Open Letter to the Devs Regarding Eden's Verse: Reflugence [Spoilers]

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Originally Posted by Astrapls

I suggest you don't look to an adolescent's chest size to determine if they're okay to lewd or not.

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Where did I say anything about lewding anyone? I'm trying to help you here. If you want to be taken seriously, then use proper terms.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Where did I say anything about lewding anyone? I'm trying to help you here. If you want to be taken seriously, then use proper terms.

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Fair enough, but people will often use the "it's not pedophillia it's ephebophilia" excuse to dismiss concerns over sexualization of minors. It's semantics and arguing in bad faith.

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Originally Posted by SachiBear

Seriously bad take, like what the hell. That is so untrue and weird to say. Just because she has boobs doesn’t mean she isn’t a child. Her age is what it is, and the shape of her body doesn’t magically make her an adult.

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Precisely. A person's physical development isn't representative of their emotional and mental development.

I believe they're referring to technical definitions. In which case Ryne actually falls more of the line of ephebophilia.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I don't have a problem with the first outfit, that is lore friendly. I don't even have a problem with the Hydaelyn outfit, as that is reminicent of the Hydaelyn wall murals.
I just refuse the believe that my character remembers Saint Shiva (not primal shiva) as naked, where we see her in all her statues as fully clothed and in robes. Did Ryne picture her naked? Because that's kinda weird if she did.
Because Ranjiit certainly wasn't naked.

It's a really weird design choice by the devs. And one that I am questioning them on.

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I already posted this in another thread, but I might as well post it here as well.

Gods, Goddesses, and beings of a divine nature are often depicted with little to no clothing in many forms of art and literature. Since the primal has a halo in her Oracle of Light/Hydaelyn form and we're in a place called Eden, which is filled with angelic and (at times) vaguely Classical imagery, I'm willing to bet that they were aiming for that particular aesthetic.

Their use of Amaurot and Hythlodaeus shows that the writers are obviously familiar with some western European literature and art, so I'm even more willing to believe that Classical imagery was what they were trying to evoke with her Savage attire.

From a modesty/sexualization standpoint, I saw the imagery as no different from these:

https://www.italianways.com/wp-conte...-Bernini-1.jpg
https://www.gianlorenzobernini.org/N...%20Bernini.jpg

There's nothing sexual about either of those to me, and I thought it was the same for E8. I don't remember any gratuitous shots and nothing lewd was going on. She has the same flowing kind of sheet-like covering that many sculptures and paintings use, and she shows arguably less skin than the sculptures pictured above. She's just all anime'd up with Hraesvelger as her wings/covering and is exploding us with light.

I do realize that there are probably a few people that grabbed a box of tissues and ran off to the bathroom as soon as they finished E8, but I'm not gonna blame the writers/artists for that. They haven't done anything pervy with her character so far, so I'm not going to assume that was what they were trying to do with her in E8.

I'm also not trying to say that you or anyone else is wrong for disliking the art. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and it's a good thing to be protective of children. They obviously deserve to grow up in an environment safe from predatory creeps. However, I also believe that we shouldn't let culture stagnate, or society grind to a halt because we're paralyzed in fear over a few bad actors.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

I’m sorry, WHAT?!

Anyway, put me in the camp that also finds the design problematic, but not enough to condemn it because it’s a major exception in the context of this game, rather than the norm. The fact that people are memeing about it rather than treating it as something normal says a lot.

Although it’s amusing that Yoshi-P spent nearly an hour of the last live letter talking about this kind of topic in regards to modding, which just amplified this design even further.

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Yes, this is due to the fact that Yoshi is probably talking about pre-pubescent children.

The person you're quoting is basically making the distinction where it's ephebophilia.

I mean yeah, you can still find this issue problematic, but there is a distinction. It's just that people using "pedophilia" as a general term does conflate certain issues. Let's say your 17 year old son/daughter played the game and found an attraction to Ryne's model? He's/She not a pedophile is he/she?

One other thing, for those trying to correct terminology, it doesn’t matter. The OP has a right to feel how they feel, that is just being a human and of course there is some reason for pause, but.. the issue shouldn’t be whats the right term or what is sexual maturity for a girl/woman.

