Pld buff or War nerf in 1.22?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peptaru

What is the timer on foresight? What is the timer on aegis boon?
Can you parry or block magical damage?
Do you take damage from attacks blocked with aegis boon?
How many parry/partial parry do you get without foresight? I hardly see any.... Idk why parry is referenced so often.
I'd reference Vengeance way more often if trying to make the mitigation point.....

---

The point is Both Aegis boon and foresight make dmg 0, but if a pld block an attack you see something like this. You partially block coincounters 10 ton swipe for 1567 dmg. You partially parry coincounters 10 ton swipe for 257 dmg. That's an big diffrence meaning that war has more hp can heal takes less dmg than pld and does dmg.

So war does 2 of the same things pld can and does 1 of them better and then it has dps. War is DD/heal/dmg reduction tank while pld is Heal/slightly dmg reduction tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

@ Nullie

Turning PLD into a better DD is NOT how to fix this.

---

Where did I say they should be a dd? I never said they should be a tanking dd. I said they should be brought up to standards. I don't know how this can be done honestly without one class being placed in the same position. Believe me, I want paladins up there as well on the front. This is just a bad situation all around.

Another thought:

Maybe WAR should lose Collusion (which doesn't seem in flavor at all).. and instead, gain an AOE provoke like War Drum.

That coupled with a Rampage Attack nerf should do the trick.. WAR loses some DD strength when tanking but can still hold hate easily.

I'll put a new list together in a moment...

Idc what anyone says but pld does need a dmg boost doing 20 dmg ws is retarded the eminty bonus from those ws don't help at all when you do 20 dmg ws.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

I'm building a party, there is a WAR and a PLD seeking... I could either invite the PLD, who will take slightly less curing to keep alive, or I could invite a WAR who will tank 90% as well, keep hate just as well and act as a full-fledged DD on top of it all. The only thing it will take is a few extra cures from a WHM to make up the difference.

Why would I ever invite the PLD?

---

So you agree that both should therefore be performing at similar capacities.

Quote:

---

Make PLD a better DD while tanking - A bad idea that just muddies the water between PLD and WAR. Jobs are supposed to stress differences in roles.

---

I don't see how a guy with a sword and shield would ever get confused for a guy using a two-handed axe. Jobs are there to enhance roles, which has absolutely nothing to do with damage potential as damage potential relative to generated threat/enmity is part of tanking as well.

Quote:

---

Make WAR a worse DD while tanking - The most viable option. Force WAR to choose between being a DD or tank via their abilities. This is already part of WAR's current design. Many of their offensive abilities automatically remove their defensive abilities.

---

This I can agree with. It should be a little more pronounced, though.

Quote:

---

Reducing Accuracy while tanking seems to be a perfectly reasonable fix for WAR. But if there is one thing I know, ppl hate all nerf with no benefit.

---

It's less that and more people not trustful of how classes are balanced in FF games. Speaking for myself, acc was unbalanced in FFXI and I fear placing too much emphasis on it would create problems.

Quote:

---

Rampage: Increases your attack speed, but (significantly) reduces your attack power for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land. Effect fades upon moving or reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Berserk.

Berzerk: Increases your attack power and (significantly) reduces your defense with each successful attack. Effect resets upon taking damage and fades upon reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Rampage.

---

I guess that's better, but as I said, the roles should be separated in a more pronounced way. That's why I leaned towards stat scaling in stances.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Firon

People keep saying war Dps is not good but i haven't seen anyone dps on mrd normally. I would like see an mrd's parser on a Boss fight but it wont happen cause its either blm or mnk >_>

---

Well it depends. War does more dmg in AE. Less on Single. But Even on single, War does a fairly descent amount. Not too far off from Mnk. Not to mention they have the best tanking ability atm.

One way though which would be nice, though I doubt it could/would happen at this point. It could give both the option at playing different roles. Lower a warriors magic defense significantly while increasing a paladins. Wouldn't it be nice to where some Nm's/bosses have awesomely super duper magic attacks that rip through a warrior, while a paladin can resist and even block them with the shield and take much less damage? While on the flip side a warrior can be strong against physical nm's/bosses ect.

Edit: This is not a suggestion. This is only an idea that I wish kind of would have happened.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Holyomen

Give Paladin more HP than GLA.
Make Holy Succor instant cast and cut the MP cost in half.
Then give Paladin some serious Healing Potency gear and self Refresh.
Problem solved.

---

What this guy said.

