Frustrating relative lack of LGBT NPCs in this game

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Originally Posted by KayRadley

Hrothgar have a queen and Viera men are mentioned explicitly. It's just that Hrothgar have very few women and Viera practice strict segregation of the sexes.

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IIRC, the Viera segregation of sexes has indeed been mentioned in FFXII.

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Originally Posted by AkaeiNox

TitanMen's wellspring of trolls ran dry it seems.
Your earlier ones were more funny, you've really lost your touch. :l

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Idk.
This thread is pretty funny because apparently gay dudes are better actors than straight dudes.
Can't wait to see more scientific studies.

Am I the only one who caught all the sexual references and innuendos and personalities in this game? You can't be serious if you think NPC's or story characters are all straight. And what relevance does it have to the story and gameplay? None. It doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

If you ask me that's the kind of representation you want though. Because, while representation is nice, actively championing a "representative" makes it seem like an exception and not the norm. In cases like the ones I mentioned they are treating it like any other common relationship, not making it a grandiose spectical to appease the masses. I mean there is clearly a distinction between relationships such as Beatin and Gairhard, Sanson and Guydelot, Aymeric and Lucia, and Y'shtola and Runar, compared to ships like Cid and Nero, or Alphinaud and Estinien. If you ask me queer coding is the proper way to show representation. Cause why are all NPCs considered "straight" until proven otherwise. Why can't they be LGBT until proven otherwise?

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Explicitly mentioning a character's queerness is not a "grandiose spectical [sic] to appease the masses." That statement verges on being homophobic. By contrast, queer coding is what actually exists specifically for the purpose of appeasing the masses; it is used to appease a minority audience while simultaneously not rocking the boat of a majority audience. When "that's the kind of representation you want" is said about queer coding what is really being said is "that's the kind of representation that makes the majority feel more comfortable so you should want it too."

To answer your question, "Why can't they be LGBT until proven otherwise?" While queer coding like that is not inherently negative on its own, when it is the only thing being offered and deviating from it is termed a grandiose spectacle then it is a problem.

These videos are very film-centric discussions of queer coding both its negative and positive aspects, but the ideas apply to all fictional media and are both generally pretty good analyses of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsO4...ellgren-Fozard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riKV...nel=RowanEllis

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Idk.
This thread is pretty funny because apparently gay dudes are better actors than straight dudes.
Can't wait to see more scientific studies.

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Yeah that post was just wild. All credibility on the subject just went right out the window.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

To be fair, that may indirectly imply Viera are generally ok with playing around with the same sex, much like Amazons. Either that or the females give the 'death by snu snu' treatment to the few males that visit during mating season.

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It may well be the case that Viera women have romantic relationships with one another and only have sex with men for the purpose of bearing children, not unlike how men of ancient Rome had relationships with men in addition to their wives.

Of course, this isn't explicitly stated in the lore, but there's enough wiggle room in the lore to make this a valid headcanon.

One thing: FFXIV is a game from Japan and there a public demonstration of affection is not the norm, that's something you do in private. This rule applies to every sexual preference.

I'm not honestly sure if I can recall any memorable partnerships in the storyline of FFXIV - regardless of the genders involved. Partnerships is portrayed as simply ancillary information mentioned in passing. There have been a few of the same gender but there are as unremarkable as the rest have been. I'm all for portraying any NPC partnership in a more involved way as long as it makes sense from the storyline and is not done simply for a means to an end.

However, FFXIV is not a dating app :)

Agree with OP, but doubt it will happen. There aren't really any serious relationships anywhere in the game.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

Explicitly mentioning a character's queerness is not a "grandiose spectical [sic] to appease the masses." That statement verges on being homophobic. By contrast, queer coding is what actually exists specifically for the purpose of appeasing the masses; it is used to appease a minority audience while simultaneously not rocking the boat of a majority audience. When "that's the kind of representation you want" is said about queer coding what is really being said is "that's the kind of representation that makes the majority feel more comfortable so you should want it too."

To answer your question, "Why can't they be LGBT until proven otherwise?" While queer coding like that is not inherently negative on its own, when it is the only thing being offered and deviating from it is termed a grandiose spectacle then it is a problem.

These videos are very film-centric discussions of queer coding both its negative and positive aspects, but the ideas apply to all fictional media and are both generally pretty good analyses of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsO4...ellgren-Fozard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riKV...nel=RowanEllis

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I'll start by saying I haven't watched those videos, yet.