It should be about not changing art because of a few bad apples, being able to voice an opinion without trying to change what was conveyed. Trying to see other points of view. Should we normalize the perceived sexualization of a potential child like character. No.

Should we be able to appreciate the artistic choices whether we agree with them or not and have a discussion. Absolutely.

I refuse to believe what I'm reading right now is real.

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Originally Posted by Astrapls

Well it is relevant as sexualization is only an issue with female characters, and moreso when it comes to underage characters. It's relevant since it's women who always have to deal with seeing their gender represented as wank bait for the male gamer. Even Ryne isn't immune to that treatment.

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Male characters aren’t sexualized? Tell that to Raubahn or Aymeric, or other game characters, Link, Megaman, Mario, Cloud, Squall, Noctis, any number of male characters called “husbandos” some of which are underage (i.e. referring back to my original post Sonic a young teenager at that)

So it can’t be sexualization if it’s not a woman. That’s little more than virtue signalling and ignoring basic factual evidence.

Gender, race, culture, age, orientation, not one of those things matter, any one and anything can be sexualized if you try hard enough.

The fault of such actions are the personal responsibility of the person doing it, not the creators of the intellectual property.

So no your point is based on a factually incorrect belief that only women can be sexualized.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Male characters aren’t sexualized? Tell that to Raubahn or Aymeric, .

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Sorry, but what? Raubahn and Aymeric aren't sexualized at all. Never at any point in the story are either characters put into revealing clothes or put into a position where it might be sexual.

Men and women can be sexualized. But more often than not women are sexualized far more. Everyone has seen games where men characters are all dressed in reasonable clothing and then their female counter parts are all were skimpy outfits.

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Originally Posted by Korten

Sorry, but what? Raubahn and Aymeric aren't sexualized at all. Never at any point in the story are either characters put into revealing clothes or put into a position where it might be sexual.

Men and women can be sexualized. But more often than not women are sexualized far more. Everyone has seen games where men characters are all dressed in reasonable clothing and then their female counter parts are all were skimpy outfits.

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There’s an unfiltered google search that would like a word with you. Go ahead. I’ll wait.

To be fair, it was a rather baffling plot decision.

The whole thing felt rather forced just to create a thin excuse for Ryne to be Shiva. Thancred strongly objected but not really and their plan was vague at best. And of all the characters to stick in a Shiva outfit they chose Ryne.

They could have gone with a hundred different plot twists, even as far as something like unintentionally bringing Ysayle's spirit back with Edens power and having one last talk at the end ...but nope. Whatever floats their boat I guess.

OP needs to get a damn life. Most people don't care man. Get over it.

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Originally Posted by Korten

Sorry, but what? Raubahn and Aymeric aren't sexualized at all. Never at any point in the story are either characters put into revealing clothes or put into a position where it might be sexual.

Men and women can be sexualized. But more often than not women are sexualized far more. Everyone has seen games where men characters are all dressed in reasonable clothing and then their female counter parts are all were skimpy outfits.

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it's almost like most people who play videogames are male and like the female form.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

There’s an unfiltered google search that would like a word with you. Go ahead. I’ll wait.

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Are you seriously using fan art as an argument? News flash there is porn of everything. That doesn't stop women characters being far more sexualized (in official media) then men characters.

Fucking hell, do you remember how pissed people were getting when the Main character of Mobius Final Fantasy, a guy, showed some skin? SE literally changed the design.

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Originally Posted by Korten

Are you seriously using fan art as an argument? News flash there is porn of everything. That doesn't stop women characters being far more sexualized (in official media) then men characters.

Fucking hell, do you remember how pissed people were getting when the Main character of Mobius Final Fantasy, a guy, showed some skin? SE literally changed the design.

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Are you seriously discounting fan art as not counting towards sexualization of characters, let alone suggestive dates with Aymeric in game, This community’s obsession with haurchefaunt, and any other number of instances. There are about as many cases of intentional female sexualization in this game as there are of males.

And far more evidence of respect for women. Every woman of power in this game has not been sexualized in the slightest in official media, and most are depicted as strong or stronger than men.

Yshtola, Merlyweb, Alisaie, Gaia, Kanna e senna, Livia, Severa, Yugiri, Lyse, Rowena (ultimate character in this game) Jun (Hildy’s mom) they’ve shown amazing development of Ryne herself (but lets throw all that character development away over a not even that revealing outfit) Lyra, Hilda, the list goes on and on, but one artistic design choice and all that goes away because “toxic white male gamers only care to sexualize women.”

