunning and it FINALLY looks like a Final Fantasy Summoner. That being said, it is one thing to have flashy animations that look pretty and another for the mechanics behind them to play well and be fun. Summoner has been in a very weird place for a long time and it has needed to figure out it's identity. It looks like they have finally picked an identity for it and they hit the ground running with it. Let's just hope the gameplay is as fun and engaging as it is pretty.

When they showed the Astro animations for SHB I was in love, until I realized what they had done to the job in exchange. It is a shell of it's former self and while I do not like what they've done, I had to come to terms with that and realize that it was "for the good of the game" when balance was concerned. Mind you, I still have negeative feels about how dirty they did Ast, but we'll see how they adjust it in Endwalker. The same can be said about Summoner. We will all know more at the press event, until then everything is speculation.

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I and many other it seems. Want all that (and much more) complexity back.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

From my understanding its because in ffxi we did everything via our pets, few smns in xi actually did much casting and even fewer pulled out their staff and started clobbering, so the job revolved almost entirely around your pet. There was a massive disappointment with egi but from what I remember back at its reveal was it was because a 12 year old mmo had better summons than this new installment both graphically and functionally, then to add insult to injury egi were mostly left to their own devices. So it really didn't feel like a smn at all because you summoned an egi and forgot about them. They were a glorified auto attack.

imo ffxi did the jobs in the series more justice than any other game in the franchise for the most part. Not only were they able to go dark, real dark in a lot of cases, with the storyline because they were not concerned about making so much of the game cute or whimsical. But some jobs like smn, blu, rdm, these were all dang near perfect versions of them, esp blu and rdm. But that was because the jobs could be so large, expansive and detailed. You had actions for everything because they threw everything at you instead of trying to limit everything for simplicity. Not to mention they had no concerns about speed. You didn't need everything right now, that game is all about the long run.

This version of smn is more of a traditional summoner from a solo ff game. You summon your pet, it appears, does an attack and disappears, leaving you to do your own thing. So they are literally just giving us smn, its games like xi that are the deviation. So I am not too worried, nor am I freaking out about it, esp since we have no real idea how it will play.

Simplification is the #1 rule too ffxiv at this point, so screaming that its not complex enough is silly. You know what you are going to get when you log into ffxiv. You know what you are going to get with job changes. You know what you are going to get with new jobs. If you really want a challenge or complexity in how you play, this is seriously not the game for you at all and I have no idea why ppl still cling to the belief that it is or someday will be.

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Because there are MANY orphaned players from other MMOs, specially FFXI that want FFXIV to be what it once was: a complex, coherent and engaging experience that gets more challenging over time.

Im happy with the changes, and i cant see SMN getting other primals cause it would be a 5min rotation lol. Unless we get some abilities of other primals, but i dunno if it will happen.

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Originally Posted by Mindiori

Whatever comes, people seem to be stuck in a sort of denial about complexity/simplification et al. The days where any job was 'fun' for those with a brain installed is long gone. Many a deflective argument was raised about 'instance difficulty being increased'. 'Less watching the hotbars and more active environmental demands'. And I could only laugh at the mental gymnastics involved. Not only does the engine, team and so on not have it in them for that style of design change - the masses are casual and complain even if jobs are mashing one button.

The future is here and it certainly isn't one of entertaining gameplay. Certainly, I expect those used to some sort of single rotation engagement in their gaming will disagree. Yet there is a divergence of opinion when placed with veterans vs that crowd. When you grow up with gameplay that has a certain player growth, depth and expectation - and see it watered down to babies first mmo; as was the case with wow; there is solid reasoning as to why some are annoyed.

Instead we have point the finger games. Hyperbole in numerous directions. If you think the current jobs are engaging then (personally) I think you're insane. They are flashy - but spamming a single DPS skill on a healer; when past MMO's had entire rotation bars worth, is nothing short of chuckle worthy. People are consistently intellectually dishonest. I assume to placate their lack of skill and enjoyment at brainless activities.

When a group of people start to tell you 'you've got one percent of content to enjoy if you want a challenge' - and then insert some 'elitist' insult; it basically becomes battle of the bigot. An utter waste of time for all. So there will be no compromise, because there can't be.

If pretty looking one button classes/jobs draws the money - that's all they care about. You are blowing nothing but smoke comparatively. Sad but I struggle to stay mentally engaged with most of the jobs. I hope that the rest of you don't find yourself in that position in time. Genuinely so. As it isn't 'fun'. At least not for me. Fortunately other aspects of the game can tide me over till something else draws me away.

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This. A million times this. Thank you for that really, I couldn't agree more.

Seems the game is slowly turning into a cellphone game (for anything other than ~1% challenging content SE implements from time to time). No one wants normal gameplay to be Extreme or Savage level of hard, but hard dungeons should be hard whenever playing synced, not matter the equipment, and normal gameplay should be at least twice as hard as it currently it is (and that would still be far easier than savages, just not braindead autoplay current levels of boring bland gameplay). Open world content needs much more love in this game too.

