Trailer - FINAL FANTASY XIV: ENDWALKER - Job Actions

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Okay, I think I've found another aspect of Sage that doesn't sit well with me.

If you look at the abilities, and what Sage's gimmick is, it should have been a blood mage.

Cardia, or "heart", doesn't seem to tie well into these noulith things at all. It doesn't thematically translate at all why shooting lasers at an enemy is healing an ally. If maybe you are transferring aetheric energy from one body to another, then that's fine for an explanation, but Cardia does a really poor job of communicating the flavor.

But when you remove the noulith lasers and look at the Sage's core functions, a clearer theme starts to emerge. It's a profession based on medicine, that "heals" (eucrasia) and "poisons" (dyscrasia). It's stacks are serpent themed to match this same duality (Adder's Gall, Adder's Sting).

It's within the larger context that Cardia makes more sense, where most of the job's abilities are themed around body fluids (pneuma, phlegma, pepsis, chole, etc.) and the heart is what keeps all of that moving through blood. Absent some more express thematic tie-ins, it just feels too disjointed to me.

But this is where the job falls apart, because there is nothing blood or even liquid about Sage's theming. It's all lasers. So instead of having some sort of fluid animation, or even renaming the ability "Transfusion," instead we have this bizarre nonsequitur between Nouliths (which rightly should have been called "fangs", to reference FF II/IV) and some nonsense ability that inexplicably heals.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I get all of this, but it is still lore that they literally just made up that is more disjointed than it needed to be. There is nothing *actually* connecting nouliths to fluids in the jobs' design, just in the names.

Nouliths were completely invented for the Sage class--they could have just as easily been called Fangs to fit with the humors/serpent theme. Same with Cardia/Infusion. It's so close to good design, and I'm hoping it's just a few conversations with NPCs away from coming together into a coherent whole.

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Why do you need the connection to be so literal? Maybe once upon a time the Sages healed by manipulating humours more literally, and since then the advancement of magitechnology has allowed them to abstract the procedures, but even this doesn't needs must be the case. Chirurgeons don't literally cut people open here; they chant and throw glitter and people are healed. If you try to force everything to have literal adherence to nomenclature, you're going to find just about everything wrong with everything in the XIV world. It's a blend of high fantasy, science fantasy, and several other fantasies; some things are going to have purely symbolic fantastical names.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Why do you need the connection to be so literal? Maybe once upon a time the Sages healed by manipulating humours more literally, and since then the advancement of magitechnology has allowed them to abstract the procedures. Chirurgeons don't literally cut people open here; they chant and throw glitter and people are healed.

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Because absent a more concrete design philosophy it's just a gundam DPS that they shoehorned into a healer role. Absent a better explanation for Cardio, there is absolutely no reason why I should believe floating laser swords heal as they do damage. With what little information we have right now, the job is totally nonsensical, even within the context of FF XIV. We have never seen a chiurgeon do any sort of healing that required shooting people with laser swords, much less people other than the patient. What we currently have available to the public is a DPS class with white mage cloak on serving as the clumsiest lampshade.

I'm okay with your explanation, but I'm not giving the devs the benefit of the doubt and inferring it for them. If their design actually is more coherent than it appears, then they can show their work. All I want is some reference in the official lore to fangs (make it a little more grounded in FF tradition), transfusions (better contextualize and define Cardio, the job's main feature that somehow makes the least amount of sense), and maybe some literal fluid manipulation like you said. That's not a huge ask to turn a job from borderline incoherent to brilliant.

We haven't actually gotten the deeper lore about Sage which the 70-80 job quests will likely provide so it seems a bit premature to assume there's no correlation between the spell names and how the job works in practice.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

SGE - I like the concept and I cannot wait for it to be changed when newcomers don't do DPS to heal and let everyone die.