This is exactly why we gamers hate this political shite in gaming.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Are you seriously discounting fan art as not counting towards sexualization of characters, let alone suggestive dates with Aymeric in game, This community’s obsession with haurchefaunt, and any other number of instances. There are about as many cases of intentional female sexualization in this game as there are of males.

And far more evidence of respect for women. Every woman of power in this game has not been sexualized in the slightest in official media, and most are depicted as strong or stronger than men.

Yshtola, Merlyweb, Alisaie, Gaia, Kanna e senna, Livia, Severa, Yugiri, Lyse, Rowena (ultimate character in this game) Jun (Hildy’s mom) they’ve shown amazing development of Ryne herself (but lets throw all that character development away over a not even that revealing outfit) Lyra, Hilda, the list goes on and on, but one artistic design choice and all that goes away because “toxic white male gamers only care to sexualize women.”

This is exactly why we gamers hate this political shite in gaming.

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Yes, I am discounting fan art because everything has lewd fan art. By your logic literally everything ever can be considered sexualization because fan art of it exists.

And you know what? FFXIV has done great job. No one is saying FFXIV has done a bad job of it's female characters. In fact in comparison to many Japanese games it's one of the best. That however doesn't suddenly make it above criticism or perfect.

Also politics? Yeah, we need more apolitical stuff like Metal Gear Solid, Bioshock, and FFXIV: Stormblood! (Fun fact: All of the games you play have politics in them as they're made by people who exist in societies that are shaped by the political landscape.)

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Originally Posted by Korten

Yes, I am discounting fan art because everything has lewd fan art. By your logic literally everything ever can be considered sexualization because fan art of it exists.

And you know what? FFXIV has done great job. No one is saying FFXIV has done a bad job of it's female characters. In fact in comparison to many Japanese games it's one of the best. That however doesn't suddenly make it above criticism or perfect.

Also politics? Yeah, we need more apolitical stuff like Metal Gear Solid, Bioshock, and FFXIV: Stormblood! (Fun fact: All of the games you play have politics in them as they're made by people who exist in societies that are shaped by the political landscape.)

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Yea what we don’t need is people trying to force their political shite onto everyone else. We dont need more sterilized conformist bs destroying yet another form of entertainment.

This is the issue. Criticism is one thing, but this isn’t criticism this is a call to change artistic creativity to fit someone else’s sensibilities. This is forcing politics of reality into a fantasy game people play to get away from this crap. We are perpetually bombarded with this stuff on a daily basis. Why is it so wrong for people to not want that in games?

You can dislike the artistic design choices, and as ive stated repeatedly, you could ask the dev team to speak out against the perceived sexualization of their work, ask them to clarify their design choice, disagree with their design choices, but don’t turn this into some social justice matter when it’s not.

Not everything is a crisis. Not everything has to be polarized. Not everything has to be us vs them. I don’t begrudge anyone for the opinions. I begrudge them for wanting to change someone else’s art and work because of their own forced ideals.

Priceless statues in rome were destroyed because a pope thought an exposed genitalia would incite lust in people.

If we start this censorship of artistic creativity now there’s no hope for true creative expression.

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Originally Posted by Korten

Yes, I am discounting fan art because everything has lewd fan art. By your logic literally everything ever can be considered sexualization because fan art of it exists.

And you know what? FFXIV has done great job. No one is saying FFXIV has done a bad job of it's female characters. In fact in comparison to many Japanese games it's one of the best. That however doesn't suddenly make it above criticism or perfect.

Also politics? Yeah, we need more apolitical stuff like Metal Gear Solid, Bioshock, and FFXIV: Stormblood! (Fun fact: All of the games you play have politics in them as they're made by people who exist in societies that are shaped by the political landscape.)

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I’m pretty much in the same boat here.

Reading the room, the impression I get is that at the very least, no one sane except for Mr. ‘she has boobs therefore she must be old enough to have agency’ is pretending this is actually okay. The difference in opinion lies in how much energy we want to put towards pursuing this argument.

Considering the rest of the game is thankfully lacking in this sort of thing (and is otherwise light years ahead in writing and characterization compared to most games today), I’m of the mindset that there are better battles to fight.

