This game has serious free-rider problems and it's getting worse. A suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

I usually don't even talk about "what do disabled people want" because I don't personally know any. I can put myself in some imaginary perspective of a disabled person built from my understanding of what a disabled person does and wants but it would be faulty.

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I'm disabled...I mean kinda. I guess.

I have nerve damage in my hands that is under control but my nerves physically can't handle this game if I play on a keyboard. Too many buttons. Controller is better.

Also have ADHD and dyslexia. I can do the fights and learn them but I'll never be able to do current savage content because I can't reliably hyper focus on the dance for extended periods repeatedly. I'll have one amazing pull where I do flawlessly and the next pull I'm a trash fire.

Game is fine. The forum is another bag of chips.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I am being honest with myself I would be fine with it. I perosnally do not view being removed as they end of the world why would I want to play with a group of a people that had no interest in plaything with me?

Though once again it is not mood swings I just have certain standards that most would find unreasonable or unfair.

In the end I have been removed from parties I just queue again people take being removed far too personally when often times the action is not done out if malice just turns has the voting majority is either neutral or has no desire to play with person B. So if I am removed I just chalk it up to well guess said group does not want to play along with me.

Though I will bite though how exactly am I wrecking myself? What reason do I have to put others ahead of my own or those around me enjoyment?

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To be honest, if I get removed I take it very personally. But I don't really stress over it that much because I know that the people who agreed to the kick will have bad things happening to them soon. At least from what I learned from school, the teachers who wanted to ruin my grades both were hospitalized because they broke one of their legs and so new teachers came I could correct my grades. I did not do anything. Misfortunate random events happen to everybody, just in my opinion they are not really that random.

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What reason do I have to put others ahead of my own or those around me enjoyment?

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There isn't one for both you and me. It is just that, tagging a friend to ensure the kick will pass is not fair. Let's look it that way, most people adjust to what the majority of players are expecting them to do, it's something like a social norm. A guy like that gets matched with a premade group of two or three and gets silently kicked without any explanation whatsoever. Do you know how many different conclusions one can make from an encounter like that? They might self-blame, get angry, be left in utter confusion, and so on. In the end, the probability of them being ready to meet the random premade group standards the next time they get matched is very low, pretty non-existent. Almost the same as the probability of them meeting each other. But the thing is, all premade groups with higher standards who silently kick another person are just passing the problem to the next group with higher standards to teach that guy what is really expected of them. And once they are taught they can now start sharing the higher standards with others as well.

So to put it simply, not sharing your standards with people causes dysfunction and you are basically isolating yourself. Humans are social beings and need societies to grow their characters. I know that this is not real life but the way I see silently kicks is as opportunities missed. I know it's a game but still.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

So far the best combo I've had going with whatever I end up getting is Beast and defensives. Doesn't make me an impressive party member but it gives healers with profane more openings to go ham.

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Even something as ‘useless’ as platebearer will still mean your healers can leave you alone longer before having to babysit you. Nothing’s more fun to my eyes than seeing myself getting more opportunities hurling Glares/Broil/Malefic on top of party’s enmity list consistently… until a tankbuster aimed directly at myself (hopefully not, lmao). It’s the “Yes I choose not to farm essence but I want my rewards so I hope my party will do the rest of the work”-players that are inevitably contributing to the peril. But should we be surprised? That’s what Yoshi-P wants. /shrug

Also yes, there are actually relatively easy ways to farm the essences. Setting aside 10-20m of productive farming with an active party is enough essences to last you probably a week or two depending on your classes preferences and options. Naturally if you are versatile with your classes choices it will lasts you longer because you have more options of essences you can use than not.

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Originally Posted by Wolfsbane706

ITT: Players who have forgotten what it's like to be new to certain content, players who have forgotten what it's like to be new completely, players who are generally pretty fine with the status quo, and the occasional troll.

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Bruh there's being new, then there's trying to chain uncomboed chaos thrust to sonic thrust, or spamming nocturnal aspected helios before the shields even have a chance to drop because "it's easier to aoe than single target".