That being said, stating that my statement verges on "homophobic" is severely misrepresenting the meaning. By grandiose statement I was talking about a biased representation, where you state a character is LGBT because they act a certain way. Like if a male character acted very flamboyant, but wasn't evil, cause apparently that's a thing, but most people would presume that character is gay based on stereotyping, which is a bad thing to do. How someone acts doesn't necessitate their sexuality. Having characters show signs of LGBT is fine because real life is on a spectrum. Someone could be homosexual but then enter into a heterosexual relationship and vice versa.

A good example of what I mean can be found in the anime Yuri on Ice. None of the characters have any perceived sexual preferences, and even early on the main character is considered heterosexual. But as I'm sure most people are aware he enters into a relationship with a man. That's why the anime was praised for it's realistic expression of LGBT individuals. They weren't just a stereotype played up to explicitly make people aware "hey look at me I'm LGBT". Even the one character in that anime who could be considered a stereotype is a subversion, or maybe a double subversion, because it's not part of his sexual preference but his personality as a skater.

Another good example is from the new She-ra reboot. The showrunners actively said they weren't sure if they would be able to portray the relationship they wanted for Adora and Catra, so they added in subtleties that could go either way. Hints at a possible future relationship or just a very deep friendship. This way they could have the characters just be themselves, and not anything that needed to be "altered" later on.

One good example, "turned" bad, can be found in the new Voltron. Shiro is gay, he was written that way from the start. And people were "okay" with that. What they weren't okay with was when things were "added" and then glossed over to show he was gay. Specifically the ending were he gets married to someone we never even see him interact with, that we as the viewer know, because other characters do interact with him. Those moments were superficial, just to show "yes he really is gay". Given the context of the show, the viewers didn't care about him being in a relationship. What they did care about was the promise of showing these relationships and not delivering.

So do you see what I'm trying to get at? Representation is good, no question about that. But it has to be realistic, it can't just be there because people "want it". People shouldn't see themselves in fictional characters because their sexualities align, but because of their personalities.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

So do you see what I'm trying to get at? Representation is good, no question about that. But it has to be realistic, it can't just be there because people "want it". People shouldn't see themselves in fictional characters because their sexualities align, but because of their personalities.

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What you're trying to express here is what is known as tokenism. The thing is, however, characters can be LGBT without needing to be fleshed out or have good stories. An LGBT character's existence does not need to be contingent upon additional criteria to be considered worthy of explicit inclusion. That's different than tokenism which has more to do with the intent behind the inclusion. In fact, inclusion of people throughout a game world regardless of how fleshed out they are would work to avoid tokenism rather than being a form of it.

I'm no longer purchasing anything released or produced by Bethesda for unrelated reasons, but I will say that they did this thing correctly in Elder Scrolls Online. That game has lots NPCs whose LGBT status is made explicit and most of them aren't fleshed out in any real away at all although there are several that are

One other thimg, people absolutely should be able to see themselves in fictional characters just because their sexualities align. The parallel to this is that people shouldn't be expected to just be fine with only ever having characters that have differing sexualities than theirs. Sexuality isn't just some clinical trait that people have, it's just as much a part of their identity as their personality is and perfectly worthy of identifying with just on that basis alone.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

One thing: FFXIV is a game from Japan and there a public demonstration of affection is not the norm, that's something you do in private. This rule applies to every sexual preference.

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There's also the fact that, when it comes to rights for and treatment of LGBT+ people, Japan is, in many ways, worse than the West. Gay couples cannot adopt, lesbians cannot undergo in-vitro fertilization, and sexual orientation and noncis gender identities are not legally protected. No amount of yaoi or yuri manga and anime can hide the fact that Japan has a lot of catching up to do when it comes to this matter.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

What you're trying to express here is what is known as tokenism. The thing is, however, characters can be LGBT without needing to be fleshed out or have good stories. An LGBT character's existence does not need to be contingent upon additional criteria to be considered worthy of explicit inclusion. That's different than tokenism which has more to do with the intent behind the inclusion. In fact, inclusion of people throughout a game world regardless of how fleshed out they are would work to avoid tokenism rather than being a form of it.