And let me be clear once again. My argument is not that it is acceptable to sexualize this character.

My argument is to put the blame where it belongs. With the people who are making the choice to sexualize a character and not punish the community who dont see this character that way and the artists who made these creative decisions by trying to over politicize this issue and force a change where one is not needed.

I’ve given other alternatives multiple times now and if you are so dead set on fighting for no other reason than you can’t see any view point other than your own.

I feel sorry for you and won’t continue to engage you directly. I’ve tried to be rational and point out why people are up in arms about a post like the OP’s but if you can’t stop yourself from politicizing this issue, then there’s little hope or point in debating you further.

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Originally Posted by Astrapls

Fair enough, but people will often use the "it's not pedophillia it's ephebophilia" excuse to dismiss concerns over sexualization of minors. It's semantics and arguing in bad faith.

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No, it's not. There is a difference between the two and ignoring that is arguing in bad faith. Otherwise, you would take the correction and simply move on with your argument. Ephebophilia includes late teens like 18 and 19, which would not be underaged or considered a minor. And that still ignores that the scene itself is not about sex or doing anything of that nature with a minor.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Reading the room, the impression I get is that at the very least, no one sane except for Mr. ‘she has boobs therefore she must be old enough to have agency’ is pretending this is actually okay.

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Well, a sane person would realize that this scene is not about sex with a minor. And unless or until SE is forced to change this, then it is okay. I assume they had to pass the ratings board.

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Originally Posted by linay

No, it's not. There is a difference between the two and ignoring that is arguing in bad faith. Otherwise, you would take the correction and simply move on with your argument. Ephebophilia includes late teens like 18 and 19, which would not be underaged or considered a minor. And that still ignores that the scene itself is not about sex or doing anything of that nature with a minor.

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Apologies, the term I was looking for is hebephilia. Even if she was 15 or 16, it's still gross and weird.

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Originally Posted by Astrapls

Apologies, the term I was looking for is hebephilia. Even if she was 15 or 16, it's still gross and weird.

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I'm sorry, but in terms of puberty, it pretty much ends around 15-17 years of age for women. We just mature faster physically. Mental maturity is a different matter and that's around 25 according to studies regarding our brains.

But in terms of video game characters, this gets a little more ridiculous to argue about given the limitations of the assets they're producing. Meaning the time they're working on the game, they're not gonna update her 3D model to show growth very well. I mean if anything I can see some kind of time shennanigans pop up and at some point if we end up meeting Ryne again in the future she would have fully grown. As it stands now I'm not sure why the mental exercise over a few years here or there for a fictional teen on the brink of womanhood.

I don't find the scene sexually exploiting her, but rather her coming of age. Thancred and Urianger will be leaving The First, so that means she's going to have to grow up at some point. This is why I felt the choice was fair for Ryne to be Shiva, each phase is showing a psyche of womanhood. I don't think it would have carried over symbolically if it were someone else. It makes us uncomfortable because we eventually have to see her as a woman, and not a child to protect. We're not ready for it literally, and figuratively I suppose. Phase 1 playing at an adult, 2 overwhelmed at becoming one, Phase 3 (Savage) eventually bonding with someone you love.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Perhaps the point of it being there is to provoke that outrage to get people to think about things from a different perspective and engage in critical thinking. Not just blindly agree with whats been presented to them.

Critical thought is key to societal survival and evolution, because we have to be able to look at things from multiple viewpoints and opinions to forge the path ahead for all of society otherwise complacency becomes seditious and we rot from our own lack of critical thinking.

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I do not think presenting a nearly naked child is a novel concept.

And the critical thoughts presented so far are not neither novel. They are the same arguments that have been seen before when this topic pops up.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

*snip* I liked your post though!

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I've ummed and ahhed over this particular thread, not because I've not played the content, but because it popped up and I have a teen daughter with whom I discuss representations of girls and women in the media she engages with (including this game. Oh, this game has lots to talk to your teen about!). So, bear that in mind - that my knowledge of this instance is second hand based on what other players have said here, and the image of Ryne which was shared on the thread.

