Months of harassment

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

Jesus christ this is awful. Genuinely sorry to anyone who's experiencing this, it seems like every available option is skirt-able.

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I seriously disagree, but they haven't even tried, so?

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

And locking them out of NN accomplishes what? They could still do the same thing outside of the Novice Network, doing that would only be bandaid at best.

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Yeah my concern with that, is that he will then spam that in main City States.

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Originally Posted by Corvus_V

I seriously disagree, but they haven't even tried, so?

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Well, an IP ban can be skirted around, and apparently so to can banning the payment methods used. Banning his main account means that if he can skirt around an IP ban and a payment method ban, he can just quick level a new account and continue to do what he's already been doing. While the options might be there, they all seem like bandaids to a much bigger problem at hand. The GMs really, really need to figure something out.

Like I said, this is such an awful situation.

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Originally Posted by Casanova_Valentine

Simply code specific words to create flags. Populate enough flags over a certain period of time and it warrants X punishment up and to including perma bans. Rendering it impossible to spam the way he is. Will it stop the words from being used as a single word? Yes, but it will prevent spamming of it.

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Such an approach risks creating problems if it flags certain words that aren't offensive but contain the offending word as part of them. I've seen more than a few flawed filters that flag posts/accounts for writing grapes because of a certain word within. In addition, the game boasts players from all over the world and so a word can be offensive in one language but perfectly innocent in another.

We already lost the ability to speak in Feast due to 'toxicity' and I'd rather not see innocent players inconvenienced because a tiny minority figure out a way to be a nuisance by exploiting some of the game's limitations in their favour.

Furthermore, even when a filter is in place anyone committed to trying to indulge in shock value will just find new, offensive terms that aren't blocked and/or just spell them slightly differently.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Such an approach risks creating problems if it flags certain words that aren't offensive but contain the offending word as part of them. I've seen more than a few flawed filters that flag posts/accounts for writing grapes because of a certain word within.

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Yep, the well known Scunthorpe Problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem


The only solutions become rate limits, or a GM noticing and sitting in NN on this datacentre for a while to put an end to the player, completely.

Today 8:46 PM @ Adamantoise

cw: racism homophobia

https://imgur.com/a/qDNqz9l

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Originally Posted by SerenityChiba

Yeah I'm not too sure what food item they are talking about, but nonetheless, it made me giggle too xD

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In the UK there is a food item called Faggots, it is a meat dumpling in gravy, the name for it is older than the slur is, so in the UK context is needed when using the word, so if you talk about buying faggots for dinner your ok, using it the way the individual this thread is about, would get you same looks over here as you would there.

I was leveling my alt on Midgardsormr for the first time in awhile and got to witness first hand a couple rounds of this nonsense. Its amazing to me that FF staff or SE hasn't stepped in more? While I understand that there's alts involved and throwaways on free trial...I feel like SOMETHING can be done? Like logs to see if its the same person[s] inviting the person[s] into NN. Anyway, it was bad enough I gave up and ran back to my home server. Primal gets a lot of flak for the raid scene...but at least we don't have this? :/

Today at 11:03 PM Central on Adamantoise

cw: Transphobia directed towards one of our mentors

https://imgur.com/a/kaWi3Ro

The guy has shown up on three different characters on Cactuar within the past hour now.

He also takes it personally if you manage to kick him before he can leave the server and direct insults at specific people when it happens.

This has gotten to a point where I think they need to start making NN in general invite only since it apparently shoves all new characters in there by default presently.

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

Well, an IP ban can be skirted around, and apparently so to can banning the payment methods used. Banning his main account means that if he can skirt around an IP ban and a payment method ban, he can just quick level a new account and continue to do what he's already been doing. While the options might be there, they all seem like bandaids to a much bigger problem at hand. The GMs really, really need to figure something out.

Like I said, this is such an awful situation.

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A deterrent is better than nothing. It matters much less if it's possible to work around it; and more so that it takes so obnoxiously long to enable it in the first place: i.e, becoming a mentor, or changing your IP over and over in addition to making new accounts, and getting a new payment method.

