Delete Clemency and Vercure

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I can respond by saying that they are the ones that are self-centered for not allowing me to optimize my job and enjoy the role, and vice versa. It's imo a useless argument that requires to ignore the reverse perspective, no matter which side you're on.

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Then I think you need to adjust your expectations of what's realistically achievable in a pug duty. There's only so much optimisation you can expect to achieve with randoms.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

It's okay to disagree with someone. No need to call me a troll.

I think you've been in too much of an echo chamber if you consider both this and my previous thread as trolling.

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The reason why we think you're trolling at this point is because you are, once again, trying to force your own efficiency onto other players. You automatically seem to think that if non-healers use their heals, they're bad at their DPS/Tanking job. It honestly seems like you're trying to find your own echo chamber by trying to find those who agree with your mentality. Which is ironic that you're making this thread in the first place considering that in the other thread you made, you were trying to justify yourself (a healer) pulling for the tank. (Which, pulling, is not your job.) So you can pre-pull as a healer ahead of the tank, but you don't want anyone else to be doing healing? Wat.

You should just play with a pre-made party instead of pushing your agenda to random pugs. You can tell them that you are going to pre-pull ahead of the tank and tell the tank and other DPS that they aren't allowed to use any of their healing abilities. Problem solved.

Really, should just get rid of second wind and blood bath as well. Actually, even tanks should lose all of their mitigation tools. I mean, when you have Mr. Super Healer on the job no one else ever needs to self heal or avoid damage ever.

anyone else get the feeling this is titan man posting this ? xD

mayyyyyyyybe you should stop arguing with people that know more about healing, dungeons etc until you actually hit 80 with one class and do some endgame stuff. https://de.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...acter/7126149/ hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

But I like clemency ;;

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Originally Posted by Bsrking5

Actually I support the change of clemency and the out right removal of vercure. Non-healers shouldn't be stand ins for healers.

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I think SE and Yoshi were trying to be true to the classes of PLD and RDM of how they were in the console games of the past. I remember RDM in FF1 having the ability of blacka nd white magics, so they could cure and do damage. So I don't see the reason not to give RDM that ability.

As a healer main myself, I have zero issues with those skills. If the RDM wants to help or the PLD wants to heal themselves, then that less heals I have to do and more DMG I can assist with. Heck in that same line of thinking, might as well remove my damage skills since only DPS should be able to do it. /shrug

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Tell them that they can trust me to keep them alive and that they dont need to cast Clemency/Vercure (I usually try to pair that with a light hearted tone, maybe even in a joking manner so they dont get the impression that I'm trying to criticise them directly. When healing I play as scholar, so most often its something along the lines of "You dont need to use Clemency, Selene and I can keep you up - and if not we'll blame it on the fairy!").

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Originally Posted by tdb

To entertain the thought, your wording may come off as a reprimand of them doing something wrong. So perhaps instead encourage them to trust you by saying something along the lines of "I got the heals, you can focus on damage". Try to offer a positive reason for them to not use the ability rather than just telling them to stop using it. It's easier to convince someone to play a certain way if you give them all the pieces they need to arrive at the conclusion of that being the best way.

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Thanks, sounds like pretty good advice. Next time I'll try something like: "I got the healing :), you can focus on dps if you want."

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Originally Posted by YatoShishi

mayyyyyyyybe you should stop arguing with people that know more about healing, dungeons etc until you actually hit 80 with one class and do some endgame stuff. https://de.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...acter/7126149/ hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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Are.... Are you serious right now? This guy doesn't even have a single job to 80?

I just.... I can't.

If my hp is below 50% for more than 2 spell rotations (approx. 6-7 sec), I will double vercure myself on the third rotation. You lose my trust if you leave me that low that long. That being said, it's VERY RARE that any healers leave me hanging that badly, so I do rarely have to pull out the vercures…..while they're alive. lol

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Very insulting as healer if you see RDM or PLD use Clemency/Vercure when you have everything under control.

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As a WHM main I have zero insult over seeing this. I could care less if they do it.

I mean, should be be insulting to DPS if a healer starts doing DPS? Should we just remove all damage abilities from healers as well?

Vercure and Clemency are nice utility for solo playing, but are hardly of enough consequence to remove healers' relevance in group content. There's little need to get rid of those skills. If anything, I'd have SE actually sit down and either make SMN's pitiful Physick strong enough to matter for solo content (link it to Int or SOMETHING) or otherwise just outright get rid of the skill. I can't even justify keeping it on my SMNs bars, it's that useless, certainly compared to even Vercure let alone a proper healing spell.