Make PLD such a great healer, similar to DNC, that he doesn't really require a WHM thus freeing up a spot for another DD in the party or letting a second WHM do DD. That way having a PLD in the party allows for more DPS, which will negate WAR's DD in comparison.

Also, a PLD that can cure quickly and continuously will also be able to generate more enmity, again negating WAR's enmity abilities in comparison.

One BIG advantage everyone seems to forget that PLD has over WAR is raise.
Imagine this, the first party that defeats Garuda and the only one left alive is the tank.
The chest appears but the 5 min clock starts till everyone is kicked out.
If the tank is a PLD he can raise a WHM and start getting everyone up to claim their chest.
If the tank is a WAR everyone is going to be grinding their microphone's in their teeth in utter disgust.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Holyomen

What this guy said.

Make PLD such a great healer, similar to DNC, that he doesn't really require a WHM thus freeing up a spot for another DD in the party or letting a second WHM do DD. That way having a PLD in the party allows for more DPS, which will negate WAR's DD in comparison.

Also, a PLD that can cure quickly and continuously will also be able to generate more enmity, again negating WAR's enmity abilities in comparison.

One BIG advantage everyone seems to forget that PLD has over WAR is raise.
Imagine this, the first party that defeats Garuda and the only one left alive is the tank.
The chest appears but the 5 min clock starts till everyone is kicked out.
If the tank is a PLD he can raise a WHM and start getting everyone up to claim their chest.
If the tank is a WAR everyone is going to be grinding their microphone's in their teeth in utter disgust.

---

What this guy said? You are what this guy said. You just quoted yourself there you know.

Derp.

Changes:


MRD:

• Rampage: Increases your attack speed, but (significantly) reduces your attack power for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land. Effect fades upon moving or reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Berserk.

WAR:

• Collusion Warmonger: Put on a threatening display, increasing enmity generation and drawing the attacks of the target and nearby enemies while lowering their critical attack rate.

GLD:

• Rage of Halone: Delivers a fivefold melee attack at low accuracy. Generates massive emnity when executed from behind. Combo bonus: Increased Accuracy
  
• Ageis Boon: Blocks the next incoming physical or magic attack and grants HP in proportion to damage taken.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Changes:


MRD:

• Rampage: Increases your attack speed, but (significantly) reduces your attack power for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land. Effect fades upon moving or reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Berserk.

WAR:

• Collusion Warmonger: Put on a threatening display, increasing enmity generation and drawing the attacks of the target and nearby enemies while lowering their critical attack rate.

GLD:

• Rage of Halone: Delivers a fivefold melee attack at low accuracy. Generates massive emnity when executed from behind. Combo bonus: Increased Accuracy
  
• Ageis Boon: Blocks the next incoming physical or magic attack and grants HP in proportion to damage taken.

---

Now we're getting somewhere. Like'd.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Changes:


MRD:

• Rampage: Increases your attack speed, but (significantly) reduces your attack power for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land. Effect fades upon moving or reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Berserk.

WAR:

• Collusion Warmonger: Put on a threatening display, increasing enmity generation and drawing the attacks of the target and nearby enemies while lowering their critical attack rate.

GLD:

• Rage of Halone: Delivers a fivefold melee attack at low accuracy. Generates massive emnity when executed from behind. Combo bonus: Increased Accuracy
  
• Ageis Boon: Blocks the next incoming physical or magic attack and grants HP in proportion to damage taken.

---

That's one of the other problem with pld right there. One of its best dmg moves is never used cause it has a stupid requirement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Changes:

---

Shortened, sorry. Actually thought about this some.

Rampage, although I do agree it helps with the paladin movement, I doubt anyone would use this skill and keep their damage up. Seeing as it fades upon moving it will be impossible to get any combos off with it up if you want to keep it up by some chance. Will be totally useless on both sides. As a damage dealer you do not want to decrease your damage and again it fades upon moving.

Warmonger, why does this seem better than collusion? Reason is because collusion may place more enmity on the tank, it still adds hate to the tank. You can also have a better chance at surviving cc's crit 100 ton swing and you can pull more mobs off of people during princess and miser. This in term to me helps keep war tanks on top. Not behind.

Glad skills, agree on rage of halone, do not agree on reduced acc that it has. For Aegis, how long are cast and recast times? Seems its single target only. It also may seem better suited for outmaneuver.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zergasaur

Well it depends. War does more dmg in AE. Less on Single. But Even on single, War does a fairly descent amount. Not too far off from Mnk. Not to mention they have the best tanking ability atm.