Time is just as limited a resource as money. The more efficiently we waste his time in his efforts to be annoying, the less likely he is to do so (or the more time we get spam-free). There's no reason they shouldn't focus on banning the mentor, permenantly, his IP, and his payment method; so he has to change all 3, level a new account and character, just to try again, and risk getting again permenantly banned, his character deleted, his payment method banned, and his IP banned. No? How is that not good enough? The only concern is "if its draconian" but honestly if anyone deserves no sympathy, its this guy.

12/22/2020 - 11:39 PM Central on Adamantoise

Language was popping up as Georgian or Marathi, and could not find any translations
so I don't know what it says if it is offensive.

https://imgur.com/a/DfreKYH

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Originally Posted by Corvus_V

A deterrant is better than nothing. It matters much less if it's possible to work around it; and more so that it takes so obnoxiously long to enable it in the first place: i.e, becoming a mentor, or changing your IP over and over in addition to making new accounts, and getting a new payment method.

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To be fair, thinking about it now, getting a new payment method is extremely easy. One can also just become a trade mentor, as from my understanding that simply requires two lvl 80 trade classes. And even if this werent the case, this guy seems determined enough to make people miserable, he quite literally seems to have nothing better to do.

A deterrant *is* better than nothing, but something needs to be done *other than* a deterrant, bc from what I've seen in just this thread alone, this guy seems absolutely determined to make people's lives miserable. IMO there has to be some form of legal backlash because I don't think a deterrant is going to make him back down.

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Originally Posted by Corvus_V

snip

Time is just as limited a resource as money. The more efficiently we waste his time in his efforts to be annoying, the less likely he is to do so (or the more time we get spam-free). There's no reason they shouldn't focus on banning the mentor, permenantly, his IP, and his payment method; so he has to change all 3, level a new account and character, just to try again, and risk getting again permenantly banned, his character deleted, his payment method banned, and his IP banned. No? How is that not good enough? The only concern is "if its draconian" but honestly if anyone deserves no sympathy, its this guy.

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Ah, simple misunderstanding. What you're describing isn't draconian at all, but because of the level of harassment faced by everyone on this thread, I personally think that there needs to be a level of legal repercussion. For people like this, simply banning them isn't going to work. For example, I once dealt with targeted harassment in which the person was permanently banned 40+ times, simply factory reset their phone, reset their router, and made a new account to target me yet again. It only ended when I served them with a restraining order that threatened with the very harsh reality that they could be put away in prison if they continued. And even then, I'm pretty sure they've probably made a new account ready to begin again once the time on the restraining order is over.

For people like this, there needs to be a concerted effort on the parts of the GMs to figure out a way to legally battle this. For people like you and me, simply the threat of banning would be enough (heck, we wouldnt even *do* this). But not for these types.

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

To be fair, thinking about it now, getting a new payment method is extremely easy. One can also just become a trade mentor, as from my understanding that simply requires two lvl 80 trade classes. And even if this werent the case, this guy seems determined enough to make people miserable, he quite literally seems to have nothing better to do.

A deterrant *is* better than nothing, but something needs to be done *other than* a deterrant, bc from what I've seen in just this thread alone, this guy seems absolutely determined to make people's lives miserable. IMO there has to be some form of legal backlash because I don't think a deterrant is going to make him back down.

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That's fair, and while I'd prefer they spared no expense, I'm just trying to think from a practical standpoint the minimum amount of effort they could put it in to stagger this sackbrain for a week or two. I doubt he'd be as persitent then, but even if he was at the very least NN would be situation normal for a while.

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Originally Posted by Corvus_V

If they just keep a log or show us who is inviting who, we can report the person who is inviting them in the first place. I do on the other hand doubt that an IP ban would be completely impossible. People get IP banned from websites all the time, and public proxies are typically so overused by bots that they're also banned as well. If he wants to go through the extra effort of getting a literal new credit card, or paypal, and IP address just for the sake of spamming, its much easier to ban him again, and his mentor account (which he uses to add them) than it is to replace that. He'd definitely be bashing his thick skull against something of much higher density.

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I would put this in spoiler tags as it's just an explanation of why I would know this, but I can't remember how to spoiler for the life of me.