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Originally Posted by Gofr

If my hp is below 50% for more than 2 spell rotations (approx. 6-7 sec), I will double vercure myself on the third rotation. You lose my trust if you leave me that low that long. That being said, it's VERY RARE that any healers leave me hanging that badly, so I do rarely have to pull out the vercures…..while they're alive. lol

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Exactly. Even as a Sam I use Bloodbath and Second Wind to actually ease healing a bit, but especially if I'm not getting healed. For example, was doing Cinder Ex and on phase 2, there is an aoe that strikes the DPS for like 75k unavoidable damage and it happens twice in a short amount of time. Healer was so focused on tank that he didn't heal me at all and I had to use my skills to get enough health to survive the second.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

As a healer main myself, I have zero issues with those skills. If the RDM wants to help or the PLD wants to heal themselves, then that less heals I have to do and more DMG I can assist with. Heck in that same line of thinking, might as well remove my damage skills since only DPS should be able to do it. /shrug

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I already addressed this in this thread.

Removing vercure and changing clemency would remove some of the inconsistencies SE has with job skills as well.

PLD has to make sacrifices to use clemency and you can't remove a skill because people use it poorly, you could apply that logic to so many skills in the game. You may as well ask to have jobs gutted to the point where there is only one rotation and no contextual abilities at all.

On the one hand I kinda understand how irrelevant it can make a group in casual content. I recall doing an Alphascape 2.0 with 2 PLD tanks (me being one of them) and the rest of the group was dead. We killed the thing from 22% by ourselves by sharing clemancies and either invulning or stacking defense buffs through the stacker.

On the other hand, it was freaking awesome.

For the vast majority of group content in FFXIV, the chance of you experiencing imperfect play is more likely or not. It's crazy, but in a way, when you get beyond some solo play stuff, these skills create amazing experiences that really are only possible with an environment where players of jarringly different levels of skill and experience come together, and I love that. I love feeling like we can break the game, or "cheat", or salvage a situation only possible with the presence of these actions.

Yeah, there is the potential for people to misuse it. There are also times healers who don't understand content use Rescue to unironically help you and just get you in trouble. There's also just a lot of times people don't use their tools in the right place at the right time, like people not using AOE when they should, or not using ST when they should. I think that's fine. If we take out everything in the game that people can misuse, it will become more and more sterile, something Shadowbringers has done enough of.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Neither are great to be honest...might be time for me to start looking the other way then this person posts.

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Sounds like a good plan.

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Originally Posted by Schan

Now I need to ask 2 absurdly stupid questions:
Why are you targetting those 2 skills in particular when almost every class has a form of healing?
Why do you chose to be offended over it?

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Because they're the only potent targeted healing GCD skills outside of the healer role. They will be sacrificing dps when they use it (unless RDM prepares dualcast) and can be used repeatedly. All other self healing skills are oGCD and have a cooldown. Those won't be sacrificing dps and they can't use it very often. In my experience, those RDM and PLD that use Clemency/Vercure for no good reason will continue to use them often. They wouldn't be able to do that if there was a cooldown for example.

It's also the fact that your effort to play optimally goes to waste because of the dps loss of using those abilities. When I'm doing my best to maximize my dps as healer, I'd expect to get the instance progress faster due to my efforts, not stall it even more because the RDM or PLD decide to Vercure/Clemency.

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Originally Posted by YatoShishi

mayyyyyyyybe you should stop arguing with people that know more about healing, dungeons etc until you actually hit 80 with one class and do some endgame stuff. https://de.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...acter/7126149/ hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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I'm a returner, recently started shadowbringers. I've come to hate the job system cause I'm constantly tempted to level alt jobs instead of progressing ShB, even though I'm sure I'll enjoy ShB way more. The thing is that I can't decide on which job to main :(

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Originally Posted by Centershock

The reason why we think you're trolling at this point is because you are, once again, trying to force your own efficiency onto other players. You automatically seem to think that if non-healers use their heals, they're bad at their DPS/Tanking job. It honestly seems like you're trying to find your own echo chamber by trying to find those who agree with your mentality. Which is ironic that you're making this thread in the first place considering that in the other thread you made, you were trying to justify yourself (a healer) pulling for the tank. (Which, pulling, is not your job.) So you can pre-pull as a healer ahead of the tank, but you don't want anyone else to be doing healing? Wat.

