6.0 Both Tank and Healers Need Major Focus on Bringing Back Job Identity

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

shadowflare is removed even from summoner aka removed from the game

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"Well summoner lost it as well" doesn't really justify the removal in the first place and unlike SCH, SMN actually gained some new aoe.

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

He got critical increase for the party, to compansate for that dots bane aoe dps he had. IF you add potencies of dots they result to art of war,

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He did not, Chain Stratagem isn't a thing that came with ShB and that's like comparing apples and oranges anyway, especially since CS only works on one enemy.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that your dot spread with Bane indeed adds up to the potency of Art of War spam, that stil leaves Miasma 2 and Shadowflare as aoe potency SCH lost but gained nothing for in return.

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

You got your answer above. Schs got nothing in return. Too dramatic. And obviously a lie. I dunno why its tiring when someone express their opinion, maybe cause its different ? Maybe you are upset that your whining doesnt affect all community ? Healer were always simple in their dps skills even when we had cleric stance that was harder to deal with. Crying to the forums that the dps is boring cause u are pressing 3 buttons instead of 5 is stupid in my opinion. If you want more complex dps skills pick a dps. Not once in a million SE will add more dps tools to healers. You cry all day here . Peace

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And you haven't made a single good argument in every single post I have seen from you so far on this topic, "it's fine because that's the way SE made it" is rather weak. Everything you say can be summed up as "healer fine". Sure healer dpsing was never complex but it certainly had more to it than spamming the same button over and over again for 7-8 minutes out of a 13 minute fight.



If you enjoy mindlessly spamming a single button all the time that's great, many people do not and adding more complexity back into healers certainly wouldn't stop anyone from continuing to spam that 1 button, you just wouldn't perform as well as healers who want to put in a bit more effort.

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

and instead of lame 3% at. Speed or was is 2%? He got critical increase for the party,

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SCH had both Chain Stratagem and Fey Wind in Stormblood. We didn't get a crit buff for the party but simply lost our haste buff, you either don't know what you're talking about or are willfully using false information to support your claim. Peace

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

And you haven't made a single good argument in every single post I have seen from you so far on this topic, "it's fine because that's the way SE made it" is rather weak. Everything you say can be summed up as "healer fine". Sure healer dpsing was never complex but it certainly had more to it than spamming the same button over and over again for 7-8 minutes out of a 13 minute fight.



If you enjoy mindlessly spamming a single button all the time that's great, many people do not and adding more complexity back into healers certainly wouldn't stop anyone from continuing to spam that 1 button, you just wouldn't perform as well as healers who want to put in a bit more effort.



SCH had both Chain Stratagem and Fey Wind in Stormblood. We didn't get a crit buff for the party but simply lost our haste buff, you either don't know what you're talking about or are willfully using false information to support your claim. Peace

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Well maybe u dont see well cause i made my arguments just fine. About the fey and chain statagem i didnt remember that they coexisted in stormblood. So im sorry for that. I might as well tell you fey wasnt always a buff but a debuff cause it could derail rotations of some dps jobs. Are u shocked ? I think you are not. Its just u have to support the " poor little sch lost so many dps skills and now we are forced to press 1 button " which is false anyway. Peace

this dude is the epitome of the duning-kruger effect lmao

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Originally Posted by QooEr

this dude is the epitome of the duning-kruger effect lmao

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At least im adding something constructive to the thread. If they gonna cry for months for loosing miasma 2 that had a near 0 contribution anyway with its lame potency and shadowflare which is removed from the game not just sch for a reason. Then so be it. That wont stop me from expressing my opinion. You from the other side add nothing to the thread . >.<

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

If they gonna cry for months for loosing miasma 2 that had a near 0 contribution anyway with its lame potency

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Guess I'll tell you a little secret, you used Miasma 2 to weave even in single target because it's dot made it better than Ruin 2 if your mp allowed for it.

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

At least im adding something constructive to the thread.

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If your definition of constructive is repeating that healers are fine the way they are with every post then yes...otherwise no.

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

I might as well tell you fey wasnt always a buff but a debuff cause it could derail rotations of some dps jobs.

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Yes, as any other buff that influences your GCD can be a detriment to certain job rotations and if your group composition made Selene an issue you could simply switch to Eos, now you have no choice at all.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Guess I'll tell you a little secret, you used Miasma 2 to weave even in single target because it's dot made it better than Ruin 2 if your mp allowed for it.



If your definition of constructive is repeating that healers are fine the way they are with every post then yes...otherwise no.

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You know what? You are right. They should give miasma 2 back, with the same potency and mp cost though and i really wanna see your mp managent after that and how often u will use it. it will make your dps rotation less monotonous than now. What about fey light ? No comment ? Got you there i guess
Constructive is any comment that adds to the thread even if u disagree with it. It still adds something. Free speech you know.

Yes, as any other buff that influences your GCD can be a detriment to certain job rotations and if your group composition made Selene an issue you could simply switch to Eos, now you have no choice at all.

There are no more gcd alteration skills in the game, for a reason. Still shc bring that up like its a loss to their kit. Poor schs. Boom brain exploded

if there's one aspect about old tanking i do miss, it was the passive abilities of tank stances. I would love to see the tank stances return as more than just a blue emnity button. something simple like

WAR- Increase HP pool by 30% and self healing by 20%
DRK- increase defence by 10% and damage dealt by 10%
PLD- increase defence by 10% and block rate by 20%
GNB- increase defence by 10% and parry rate by 20%

something to give each of the tanks more unique flavour by complementing their gameplay.
then we can do away with that awful lv 1 mastery trait that only bloats our HP pools and passive mitigation, thus making active usage of mitigation skills more important again. they could even introduce dps stances with simple benefits to further complement our kits. maybe dps stances change the 1-2-3 into the old emnity combos? maybe certain skills can only be used in dps stance (such as edge of shadow for DRK)
not sure but just something to add a little more job identity back

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

" poor little sch lost so many dps skills and now we are forced to press 1 button " which is false anyway. Peace

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I did a little experiment and picked a random 89th percentile E5s log off fflogs. It has 140 Broil casts, now let's assume said SCH has a recast of 2.4 seconds which is faster than the BiS would be but whatever. This adds up to 336 seconds or 5.6 minutes of just spamming the same button in a fight that lasted 8 minutes 47 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

Constructive is any comment that adds to the thread even if u disagree with it. It still adds something. Free speech you know

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What you're doing is about as constructive as if I were just going "healer bad, SE fix". You're certainly free to do so and I will use my free speech in return to tell you that your arguments are terrible because not only is it basically the same argument over and over but you also barely explain why you think the current design is so much better.