I'm no longer purchasing anything released or produced by Bethesda for unrelated reasons, but I will say that they did this thing correctly in Elder Scrolls Online. That game has lots NPCs whose LGBT status is made explicit and most of them aren't fleshed out in any real away at all although there are several that are

One other thimg, people absolutely should be able to see themselves in fictional characters just because their sexualities align. The parallel to this is that people shouldn't be expected to just be fine with only ever having characters that have differing sexualities than theirs. Sexuality isn't just some clinical trait that people have, it's just as much a part of their identity as their personality is and perfectly worthy of identifying with just on that basis alone.

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I can't tell whether or not you understand what I'm saying. Your mentioning of tokenism does align with what I'm trying to say, but it's almost sounding like you think I'm for it, which I'm not. But I could be misinterpreting what you said.

That being said, that goes back to my original expression of why are all characters considered heterosexual until proven otherwise, unless they "act" a certain way. In real life you can't tell a person's sexual orientation just by looks alone, so why should a fictional world be any different.

Also, I'm not denying that someone's sexual orientation is important to their identity. But that shouldn't be the main reason you like a fictional character. Just like I how girls shouldn't like female characters just because they are girls. It's similar to getting into a relationship; looks are important, but if that's all you're focused on you're gonna be disappointed later on.

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Originally Posted by MilitaryVet123

FF14 is a wonderful game. It's beautiful, the gameplay is fluid, the lore rich, and the graphics stunning, especially in the Azim Steppe.

Part of the reason why it's so wonderful is because it is possible to fully immerse yourself in this game. Characters all have a backstory, many NPCs are fleshed out, have their own personality, and you really feel like Eorzea is a place you can live in.

However, the lack of representation of LGBT characters in this game is frustrating for a billion-dollar video gaming company. While I applaud SE for allowing the Eternal Bonding to take place between two people of the same gender, there is not much else in this game that represents LGBT characters, other than a token gay couple in Upper La Noscea.

Some people will also bring up characters like Alphinaud (weird) or Haurchefant, and say they're "WOL-sexual". But you know that they're not actually designed as gay characters. They just happened to be perceived as LGBT because of the fandom.

Many other RPGs are already fully embracing the need to represent minorities in their game, because minority representation is an important issue that affects the psychological development of minority youth.

I hope to see Square Enix do more to represent LGBT characters in their game, because by doing so they'll let LGBT youth feel like they have a place in Eorzea and feel welcomed.

I know some people will think I'm joking, but I'm not. As a LGBT PoC myself, I am deeply invested in this issue.

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no thanks .

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Originally Posted by OniKimoto

Am I the only one who caught all the sexual references and innuendos and personalities in this game? You can't be serious if you think NPC's or story characters are all straight. And what relevance does it have to the story and gameplay? None. It doesn't matter.

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If it "doesn't matter" then there's no need to make a fuss or reject the idea of more inclusion and representation, right? It's not going to harm anyone.

Given the number of gender-less pixies, hermaphrodite dragons, inter-species and gay background relationships in this game I am not sure what more people want? Romantic relationships play little to no role in this story, and most major characters are WoL-sexual to accommodate the WoLs gender.

In my book they are doing a swell job and more representation just for representations sake would just come across as pandering. They should write how they want and what they know for the sake of preserved quality.

I wished more people realized this is an elaborate troll thread meant to get people riled up.

Congrats on being a troll and making gay people look crazy.

As a gay guy, representation is nice when done right but a lack of it doesn't make me lose sleep. To be honest, most of us just wanna be able to enjoy the game in peace.

Well I did call OP out on the third page...

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Oh wow. This thread title is word for word the same as a Reddit title back in 2017 with some paragraphs literally taken from it.



Wow, even this was taken from that thread.

In agreement with Doozer as well.

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Again, third page.

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Originally Posted by MPK

Edit: Emet Selch was probably 101% gay.

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Im sorry to dissapoint but he was straight. At some point he stated that he sired Children. Not quite possible with two males.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

Im sorry to dissapoint but he was straight. At some point he stated that he sired Children. Not quite possible with two males.

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And I have two sons in their mid-to-late twenties. So?

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Originally Posted by Araxes

Im sorry to dissapoint but he was straight. At some point he stated that he sired Children. Not quite possible with two males.

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I think you should pay closer attention to him, he lived as other Mortals did, implying he's been various other people over the years, some could have been straight, some could have been gay, some could have even been women.

As to the current body he uses, the Garlean 'Solus zos Galvus' body that he seems so fond of he recreated it on the first. His sexuality is never confirmed, the actors who voiced him played him gay, the body mannerisms and little quirks of behavior were very much played gay, but he did father at least one son as Solus zos Galvus. However, this doesn't imply he was straight either; gay men since the dawn of time have fathered children, and Bisexuality is a legit orientation.