You should just play with a pre-made party instead of pushing your agenda to random pugs. You can tell them that you are going to pre-pull ahead of the tank and tell the tank and other DPS that they aren't allowed to use any of their healing abilities. Problem solved.

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Regarding my previous thread:

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Wait a second. Doesn't this thread prove that "it's not your job" argument is invalid? I could say that you shouldn't be using Clemency or Vercure because it "isn't your job" to heal, just like it isn't my job as healer to pull. Did you just get yourself into a corner argument wise or am I missing something?

You might start saying that it is PLD and RDM's job to heal because it's part of their toolkit, well what would stop me to prepull in scenario I had described in that thread? Isn't it just as rude to not trust your healer to heal you well as prepulling as healer because you don't trust the Tank's judgement? Is my reasoning flawed or are you guys actually hypocrites? (not meant offensive, genuinely wondering)

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Originally Posted by SamRF

It's also the fact that your effort to play optimally goes to waste because of the dps loss of using those abilities. When I'm doing my best to maximize my dps as healer, I'd expect to get the instance progress faster due to my efforts, not stall it even more because the RDM or PLD decide to Vercure/Clemency.

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Honestly, if you want to optimize your gameplay to the level where everyone needs to play perfectly, you're better off playing with friends. With randoms there's just so much variance in player skill that it's just poinless to complain about minor things like the occasional healing ability.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

The thing is that I can't decide on which job to main :(

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I would recommend one of the tank jobs, since clearly you want to be in charge of the run's pace and don't like others to do your job. The tank role fits that. Healers meanwhile are the ones with the most ability and expectations to adjust to what the rest of the group is doing, which seems like a poor fit to your personality.

I don't think these skills should be removed, can't tell you the amount of times when the healer bites the dust or just doesn't heal period and both these skills kept the party going for longer. No way is it efficient but neither is dead healer.

However my issues are with people who use these unnecessarily like >70% hp especially with excog or regens on them, it feels like a complete waste of MY GCDs or CDs on top of theirs which is just irritating

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Originally Posted by tdb

I would recommend one of the tank jobs, since clearly you want to be in charge of the run's pace and don't like others to do your job. The tank role fits that. Healers meanwhile are the ones with the most ability and expectations to adjust to what the rest of the group is doing, which seems like a poor fit to your personality.

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I can't tell you how many times I've decided with full certainty that I'm going to main certain job, only to end up changing my mind after a day. I think I care more about the theme and aesthetic than the playstyle, and the tank jobs sadly don't really fit with what I appreciate in that regard. However I might think otherwise in a couple of hours so who knows lol. Seriously this job system isn't any good for indecisive people like me.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

With the first thread I thought maybe he was just clueless. Combined with this thread I'm convinced he's an elaborate troll or just a narcissist who thinks everyone should stay in their lane. Except for himself of course--he can do whatever he wants in the name of "efficiency".

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I don't understand why you need to get this personal and judge me as a person based on my posts. I made this and my previous threads to discuss something, not to take a stance or something. I've got my view on the topic changed in both this thread and my previous one and have admitted so in replies (check a couple pages back) so I'm not disregarding anyone's opinion that differs from mine. Just don't reply if you're that offended by the post. Or do reply with an argument and present it in a respectful manner. Do what you want in the end not like I care too much.

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Originally Posted by Bsrking5

Actually I support the change of clemency and the out right removal of vercure. Non-healers shouldn't be stand ins for healers.

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By that logic non dps classes shouldnt be stand ins for dps classes.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

These are both very useful for self sustain in solo situations, or when the healer actually IS struggling (it happens).

You could just as easily say it's patronising when a Tank blows every single cooldown on one trash pack, or when the Healers Rescues you out of an AoE when you were planning to use your invulnerability.

In addition, they each have their unique uses. Clemency can trigger Divine Veil, and Vercure can be used to proc Dualcast when there's nothing to target.

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Reposting this because this topic seems to be descending into petsonal attacks rather than actual arguments in favour of the skills and their merits.

They're both too value to delete purely for healer pride.

If you somehow find someone using their utility on themselves insulting, then the problem is you and not the skills or players involved. Can't believe this hasn't been said more. There's no reason to remove utility just so that someone can't hurt your ego in a random duty finder.