---

Just based on eye-balling my damage as WAR vs. me as DRG against single targets, it seems like DRG blows WAR out of the water, especially if you get to combo freely, though admittedly this is a significant issue for DRG and their long WS chains and low damage combo builders. DRG just builds TP so much faster and, thanks to Power Surge, hits for the same numbers despite a lower damage and shorter delay weapon type. Also, MNK has an even higher single-target DPS than DRG.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nullie

What this guy said? You are what this guy said. You just quoted yourself there you know.

Derp.

---

I know who I am. I'm the dude playin' the dude, disguised as another dude!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Holyomen

I know who I am. I'm the dude playin' the dude, disguised as another dude!

---

Haha, like'd cause you made me laugh. c:

It seems Zantetsuken is pretty dead-set on wanting to nerf WAR which is indeed a horrible, horrible idea. Currently all classes are at about even power in their given role. The only class that is underwhelming compared to the rest is PLD. When only ONE class is underpowered what do you think the solution is? Buff the ONE class that is underpowered or nerf one of the classes that is already balanced? Use your brain.

The best logical solution would be to make it so PLD takes a noticable less amount of damage rendering the 2 WHM build not optimal due to a DPS being able to take the spot of one instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frein

Just based on eye-balling my damage as WAR vs. me as DRG against single targets, it seems like DRG blows WAR out of the water, especially if you get to combo freely, though admittedly this is a significant issue for DRG and their long WS chains and low damage combo builders. DRG just builds TP so much faster and, thanks to Power Surge, hits for the same numbers despite a lower damage and shorter delay weapon type. Also, MNK has an even higher single-target DPS than DRG.

---

The DD WARs in my LS give the DRGs and MNKs a run for their money. The WARs usually parse a bit under, but not far enough to make us ask them to switch jobs. And their defense/hp let them take top DPS if the fight goes south for any reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Changes:

---

Problem with Rampage is the effect wouldn't build up enough to really hinder WAR's DPS, because the effect resets when Steel Cyclone is used. If anything, Rampage's healing effect is the main reason for using it, kind of making most adjustments to the ability convoluted to begin with.

Warmonger really wouldn't change much either, it just means that DD's/BLM's would have to hold off a few seconds like they do for PLD's in order for WAR to get off a Enmity Combo.

Aegis Boon already does block Magical attacks, but due to shield mechanics it has to be from the front. Though I would welcome an all around magical block with it's active (Imagine blocking Hellfire).

I know I've been hooting and hollering about shield adjustments lately, but that's because I can see that as the best way to really make PLD shine above WAR if done right. Here are some of the ideas I proposed earlier on the PLD forums.

Quote:

---

Needed Change: Rework Damage mitigated formula by Blocks, and make it similar to Parry.

Reason: There is no reason why partial parries can negate NEARLY ALL damage but a block barely reduces anything. As it is, PLD cannot fully Block any attack, so if PLD isn't going to get the benefit of parrying with a shield equipped they should at least have the ability compete in damage negation in this area.

---

Quote:

---

Needed Change: Give Shields an inherent natural defensive stat.

Reason: There is almost NO DIFFERENCE between a PLD and WAR defensively. When PLD's focus is supposed to keep hate and reduce his overall ability to take damage, you'd naturally expect them to have much better defense.

---

Quote:

---

Needed Change: Introduce Magic Block to shields, and make it where it will ALWAYS reduce the damage received by that amount (without blocking just to be clear). Another alternative instead of magic damage taken would be to reduce the monsters magic attack potency by said amount in the damage calculation formula.

Reason: Even with the Block adjustment, it only allows PLD to compete with WAR's parry. Even with the defense boost, it's still not separating the jobs defensively enough to make PLD shine against WAR's hefty DPS. With this adjustment there would be a shining difference between the two jobs core capabilities and give PLD at least some competitive edge over the two.

---

It doesn't sound like much of an adjustment taking slightly less magical damage and making it where Shield Blocks could actually mitigate damage on par with Parry. But add in the existing abilities like Divine Veils 100% Block rate, you could take little to no physical damage for 33% of the fight that's a MAJOR step up in mitigation over WAR (Not to mention give your WHM's some breathing room to cure other players). The Magic Block and base defense on a shield would only help reduce overall damage taken, but not necessarily make the damage taken over WAR too drastic. Besides, it also means SE doesn't have to rework abilities or traits to incorporate new things like Global mitigation as some have suggested, and Shields have been terribly broken for a while so it would be fixing two issues in the process.