Most people in here aren't asking for some orange parsing Adonis that can singlehandedly solo e12s while taking stunning gposes in the middle of the battle, just basic competency.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

The amount of people that clearly pay no attention and/or don’t care at all about fellow players is astonishing and, frankly, depressing.

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That's their loss. To me, engaging with the boss is much more fun than floor tanking. I don't care when someone gets a "free ride" from me because I had fun engaging in the fight. I love being one of a handful of players left alive at the end of the boss fight. I feel like I've come through for my fellow players. Most players are trying their hardest, and I pity their ignorance and/or poor reflexes when they go down. I don't resent it.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Then you have the usual clueless players that seemingly got to level cap without ever reading the tooltips of their skills

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Ignorance is correctable. I'll be forever grateful to the player who first made me aware of The Balance Discord server.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Is it wrong to think that players performing terribly should be given a penalty and ideally be denied any form of reward for the content they’re running?

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I left WoW to get away from this toxic design philosophy. My workday is spent dealing with deadlines, performance reviews, and merit-based pay. I play video games to get away from all that, not to indulge in more of it. The current system in this game is great because the incentives to do well already exist in the form of commendations. My goal in every PUG is to get every commendation possible. It's unattainable, and I often fall far short of it, but I still enjoy striving for it.

Some of your suggestions sound absolutely awful:

1) The interests of the party members are already aligned. No enters an instance hoping for repeated wipes.
2) Why should you get a bonus for going in with better gear? If you already have better gear, you have even less use for the rewards than the lesser geared players. Your proposal only expands the gap between the geared and ungeared.
3) Everyone plays for their own reasons. For us, that reason is to get better. Others have their own reasons. Players current have the freedom to play the way they want. The game shouldn't have to remind and force you to get better. Less experienced players already know they need to get better. The game doesn't need to punch them in the face with that fact at every opportunity.
4) It's only going to increase the toxicity exponentially. If you want an existing example, spend a couple of days on the WoW forums. Their current "everything is an e-sport" design philosophy is part of the reason that this game is currently surging in popularity.

The system you're proposing is pretty much implemented already in WoW. I prefer to play FFXIV because their design team remembers that this is a game and that a game's purpose is to be enjoyed, not to marginalize the less skillful players so that others can feel that all the time that they've invested into a video game is worth more than it really is.

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Originally Posted by Wolfsbane706

ITT: Players who have forgotten what it's like to be new to certain content, players who have forgotten what it's like to be new completely, players who are generally pretty fine with the status quo, and the occasional troll.

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no one is talking about those players, though

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

To be honest, if I get removed I take it very personally. But I don't really stress over it that much because I know that the people who agreed to the kick will have bad things happening to them soon. At least from what I learned from school, the teachers who wanted to ruin my grades both were hospitalized because they broke one of their legs and so new teachers came I could correct my grades. I did not do anything. Misfortunate random events happen to everybody, just in my opinion they are not really that random.



There isn't one for both you and me. It is just that, tagging a friend to ensure the kick will pass is not fair. Let's look it that way, most people adjust to what the majority of players are expecting them to do, it's something like a social norm. A guy like that gets matched with a premade group of two or three and gets silently kicked without any explanation whatsoever. Do you know how many different conclusions one can make from an encounter like that? They might self-blame, get angry, be left in utter confusion, and so on. In the end, the probability of them being ready to meet the random premade group standards the next time they get matched is very low, pretty non-existent. Almost the same as the probability of them meeting each other. But the thing is, all premade groups with higher standards who silently kick another person are just passing the problem to the next group with higher standards to teach that guy what is really expected of them. And once they are taught they can now start sharing the higher standards with others as well.


So to put it simply, not sharing your standards with people causes dysfunction and you are basically isolating yourself. Humans are social beings and need societies to grow their characters. I know that this is not real life but the way I see silently kicks is as opportunities missed. I know it's a game but still.