First, I have the same reaction as the OP; that's not cool! Argh! Child, not adult! Oof. That's not going to end well. How would I like it if someone did this to my daughter? Physical maturation, as you note, is not the same as psychological maturation, and there's so much more to adult relationships! *internal parent alarm going off* Don't grow up so fast! Kids should be kids! Someone think of the children! (seriously!).

I think that's okay to be disturbed by this scenario. But sooner or later - I suspect it'll always feel like it's sooner - you have to send your kid off as a young adult and deal with it. You're always the parent, you hope you've done a good job (at least, I hope I'm doing a good job now and it'll pay off in a few years), and you're always there to mop up in the likely event the kid screws up because of the fact the psychological stuff doesn't round up for quite a bit after the physical stuff.

I read about the story going around this particular raid series, and I absolutely can buy into your interpretation, QT_Melon - kid on the verge of physical adulthood plays at being adult in its entirety. It doesn't go well, teens have terrible judgement and take stupid risks to prove a point. That bonding with someone you love is the only thing I could argue as being somewhat squiffy on the off-chance it suggests a girl or woman can only find happiness by having a (male) significant other, but that's not what we're discussing here anyway (which again, I don't know if it is what's shown in the content or not so don't @ me! :D ). I think you are quite right, when you say about it making "us uncomfortable" neatly describing why someone might find this a disturbing or unwarranted depiction. It's a parental perspective, but you don't have to be a parent to have it, nor do you have to have that perspective even if you are a parent. Also, and this is not aimed at QT, just a general rule of thumb: it's not smart to dismiss anyone's perspective out of hand if you don't have said perspective. Perhaps have a think about why someone arrives at that conclusion instead.

Whether or not this the right way to depict an adolescent's struggle is certainly debateable, as the length of thread shows. Of course, it's not the only way but they chose to show it like this. So are they trying to connect with their teen girl audience and what is it they are saying to said teen girl audience, of which my own daughter is a part? I had lots more questions to mull over, but I'm editing an already long post down (!) and that one is the most important one for me. Whether they should or should not show a thing isn't the point, more what are they saying in the first place?

So I still have to finalise some thinking on this. Without playing the content myself of course, it's a little harder to make an actual critique, so I'm still very much on the periphery with the broad strokes from what the rest of you are saying. In QT_Melon's theory, which I think is most likely (indeed the first two concepts are the conclusions I arrived at last night, though I wondered if I was being generous or not) and certainly how I'd present this to my daughter should this raid come up, I don't think I have a problem with it per se, but the execution is clearly important. A part of me wonders if this hasn't been presented in a clear-cut manner so as to leave some worrisome doubt over the intention of the content and this is perhaps our real issue? If this is the case, then I would echo OP's sentiments to SE to have a care when implementing content like this - leave no room for doubt over your intentions when presenting a potentially thorny bit of content. Consider many teen girls, particularly today with social media, have anxiety and stress over body image and their place in the world - indeed my own daughter has already, thankfully, voiced her heart-felt concerns over simply being a girl with these problems and that's why we talk very openly and honestly about things like this, even if I know I'm not privy to everything she thinks; the fears and hopes of teens are great for discussion but you must be concise and thoughtful in how you depict them.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Thancred and Urianger will be leaving The First, so that means she's going to have to grow up at some point. This is why I felt the choice was fair for Ryne to be Shiva, each phase is showing a psyche of womanhood. I don't think it would have carried over symbolically if it were someone else. It makes us uncomfortable because we eventually have to see her as a woman, and not a child to protect. We're not ready for it literally, and figuratively I suppose. Phase 1 playing at an adult, 2 overwhelmed at becoming one, Phase 3 (Savage) eventually bonding with someone you love.

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This ^

This so much.

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Originally Posted by Astrapls

Apologies, the term I was looking for is hebephilia. Even if she was 15 or 16, it's still gross and weird.

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Why is it gross and weird for adolescents who have gone through puberty to show sexual features?

Regardless, the scene has nothing to do with our character having sexual attraction toward her, so you can feel gross and weird about something you think it implies, but it still has nothing to do with the scene itself.

Seriously, some people here don't get it : sexualisation of male and women have never been the same for the simple reason that women and men don't have the same feelings about what is attractive.

Male clothings ARE sexualised but men and women references, again, are not the same. When for men, what is attractive is the shape of breast, hips, waist and legs, for most women, "manly" is not really showing muscles but to emit a classy or strong vibe (thought women don't ignore shape but not the same way).