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Originally Posted by bundythenoob

if there's one aspect about old tanking i do miss, it was the passive abilities of tank stances. I would love to see the tank stances return as more than just a blue emnity button. something simple like

WAR- Increase HP pool by 30% and self healing by 20%
DRK- increase defence by 10% and damage dealt by 10%
PLD- increase defence by 10% and block rate by 20%
GNB- increase defence by 10% and parry rate by 20%

something to give each of the tanks more unique flavour by complementing their gameplay.
then we can do away with that awful lv 1 mastery trait that only bloats our HP pools and passive mitigation, thus making active usage of mitigation skills more important again. they could even introduce dps stances with simple benefits to further complement our kits. maybe dps stances change the 1-2-3 into the old emnity combos? maybe certain skills can only be used in dps stance (such as edge of shadow for DRK)
not sure but just something to add a little more job identity back

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The passive mitigation we gain from our mastery trait is rather pointless anyway since the tank damage bosses do is already adjusted for the trait, so we're not really taking less damage.
I do quite like the idea, maybe I'm biased because I liked WAR's huge HP pool. They would however have to remove or severely nerf Darkside though, you can't just give DRK a flat 10% damage buff and there is also the issue of parry becoming absolutely useless if the boss has auto attacks that deal magic damage.

if it was in the toolkit and its not anymore its a loss, regardless of what you think.

scholar lost bane but you just brushed it off for whatever reason despite sch needing something to spend aetherflows on during pulls.

wether smn lost or kept shadowflare is inconsequential to the conversation because theyre separate jobs and sch still ultimately lost the skill, and nothing to replace its niche. (gave slow to mobs to mitigate damage during pulls and most importantly it was a cooldown to look out for when executing their rotation.

scholar still lost miasma 1, despite smn keeping it.

finally just because you in your Grey-tness didnt use skills like miasma ii or fey wind, doesn't mean others didn't use or like them.

sch also lost the ability to use fairy skills without using a weave spot and to cast embrace on whichever target they desired



if you seriously think all scholar lost was "2 dots", you were never a good scholar to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The passive mitigation we gain from our mastery trait is rather pointless anyway since the tank damage bosses do is already adjusted for the trait, so we're not really taking less damage.
I do quite like the idea, maybe I'm biased because I liked WAR's huge HP pool. They would however have to remove or severely nerf Darkside though, you can't just give DRK a flat 10% damage buff.

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well I would say that Darkside should stay, thus giving DRK 20% damage, but this would only be to offset their lower defence value compared to the other tanks. this would allow for smart usage of tbn and other cooldowns to shine further. but yeah if it proves too strong, i guess darkside could be changed to only activate when tank stance is off? thus they always have a way to access 10% dmg to make up for the lack of other passives.

Perhaps change their tank stance to give 20% magic mitigation instead of 10% damage? idk, just some quick thoughts to try and bring back the class identity through their stances

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Originally Posted by QooEr

if it was in the toolkit and its not anymore its a loss, regardless of what you think.

scholar lost bane but you just brushed it off for whatever reason despite sch needing something to spend aetherflows on during pulls.

wether smn lost or kept shadowflare is inconsequential to the conversation because theyre separate jobs and sch still ultimately lost the skill, and nothing to replace its niche. (gave slow to mobs to mitigate damage during pulls and most importantly it was a cooldown to look out for when executing their rotation.

scholar still lost miasma 1, despite smn keeping it.

finally just because you in your Grey-tness didnt use skills like miasma ii or fey wind, doesn't mean others didn't use or like them.

sch also lost the ability to use fairy skills without using a weave spot and to cast embrace on whichever target they desired



if you seriously think all scholar lost was "2 dots", you were never a good scholar to begin with.

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Art of war adds up the dmg of baned dots. You dont have to be einstein to get that. Using fey wind on your party really made u a good sch.NOT!And for the last time both slow pool on the ground and alteration of gcd removed from all afected jobs by SE, its not just sch loss. If u cant accept that its your problem. They ve been removed for a reason.

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Originally Posted by bundythenoob

Perhaps change their tank stance to give 20% magic mitigation instead of 10% damage? idk, just some quick thoughts to try and bring back the class identity through their stances

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This would atleast play into the idea of DRK being the magic mitigation tank, because currently only Dark Mind has mitigation for a specific damage type.
I would be fine with some tanks being better for certain encounters than others, I just doubt SE is.

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

Art of war adds up the dmg of baned dots. You dont have to be einstein to get that. Using fey wind on your party really made u a good sch.NOT!And for the last time both slow pool on the ground and alteration of gcd removed from all afected jobs by SE, its not just sch loss. If u cant accept that its your problem. They ve been removed for a reason.

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I've said this before, maybe it does add up to the same potency, maybe it doesn't, I can't be bothered to do the math. Fact is, SCH still lost two other sources of aoe damage.