The character was played gay, or as we in the LGBT call it "Coded Queer", but he never explicitly states his orientation, in fact, there are a lot of coded queer characters in this game. None of which outright state their orientation. However, there are out hetero couples throughout the game. If they would just have one or two of the coded queer characters come out it would be a nice touch.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Oh wow. This thread title is word for word the same as a Reddit title back in 2017 with some paragraphs literally taken from it.



Wow, even this was taken from that thread.

In agreement with Doozer as well.

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And this alone pretty much proves this is nothing more than a troll thread.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

And this alone pretty much proves this is nothing more than a troll thread.

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it proves the OP is a well-known troll on these forums, however, the subject is a valid one, so you are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

The character was played gay, or as we in the LGBT call it "Coded Queer".

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I honestly have no idea how you inferred this about Emet. When I played the game, I could only use 1 word to describe him: eccentric. This trait isn't exclusive to any side. I don't see any point in making him gay or even caring about his sexuality at all since it literally has 0 relevance or importance to the plot. Again, can we please just look at the game for what it actually is and is about (which is certainly not sexuality)? Let's stop looking too deeply into irrelevant stuff and trying to shoehorn other things into the game.

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Originally Posted by Eien713

I honestly have no idea how you inferred this about Emet. When I played the game, I could only use 1 word to describe him: eccentric. This trait isn't exclusive to any side. I don't see any point in making him gay or even caring about his sexuality at all since it literally has 0 relevance or importance to the plot. Again, can we please just look at the game for what it actually is and is about (which is certainly not sexuality)? Let's stop looking too deeply into irrelevant stuff and trying to shoehorn other things into the game.

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Are you even familiar with what "Queer Coded" characters are? Are you LGBTQ+? If not then, of course, you don't see it.

Queer Coded characters are used for two purposes, the first one mostly used with villainous characters implying that Queer people are evil. Hollywood has done that for years, the second use is to hide gay characters in plain sight where gay people will recognize that the characters are gay, but the general audience is unaware.

Example of two very intentional Queer coded characters.

Queer is Evil: Disney's Hades
https://i.imgur.com/0hmrV9r.jpg

Gay Hero (the actor didn't even know it): 1959 Ben Hur
https://i.imgur.com/gIRo02n.jpg

A character or person having eccentric or exaggerated mannerisms doesn't necessarily mean that they're gay, though. It strikes me as a bit of a harmful stereotype to assume that characters are gay just because they act that way.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

And I have two sons in their mid-to-late twenties. So?

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"Sired" usually implies the "Act" of "Making" them. Two Men cannot "create" Children of their own. Just choosing my words carefully here to not get a ban or anything.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

"Sired" usually implies the "Act" of "Making" them. Two Men cannot "create" Children of their own. Just choosing my words carefully here to not get a ban or anything.

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Just because someone is a gay man, doesn't mean they can't have sex with a woman for the purpose of making kids. I'm a transgender female, only attracted to men, in the 90's I was married to a woman, and we did things married couples do. The fathering of children is not the sole determination of heterosexual cisgender.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

A character or person having eccentric or exaggerated mannerisms doesn't necessarily mean that they're gay, though. It strikes me as a bit of a harmful stereotype to assume that characters are gay just because they act that way.

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You need to read up on Queer Coding.

https://youtu.be/GsO4fZYHQic

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

Example of two very intentional Queer coded characters.

Queer is Evil: Disney's Hades
https://i.imgur.com/0hmrV9r.jpg

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James Woods in interviews said he on a whim, decided to act as a used car salesman for Hades in the audition. They animated the character entirely around James Woods' interpretation of the character. I've never heard of the used car salesman archetype being coded as queer.

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Originally Posted by Razard

Well I am gay and "Queer Coding" sounds like a perpetuation of harmful streotypes to force a headcannon to which the character is gay in your mind.

Flamboyant =/= gay.

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"Queer Coding" does perpetuate stereotypes, just like "queerbaiting", "bury your gay's", and other tropes use in entertainment. It doesn't change that the dev team made a villain who was very clearly coded queer, who by the end gets killed. This isn't a case of headcanon, this is a case of typical queer coding, with a bit of queerbaiting, and bury your gays. What is Emet-Selch's sexuality, unknown, but he's coded queer, and then killed.