You can't compare what works with different feelings and instictive rules. If you don't understand that, you will never get it. It is not education, it as - a lot - instinct too.

Hien, considering women tastes is really sexualized, and a lot. Watch... the Lord of the Ring : how do you explain Aragorn was considered as so sexy by a lot of women? Because of some skin? Or because of the "vibe"?

If you consider gays or lesbians couples, you will see what I mean. Gays will not show themselves especially different to please (most of time, you can't even guess they are gay). But lesbian, really often, you will see one who rather dress like a man and the other who is really girly (and it's not rare to see both being really girly).

Your occidental -I should say american- current taboos and politically correct are completly picking up.

And far from that, tribes who live half naked don't consider body as sexualised because of a few skin.

Let's talk back about FFXIV : it is full of antique and mytholody references where the shape of body is glorified as the expression of the beauty and the dangers of the Nature. They will always draw with theses references in mind.

And honestly, in my experience of life, if you imagine teenagers don't think about sex... you make yourself a lot of illusions. It is undestandable to feel uncomfortable as parent but... the reality is when comes the puberty, a lot of teenagers think about sex. You feel comfortable with it, as parent, or not. You should better accept that and take this reality as a parent rather than considering bare skin as a taboo. You make things more diffult for them than you helps them, as you believe.

If you become able to talk with them, about sex, with some step back and... clear and fair mind, you will help them far far more. More you have taboos, worst it is for them.

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Originally Posted by linay

Why is it gross and weird for adolescents who have gone through puberty to show sexual features?

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Because a girl maturing into a woman is shameful and something to be hidden, of course.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Because a girl maturing into a woman is shameful and something to be hidden, of course.

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yikes. 2real2fast.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I'm sorry, but in terms of puberty, it pretty much ends around 15-17 years of age for women. We just mature faster physically. Mental maturity is a different matter and that's around 25 according to studies regarding our brains.

But in terms of video game characters, this gets a little more ridiculous to argue about given the limitations of the assets they're producing. Meaning the time they're working on the game, they're not gonna update her 3D model to show growth very well. I mean if anything I can see some kind of time shennanigans pop up and at some point if we end up meeting Ryne again in the future she would have fully grown. As it stands now I'm not sure why the mental exercise over a few years here or there for a fictional teen on the brink of womanhood.

I don't find the scene sexually exploiting her, but rather her coming of age. Thancred and Urianger will be leaving The First, so that means she's going to have to grow up at some point. This is why I felt the choice was fair for Ryne to be Shiva, each phase is showing a psyche of womanhood. I don't think it would have carried over symbolically if it were someone else. It makes us uncomfortable because we eventually have to see her as a woman, and not a child to protect. We're not ready for it literally, and figuratively I suppose. Phase 1 playing at an adult, 2 overwhelmed at becoming one, Phase 3 (Savage) eventually bonding with someone you love.

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I absolutely love that comparison. The themes of growth and advancement, of overcoming new challenges, of modifying current relationships as the character progresses into adulthood is fairly represented in literature, movies etc. so I can see where you're going with that. A popular children's book series for example, Harry Potter, has him develop through several stages of his life with each subsequent book dealing with more complex issues. What's common is the battle with maturity, and with that, among other things, is the understanding and development of their own sexuality, and the new relationships that they'll form to accommodate that. When Ryne transformed into Shiva, It was almost like losing control to the uncertainty of adulthood that represents her future. I'm not too sure myself, but I do find what you said fascinating.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

yikes. 2real2fast.

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I guess I should've added /sarcasm. Only puritanical weirdos get triggered over teenagers showing skin. Like the people policing bra straps in American schools.

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Originally Posted by Korten

Yet another form of entertainment? I'm sorry did politics destroy movies, art, books, and comics or any other numbers of mediums? Oh wait, they're all doing just fine.

But man, FFXIV really pushing politics on it's playerbase. You know? Saying imperialism is bad, that the rich should help the poor and so on. They should really just work to make their game say absolutely nothing to coddle people who don't want their beliefs ever challenged.

Also it's not fucking censorship. Or what did you consider the Yakuza dev's who took out a transphobic side quest out of their game of their own volition as censorship? Why is it that people always use "censorship" as a defense for gross shit. Just saw that recently with Persona 5 where the English translators removed a homophobic joke from the game and people were fuming.