I feel like I'm repeating myself but just stating that SE removed haste buffs and slow effects neither explains why SCH didn't get a replacement for them nor is it an argument for why losing those skills without said replacement is a good thing.
Using Fey Wind alone didn't make you a good SCH but managing your party buff optimally was part of being a good SCH.
Sorry but "SCH losing skills is good because I say it's good" is a pretty terrible argument.

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

Art of war adds up the dmg of baned dots. You dont have to be einstein to get that.

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yes, people dont like that scholar's aoe turned into a 1 button rotation. might as well replace all the rotations with 1 button that says "do damage".

and REGARDLESS, there is still nothing to spend aetherflows during mob pulls where healing isnt needed, which you conveniently ignored

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

Using fey wind on your party really made u a good sch.NOT!.

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using a job's whole kit is what separates mediocre players from good ones. its not that hard to comprehend. theres a reason speedkills used fey wind.

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

And for the last time both slow pool on the ground and alteration of gcd removed from all afected jobs by SE, its not just sch loss. If u cant accept that its your problem. They ve been removed for a reason.

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"its not just scholar's loss" does not mean "its not scholars loss". scholar still lost the skills and received nothing to make up for the loss in GAMEPLAY DEPTH. if you cannot comprehend that i dont know what to tell you. if they wanted to get rid of haste buffs they could've changed fey winds effect, but instead they just deleted selene

have you wondered why people never mention rouse, despite scholar losing that skill too? its because they got a skill that filled that niche (buffing your summon), summon seraph.

people are unhappy that scholar lost skills and got nothing in return to fill the niches they satisfied, wether it's a cooldown or a dot or a ground aoe.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

yes, people dont like that scholar's aoe turned into a 1 button rotation. might as well replace all the rotations with 1 button that says "do damage".

and REGARDLESS, there is still nothing to spend aetherflows during mob pulls where healing isnt needed, which you conveniently ignored


using a job's whole kit is what separates mediocre players from good ones. its not that hard to comprehend. theres a reason speedkills used fey wind.



"its not just scholar's loss" does not mean "its not scholars loss". scholar still lost the skills and received nothing to make up for the loss in GAMEPLAY DEPTH. if you cannot comprehend that i dont know what to tell you. if they wanted to get rid of haste buffs they could've changed fey winds effect, but instead they just deleted selene

have you wondered why people never mention rouse, despite scholar losing that skill too? its because they got a skill that filled that niche (buffing your summon), summon seraph.

people are unhappy that scholar lost skills and got nothing in return to fill the niches they satisfied, wether it's a cooldown or a dot or a ground aoe.

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I didnt ingored anything , u have energy drain to use aetherflow stacks. Bane is removed for obvioua reasons.
Ppl are unhappy all the time. Thats my point. When their class recieves changes, are unhappy. And this is happening on every expansion. Creating 100 of posts how healing is boring is stupid and worthless. Changes to every class will happen either u like it or not. Take it or leave it. Noone forces u to play healer or Sch cause u think that with miasma 2 and slow debuff u were more busy and happy

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

I didnt ingored anything , u have energy drain to use aetherflow stacks. Bane is removed for obvioua reasons.
Ppl are unhappy all the time. Thats my point. When their class recieves changes, are unhappy. And this is happening on every expansion. Creating 100 of posts how healing is boring is stupid and worthless. Changes to every class will happen either u like it or not. Take it or leave it. Noone forces u to play healer or Sch cause u think that with miasma 2 and slow debuff u were more busy and happy

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"obvious" reasons. Care to elaborate or is your galaxy brain going to say something along the lines of "it's so obvious I shouldn't even NEED to say it hyuk hyuk". I've said it in another post and I'll say it here as well. Change CAN be good. I am not opposed to change, however, let me hit you with a scenario.

Let's say, you come home from work/school/whatever and at the table waiting for you is pizza, you love pizza, and for awhile it's amazing. After awhile you decide it's time to change so you tell your spouse/mom/whoever is making it for you that you'd like to try something different, but that has a similar feel, as you do really enjoy the pizza, you just think it's time to take it up a notch. So the next day you come in and they pooped on your plate with their defense being "yOu JuSt DoN't LiKe ChAnGe!!!!" Obviously that has nothing to do with it, you just don't want poop. That 's what the changes are, they're poop.

I also like to bring up the equivalent exchange, if they're going to take something away there needs to be something of equal or greater value to take it's place. 1 change I'm okay with is the loss of the critlo spread, because in exchange we got recitation which is an amazing ability. Do I miss the critlo spread at points? sure, it can sting a bit, but, I got something so good in return that I cannot bring myself to complain about it. What was gained for Selene? nothing. What was gained for Miasma? nothing. What was gained for bane? nothing. What was gained for eye for an eye? nothing. What was gained for quickened aetherflow? nothing. What was gained for Shadow Flare? nothing.What was gained for cleric stance? nothing. What was gained for miasma II? Art of War, which is worse. Sure, it does more damage in AoE situations, but it has a lot less uses. The worst part if they had ADDED art of war, instead of replacing Miasma II with it, I'd have said it was a great addition because it would've made our AoE rotation better and similar in feel to our ST, it had real potential but they threw it away.