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That's so not going to happen. They legit have WHM, AST and SCH if they are not ready to play the game.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Because absent a more concrete design philosophy it's just a gundam DPS that they shoehorned into a healer role. Absent a better explanation for Cardio, there is absolutely no reason why I should believe floating laser swords heal as they do damage. With what little information we have right now, the job is totally nonsensical, even within the context of FF XIV. We have never seen a chiurgeon do any sort of healing that required shooting people with laser swords, much less people other than the patient. What we currently have available to the public is a DPS class with white mage cloak on serving as the clumsiest lampshade.

I'm okay with your explanation, but I'm not giving the devs the benefit of the doubt and inferring it for them. If their design actually is more coherent than it appears, then they can show their work. All I want is some reference in the official lore to fangs (make it a little more grounded in FF tradition), transfusions (better contextualize and define Cardio, the job's main feature that somehow makes the least amount of sense), and maybe some literal fluid manipulation like you said. That's not a huge ask to turn a job from borderline incoherent to brilliant.

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OK, so I guess you hate gunbreaker too? I have never seen people shooting at each other to protect themselves.
What about red mage? They have 'contre sixte' but it's not even a counter attack!

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Because absent a more concrete design philosophy it's just a gundam DPS that they shoehorned into a healer role. Absent a better explanation for Cardio, there is absolutely no reason why I should believe floating laser swords heal as they do damage. With what little information we have right now, the job is totally nonsensical, even within the context of FF XIV. We have never seen a chiurgeon do any sort of healing that required shooting people with laser swords, much less people other than the patient. What we currently have available to the public is a DPS class with white mage cloak on serving as the clumsiest lampshade.

I'm okay with your explanation, but I'm not giving the devs the benefit of the doubt and inferring it for them. If their design actually is more coherent than it appears, then they can show their work. All I want is some reference in the official lore to fangs (make it a little more grounded in FF tradition), transfusions (better contextualize and define Cardio, the job's main feature that somehow makes the least amount of sense), and maybe some literal fluid manipulation like you said. That's not a huge ask to turn a job from borderline incoherent to brilliant.

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I get your point, and maybe they built a blood mage and went, "well, two edgelord classes in one expansion is probably too much."

But Thinking about the Fin Funnels from a medical standpoint, they sortof remind me of surgical robots, only with lasers and not attached to a full robot cause magitec isn't limited by our silly earthing limitations. I mean, modern medicine involves using a knife to cut someone open, then stabbing them a bunch with a string attached to your stabber to make sure all the wounds are sealed back up. Medicine is basically hurting people the right way so they can heal.

It's a Sharlayan discipline so it being something heretofore unseen is logical.

Even the version of AST we use (That actually manipulates celestial aether for magicks instead of simply reading the stars as its more commonly seen type does) was originally considered sensitive information they did not want being spread to the world at large, so I'd be surprised if that didn't end up becoming an issue in the Sage quests as well.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

OK, so I guess you hate gunbreaker too? I have never seen people shooting at each other to protect themselves.
What about red mage? They have 'contre sixte' but it's not even a counter attack!

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Gunbreakers have not only been well established in prior FF games, but we're already in XIV since ARR. We know how gunblades work.

Sure, Contre Sixte isn't actually a counterattack, but it also isn't a core feature of the Red Mage's gimmick. If Cardio were a situational oGCD it wouldn't affect the theming of SGE as much, but it's pretty much THE central mechanic and it makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Gunbreakers have not only been well established in prior FF games, but we're already in XIV since ARR. We know how gunblades work.

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I feel like observing that Gunbreaker gunblades work nothing like Garlean Gunblades. Garlean Gunblades are a sword with a gun attached, (a gun with a sword attached?) while a Gunbreaker Gunblade is just a sword with chambered shell, but no barrel. The explosion which would traditionally be used to fire a projectile is instead used to create a vibration in the blade, increasing it's cutting power. I believe in XIV versus VIII there is some magic involved also (Hence why Thancred can't use it properly without aid) which may explain why they can fire... well anything per: Not a gun, but in context why they can fire a protective shell.