But going back to Mobius FF... It's funny that people get so angry when a guy shows too much skin but then will defend female characters that do so the same with so much effort.

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The game actually says nothing of the sort. It gives examples of some people reaching such conclusions (but also, for example, those in charge of the reconstruction effort rejecting the notion of redistributionist schemes), but the developers are very much of the view that it is for the player to decide whether how they will view such perspectives. Those presented are purely in-game perspectives of NPCs.

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Originally Posted by heiligeharmonie

It’s not too late to sever the visual connection, so I do hope you will consider altering Eden Shiva’s models to use Ysayle’s head.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

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No. I think you're forgetting this is a different world they are in. It's why Ramuh, Ifrit and Garuda look different. So hence, Shiva will as well even if they didn't use Ryne.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I guess I should've added /sarcasm. Only puritanical weirdos get triggered over teenagers showing skin. Like the people policing bra straps in American schools.

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dw, I took it with salt and sarcasm. Had a good laugh too. :D

Sexuality wouldn't be such a taboo subject if we weren't so prudish as a society. It's always so strange to me the Western Civs went through entire eras of free-love and body expression only to have a weird reversion back into Puritanic pearl-clutching.

How can we be inundated every single day with articles screeching that "women aren't sexual objects", but at the merest hint of a low neckline, women claim an entire situation automatically becomes sexually charged? Seems a bit irrational to me.

Don't get me started on the utterly ridiculous idea that children are children and MUST be kept as children until that magical day they turn 18 years old and automatically they are expected to be an adult and understand complex mature topics like financial independence, social decorum, and sexuality. People don't make sense.

I mean whether the devs intended it or not. I kinda feel they did since part of the ongoing storyline is Ryne becoming her own person. I find it ironic though that people are more worried about outfits than the fact if she's really that underage - who is going to take care of her when Thancred and Urianger are gone?

This is probably one of the more tasteful instances of exploring that as an underlying concept. I will try to use spoiler tags for the MSQ as well. Apologies if I come off redundant

Shiva's outfit in E8 is the princess type. Hydaelyn's second outfit is the Goddess type.

I feel Ryne is playing princess looking at Shiva's outfit, but ironically coinciding with the storyline

Where it's revealed Venat basically/essentially became Hydaelyn

so not only turning into Hydaelyn makes sense since she's essentially the Oracle. Why be a princess, when you can be a Goddess?

For that matter looking at the Ancient society (Aumorot is a CITY, Ascians are a by product of being tempered by Zodiark - so it's not their race names but I digress) everyone was conformists in that they all wore robes and masks in the storyline. It's kinda interesting that Venat becoming Hydaelyn I wouldn't be surprised if Ryne's version is actually quite close V-Neck plunge and all though it actually matches our primal's Shiva outfit with the plunge and semi transparent webbing. There's something freeing about being that form when you're confined to robes

Then you have the Savage form with Ryne being the actual Shiva and Hraesvelgr their story of union is probably romanticized in Ryne's eyes. This is real LOVE. In Heavensward lore she literally asked to be devoured so their souls would combine - (makes me wonder as an aside if Dragons can combine souls - what WAS Hydaelyn's pact with Midgarsormr about and not just protection of another area...but I digress again lol)

It's always interesting in folklore that princesses need to be saved from Dragons, dragons always guarding the princess. They're objects/blockades to "getting the girl". Also as parents we kinda "dread the day" of marriage or our girls having a union with another person. (male or female - though I can't say this about ALL types of sexuality). Shiva's union was pretty much on her own terms strange as it was to ask to be devoured for their souls to be entwined.

On other notes about the clothing thing. I am not gonna lie about being a bit bothered by the clothing in general but Ryne's also wearing a skirt fighting with daggers so lol. But on a societal level I'm also annoyed that we make women feel shame about our dimorphism which is a very confusing message about growing up. Granted there's reason for shame as we don't want our kids in puberty running around naked, however we have mammaries. Why are we made to feel so ashamed by their presence so much? That what we wear is our fault that it sends a sexual message?

If Ryne was going around trying to do alot of fanservice moves I'd get it. But for what I could see while I was trying to fend for my life - she wasn't.