I'd say delete raise if anything, because I can't stand it when my dead party keeps telling me to raise them. As if lol

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I'd say delete raise if anything, because I can't stand it when my dead party keeps telling me to raise them. As if lol

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If it's a healer, you're just being an ass. You lose one GCD to prevent a wipe.

when I started FFXI last year and chose my starting City as Windurst, I started as a RDM, and when I got my cure scrolls, you better believe it saved my ass.

red mages have always been about using black and white magic and healing is what red mages can do

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Originally Posted by Coatl

If you somehow find someone using their utility on themselves insulting, then the problem is you and not the skills or players involved. Can't believe this hasn't been said more. There's no reason to remove utility just so that someone can't hurt your ego in a random duty finder.

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I wish I didn't say that tbh lol (insulting), could have easily used different wording. People tend to focus on that part and it's inconsequential to my main arguments.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

If it's a healer, you're just being an ass. You lose one GCD to prevent a wipe.

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That's what I'm saying! Like why do I need to stop doing dps just because everyone decides to die! Not even my fault! AS IF I'm gonna raise.

They should just delete raise from dps classes, because if the party knows there is nobody but the healers to raise them when they die, they will play better.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

At first I kind of liked those abilities when leveling both PLD and RDM, but now have come to hate them when leveling healers

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Your argument already held little to no weight, but this right here rips itself apart. Those who still play Paladin and Red Mage enjoy having these abilities. If I feel in danger in either job, I am beyond glad I have the option to use them. Countless times I've saved a pug run from a wipe on PLD in a boss fight when healer stood in AoEs. Same again on RDM back up curing or taking care of the rez mess (or both). In higher tier content, same theory still applies; not everyone goes for "omg we must shave off 5 seconds on our run for world record."

Also, SE already tried the 'cureless' Paladin route in XIV, it led to us getting clemency. Both of these jobs are already shadows of their former incarnations, anymore and you have generic mage and generic tank.

Edit: Will also point out, I main healing these days too, I'd rather someone is over-cured than dead.

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Originally Posted by Bsrking5

Actually I support the change of clemency and the out right removal of vercure. Non-healers shouldn't be stand ins for healers.

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Then summoners can lose their raise, and healers can lose their dps spells. Non dps shouldnt be dpsing! See, I can post dumb stuff too!!!

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Originally Posted by Sho86

Your argument already held little to no weight, but this right here rips itself apart. Those who still play Paladin and Red Mage enjoy having these abilities. If I feel in danger in either job, I am beyond glad I have the option to use them. Countless times I've saved a pug run from a wipe on PLD in a boss fight when healer stood in AoEs. Same again on RDM back up curing or taking care of the rez mess (or both). In higher tier content, same theory still applies; not everyone goes for "omg we must shave off 5 seconds on our run for world record."

Also, SE already tried the 'cureless' Paladin route in XIV, it led to us getting clemency. Both of these jobs are already shadows of their former incarnations, anymore and you have generic mage and generic tank.

Edit: Will also point out, I main healing these days too, I'd rather someone is over-cured than dead.

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Yeah I meant that I liked those abilities in solo content. Your point still stands however. I encountered 1 instance as Paladin in which healer died and it felt pretty damn epic to keep party alive with your Clemency, have encountered the same with RDM. Tbh I'm starting to change my mind on this topic now that I'm recalling those moments xD.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I wish I didn't say that tbh lol (insulting), could have easily used different wording. People tend to focus on that part and it's inconsequential to my main arguments.

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That's fair, point taken. But then the answer you'll get the most is that while those extra buttons aren't essential to playing your job properly, they are pretty nice to have and add that extra bit of flavor to a class. Personally I wish we had more stuff like that, not less.

I never heal for the healer unless they died and usually to try and keep the tank up until they recover. I will use my vercure to heal myself though. I've died too many times waiting to be topped off with many raid wide aoe's incoming and the healer is sitting their dpsing to only see members of the party die.

Oh wait now let me raise the dead I could have kept from dying whoa is me but Glare, Malefic and Broil were more important at the time.

I do raise as much as I can however and personally get very frustrated with an RDM in party or a Summoner for that matter who do nothing to help raise the dead.

I'd like to have my Dualcast proc ready at the end of a phase change and/or downtime.

Thanks.

I've had PLDs clemming themselves right as I launch Essential Dignity. It's really ok with me because I can be slow and there is also the anxiety that comes with low health - no one likes being near death even for a second. It's also math. If you're at say, 30% HP then you know you're gonna die in the next 2 or 3 GCDs unless you get a heal. That is exactly why my minimum threshold is 50%.