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

I believe in XIV versus VIII there is some magic involved also (Hence why Thancred can't use it properly without aid) which may explain why they can fire... well anything per: Not a gun, but in context why they can fire a protective shell.

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Yeah, the cartridges are filled with aether instead of gunpowder. Thancred needs someone to charge his ammo or he can't use his gunblade for more than basic swordplay.

On the First Ryne, was preparing his bullets, when back to the source Y'shtola does it

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Gunbreakers have not only been well established in prior FF games, but we're already in XIV since ARR. We know how gunblades work.

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Gunblades have been established, but not Gunbreaker. Gunblades in previous games were basically swords with a gun attached for close combat and ranged fire, though Squall and Seifer from FF 8 had a couple of gimmicks for explosions and the like. They both used gunblades, but only Squall was declared a Gunblade Specialist for SeeD. Seifer failed his test then decided to lashed out and became a Sorceress Knight, though he still used his gunblade. Either way, they weren't Gunbreakers. I know Lightning used a gunblade as well, but I don't talk about FF 13. I try to convince myself it was all a bad dream. All of them were definitely used as an inspiration for the job though, especially Seifer. Gunblades in FF XIV were all of garlean make up until Shadowbringers, which were used for close quarters combat and ranged fire, and other various magical abilities (typically used for ranged fire). There was no real mention of Gunbreaker gunblades until Shadowbringers with the addition of Hrothgar and their lore, which the Hrothgar had created to fight against the Allagans a long, long time ago. Their purpose was to break the enemy lines by, you know, breaking their guns. :p

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Gunblades have been established, but not Gunbreaker. Gunblades in previous games were basically swords with a gun attached for close combat and ranged fire, though Squall and Seifer from FF 8 had a couple of gimmicks for explosions and the like. They both used gunblades, but only Squall was declared a Gunblade Specialist for SeeD. Seifer failed his test then decided to lashed out and became a Sorceress Knight, though he still used his gunblade. Either way, they weren't Gunbreakers. I know Lightning used a gunblade as well, but I don't talk about FF 13. I try to convince myself it was all a bad dream. All of them were definitely used as an inspiration for the job though, especially Seifer. Gunblades in FF XIV were all of garlean make up until Shadowbringers, which were used for close quarters combat and ranged fire, and other various magical abilities (typically used for ranged fire). There was no real mention of Gunbreaker gunblades until Shadowbringers with the addition of Hrothgar and their lore, which the Hrothgar had created to fight against the Allagans a long, long time ago. Their purpose was to break the enemy lines by, you know, breaking their guns. :p

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Me again. So the description of Gunbreaker Gunblades I made up above was actually from my knowledge of the Gunblades from VIII. They work pretty much the same (though they ostensibly use gunpowder, not aether). Additionally since the XIV Gunbreakers have a history as Knights of an ancient Queen, they seem to match thematically with the knight theme. (as you noted, Seifer was Edea/Ultimacia's Knight, and Squall took up the position as Rinoa's) I'd say they fit fairly well as the prototype for the Gunbreaker, name aside (and given my favourite class has had about a thousand names, it's not like I'm in a position to squabble over something small like that). I will give you that One game is hardly "Well established" though.

Second point, and this is me being a bit pedantic. Garlean Gunblades explicitly don't use Magic. They're made for Garleans. That'd be a rather major design flaw given they can't use magic. Though again, The Gunbreaker style gunblade didn't show up until Shadow bringers, so again, I'm being pedantic.

Probably not the thread to be getting into the specifics of Gunbreaker though, unless anyone has thoughts on their section of the video.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

We have never seen a chiurgeon do any sort of healing that required shooting people with laser swords, much less people other than the patient.

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Is your argument really that we shouldn't have new things?

But... is this really something new?
Weapons that heal people aren't new. I remember I was pretty shocked when I watched Inuyasha and saw that his brother Sesshomaru has a magic sword that heals whoever it slashes. This really isn't too different.