But your biggest focus on SCH has been the DPS and people complaining about that, granted, I've seen a lot of people being vocal about the DPS abilities lost, and rightfully so, they're a huge part about why I loved the class, but let's talk about the OTHER huge issue with ShB SCH, the fairy. Let's start with Selene. Give me one good reason why they outright deleted Selene, and no the excuse of "she was niche and her uses were limited" is not a good reason. Titan was also niche and had limited use, but instead of outright deleting him, they let SMN keep that pet and reworked it to be more useful while also being unique, they just didn't care enough about SCH to give them the same attention and it was a lot easier to just delete a pet. The excuse of "well her buff would throw off people's rotations is bad!" is also not going to hold water, because, you can change the buff, we have the technology believe it or not, SE just didn't want to put in the effort. Let's also not forget that you now have to weave in your pet abilities, the embrace was nerfed to being so laughably weak that you may as well not even have it, you have no say who she embraces either is she going to embrace the tank who actually needs a heal or the DPS who's missing 10hp? Who knows! I have absolutely 0 say in the matter. Let's also not forget that she is so ridiculously unresponsive now. Not only do I have to weave her in, but I have to wait up to 10 seconds for her to even decide "okay, now I feel like casting this ability" which was NEVER an issue from what I played in SB, and that's even if she decides to use it at all, she can flat out refuse to use the ability and just eat the CD, in what POSSIBLE way is any of this a positive change? In SB you told fairy to do something and she did this amazing thing, she just did it WHAT AN INNOVATION! imagine pressing a button and something just HAPPENING and not having to wait for the AI to decide it can do it whenever the fuck it wants. That is a flat out worse change.

The excuse of "yOu JuSt DoN't LiKe ChAnGe" doesn't work when it is a flat out worse change in every conceivable way. The only good thing that SCH got this expac that I would genuinely miss is recitation. Other than that, take literally everything else away and replace it with SB SCH. This was not a good change, it was laughably pathetic. You're free to like it if you want, and more power to you if you do, but just because something changed doesn't make it positive or negative. A lot of people recognize when changes need to happen, and they welcome good change (see that nobody fights to have 1.0 BRD with ammo, because getting rid of that was a POSITIVE change)

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

I didnt ingored anything , u have energy drain to use aetherflow stacks. Bane is removed for obvioua reasons.
Ppl are unhappy all the time. Thats my point. When their class recieves changes, are unhappy. And this is happening on every expansion. Creating 100 of posts how healing is boring is stupid and worthless. Changes to every class will happen either u like it or not. Take it or leave it. Noone forces u to play healer or Sch cause u think that with miasma 2 and slow debuff u were more busy and happy

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i said for aoe. using energy drains on aoe packs is extremely unrewarding.

while one cannot please everyone and there will always be someone who doesn't like something, it doesn't magically make negative feedback useless. everyone knows changes are going to happen but that doesn't mean all change is good and everything the devs put out is perfect. shb lilies were a good change to healers, pruning dps skills was not.

and its funny that you say that because i in fact do not play scholar. i used to like playing it in stormblood but since shb i never bothered doing savage with it. a lot of people stopped playing the jobs they liked playing and switched to white mage or some other role completely because its just not fun for them anymore, yet you seem to think that is somehow good and preferable.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

i said for aoe. using energy drains on aoe packs is extremely unrewarding.

while one cannot please everyone and there will always be someone who doesn't like something, it doesn't magically make negative feedback useless. everyone knows changes are going to happen but that doesn't mean all change is good and everything the devs put out is perfect. shb lilies were a good change to healers, pruning dps skills was not.

and its funny that you say that because i in fact do not play scholar. i used to like playing it in stormblood but since shb i never bothered doing savage with it. a lot of people stopped playing the jobs they liked playing and switched to white mage or some other role completely because its just not fun for them anymore, yet you seem to think that is somehow good and preferable.

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The problem is that in every expansion there ppl unhappy with the changes their main job received. And thats fine. Making 100 of posts about ruined healers and boring and useless, not reflecting the truth at all. Healers always had 2 dots 1 aoe and 1 single target spell. The only exception was scholar that had 2 more dots and a ruin 2 to weave. Bane is obviously removed cause its use was to spread dots foe aoe dmg, since sch didnt have aoe spells like gravity and holy. Now they got ART OF WAR. This sums up the dmg of shared dots with bane. So he is like other healer now ,he got an aoe spell( not to mention its instant cast and that really cool). Also scholar kept his ruin 2 to weave and other healers has no skill to compensate for that. So instead of just look the changes with some logic( yeah its hard to that for some ppl). They are crying for loosing skills without a reason. Slow debuff removed from casters and now tanks and dps apply it. Fey light removed from game entirely including astro card that was modifying at.speed cause it was a skill that had barely good use cause it was causing derail on certain jobs rotations. So the only loss if u count it as a loss is miasma 1 and 2. Fk logic. Lets fill the forums with how healers are boring since now we dont spread the dots but we got art of war like other healers. Healers were always that simple in skills cause their main job is to heal not to dps. If i were a sch i would thank instead for letting me use ruin 2. Not cry about other changes. If they need to be fair they need to remove ruin 2 cause it adds extra mobility to sch to be in par with the other healers. Make sch again great and engaging. Lmao dude. U need to search something else , cause sch was never engaging dps wise. And it will never be. Its pure logic and math, unless u found engaging pressing 3 buttons instead of 1 to do aoe dmg. Omg these forum guys

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

unless u found engaging pressing 3 buttons instead of 1 to do aoe dmg. Omg these forum guys

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As far as I can tell that IS what people are asking for.
More buttons to push.
More things to juggle.
If there's more to do you're too busy to be bored, even if you're doing something that's ultimately simple.

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

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For someone who claims it was so simple, you're not very good at it, and I'm sure if I looked up what you did in SB or HW I'd be even less impressed, but, let's actually head into this.