IP banning is usually a last resort by games because certain places like college campuses or entire countries share the same IP address. For companies trying to make money, banning entire schools/countries/cities is a terrible move only done in extreme circumstances where the threat of the player continuing to play is possibly losing them more money than they would lose by blanket banning people. Websites on the other hand like forums and the such, don't stand to lose much by accidentally catching randos in the crossfire.

Without going into too much detail, I used to work for a huge online game that only had THREE people IP banned. The game had millions of players, almost a decade of history and only THREE people ever got extreme enough to warrant the IP ban.


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Straight up tho - just need a GM to sit in the NN and catch this guy every time and shut his accounts down. Remove the messages as they show up, if possible.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

The guy has shown up on three different characters on Cactuar within the past hour now.

He also takes it personally if you manage to kick him before he can leave the server and direct insults at specific people when it happens.

This has gotten to a point where I think they need to start making NN in general invite only since it apparently shoves all new characters in there by default presently.

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Someone is inviting him. Sprouts still need to be actively invited. Only returners (flowers) are auto-added.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

IP banning is usually a last resort by games because certain places like college campuses or entire countries share the same IP address.

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Most people - when talking about IP bans - actually mean MAC/SystemID bans.

As you say, CGNAT (and DHCP with short lease times for that matter) universally preclude a ban on IP address. MAC bans are trivially easy to bypass, of course, system ID is a little harder if done correctly, but still not impossible for people who know how to edit things like their Disk UUIDs. Financial bans also stop some people, moreso if pre-paid visa cards are disallowed - but even that doesn't stop everyone.

As with anything there isn't one particular technical method that will work in a foolproof manner.

Absolute joke how the forum mods here will outright ban our community members for coming forward about continued harassment and a whole host of worse offenses from this individual instead of removing posts or issuing warnings for first time offenses.

Floors me how people are getting forum bans for reporting reportable behavior as a huge reach for witch hunting over screenshots that weren't 100% properly blacked out. I doubt any of of them are even on Aether.

If the system was functioning as intended, none of us would be here trying to help corroborate the original reports and provide more information, especially since the in-game report system takes orders of magnitudes longer and we just get a brush off scripted reply from a GM anyway.

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Originally Posted by Wuffleton

Absolute joke how the forum mods here will outright ban our community members for coming forward about continued harassment and a whole host of worse offenses from this individual instead of removing posts or issuing warnings for first time offenses.

Floors me how people are getting forum bans for reporting reportable behavior as a huge reach for witch hunting over screenshots that weren't 100% properly blacked out. I doubt any of of them are even on Aether.

If the system was functioning as intended, none of us would be here trying to help corroborate the original reports and provide more information, especially since the in-game report system takes orders of magnitudes longer and we just get a brush off scripted reply from a GM anyway.

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Seriously, instead of banning people witnessing this, please tell us how we're supposed to get anything done about this. The dozens upon dozens of in-game reports aren't doing anything meaningful, and forum posts will need screenshots of evidence in order to contextualize just how AWFUL this harassment is. Multiple people from multiple servers in the DC have come forward in this thread about this situation. People are saying their gameplay is being ruined and are actively avoiding playing on the DC because of this guy. And who knows just how many sprouts see the wall of slurs and leave the channel, which may be their only avenue of getting help in the game. This spamming has been going on since at least the 15th, so can you imagine starting the game only to see a week straight of slurs spammed in the novice network? GMs say they're investigating but we're seeing no signs of that. There's no slowing down of the harassment at all. In fact, he's ramping up and even actively targeting players in retaliation.

This person is ramping up probably because of this gigantic deal you guys are making of it. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

This person is ramping up probably because of this gigantic deal you guys are making of it. :rolleyes:

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it SHOULD be a big deal. Spamming what they have been is absolutely disgusting and should'nt be tolerated by anyone. /shrug

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

This person is ramping up probably because of this gigantic deal you guys are making of it. :rolleyes:

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Ahh yes, let's just ignore the mentally ill person with a vendetta against the community who has been relentless in trolling us with awful language everyday for the past week.