All of our healers use magic to heal people, they put aether inside them and it makes pretty lights that surround and enter the target when it happens. Lasers are just a more high tech and science based way of doing this.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

OK, so I guess you hate gunbreaker too? I have never seen people shooting at each other to protect themselves.

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Ana from Overwatch:
"Am i a joke to you?"

https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/i...9490e3b7fd.jpg

Just kidding :D


But yea i also saw gunbreakers more in the damage role when playing Squall in Final Fantasy 8.
I guess there are just not enough classic FF jobs to turn into tank roles. Dark Knight for example is also more known for being a damage dealer.
Shooting at friends to protect them feels also not too good for me, too. ;)

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Is your argument really that we shouldn't have new things?

But... is this really something new?
Weapons that heal people aren't new. I remember I was pretty shocked when I watched Inuyasha and saw that his brother Sesshomaru has a magic sword that heals whoever it slashes. This really isn't too different.

All of our healers use magic to heal people, they put aether inside them and it makes pretty lights that surround and enter the target when it happens. Lasers are just a more high tech and science based way of doing this.

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Both of your examples involve a logical connection of *locality* and *causality*. The weapon is in fact a healing tool. The target of its attack is healed.

This Sage nonsense is different. Both locality and causality are broken because you attack *one thing* and then *a completely different thing* is healed. You aren't doing laser surgery. You are shooting pewpews at an enemy and then an ally is healed "because Cardia."

All I am saying is that Cardia is a poor way of theming it, because it communicates nothing flavorfully or mechanically about how/why this should work. What Cardia *actually* functions as is something that feels more vampiric than medical. If the writers would at least make a nod to Cardia being a sort of aetheric transfusion, or the nouliths being magical fangs, then it all comes together. But absent some lore explanation, there is a total disconnect as to why a *surgeon* would need to *hurt other people* in order to heal the patient.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

If the writers would at least make a nod to Cardia being a sort of aetheric transfusion, or the nouliths being magical fangs, then it all comes together. But absent some lore explanation, there is a total disconnect as to why a *surgeon* would need to *hurt other people* in order to heal the patient.

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That is true.
When we get our hands on job lore I think it would be nice if they addressed this.

Honestly though, while I can see how a detail like this could bug someone, if they don't elaborate I'm just gonna file it away under "more ludo narrative dissonance" and forget about it.
(Not that you're wrong to be concerned)

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Originally Posted by Ailuron

It looks as though im the only one that's disappointed with the new summoner rework.. removing dots.. and technically egi.. to me those make summoner unique. Now they are just a mage that casts spells that's got a primal skin on top of it. The "pet" does nothing, no active skill, no auto attack. Might as well remove it. I dont feel like I've got anything to do with the primals, they show up use a skill, disappear, you cast some spells with the associated "elemental aspect" (primal-themed AOE) within the time limit, rinse repeat. Quite salty ngl.

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SMN is my 2nd main & can't wait to try out this rework. I was surprise that SE took all the DOTS abilities away. The should have atleast brought back SHADOWFLARE. I'm going to miss TRIDIASTER, evening though they should have including BLEED so the ability would have truly been call TRIDIASTER.

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

There’s definitely SMN mains that are not thrilled about the lack of DOT and not being able to tell the carbuncle to attack. I don’t mind the egi change but the fact that I now have a glowing house pet waiting to transform instead of attack, bothers me the most. I know I’m going to really miss DOT manage since it added to the “busy feeling” that I love. BUT.. they did keep our mobility and instant cast spells that look like they had hardly any recast time. I just hope it doesn’t start to feel like a faster BLM once we get to play it.

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SMN is my 2nd main & I'm definitely going to miss the DOTS. I wish SE would have brought back SHADOW FLARE. I really not why the DOTS had to be removed.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

I didn't want them to remove the dots. No reason to. Now it's just less buttons and looks like you will be spamming ruin even more with pretty effect on top.
I did however want to pets go away.