"only having 2 more dots didn't make things less boring" is what your statement boils down to, and sure, if they were like SMN dots I can see how someone could come to that conclusion. SMN will always reapply bio and miasma at the same time seeing as how they have the exact same timer, there is 0 reason not to. That was not the case for SCH, all your dots had different timers, this meant if you were doing your job and keeping all your dots up and refreshing them when they needed to be refreshed, you had to break your broil casts much more often to use Miasma, miasma II, shadow flare, and whatever other dots they had in HW. This meant you had more timers to watch, more to keep track of, and more to do. Was it the most complex thing in the world? absolutely not, was it more than they have now? absolutely. That's not including timers like SB cleric stance, so add that to the list as well. (also this nonsense of your main job is to heal, your main job is to keep people alive. If you're doing your job well you should be spending anywhere from 70-90% of all your casts on DPS. People do not need to be at full at all times to be alive, the only HP that matters is the last one) And yes, keeping up with all those timers and using them all exactly when you needed to was engaging, especially for me, I'm a slut for dots, I love dots, shower me in dots, give me 10 dots and I'd still want more, because keeping that shit up and refreshing them at the right times is so satisfying to me. And SCH did have an AoE spell like gravity and holy BTW, it was Miasma II, and it was better than Art of War, perhaps not in damage, but in versatility it sure was. Weaving with Miasma II added to SCH's risk/reward gameplay, something that SCH could call its own. You had Selene, Miasma II, bane, energy drain, and shadow flare all feed into this idea of "you can use this for more DPS, but it comes at a cost of you having weaker heals, so if you use them be very sure you can" and that shit is fucking top, I'm all about that. Risk/reward is some of the most satisfying game design there is, and SCH barely has any left, with that only being in ED which they had to BEG for over a month to have back because SE has no idea what they're doing with healers and thought aetherflow would somehow work as a mechanic without a DPS skilled tied to it. (in case you forgot, it didn't, aetherflow was actually a useless mechanic without ED, something anyone with the most basic understanding of SCH could tell you, but somehow SE was shocked to learn that SCHs needed, really shows you how well they understand healers doesn't it) Miasma II had the risk of being a better weave than Ruin II, but it had the cost of A) more MP spent and B)you had to get close to the boss. ED has the risk of spending an aetherflow for damage, an aetheflow you now cannot spend on a heal, so be sure you're not going to need it, shadow flare had the risk of not being able to be put down along side Sacred Soil, meaning down shadow flare while sacred was out sacred would disappear, so make sure you don't need that mitigation, bane had the same risk as energy drain more damage at the cost of an aetherflow, meaning you had to be sure you weren't going to need that heal.

These were all a part of SCH's DPS loop, not just "haha miasma go brrrr" timers and risk/reward. And this garbage of "it's not fair that SCH gets to have something but the other healers don't" is nonsense. Why should any class be a copy-paste of another class. The entire point of having separate classes is to play one that fits your taste. And yes, the other two healer do have weaving options BTW, AST has malefic, every single malefic gives them a free window for an oGCD weave, they also have lightspeed for movement as well as more weaving. WHM has lilies, slightly different from ruin II but they fulfill the same purposes.

As for "fey wind bad because giving classes SS can ruin rotations!" then why didn't they just change the buff? Believe it or not SE has that technology, they are perfectly capable of changing what fey wind buffs, it could've upped damage, crit chance, DH chance, be a % up to det, it could've been an AoE attack on a CD, or any number of things, so why did SE take the laziest route possible and just delete it? Because Selene was niche? Then why does SMN get to keep titan who was also niche and who SE DID rework? You want to know the answer? Because they don't care enough about healers to give them the same type of treatment.

You also haven't told me why moving the fairies over to oGCDs and making their AI rock bottom stupid and outright ghosting your abilities is a good change. Still waiting for that explanation from your galaxy brain.

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

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Wow. There's a lot here.


- "This sums up the dmg of shared dots with bane."

Part of why people are upset is precisely because we have had a complex aoe dot rotation swapped for a 1-button push-to-win. Sure, even if the damage from Art of War is comparable to what Scholar's dots + Bane used to be, it just isn't as exciting to click one button over and over; additionally, this was part of Scholar's identity and distinctiveness as a job. The fact that the Scholar "is like other healers now" is part of why people are upset. Scholar lost part of its identity in the wave of homogenisation that has occurred, and that is absolutely a valid concern to address.

- "So instead of just look the changes with some logic( yeah its hard to that for some ppl)"

You, uh, might want to tone down the salt a bit.

- "So the only loss if u count it as a loss is miasma 1 and 2."

I just cannot see this logic. They lost so much more than just 2 skills. Having all of Bio, Bio II, Miasma, Miasma II, Bane and Shadow Flare, also Eye for an Eye and Selene herself be entirely ousted from the Scholar's kit for a measely Art of War is so much more of a loss than just two skills. It is not even comparable. Part of the damage here, as others have iterated, is the unfairness in the trade-off.

- "Healers were always that simple in skills cause their main job is to heal not to dps."

Reading this just makes me sad. Part of the healers' charm, and Scholar's in particular, in ffxiv ARR and HW was that healers didn't just heal. Sticking to Scholar, it could do so much more during its downtime back then than it ever could now. As a Scholar, you could contribute to fights with an actual meaningful dps rotation that was your own, shared lore-wise with the Arcanist and Summoner. It meant a lot to players because the job had more versatility and a higher skill ceiling which allowed for more complex gameplay outside of just healing. It was part of what made Scholar special. Now, however, we've been homogenised.
I cringe whenever I see this argument because if anyone truly believes that healers should only heal and not dps then I'd say you're missing out on the fun that playing healer used to be like. Although I understand that newer and more inexperienced players might have a difficult time of it handling a more complex toolkit, I think dumbing down the options at the expense of your veteran playerbase is a grave misstep. Instead, tutorials in-game should reflect and emphasize that any player learning to play a healer job should focus on mastering their healing toolkit first, then worry about dps later when they're comfortable -- or not at all, if that's your cup of tea. While I am not a game designer, I think this would be a much more inclusive path for both parties than the direction we're going in now. Don't get me wrong, I'm very much in favour of job accessibility, but not at the expense of job homogenisation.

- "cause sch was never engaging dps wise."

Yes. It was.

Honestly, I can't see your "pure logic and math." It's fine if you support the alterations the devs have made to Scholar, but please bring more substantial arguments to the table than just sheer salt-ridden rhetoric. This helps no one.