Must be quite nice on Exaclibur where you don't have to deal with such issues.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

This person is ramping up probably because of this gigantic deal you guys are making of it. :rolleyes:

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Indeed. They are giving this person exactly what they want. They are crying for attention and getting it in droves. It could be blacklisted and ignored but that is to easy apparently.

Some of this ground was covered previously, but to clarify the tactics being used, the spammer is a mentor, or a mentor is a friend of the spammer. Additionally, the mentor could just be a legit mentor inviting sprouts blindly (although this is less likely). If the mentor inviting them is the spammer, they're creating sock puppet trial accounts to spam on. Effectively, what allows this to happen is that anyone can become a mentor if they meet the criteria, & the free trial system allows creation of an endless stream of socks whenever one gets banned. We've managed to kick a couple from NN, but in 30min that sock to comes back & we've seen at least 7 (by my count) socks rotate through on Mid.

So what can be done? These are the nuclear options:
None of us are going to support the idea of blocking anyone meeting the criteria becoming a mentor. It's flawed but allows some semblance of a connection between the mods/devs and the community in a way that allows the community to build & support themselves. Personally, I would argue that they should make the crown about role mastery and bring back FFXI's "M" marker because the crown culturally and in-game often symbolizes elitism (for better or worse). Similarly, nobody is going to support the idea of getting rid of the free trial system, as it gives players a great window into understanding the game both at a starter level & also to make an informed decision about whether the late game experience is something they would like to invest in.

The non-nuclear option is to ban the spammer. But that's not easy.

1. If the mentor inviting isn't the spammer, they haven't violated ToS unless you make a well-documented case that they're enabling harassment / obstruction of play. In a sense it requires a definition of 2nd degree obstruction
2. If the mentor inviting is the spammer, they would require evidence by tracking spam accounts and who is inviting them. However, we don't even know if the game records all of that information in a useful way mods can access other than connecting puzzle pieces one at a time & then reviewing the consummate
3. You still have the argument that the mentor inviting isn't the account doing the spam, and the language of ToS is based on individual accounts
4. Banning via IP isn't practical because having two IPs is as simple as connecting via both LAN & WiFi
5. It's not uncommon that the same person has multiple routers working from home because work pays for one or it's more cost effective for bandwidth in certain areas, obscuring connections further
6. Banning via MAC would require interaction with an ISP and possibly legal authorities to pressure the former, under the argument that the spammer is posting statements in support of pedophilia as racial slurs and transphobia (while completely appalling and inexcusable) are technically free speech in the US

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Indeed. They are giving this person exactly what they want. They are crying for attention and getting it in droves. It could be blacklisted and ignored but that is to easy apparently.

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people have been blacklisting. Then they create a new character and do the same thing within 30 minutes and its hard to ignore WALLS OF HATE SPEECH TEXT macroed to post 10 times in a row in all caps. nice try, bruh. >.>

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Originally Posted by SigynAesir

it SHOULD be a big deal. Spamming what they have been is absolutely disgusting and should'nt be tolerated by anyone. /shrug

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I mean, definitely report him and stuff. These shrines to him on the forums, however, do really only feed and gratify him.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Indeed. They are giving this person exactly what they want. They are crying for attention and getting it in droves. It could be blacklisted and ignored but that is to easy apparently.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

This person is ramping up probably because of this gigantic deal you guys are making of it. :rolleyes:

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So, neither of you seem to understand why ignoring or blacklisting cannot or does not work in this situation.

1. The main of this character has changed their name a few times, but is NOT the one specifically doing the spamming. So blacklisting them will not assist in this situation.

2. The person in question creates new accounts/characters and gets into the NN, either through their main inviting them (if they are on separate accounts) or through another person inviting them in the NN.

3. Said new character then creates either a macro or uses a bot of some kind to spam what they wish. Due to how quick and repetitive is said, I would go with a macro.

4. One of 2 things now happen. a. They switch worlds right after and do the same on another world, or b. they drop NN, delete the character and make another one, going back to step 2.

So blacklisting will not help. What will help, is taking a scalpel to the cancerous tumor and removing it.

Now, the way SE has it, Free Accounts as well as Paid Accounts can join the NN. So this person can make tons of throwaway accounts and join the NN to continue wherever and whenever they want. So unless SE makes it so F2P accounts cannot use NN and forces people to have a paid acct to use it, this will more likely continue.