If you want to avoid stereotypes in entertainment than the use of flamboyant characters needs to stop until the stereotype goes away, as it is, they queer code a lot of side characters, and place them in stereotypical gay employment, and even if you follow the post moogle storyline, shirk their family duties for sake of their stereotypical gay employment.

But not just entertainment, we ourselves need to stop living the stereotypes, because we as a community have the habit of living up to the sterotype. Just go to any hair salon, ask the guys "are you gay?", guess what most will say? Why do we follow these trends? Why do we live up to the Hollywood designed stereotypes?

Uggg I could rant and rave about that for hours.

So before you say "harmful stereotypes" look in a mirror and ask your self, "what am I doing to avoid them?"

Me, I worked as a Motorcycle mechanic before coming out trans, I listen to deathrock, metal, gothic, and industrial. I've made it a point to never act queer in public, and even now after coming out and transitioning female, I still live my life for myself without following stereotypes.

Every time I go to West Hollywood (I live close), I'm amazed how much we as a community live up to the stereotypes. I tend to get eyerollitus* after getting Starbucks in West Hollywood because of it.





*eyerollitus -made up condition where you eyeroll so much it hurts your eyes.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Are we going to have to call out Merlin for being flaming too? Is he a villian?

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Only Disney's 1963 "Sword in the Stone" Merlin isn't coded queer. If you pay attention he's done with a few tropes, but not coded queer for his era. Today, yah his style would seem that way, but he's done as the kindly grandfather, he has a lot of masculine pursuits, to include having a few very hetero moments. He's eccentric without going queer.

maybe, just maybe, emet is straight-coded. he may look like gay to some people but for most straight people he just looks straight.
Most characters in this game dont show an explicit proof for their sexuality. So if you want to see straight people then they look straight for you. if you want to see gay people then alphinaud (or other characters) may look gay to you.
And if you want to see stereotypical gay people or people who are yelling in our face that they are gay to feel represented (because otherwise it would be too subtle to recognize) then you may only see straight people because most characters are neither straight nor gay (because its not shown)

i mean how should it be? should the numbers be like in our world? then we should applie a rule that any character without explicit proof is straight so that we can have a natural ratio between straight/gay. Or do you want to be overrepresented to the point that every second character is LGBTQ+? We cant count 'neutral' characters as straight nor gay. so we need a LOT of additional characters that represent every possible sexuality. After that we have gender and skincolour. Hmm.... but.... gender is a spectrum isnt it? Or thats what i heard. So we need a lot of characters for all the different people in that spectrum. And every sexuality needs someone in every colour.

I'm sorry it feels as if a bit of my comment isnt completely appropriate. but its somehow difficult for me to messure that whole thing because i dont understand why people care so much about such things in a computer game. On one side i couldnt care less what sexuality someone has (real Person or character in a game) because it doesnt affect me. Everyone should be what he wants to be and in a game it just should be a good story/character/romance/friendship whatever. On the other side.... all these minorities inside minorities (i firmly believe these loud people are just a small part of their 'faction') who are crying out loud to (what it feels like) making themselves more important becames more and more annoying.

All of you are falling for this blatant Titanmen troll post.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

Are you even familiar with what "Queer Coded" characters are? Are you LGBTQ+? If not then, of course, you don't see it.

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Gosh, you sound so high and mighty in every post you make. Yes, I'm familiar with "Queer Coded" characters, and yes, I know what queerbaiting is too. Straight people aren't ignorant, y' know. If you ask me, you totally sound like a bitter and salty person who's not satisfied with their own situation and is taking it out on the world. You make a huge deal out of sexuality and you see and read too much into everything.

The fact that you people are discussing straight or whatever coding in a videogame about time travelling robots and dragons from outer space is very bizarre to me. lol

Pretty sure OP hasn't played against the "last boss" of 5.3 yet. Woman body, male voice. Nuff said ;P

gw2 has a canon lesbian couple they even kissed in a cutscene and they are very open about it. I know ffxiv may can't have open lgbtq as much because they want there game worldwide. and sadly there are still certain countries were that is illegal. (china,Russia) I hope one day that won't be so much of an issue

This is a fantasy game. If the fantasy doesn't match your particular fetish, perhaps look elsewhere.

This person is a known troll for posting baiting threads and titles. You guys fell into their trap (Like I have by posting here, but I'm just warning you guys).

Perhaps it's best to just let a mod lock/delete this thread.