Not gonna bother anymore with this discussion really. Sch is now like other healers. Healers are perfectly balanced and so tanks as well. If u felt special being on meta all these expansions pushing out whm and u are not needed anymore thats fair to me. All healers should be and are equal. Why Sch having more dots and baning them, no u will get the same spell like holy and gravity, take it or leave it. The ultimate meta stupid theory made SE to homogenosize jobs cause einsteins out there excluded jobs from raiding resulting in masses following their advice causing ppl that liked a job to reroll to Sch or Ast. now all jobs are accepted and thats a big win win from SE side. Even if u think in your little galaxy brain that sch had a difficult rotation well now he doesnt , he is like other healers that always were boring. If u dont like it reroll. u never gonna get back what SCH had, SE wont do that mistake again. Hail meta for everyone. Cyaaaa

"Healers were always that simple in skills cause their main job is to heal not to dps."

I'm a dps main, currently leveling astro.

Even when playing healers a bit during dungeons, it is blatantly obvious that there is a lot of down time in which you have nothing to do. When everyone has full health or almost full with regens, a healers job should be to dps.

Giving all healers one button spams when there is so much downtime is just terrible game design. But it wouldn't be bad to have one easy healer for hyper casual players or people oddly allergic to dps.

Regarding the "meta" issues, WHM needed a boost, not destroying the other healers.

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

Not gonna bother anymore with this discussion really. Sch is now like other healers. Healers are perfectly balanced and so tanks as well. If u felt special being on meta all these expansions pushing out whm and u are not needed anymore thats fair to me. All healers should be and are equal. Why Sch having more dots and baning them, no u will get the same spell like holy and gravity, take it or leave it. The ultimate meta stupid theory made SE to homogenosize jobs cause einsteins out there excluded jobs from raiding resulting in masses following their advice causing ppl that liked a job to reroll to Sch or Ast. now all jobs are accepted and thats a big win win from SE side. Even if u think in your little galaxy brain that sch had a difficult rotation well now he doesnt , he is like other healers that always were boring. If u dont like it reroll. u never gonna get back what SCH had, SE wont do that mistake again. Hail meta for everyone. Cyaaaa

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Lmao. Whoever said people wanted SCH to be meta? You can have classes be unique AND balanced, believe it or not, science hasn't deemed such a thing impossible. But yeah man, see ya, you couldn't handle people proving you wrong and threw a temper tantrum.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

But yeah man, see ya, you couldn't handle people proving you wrong and threw a temper tantrum.

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I dunno man, I searched up some of their older posts and it looks like they're low key being bullied on this forum.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I dunno man, I searched up some of their older posts and it looks like they're low key being bullied on this forum.

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Depends on what you mean by "bullied". If they're constantly throwing out wrong facts in a salt-fueled rage and they're being shot down because of it, I'd hardly call that bullying, just someone who couldn't handle being told they're wrong. IE, he really thinks that SCH only lost 2 dots despite the fact SCH has lost 3+ dots since HW, lost Selene, lost the ability to use the fairy separately from their own GCD, lost the ability to spread their dots, etc.

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

now all jobs are accepted and thats a big win win from SE side.

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Is it really a win though?

Why was it an issue that certain jobs were "excluded"? If your job wasn't meta, then why couldn't you just reroll to a better one? Why does it matter what job you play? Why is balance important, if you can just switch to any job whenever, based on what's preferred at the time?

Is it because you enjoy playing a certain job and dislike the others? Because people have play-style preferences? But if that's the reason, then how does making all jobs play similar and killing off their individual mechanics help?

It doesn't.

Balance through homogenization is straight up pointless, as it defeats the entire purpose of striving for balance - to let people play what they want without feeling forced to play something they don't like. If you achieve equality by making everything feel the same, then you're not giving players more viable options - you take options away and force everyone to play the same, cookie-cutter job, just with different paint job choices. Shadowbringers tank and healer design is the epitome of missing the point. Asymmetrical balance isn't just better - it's the only way that makes any sense, in a game that's designed around different class choices.

If you're always expected to reroll to the meta pick, then you're losing out on options either way.

Homogenisation isn't the answer, but it is the starting point. Once you have a level playing field, you can start understand the difference between what is simply useful and what is essential. No job should have a monopoly on essential abilities. You can change up everything else after that to create variation and flavour.

There was a lot of inertia against change that had built up behind the usual meta picks over the past three expansions. Shadowbringers took a sledgehammer approach to it.

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

Not gonna bother anymore with this discussion really. Sch is now like other healers. Healers are perfectly balanced and so tanks as well.

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I'll say it once and I'll say it a million other times.
Fun is more important than balance. You can make a job that's balanced between all other jobs... just make them all do the same thing. Is that FUN???!??!?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

There was a lot of inertia against change that had built up behind the usual meta picks over the past three expansions. Shadowbringers took a sledgehammer approach to it.

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Except everyone already had the essential abilities. While WHM and DRK were considered "the worst" in their respective roles, neither was even close to unplayable in any content, nor were they actually widely excluded in Stormblood. The only situations when you'd be realistically locked out were speedruns(which will always pick the meta jobs regardless of how small the advantage is) or a couple dumb PF people who exclude jobs based on arbitrary prejudice(which also will always happen, as those prejudices are often not even based in reality). Things weren't even remotely bad enough to warrant bringing out the sledge hammer.

They also didn't give the same treatment to DPS jobs, which had much worse issues with meta, so I find it rather naive to think they intended to just "reset things and start over".