I will miss Tri-disaster a lot. Imo it has the coolest animation. It's often a trend in SE to remove abilities with the cool animations :/

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I definitely agree. I hated the fact they removed Shadowflare. I will miss tri-disaster (they still should have added a third DOT to the feature)

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Glad they added Geomancer to the game, just a shame they had to kill SMN to do it.

I'm not impressed by shiny things and SMN's changes only upset me.
*Removing DoTs is the first slap in the face.
*Now SMN is a stance dancing job like Bard instead of it's own unique job.
*Not even sure if Egis are even useful anymore or just a place holder for Bahamut and Phoenix.
*Still doesn't fix the key issues like Demi ghosting abilities.
*Couldn't even be bother to add Leviathan, Shiva, or Ramuh stances.
*Remove all the shiny Primal animation, you basically switch stances to cast different elemental spells i.e. Geomancer.

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I agree with some of your points.
*i dont think SE should have removed all the DOTS. Atleast should have kept TRI-DISASTER. I miss Shadowflare.
*I totally agree they should have added LEVIATHAN, SHIVA, & RAMUH to the rotation. To me, those 3 along with Titan, Ifrit, & Garuda, are the fundamental primals in FF games.

I enjoy the job actions trailer. Some job changes were MEH while other were cool. My main is RDM, then SMN, & then MCH. Looking to try out BLM. Been awhile since I played it. Some personal thoughts & just my opinion:

RDM - I am happy with some of the changes. I always thot that verFlare, verHoly, & Scorch should have been AOEs from the start but I will enjoy using them for single & AOEs rotations. What I'm kind of disappointed about is that I wish SE could have added abilities like verWater, verBlizzard, verQuake, just to name a few.

SMN - Definitely enjoyed the animation & will have to "re-learn" the job. But I'm not to thrill with SE removing all the DOTS. Should kept Tri-disaster and/or brought back Shadowflare.

MCH - Will enjoy playing it with the new abilities but basically from the video, it was kind of meh, at least to me.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

This Sage nonsense is different. Both locality and causality are broken because you attack *one thing* and then *a completely different thing* is healed. You aren't doing laser surgery. You are shooting pewpews at an enemy and then an ally is healed "because Cardia."

All I am saying is that Cardia is a poor way of theming it, because it communicates nothing flavorfully or mechanically about how/why this should work. What Cardia *actually* functions as is something that feels more vampiric than medical. If the writers would at least make a nod to Cardia being a sort of aetheric transfusion, or the nouliths being magical fangs, then it all comes together. But absent some lore explanation, there is a total disconnect as to why a *surgeon* would need to *hurt other people* in order to heal the patient.

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You know what, I agree. It doesn't bug me, because if I let myself think about such things to that degree other areas of this game would have already long since cost me my hair, but I would likewise prefer to see at least a gesture towards a better explanation.

That said, in the meantime, I'm just going to just file it under "I steal life-essence-stuff; then, I give life-essence-stuff," because even that is more intuitive than, say, SCH's use of an "Aetherpool" or WHM's turning Conjury into White Magic (in the sense of Glare/Dia).

Why could SCH not be given Miasma/Fester/Tri-disaster now that SMN lost those?

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Originally Posted by Nighthawky2010

SMN - Definitely enjoyed the animation & will have to "re-learn" the job. But I'm not to thrill with SE removing all the DOTS. Should kept Tri-disaster and/or brought back Shadowflare.

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Honestly I feel like it's good riddance of SMN's dots... Only because the job had a ton of different things going on: dots, egis, trances, demis, aetherflow - it really looked like all over the place regading its design. The idea of dot management works better for BRD because they don't have as many different directions of design going on... But then, perhaps now that there's only 1 job with dot managing (that's not even that focused on), they can design a future full fledged one.