And here I went into the fight thinking "This is gonna backfire of Ryne SO badly".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lauront

The game actually says nothing of the sort. It gives examples of some people reaching such conclusions (but also, for example, those in charge of the reconstruction effort rejecting the notion of redistributionist schemes), but the developers are very much of the view that it is for the player to decide whether how they will view such perspectives. Those presented are purely in-game perspectives of NPCs.

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Yeah no... Stormblood never paints Imperialism/Colonialism in ANY positive light. And the idea that it leaves it up to the player is completely ignoring the text. When your dealing with the refugee situation in Ul'dah it doesn't "both sides" the situation and clearly makes you sympathize with their plight and pushes the player in the story to find a solution that will benefit everyone. It paints anyone who tries to exploit them or remove them in a bad light.

Here's a good article going over how Stormblood treats the topic of colonialism.

https://medium.com/@urbanfriendden/f...e-a6e65549fe31

FFXIV has a lot to say. Even something as simple as allowing Men and Women to wear tuxes and dresses in marriage is making a statement.'

Edit: In regards to the Ishgard thing, I personally haven't done any of the reconstruction efforts but you need to look at how it presents it. It's all about context. A bad person saying want to do a bad thing isn't painting it in a way as to make it ambiguous whose right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

To be fair, it was a rather baffling plot decision.

The whole thing felt rather forced just to create a thin excuse for Ryne to be Shiva. Thancred strongly objected but not really and their plan was vague at best. And of all the characters to stick in a Shiva outfit they chose Ryne.

They could have gone with a hundred different plot twists, even as far as something like unintentionally bringing Ysayle's spirit back with Edens power and having one last talk at the end ...but nope. Whatever floats their boat I guess.

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It's probably a case of story following design idea and not the other way around, as it should be, aye.
They probably had the whole Idea of a Shiva return and Hraesvaelgr interaction and needed to make it fit somehow.
I too found it somewhat forced and Ifalna certainly didn't agree with what seemed a completely unnecessary risk on Rynes part.

As for the sexualization of the female... erm it's a game targeted at teenagers. Pretty much all mass media does it because humans are a gullible species.
Sex sells.

Would the encounter be less cool w/o a revealing outfit / half naked dress phase? Not at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Korten

Yeah no... Stormblood never paints Imperialism/Colonialism in ANY positive light. And the idea that it leaves it up to the player is completely ignoring the text. When your dealing with the refugee situation in Ul'dah it doesn't "both sides" the situation and clearly makes you sympathize with their plight and pushes the player in the story to find a solution that will benefit everyone. It paints anyone who tries to exploit them or remove them in a bad light.

Here's a good article going over how Stormblood treats the topic of colonialism.

https://medium.com/@urbanfriendden/f...e-a6e65549fe31

FFXIV has a lot to say. Even something as simple as allowing Men and Women to wear tuxes and dresses in marriage is making a statement.'

Edit: In regards to the Ishgard thing, I personally haven't done any of the reconstruction efforts but you need to look at how it presents it. It's all about context. A bad person saying want to do a bad thing isn't painting it in a way as to make it ambiguous whose right.

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Apologies but this is not from the developers. It is a merely a one-sided narrative account of colonialism, a highly complex topic, written from a particular perspective/ax to grind, which goes nowhere near the level of depth that would be required to tackle that topic in terms of its real world analogue, with the latter's ups and downs. Also, the story did not paint the Griffin's and some other insurgent groups in a particularly flattering light, nevermind the attitudes of some amongst the colonised groups, and also makes a point of the fact that the situation in Doma/Ala Mhigo (and Dalmasca, I guess) were not uniform across the empire's colonised regions.

Again, whenever the devs do comment on the topic of moral judgement (itself a complex philosophical topic with many perspectives), they leave that very much up to the players, especially where more complex characters are involved - I will grant that there are things players will by and large find negative, and definitely which certain characters do, but the game is not particularly preachy about it, nor is it written in stark black and white terms for the most part. You are confusing the main character for the player - a vessel for taking the story forward which has very little in the way of choice on the topic and who has their own views. I mentioned the Ishgard thing because it is an NPC weighing up the pros and cons of a certain course of action and taking an entirely sensible approach to it, even if some might disagree with it.

So I am afraid I am just going to have to agree to disagree.