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

Not gonna bother anymore with this discussion really. Sch is now like other healers. Healers are perfectly balanced and so tanks as well. If u felt special being on meta all these expansions pushing out whm and u are not needed anymore thats fair to me. All healers should be and are equal. Why Sch having more dots and baning them, no u will get the same spell like holy and gravity, take it or leave it. The ultimate meta stupid theory made SE to homogenosize jobs cause einsteins out there excluded jobs from raiding resulting in masses following their advice causing ppl that liked a job to reroll to Sch or Ast. now all jobs are accepted and thats a big win win from SE side. Even if u think in your little galaxy brain that sch had a difficult rotation well now he doesnt , he is like other healers that always were boring. If u dont like it reroll. u never gonna get back what SCH had, SE wont do that mistake again. Hail meta for everyone. Cyaaaa

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i really don't understand why people can't see that having balance does not have to come at the cost of gameplay identity. Just looking at tanks for example, PLD is the perfect showcase of how a job can still evolve and retain its gameplay identity while still being balanced, as well as being accessible for new players AND having a decent skill ceiling for veterans. WAR was already a very well balanced tank in terms of accessibility, it simply needed some tuning of its numbers, but instead they took it to the butcher's block. Don't even get me started on DRK. as for GNB, I have this stinking suspicion that it was created with STB tank design in mind, and then after SE went and neutered DRK and WAR, they simply didn't mess with GNB because "muh shiny new toy"

there's also nothing wrong with having certain jobs be the "high skill" jobs of their respective role. this gives both new players an incentive to get better, and gives the veterans a chance to test their skills if they so wish. don't like the job? then just reroll like you said. I myself used to be a TERRIBLE DRK when i first picked it up in HW, and when I came back for STB I had to relearn the job, but when I finally got the hang of it, it was the most exhilarating job in the game next to STB SCH. Im sure most of us would rather see a new player work hard and strive to learn the hard jobs than to see them get dumbed down to the point of being a reskinned version of another job. i mean sure, tanks and healers are balanced, but if they're not fun, then what's the point in playing sch vs whm? or drk vs war?

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Depends on what you mean by "bullied".

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By "bullied" I mean shit like this:

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Originally Posted by QooEr

this dude is the epitome of the duning-kruger effect lmao

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Snip

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I agree, that comment was uncalled for, but I wouldn't say their own behaviour was particularly stellar.

Before we start throwing words like "bullied" around, I think it's important to remember that bringing back job identity is a hotly debated issue right now; moreover, arguing against the topic of the thread in the salt-ridden manner they did -- at least, that's what I saw -- is a recipe for backlash. In addition, denying overwhelming argumentative statements with superfluous words like math and logic just does not fly in a discussion. Believe me, I welcome opposing opinions heartily, but they need to have substance. Regardless, I think we should let this digression rest.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

I would rather see something like a spell that serves as a "pressure release valve" for your fae gauge so you can keep it from overcapping when you dont need to heal with it ...

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This is actually a very interesting proposition. A dps alternative for the fae gauge is a change I would welcome with open arms, as it plays into risk vs reward and would add to the identity of the job in a meaningful direction. Kudos!

Darned if we do darned if we don't. I played wow for a few months during my break and like yeah, I get it? Healers in that game do have more interesting tools and synergies depending on the class. And that's honestly what kinda stuff I want to see at this point.

I dont want an extra dot for the sake of having an extra dot, I want something extra that rewards me for keeping it up besides just "being a different button to press once every 18 seconds."

Like how in pvp SCH uses its dps to build fae guage and use the fae guage to give themselves more healing. Or how WHM has the Lily system. or AST, where its gimmick is less its dps/heal synergy but the buff management. instead of making the dps rotations more complex, make them interact with and make your systems more efficient and rewarding.

I could care less about the intricacies of Miasma II or the fact Shadowflare was an extra button to cast. I would rather see something like a spell that serves as a "pressure release valve" for your fae gauge so you can keep it from overcapping when you dont need to heal with it then to simply bring back old spells with no real coherent reason.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Except everyone already had the essential abilities. While WHM and DRK were considered "the worst" in their respective roles, neither was even close to unplayable in any content, nor were they actually widely excluded in Stormblood. The only situations when you'd be realistically locked out were speedruns(which will always pick the meta jobs regardless of how small the advantage is) or a couple dumb PF people who exclude jobs based on arbitrary prejudice(which also will always happen, as those prejudices are often not even based in reality). Things weren't even remotely bad enough to warrant bringing out the sledge hammer.

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The homogenization didn't just happen because of the underperformers. It also happened because of the overperformers. Every tank has a 60s/90s burst phase because of Warrior's ability to cheese Phantom Train's Ghost+Throttle phase in 2 gcds which neither PLD nor DRK could do. SE needed to normalize tank burst damage so that those sorts of solo add fights could be done by all tanks without having one tank break it.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The homogenization didn't just happen because of the underperformers. It also happened because of the overperformers. Every tank has a 60s/90s burst phase because of Warrior's ability to cheese Phantom Train's Ghost+Throttle phase in 2 gcds which neither PLD nor DRK could do. SE needed to normalize tank burst damage so that those sorts of solo add fights could be done by all tanks without having one tank break it.

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Oh yeah, being able to cheese a horribly designed mechanic(seriously, why in the hell did killing one ghost dispel the debuffs on everyone, we shall never know) is a totally essential tool that keeps coming up all the time and makes other tanks excluded from raid. /s

Dude, it wasn't even just WAR that could do it. NIN, RDM and probably some other DPS I can't recall now could execute it as well - and at less of a loss too - and it's not like they all got homogenized to hell for that now.
Wagon cheese had nothing to do with tank balance and everything to do with SE's uncanny ability to miss the most obviously broken aspects of their designs every now and then.

Freaking Cover and Hallowed cheeses were more prevalent in Stormblood than that one instance of burst damage and it's not like those were shared or removed - Cover might've been nerfed, but you could still use it for something like Guardian prey or Omega tether no problem as it is now(and it still wasn't "essential" anyways).