So I counter the skills, and SMN has 24, subtract role skills and it’s 19 minutes Physick and Res and its 17. That’s alarmingly low for a 90 job. No job currently has a skill count that low, no more skills doesn’t mean a better job but try fitting this in 50s content, or ultimate tiers in 70s and 80s.

Suspiciously the summons have a Omni Skill they use together kinda like Ianjitsu where it varies, and then overrides Ruin III, they still have Fester (change the name at least) and Energy Drain/Syphon aswell as painflare. We don’t know what role Ruin IV has to play or that other weird skill that only changes when you use Demis, but so far this job seems very shallow. I mean during the phases it seems all your doing is casting instant spells, ifrit is the sole exception as your doing long casts? And a gap closer of all things? and Energy looks to be lateral with no interplay between the trances...so far at least.

But again I don’t bye into the hype of visuals of the job plays like lesser BRD

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Originally Posted by Jirah

So I counter the skills, and SMN has 24, subtract role skills and it’s 19 minutes Physick and Res and its 17. That’s alarmingly low for a 90 job. No job currently has a skill count that low, no more skills doesn’t mean a better job but try fitting this in 50s content, or ultimate tiers in 70s and 80s.

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Technically, that's the amount of buttons, not skills. As you yourself note, several skills change depending on trance/primal.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

So I counter the skills, and SMN has 24, subtract role skills and it’s 19 minutes Physick and Res and its 17. That’s alarmingly low for a 90 job. No job currently has a skill count that low, no more skills doesn’t mean a better job but try fitting this in 50s content, or ultimate tiers in 70s and 80s.

Suspiciously the summons have a Omni Skill they use together kinda like Ianjitsu where it varies, and then overrides Ruin III, they still have Fester (change the name at least) and Energy Drain/Syphon aswell as painflare. We don’t know what role Ruin IV has to play or that other weird skill that only changes when you use Demis, but so far this job seems very shallow. I mean during the phases it seems all your doing is casting instant spells, ifrit is the sole exception as your doing long casts? And a gap closer of all things? and Energy looks to be lateral with no interplay between the trances...so far at least.

But again I don’t bye into the hype of visuals of the job plays like lesser BRD

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Number of buttons isn't a bad thing per se. The most engaging PvE I've played in an mmo limited you to 9 skills, but the skills all doubled up in their functions and they all interacted with other parts of your kit, and you had a bunch of passives to manage and benefit from as well. Not to mention the raids were really wacky and active with lots of reactionary elements as well as pattern recognition.

My biggest worry right now is how the lack of cohesion with our resources persist, the focus point of the rotation still seeming misplaced, and, probably worst of all, how the "breaking point" of the class is still within sight.

What is aetherflow/ruin IV still doing here outside of giving us something to do between our instant casts?
Why are our BIG FLASHY SUMMONS (demis) just cooldowns to passively wait for? Why do they build up our weaker primals? Why do our weaker primals expect more of us than the big flashy summons in terms of rotation variance and risk? (ifrits long casts/melee skills, titans fast weaving, garuda's floor dot placement, vs bahamut and phoenix's 111111 spam + 3 presses of ogcds)
And what are they going to try to expand our rotation after they add in the last 3 ARR summons to the tail end of phoenix phase? Add a demi primal and extend our rotation by another minute? Overwrite parts of the rotation that they just spent the time overhauling? Heh, maybe more pet interactions that you can weave in during casts like you could in SB. (That'd be cool actually. SE, do that. Give my carby some dots for me to manage. Let me have a curse dog. >:3c)

I don't see a reason so far to be concerned. Personally I've been a SMN main since 2.0 and there's a lot that they would need to do to make that change. There's going to be a change in the flow of combat and in timelines of battles but that's changed every expac so it's nothing too new or jarring, really.

Am I concerned about Summoner in 6.0? Yeah definitely but also a bit hopeful. I really hated the changes to Summoner in 5.0 to the point I swapped to BLM and never touched summoner again. So the idea of more changes fills me with a certain dread. On the other hand it might be that I will like the new system.

I am willing to give it a try when 6.0 hits and see how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Myrany

Am I concerned about Summoner in 6.0? Yeah definitely but also a bit hopeful. I really hated the changes to Summoner in 5.0 to the point I swapped to BLM and never touched summoner again. So the idea of more changes fills me with a certain dread. On the other hand it might be that I will like the new system.

I am willing to give it a try when 6.0 hits and see how it goes.

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Aw man, you missed out. 5.0 was hell, 5.1 and on is sublime
It all just flows so well. (the rotation that is. The class direction, and resources are kind of a mess.)