It still doesn't make GLA/PLD preferred on lesser mobs or allows it to excel in all situations, but it at least would be in line with the "Turtle Tank" concept SE made PLD out to be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Firon

That's one of the other problem with pld right there. One of its best dmg moves is never used cause it has a stupid requirement.

---

It is true they have to rethink some of these requirements. It is really dumb if a tanking class is fighting a large monster or boss that has high stun resist, and you have to get behind it without making it spin around to successfully execute a combo, and especially without putting the back line classes/jobs at risk at getting hit with aoe.

Even if PLD gets a defense buff, why would you still allow them in?

Warrior would still be the better tank because every 30 sec, it does some massive damage from Steel Cyclone let alone it can get full HP from that one move. And on top of that, it got like 3 tank abilities. I love Warrior, and it is not a bad DD.

Hmmm... Warrior AF does look a little leathery =P

Honestly, having warrior wear leather or hardened leather w/some light band mail screams pure ravage to me. If warrior used leather instead of plate, then plate would become paladin specific.

With this change some tweaks would be required with regard to rampage [for example, a sufficent defense bonus so would be required so that WAR would not be paper if tanking; Id leave the defense gain bonus on hit intact; Id add a higher parry chance while in this stance (maybe adjust the damage absorption rate from parry); However, Damage delt should be reduced slightly while in defensive stance]

With regard to Berserk, it appears to be functioning appropriatly; I cannot currently fathom any changes for it.

By ultilizing these changes, deciding which Warrior stance will become more vital and thus WAR gains a little more depth and becomes at least some challenge to play.

I'm perfectly ok with a minor warrior nerf and that's coming from a lifetime marauder. I think we should be AOE crowd control OR DD while a PLD can single target DD and tank single target.
Remove the War enmity combo and give the Pld a second enmity combo and buff their existing ones such as phalanx, blocking and possibly make wardrum extra effective when it's only executed on one target.

I hate to say this, but I would guess a warrior nerf is coming. I say this as a healer, my main is white mage. A key example of why I think so is from running strongholds. Like the wolf area in natalan, I have healed this with warriors and paladins camping this area. The warrior can pick up ALL the wolves and be fine. I just have to regen and stoneskin them and they are fine... with 10+ lvl 53+ wolves attacking them. Cures are rare if ever needed healing a warrior in a stronghold. Where the paladin is half dead on his way back getting the wolves or running past beastmen. When I run it with paladins, regen and stoneskin are not enough and cures are common.

The fact a warrior can nearly solo 10+ lvl 53+ with only a stoneskin and a regen is... a little too strong in my humble opinion. Paladins probably need a small buff as well.

Better be a PLD buff... because I refuse to use it as it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Even if PLD gets a defense buff, why would you still allow them in?

Warrior would still be the better tank because every 30 sec, it does some massive damage from Steel Cyclone let alone it can get full HP from that one move. And on top of that, it got like 3 tank abilities. I love Warrior, and it is not a bad DD.

---

Lol thats the problem war is too good a DD while tanking. No other DD can boast that. Unfortunately for PLD it can only tank. Its healing is so minute right now you still need a second whm. If its defenses and healing were increased you could swap the second whm for another DD. This new DD could make up for the loss of war dmg while switching to pld instead of war.

war is fine the way it is. having an optional tank is always a +. I like doing dmg and taking dmg, i hate playing pld who is only good as a meat shield. pld just needs a major buff is all.

Bottom line: WAR is awesome DPS when tanking and attacking multiple mobs, MNK is amazing when mob is weak against fist (and even when not) and DRG picks up the slack where the above 2 tend to fall behind. ALL DPS are balanced. PLD just needs a buff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Isaaru

Bottom line: WAR is awesome DPS when tanking and attacking multiple mobs, MNK is amazing when mob is weak against fist (and even when not) and DRG picks up the slack where the above 2 tend to fall behind. ALL DPS are balanced. PLD just needs a buff.

---

PLD is not supposed to be a DD.. changing it into one will heavy muddy WAR and PLD's roles in a PT -- This was the #1 complaint of the armory system -that the classes lacked distinction and uniqueness.

The problem is that WAR can work double-duty as a DD while it tanks in all scenarios as well as a PLD - that needs to change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klive

[...] The warrior can pick up ALL the wolves and be fine. I just have to regen and stoneskin them and they are fine... with 10+ lvl 53+ wolves attacking them. Cures are rare if ever needed healing a warrior in a stronghold. Where the paladin is half dead on his way back getting the wolves or running past beastmen. When I run it with paladins, regen and stoneskin are not enough and cures are common.