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A Teacher that went out if their way to ruin mine and many other special needs children grades, and made a comment to another teacher that they refused to help a student cause they smelled became the principles of the school and won teacher of the year for that year. I fail to see your point either you believe in that stuff or you don't. Personally I think people grasp onto such things as a means to explain away things that either make them uncomfortable or make themselves feel better around a negative situation or maybe positive if something negative happens to another. In end to be frank you have no idea bad things will happen a part of you may wish for it to happen but the reality is your wish or desire most likely had no impact on why the negative thing happened. Cause I will tell you think once I kick someone they are done their presence noonger exists in my head so at that point can you really say if something bad happens to me it was because I kicked you if I do not even remember your face or even your characters name? That said that mindset seems far darker and anti social then anything I have said or done.

Either way

That being said not trying to be dismissive but the entirety of your second half of post largely boils down well that sounds like a you problem. I personally do not think it is a good use of time to think about what impact my actions will have on other people especially random people. I mean if that is your style fine, but let us be real I do not care if someone views my action of removing them as personal slight against them. That seems more like a personal self esteem issue then something that I should be cognizant of when I am playing with others. I do not expect people to take my personal issues into consideration when they play with me so why would I should I care about others personal issues? I already have my own worries and problems I do not need to add another's to that equation.

I did agree to teach others I am not a good teacher nor do I have any desire to be one. I also do not mind how people play they can play however they want just if it happens to be around me and a friend expect to be kicked if we find it inconvenient sure it might not be fair to the person, but unfortunately the system allows for it so it is free game in my opinion.

In short it appears the premise of why I should care is because my actionsn a negative impact on others and potentially limit my own possibilities and experiences as a human cause I am cutting off the chance encounter before I could see what it blossoms to.

That may be true if I valued such things, I am happy with my small tight group of friends, and personally I am not much of a social person I had the time of my life during covid. I just got to be did not feel any sense of pressure from the outside world, I get to work from wherever I want now only having to come into the office one to four times a month depending. Outside the loss of life and suffering across the board many faced I cannot say I did not enjoy the overall experience on a personal level. I do wish it did not have to come at the expense of world wide suffering but I right as rain.

I use to joke about it but covid did show I would / may be fine living away from civilization if I could sadly I do not have that kind of money and not healthy enough to do so. Childhood cancer is a bitch on the body. In general I felt happier during the lockdowns then ever before even my friends, family, and therapist noticed I was in the best mood they have ever saw me during the pandemic. In end maybe really am just different from others that is okay with me.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Sounds like a good way for FF14 to lose 20% of its subs.

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You make a valid point, but you only scratched the surface of it. You only lose 20% initially. It's not like the bottom 20% leaves and suddenly everyone is in the top 80%. Percentiles are based on the current population, so the bottom 20% leaves, and then the players that used to be in the 20-36% range are now the bottom 20%. Then they leave, and this repeats until you're left exclusively with what was originally the top 20%, except that now the good players are the bottom 20% while the god tier players are the top 80%. The proposed system is even more of a game killer than you're suggesting.

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Originally Posted by Wolfsbane706

ITT: Players who have forgotten what it's like to be new to certain content, players who have forgotten what it's like to be new completely, players who are generally pretty fine with the status quo, and the occasional troll.

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The people we are complaining are not new players. Most of us in this thread have, at length, gone out of our way to explain we are not talking about new players. Your response is disingenuous.

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Originally Posted by Alaeacus

The people we are complaining are not new players. Most of us in this thread have, at length, gone out of our way to explain we are not talking about new players. Your response is disingenuous.

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that's a common theme throughout the threads with this exact premise:
people coming into those threads and pretending it's about sprouts just so they can talk down on those so called "elitists" and invalidate their experiences by categorising them as toxic individuals, yet obviously either having never read the contents of said thread or doing it to show how "nice" they and how bad these players are

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

that's a common theme throughout the threads with this exact premise:
people coming into those threads and pretending it's about sprouts just so they can talk down on those so called "elitists" and invalidate their experiences by categorising them as toxic individuals, yet obviously either having never read the contents of said thread or doing it to show how "nice" they and how bad these players are

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oh, I am not talking about sprouts at all. lazy people are going to be lazy, no matter what is implemented, nor will they care about what is implemented. what I am saying, is from my experience as a player in another game, with this kind of system, it frustrated me to where I quit playing that game because nothing I did improved it. could be the people I was running with, but if you are always running with the same level of player, there will be no improvement and thus, frustration.

which is something the "elites" obviously never have to worry about. but I hardly need the game to be telling me I am not as good as they are as well as them doing so. no one does. and I doubt I am alone in that sentiment.

kick bad players, let them deal with it. best solution.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

"But think of the disabled people" is the go to "but I want to lick paint" excuse. A lot of disabled people do perfectly fine with difficult content.