So for you two I quoted, do you believe blacklisting them and ignoring this will help? When the person is blatantly breaking the ToS? Should their actions have zero consequences? If so, please tell me what world you live in.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

3. Said new character then creates either a macro or uses a bot of some kind to spam what they wish. Due to how quick and repetitive is said, I would go with a macro.

4. One of 2 things now happen. a. They switch worlds right after and do the same on another world, or b. they drop NN, delete the character and make another one, going back to step 2.

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What I've witnessed is them hitting the macro and leaving NN. I assume they have the "confirm leave" window open so they just hit the macro and one click out. They haven't always logged off, but have most times. I haven't blacklisted the accounts because I lose my ability to track and document the offenses. Similarly haven't messaged after because that would definitely spur them to ramp it up.

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Originally Posted by Maria1693939

Ahh yes, let's just ignore the mentally ill person with a vendetta against the community who has been relentless in trolling us with awful language everyday for the past week.

Must be quite nice on Exaclibur where you don't have to deal with such issues.

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let's not blame this on mental illness when there's no evidence that has anything to do with it and just throws perfectly nice mentally ill people under the bus. he's probably just a complete loser who never grew past thinking /b/ was cool

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Originally Posted by SnowVix

let's not blame this on mental illness when there's no evidence that has anything to do with it and just throws perfectly nice mentally ill people under the bus. he's probably just a complete loser who never grew past thinking /b/ was cool

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Yeaheahea, no. Having a mental illness, in a great many cases, is an inherently negative thing for the person in question. Many learn to live with it, but they still often cause problems when interacting with the people around them, which isn't (always) the person in question's fault. The point is- when a person like this, who has hampered communication skills, didn't get the proper treatment early on, they turn into "that loser who never grew past thinking /b/ was cool".

Just because he's a vile person doesn't mean you should dismiss their mental illness if they have one. That just makes his behaviour spiral further out of control rather than looking to actually finding a solution so they can start acting like a reasonable human being.

The only reason I brought up the mental illness thing was because this would be the dumb things I would do when mine own mental illness was out of control. But it's besides the point, I shouldn't have brought it up, and I'm sorry for doing so - let's look for a solution to this issue.

As mentioned earlier, blacklisting doesn't help when they create a new character ten minutes later.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

Yeaheahea, no. Having a mental illness, in a great many cases, is an inherently negative thing for the person in question. Many learn to live with it, but they still often cause problems when interacting with the people around them, which isn't (always) the person in question's fault. The point is- when a person like this, who has hampered communication skills, didn't get the proper treatment early on, they turn into "that loser who never grew past thinking /b/ was cool".

Just because he's a vile person doesn't mean you should dismiss their mental illness if they have one. That just makes his behaviour spiral further out of control rather than looking to actually finding a solution so they can start acting like a reasonable human being.

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my point was more "let's not assume he's mentally ill without any evidence when it's just as likely he's just a completely vile human being completely of his own volition"

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Originally Posted by SigynAesir

it SHOULD be a big deal. Spamming what they have been is absolutely disgusting and should'nt be tolerated by anyone. /shrug

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That stuff is just playground spam, people used to spam that in chat like 10 years ago. It's really not as big a deal as some of you seem to make it out to be. For that matter, the spam is tailored specifically for you all's reactions, the reactions shown in this popular forum thread. Think it's a coincidence that this person has ramped up after this thread was created (which will get nothing done, by the way)? I bet this person enjoys all these amateur investigators that are after them. Giving them a good laugh, I bet.

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Originally Posted by Maria1693939

Ahh yes, let's just ignore the mentally ill person with a vendetta against the community who has been relentless in trolling us with awful language everyday for the past week.

Must be quite nice on Exaclibur where you don't have to deal with such issues.

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I have no clue how the NN on my server is, I haven't been a mentor for like 2 years. Plus, I don't even interact with anybody on my server (I play this game solo, don't even have an FC). But I digress.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

So for you two I quoted, do you believe blacklisting them and ignoring this will help? When the person is blatantly breaking the ToS? Should their actions have zero consequences? If so, please tell me what world you live in.