The fact a warrior can nearly solo 10+ lvl 53+ with only a stoneskin and a regen is... a little too strong in my humble opinion. Paladins probably need a small buff as well.

---

Oddly enough, I don't have a problem with this scenario.

I think WAR should be able to tank lots of 'even match' mobs effectively. I do have a problem with WAR tanking Ifrit better than a PLD. A WAR's tanking effectiveness needs to drop off rapidly the higher the mob is above their level.

A change to Parry would help. Parry should function like the 'Phalanx' spell did in FFXI. It should rapidly gain effectiveness the further the mob is below your level, and be virtually useless for mobs higher lvl than you. (**this is logical as parrying in RL is done when a defender has equal or higher skill than the attacker)

In addition, PLD should be able to effectively parry.

From the garuda video, looks like a minor hp boost so far.

For what it's worth, in the Garuda video the PLD has 3600+ HP if I'm not mistaken (though I could be) in full AF. That would certainly help things lol, it's what I've been suggesting for a while.

Though there's something fishy going on with these HP numbers. At one point the PLD has 3600ish and the WAR has 4200. Then after the cutscene mid-way the PLD has 4300ish and the WAR has 4600ish.

Still, the gap has narrowed in HP in either case. The difference is now not as severe as it used to be at 1k.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcell

For what it's worth, in the Garuda video the PLD has 3600+ HP if I'm not mistaken (though I could be) in full AF. That would certainly help things lol, it's what I've been suggesting for a while.

Though there's something fishy going on with these HP numbers. At one point the PLD has 3600ish and the WAR has 4200. Then after the cutscene mid-way the PLD has 4300ish and the WAR has 4600ish.

Still, the gap has narrowed in HP in either case. The difference is now not as severe as it used to be at 1k.

---

The HP boost is likely due to the BRD 15min ability: Battle Voice

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

The HP boost is likely due to the BRD 15min ability: Battle Voice

---

Ah, very true. Hadn't considered that. Well then it looks like unbuffed in full AF, the HP gap isn't as bad now. Paladin may very well be viable again thankfully.

War tanking damage isn't insane at all. It's subpar compared to the real damage dealers.

The way to fix PLD is to delete it and give those people 50 levels to spend on WAR.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcell

For what it's worth, in the Garuda video the PLD has 3600+ HP if I'm not mistaken (though I could be) in full AF. That would certainly help things lol, it's what I've been suggesting for a while.

Though there's something fishy going on with these HP numbers. At one point the PLD has 3600ish and the WAR has 4200. Then after the cutscene mid-way the PLD has 4300ish and the WAR has 4600ish.

Still, the gap has narrowed in HP in either case. The difference is now not as severe as it used to be at 1k.

---

3600 with full party bonus is what PLD has now... and is Garbage

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

War tanking damage isn't insane at all. It's subpar compared to the real damage dealers.

---

But it's way above par compared to PLD... and thats the issue

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rydin

3600 with full party bonus is what PLD has now... and is Garbage

---

It's better than what we had before. It's only about a 600 hp gap as opposed to a 1k hp gap. Plus with 2 types of regen and a handful of self-heals, it is at least a step in the right direction. Paladin will be more viable than it is now.

warrior should get a minor nerf and paladin shout get a minor buff and a complete overhaul on the AF gear alot of the nerf ppl see in paladin is single handedly due to the AF gear that they want to try and tank in put back on your sentinels gear or cobalt gear and its back to tanking just fine (on my bard i can pull hate off a warrior tank with ease find a good paladin tank and its a different story)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by knite23

warrior should get a minor nerf and paladin shout get a minor buff and a complete overhaul on the AF gear alot of the nerf ppl see in paladin is single handedly due to the AF gear that they want to try and tank in put back on your sentinels gear or cobalt gear and its back to tanking just fine (on my bard i can pull hate off a warrior tank with ease find a good paladin tank and its a different story)

---

Using my trusty decoder ring, I'll sift through this mumbo jumbo and try to respond:

Most of PLD AF is actually good and useful. Sentinel's/Cobalt isn't going to make a drastic difference in your DEF, HP or VIT unless you double meld+ and until you do, the MP restore on the body, the enhanced heals on the hands and the enhanced regen on the legs are some of your best assests. The crown is pretty good on it's own merits.