What's next? "I want it to be easy because I have anxiety!" ? "Think of the game journalists!" ?

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Yeah let's just throw people with more severe disability under the bus right? What a stupid response. Kudos to those who perform well but not everyone is the same, I know players with no physical disability but they can still really struggle with content until they have had plenty time to learn. Those people need patience and understanding. Not a "You are not good enough so no rewards for you, oh and also we will further reward those people that already got the nice shinies from savage and ultimate"

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Originally Posted by raelgun

Few things here.

why do people use people with disabilities as a weapon here, don't, you are worse then people insulting people with disabilities, don't use them for your agenda.

The game has so few rewards for the 1%, most of the game is accessible to most players, you are making it sound like theres load of inaccessible rewards which isn't true.

The game actually needs more rewards for the 10% and above, the midcore and above, give more players an incentive to keep at it with midcore content, for this they can't freeride as easy or at all.

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I'm not using anyone as a weapon. Yes most of the game is accessible and it's great, echo also makes things more accessible at a later date.. also great. This new suggestion makes the game less accessible feeling and more catering to a smaller group. That's my point, you wanna throw a group of people under the bus because some people leech. It's like when people argue against state benefit because some people abuse the system, without a thought or care for people who rely on that system.

The game has so many nice rewards for top 10% you get the dyable gear from savage, you get the mount, the titles, the shiny weapons from savage, pvp mounts etc. If you need more stuff to lord over people and feel accomplished that's a you problem honestly. I am not even against adding more content overall say. But making ALL content % performance reward based? Fuck off with that nonsense.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

Thinking most disabled players are struggling to even play the game feels pretty insulting and patronizing. Even if the intention wasn't harmful, don't use us for your agenda please.

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Where did I say most are struggling? I didn't. I said the suggestion can be damaging to those people who DO struggle due to said disability. But hey screw me for having concern for those people. I am well aware we have some amazing players with disabilities that have cleared ultimate. But I play with individuals who struggle with the mid core content and the stress of having ALL combat content be rewarded on % performance and then adding extra icing for top 1% on top will make them feel unwanted and stressed? I have discussed it with them. I play with them for hours and hours doing content together because we want to experience all content together. They already take many steps to improve their own playing experience. A suggestion like this is not good for everyone, it punishes leeches at the expense of other people is the point I was very clearly getting at. All for the sake of OP's annoyance at a leech they can easily take the time to report.

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Originally Posted by Alaeacus

The people we are complaining are not new players. Most of us in this thread have, at length, gone out of our way to explain we are not talking about new players. Your response is disingenuous.

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If you're not targeting new players, then why are the OP's proposed remedies primarily aimed at them? For example:

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

At the end of an instance, you’re rewarded with a medal based on a general measure of your contribution to the party depending on damage, healing (excluding overhealing), damage mitigation and resurrection/raise casts. If you don’t pass a certain threshold, let us call it the “basic decency level”, you should be denied any kind of reward.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Then, increase the probability of dropping rare items if you do particularly well, so that those few players carrying the whole alliance are at least awarded something for their effort. Just like FATEs, high damage and spot on healing result in better medals and each medal is associated with a multiplier that is then used to increase your reward in various forms. In the case of a huge performance disparity, reward the carriers with a special platinum badge that guarantees or significantly increases the drop rate of the rarest items in the instance (this should be a rare occurrence, hopefully, so it wouldn't make rare drops too common).

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

please consider allowing full parties and pre-formed alliances to reserve an instance in large scale content such as Eureka and Save the Queen, while scaling the bosses’ hp to the number of parties in the instance.