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No, report (quietly) and move on. Ignoring them is the best option available. Use that famed mentor kick power or whatever.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

That stuff is just playground spam, people used to spam that in chat like 10 years ago. It's really not as big a deal as some of you seem to make it out to be. For that matter, the spam is tailored specifically for you all's reactions, the reactions shown in this popular forum thread. Think it's a coincidence that this person has ramped up after this thread was created (which will get nothing done, by the way)? I bet this person enjoys all these amateur investigators that are after them. Giving them a good laugh, I bet.

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You are entire, absolutely, 100% factually correct and that is exactly the problem.

You might not care, but you are not everyone. Clearly this man has gotten on the nerves of a great many people, and just saying "ignore it" and "this isn't something new" doesn't help the situation any.

God forbid we want people to actually communicate with each-other in full sentences not designed to get a reaction out of them. Why, it's almost like we're advocating for... basic human decency, or something?

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

That stuff is just playground spam, people used to spam that in chat like 10 years ago. It's really not as big a deal as some of you seem to make it out to be. For that matter, the spam is tailored specifically for you all's reactions, the reactions shown in this popular forum thread. Think it's a coincidence that this person has ramped up after this thread was created (which will get nothing done, by the way)? I bet this person enjoys all these amateur investigators that are after them. Giving them a good laugh, I bet.

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keep defending someone doing the video game equivalent of screaming slurs in an auditorium, i'm sure that's somehow a really good look in your eyes, but it just means that you wish you could say the same without repercussions in my eyes

When did I ever defend them? I've said multiple times, or at least alluded to, that it is not okay.

Ironically, a lot of you seem to be the ones actually getting banned, in this forum thread. By the way.

Also, I just have to add, yeah let's just exclude ALL new free trial players from the Novice Network - a chat designed specifically to assist new players - because of one dude! Someone you can't just ignore. Great idea. :rolleyes:

By the way, because of this thread, it might actually encourage OTHERS to join in on this behavior. Great job everyone!

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

This person is ramping up probably because of this gigantic deal you guys are making of it. :rolleyes:

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At least for Adamantoise, we've tried the whole ignoring him thing as best as we reasonably can, but it's increasingly difficult when not everyone can be online all the time so while most mentors know of it and know to be on the lookout and kick without saying a word, there's ALWAYS a sprout that chimes in with the classic "Who was that? Is this game seriously gonna be that toxic? :(" And of course someone has to jump in and explain, and then it just turns into a neverending cycle.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

When did I ever defend them? I've said multiple times, or at least alluded to, that it is not okay.

Ironically, a lot of you seem to be the ones actually getting banned, in this forum thread. By the way.

Also, I just have to add, yeah let's just exclude ALL new free trial players from the Novice Network - a chat designed specifically to assist new players - because of one dude! Someone you can't just ignore. Great idea. :rolleyes:

By the way, because of this thread, it might actually encourage OTHERS to join in on this behavior. Great job everyone!

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Make an alt on Aether. Get invited to Novice Network. Make NN your main tab. You try to ignore it, blacklist it, whatever and however, and see how long you last with this attack. It's easier to be a commenter when this doesn't affect *your* community.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

When did I ever defend them? I've said multiple times, or at least alluded to, that it is not okay.

Ironically, a lot of you seem to be the ones actually getting banned, in this forum thread. By the way.

Also, I just have to add, yeah let's just exclude ALL new free trial players from the Novice Network - a chat designed specifically to assist new players - because of one dude! Someone you can't just ignore. Great idea. :rolleyes:

By the way, because of this thread, it might actually encourage OTHERS to join in on this behavior. Great job everyone!

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Honestly I doubt many of the mentors on this thread care about being banned from the ever so vaunted FF forums, given how this is most of our only posts here. The only reason this thread exists in the first place is to bring attention to the fact that we've been having this problem for a while now and how slow the Aether GM response has been in the hopes that maybe this gets sent to someone higher up. I'm also pretty sure it's not gonna encourage new trolls given the extreme lengths it takes to setup that many alts. But apparently we should just ignore the guy spamming racial slurs constantly since that's the new player introduction that the sprouts deserve right?