Believing that o5s wagon cheese had anything to do with current state is ridiculous. The "advantage" WAR had in there, was the ability to shit out 4 DHCrits within 2 gcds and it's not like all tanks gained something like it this expac, especially with overall nerf to their damage. Hell, WAR's 2-gcd burst stupidity is even more pronounced now thanks to Nascent Chaos, so if anything SHB made the gap even wider in terms of potential for dumb exploits.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

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I think that everyone wants job diversity. However, I find it strange that your stance is also "if one job is a consistent meta pick, just reroll to that job." That's every bit as oppressive as complete homogenisation.

Everyone wants their job to be unique. But to do that you need to bring something to the table that nobody else does. The instant that you do, everyone starts asking for the same thing. Why doesn't my job also have a gap closer? Why doesn't my job also have a raidwide shield? Where's my Cover equivalent? Surprise, surprise, now everyone has everything. We did this.

Most people are happy when their job has a trick that nobody else has. But they absolutely cannot stand the reverse. The answer is not to give away that unique ability that you want copied over to your job. You need to feel that sense of deficiency. The problem with those historical meta picks was that they were unambiguously good at everything, and the instant that someone else had something unique, the pitchforks came out. You have to be deficient at something for that "uniqueness" to mean anything.

Now everyone is at the same level of uniqueness. Let's build it back up again, but on equal terms this time.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Oh yeah, being able to cheese a horribly designed mechanic(seriously, why in the hell did killing one ghost dispel the debuffs on everyone, we shall never know) is a totally essential tool that keeps coming up all the time and makes other tanks excluded from raid. /s

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SE has used the abduction to a solo/semi-solo fight mechanic several times in savage before O5S. It was used in A4S, A7S and A12S and Paladin had problems completing all 3 of those due to lack of burst damage. You know what Paladin got in StB? A 5 gcd burst window. You know what happen in ShB after O5S? Paladin and Dark Knight got massive buffs to their burst damage which make them comparable to Warrior.

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Dude, it wasn't even just WAR that could do it. NIN, RDM and probably some other DPS I can't recall now could execute it as well - and at less of a loss too - and it's not like they all got homogenized to hell for that now.

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The DpS are all pretty homoginized in damage burst windows even if they are not mechanically homogenized. You can toss every dps into the same mechanics and the will all pass them because SE has standardized what they can do. When a dps can't meet the standards they are buffed until they do.

[quote]Wagon cheese had nothing to do with tank balance and everything to do with SE's uncanny ability to miss the most obviously broken aspects of their designs every now and then.[/quo]

The flaw was only discovered because a Warrior burned their burst on the add after their party's Black Mage failed to get abducted. SE had failed to factor in Warrior's new (5.2) IR burst when tuning the fight.

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Freaking Cover and Hallowed cheeses were more prevalent in Stormblood than that one instance of burst damage and it's not like those were shared or removed - Cover might've been nerfed, but you could still use it for something like Guardian prey or Omega tether no problem as it is now(and it still wasn't "essential" anyways).

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You should note that they changed how fights are designed to prevent Cover cheese. Pretty much every tank buster now is either a two+ stage to force a tank swap or have both tanks being hit by simultaneous tank busters.

For the most part, SE has left in most player discovered ways to cheese mechanics (For example: the Pit in T5 and Pentacle sac strat in A4S) in and then designed later fights so that those methods will no longer cheese things.

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Believing that o5s wagon cheese had anything to do with current state is ridiculous. The "advantage" WAR had in there, was the ability to shit out 4 DHCrits within 2 gcds and it's not like all tanks gained something like it this expac, especially with overall nerf to their damage.

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I think you need to reexamine what the other two tanks got a part of their burst windows:

Paladin went from a 5 gcd burst window that dealt 2750 potency to a 5 gcd burst window that does 3850 potency.
Dark Knight's Bloodspiller went from 400+140(DA) to 600+300(EoS) and can now spam BS 5 times in a row during a burst. If the Dark Knight could have burst like it currently does it would have gone from 2420 potency to 3900 potency.

Both got massive increases in burst damage; enough that they can now compete with Warrior in bursting down targets.

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Hell, WAR's 2-gcd burst stupidity is even more pronounced now thanks to Nascent Chaos, so if anything SHB made the gap even wider in terms of potential for dumb exploits.

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Not really. All the tanks have short microbursts they can pull off. Even if Warrior can 2-gcd something with double Inner Chaos the other tanks have their own ways putting out ~3k potency similarly quick. This was not something they could do in StB.

Gunbreaker for me is in this weird case of "I love and hate it at the same time".

It reminds me of the old WAR rotations, where you'd need to have everything set up in advance for one good attack rotation. And I like that. I like that it's cooldowns aren't incredibly out of sync with the rest of the party's "raidwide dps" rotations (*Cough Cough* Delirium and Inner Release *Cough Cough*)

But I hate it because of the Gnashing Fang combo. I'm sure someone's going to tell me what it's actually called, but frankly, it's offensive that this is an important "cannot let anything interfere" rotation in the GNB's arsenal, because it is 3 GCDs of me being unable to fit in any oGCDs. Which is what tanking is.

So they made a tank, whose optimal play is to disregard its tanking duties. If that doesn't say it all about where tanks are now, I don't know what does.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

But I hate it because of the Gnashing Fang combo. I'm sure someone's going to tell me what it's actually called, but frankly, it's offensive that this is an important "cannot let anything interfere" rotation in the GNB's arsenal, because it is 3 GCDs of me being unable to fit in any oGCDs. Which is what tanking is.

So they made a tank, whose optimal play is to disregard its tanking duties. If that doesn't say it all about where tanks are now, I don't know what does.

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Except you can actually double weave each Continuation with an oGCD. The Gnashing Fang combo doesn't hinder your tank duties in any way, it is simply a bit busier during it's burst windows. The only slightly annoying component of it is when you have to position an add or the boss during your burst, giving you relatively little time to move in-between combos.