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The OP may not be complaining about new players, but they sure are trying to water down their experience with worse gear and longer queues for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Those people need patience and understanding. Not a "You are not good enough so no rewards for you

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Classic Strawman. You are arguing against a case that noone made. Nobody is taking anything away from anyone. Everyone here is arguing for more reward and acknowledgment for people who ACTUALLY do more than the bare minimum in groups.

If you see reward to those who contribute more as punishment to those who don't, that says more about you than anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Alaeacus

Classic Strawman. You are arguing against a case that noone made. Nobody is taking anything away from anyone. Everyone here is arguing for more reward and acknowledgment for people who ACTUALLY do more than the bare minimum in groups.

If you see reward to those who contribute more as punishment to those who don't, that says more about you than anyone else.

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I dont care what your arguement is, thats what that system is saying. You didnt do good enough so you get nothing. Simple as that.

You clear the content you get your reward, you dont need SE to stroke your ego because you did better dps than someone else. Go to ff logs and swoon over yourself there.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

I dont care what your arguement is, thats what that system is saying. You didnt do good enough so you get nothing. Simple as that.

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Then you lack reading comprehension. They attended, so they get base rewards, not extra. It's clear you are now doing nothing but troll this thread in hopes it gets closed.

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Originally Posted by Alaeacus

Then you lack reading comprehension. They attended, so they get base rewards, not extra. It's clear you are now doing nothing but troll this thread in hopes it gets closed.

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" and reaching this minimum threshold makes you eligible for normal rewards."

This is from OP's post. He has set a MINIMUM for normal rewards. So if you are below it is reasonable to infer you will get nothing. Go learn how to read yourself love. If you can only call troll it's clear you have nothing else of value to say.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

" and reaching this minimum threshold makes you eligible for normal rewards."

This is from OP's post. He has set a MINIMUM for normal rewards. So if you are below it is reasonable to infer you will get nothing. Go learn how to read yourself love. If you can only call troll it's clear you have nothing else of value to say.

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Catch up to the conversation. OP amended his thoughts, and others gave more reasonable suggestions...love.

Besides, even if there is a minimum, are you implying that 90% of the playerbase couldn't reach this minimum? You have such a low opinion of these players my friend. You keep repeating this "upper 10%" nonsense as if ANYONE would set a minimum that only 10% could reach. That's Chicken Little mentality.

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Originally Posted by Alaeacus

Catch up to the conversation. OP amended his thoughts, and others gave more reasonable suggestions...love.

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Yh in the 24hrs + since I responded and I come back I will go read all 15 pages. I respond to OP's post. If he amended cool. The suggestion is still the same in his first post unedited as I just quoted that now. He should update his OP.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

it must be a horrible curse to be so godlike that you know the reasons for everything

lazy and unwilling to do the work is one thing, but you, you can tell if they have computer issues, or car troubles by simply thinking about it. you are truly amazing, and should be worshipped as a god because you truly know all.

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Computer issues sounds like a horrible copout for an excuse.

You will never propose a feasible solution to this that does not hamper newer players to the duties.

The best you can do is ask for more stringent item level checks for the expansion trials, so people aren't running with gear dated an entire expansion old. I don't think any of the solutions will help to remove toxicity in any regard. You'll just end up with a bunch of newer players that are angry at both the content and the game because they're being expected to perform at some arbitrary baseline when they're new to the duty and prone to making mistakes. This shouldn't even be entertained as a viable solution. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

Computer issues sounds like a horrible copout for an excuse.

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I'm also not sympathetic. Like those people who have car trouble on the side of the freeway and create traffic jams. Sure, a few of you may have run over a big nail. However I'd bet MOST of you have car trouble because you don't take care of your cars.

I crash to desktop sometimes in CLL, and I'm back in the game before the next boss fight starts. If your computer caught fire or exploded, why did you let your computer get to that state to begin with? Sounds like you don't take care of it, and say "Oh these things just happen". Right...

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Originally Posted by Alaeacus

I'm also not sympathetic. Like those people who have car trouble on the side of the freeway and create traffic jams. Sure, a few of you may have run over a big nail. However I'd bet MOST of you have car trouble because you don't take care of your cars.

I crash to desktop sometimes in CLL, and I'm back in the game before the next boss fight starts. If your computer caught fire or exploded, why did you let your computer get to that state to begin with? Sounds like you don't take care of it, and say "Oh these things just happen". Right...

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Lot's of people have car trouble because they had a mechanic that didn't do their job properly.. just saying xD Nothing to do with them.. so far as they knew up to that point the car was meant to be fine and then kaput! Would say some more sympathy is due.
Not everyone has the basic car maint skills.. similar to be said for PC maintenence.. though that one is a lot easier at least. I hated working on some french cars so small and finicky getting to certain things. But 4x4 tyres were so heavy for me to lift .-.

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Originally Posted by Alaeacus

I'm also not sympathetic. Like those people who have car trouble on the side of the freeway and create traffic jams. Sure, a few of you may have run over a big nail. However I'd bet MOST of you have car trouble because you don't take care of your cars.

I crash to desktop sometimes in CLL, and I'm back in the game before the next boss fight starts. If your computer caught fire or exploded, why did you let your computer get to that state to begin with? Sounds like you don't take care of it, and say "Oh these things just happen". Right...

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nah, that shit happens sometimes
last month, my gpu just up and decided to die and take my motherboard's pci-e slot with it and there were zero indications that it was going to happen
it had been undervolted, underclocked and had an aftermarket cooler that kept it at lower temps than the original one with extra heatsinks for the other stuff on the pcb as well and yet - some of them blew up rendered my whole pc useless until I got new parts

and considering I clean my PC monthly and redid the thermal paste on said gpu twice a year, I can tell you that it was in good condition

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Yeah let's just throw people with more severe disability under the bus right? What a stupid response. Kudos to those who perform well but not everyone is the same, I know players with no physical disability but they can still really struggle with content until they have had plenty time to learn. Those people need patience and understanding. Not a "You are not good enough so no rewards for you, oh and also we will further reward those people that already got the nice shinies from savage and ultimate"

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The only "stupid" response is immediately defaulting to the strawman argument of "what about the disabled?!" Bluntly stated, the amount of people severely disabled to the point of being physically incapable of reaching several of the proposed suggestions both from the OP and others wouldn't be able to complete normal mode in its current form to begin with. So it's a moot point. Furthermore, you can't design a game around the 0.001%. 99.9% of the players this thread is referring to are simply people leeching off the backs of others and wanting the same rewards while doing so. I'm sorry but someone who purposely suicides themselves in DR shouldn't be able to complete their relic yet the present system allows just that because so long as they don't make it blatantly obvious, you literally can't do anything to stop them.

All in all, this is a tired and, frankly, patronizing excuse. Very few truly disabled people want to be coddled. Insisting the game remain both laughably simple and allow for wanton abuse all because someone, somewhere might be "too disabled" is downright insulting.

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Originally Posted by Wolfsbane706

ITT: Players who have forgotten what it's like to be new to certain content, players who have forgotten what it's like to be new completely, players who are generally pretty fine with the status quo, and the occasional troll.

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You aren't new by level 80. And you aren't new queuing into current endgame content like DR. Regardless, people aren't referring to new players but those too lazy to put forth even the slightest bit of effort. We've had threads where someone proudly voices how they won't use several of their abilities because they dislike their look; how they won't do positionals on melee DPS or AoE at all because they're boring. Basically, people who knowingly go out of their way to contribute less.

yesterday i went inside Save The Qeen DG, in last boss...it was my first run, the mechs are so fast, that i stopped to count how many deaths i had and the party didnt kicked me till completion. Besides, Half of the raid baild at the beguinning, and i really apreciated all theyr patience and raises! At least i could keep 3 disaster up!

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

You will never propose a feasible solution to this that does not hamper newer players to the duties.

The best you can do is ask for more stringent item level checks for the expansion trials, so people aren't running with gear dated an entire expansion old. I don't think any of the solutions will help to remove toxicity in any regard. You'll just end up with a bunch of newer players that are angry at both the content and the game because they're being expected to perform at some arbitrary baseline when they're new to the duty and prone to making mistakes. This shouldn't even be entertained as a viable solution. Lol.

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The item level system itself is flawed for the fact that you can still be several magnitudes weaker then a player of the same item level based on what pieces you decided to actually upgrade.

I've seen people rolling with with level 30-40 weapons in HW content sometimes.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

The item level system itself is flawed for the fact that you can still be several magnitudes weaker then a player of the same item level based on what pieces you decided to actually upgrade.

I've seen people rolling with with level 30-40 weapons in HW content sometimes.

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Obviously. That goes without saying. I never said it wasn't inherently flawed. But let's face it if you're going to look at something pragmatic then looking at more stringent Item Level checks is a good start. You know, considering they already don't exist for the primals you encounter via the leveling story. I hope I need not tell you this is ridiculous? regardless of the flaws therein.

Many other proposals such as introducing reward sanctioning or additional reward will only lead to newer players having a poor experience when they're having their rewards neutered, and for no other reason than the simple fact they were new and inexperienced.

Sorry but you just won't find a system that will solve laziness unless you want to seriously propose to introduce metering/metric-based queue matching or something

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Obviously. That goes without saying. I never said it wasn't inherently flawed. But let's face it if you're going to look at something pragmatic then looking at more stringent Item Level checks is a good start. You know, considering they already don't exist for the primals you encounter via the leveling story. I hope I need not tell you this is ridiculous?

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Its easyer level cap anything, but some content in the game needs pratice. Im well geared to hells kiers extreme, this trial its outdated and i still see many level 80 players making mistake in mechs, one other day just told us "its been long i dot play this one" he died, tries again and succseded.

experience dont come along with cap numbers or just levels.

If u use a full plated peasant in battlefield instead of a experieced samurai, the peasant will surely fail, no matter how many weapons armors you give him.

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Originally Posted by Fellgon

Its easyer level cap anything, but some content in the game needs pratice. Im well geared to hells kiers extreme, this trial its outdated and i still see many level 80 players making mistake in mechs, one other day just told us "its been long i dot play this one" he died, tries again and succseded.

experience dont come along with cap numbers or just levels.

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People will always make a mistake it's that simple. Nothing will stop people from making mistakes or forgetting encounters, especially with the number of encounters in the game. Yes, capping Item Level is easy, in fact, it's an utter joke, but in the same vein, some people don't even give the luxury to make sure they're even remotely adequately geared for their respective level or even expansion.

If you don't see why it isn't an issue having no Item Level requirement on fights in an expansion then I really don't know what to tell you. Beyond a certain point no amount of skill will allow you to overcome a gear disparity if every mechanic is going to flat out kill you.

Shout out to the Summoner that showed up in Story Mode Titania wearing Sky Rat boots and level 70 artifact gear btw.

I do think a stricter ilvl requirement would go a long way. Cause you see some scary things . . .

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Originally Posted by Awha

I do think a stricter ilvl requirement would go a long way. Cause you see some scary things . . .

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I almost lost faith....

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Originally Posted by Awha

I do think a stricter ilvl requirement would go a long way. Cause you see some scary things . . .

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This I can agree on, yeah. It's very, very easy to gear up in this game. There should be stricter item level requirements to reflect that.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I almost lost faith....

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I get I am an ass, but contrary to what many may feel I really do not "always" look forward to removing people. :smirk:

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Originally Posted by Joven

because they want the BiS weapon

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You know, the relic weapon has never, in the 8 years since this game was reborn, been 'Best in Spec'. If players are suffering through the relic grind for anything except glamour rights, they've been sadly misled.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

You know, the relic weapon has never, in the 8 years since this game was reborn, been 'Best in Spec'. If players are suffering through the relic grind for anything except glamour rights, they've been sadly misled.

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The difference is negligible; even moreso in the case of players who aren't into hardcore min-maxing in the first place.

Actual player skill will always matter more then the theoeretical 1% of extra DPS optimal substats would provide.