Release a 16 person 4 hour long dungeon

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Originally Posted by Levian

Been off the forum for a couple of days, but this is a good point. However, if they want to appease the hardcore crowd, they're going to have to use some resources on hardcore content. Whether it's in the form of 4 hour raids, a multitude of 24-hour spawn HNMs with 3 hour windows that take more than 10 minutes to kill, or some sort of Sky type 36 man content. A large amount of 30 minute instance level dungeons with hard modes just isn't going to cut it.

Whether or not you're interested in the content, it'll have to exist if SE wants to appeal to everyone. Personally I'm not interested in 30 minute dungeons with speed runs and hard modes. WoW gave me my fill of those and then some. But you won't catch me saying they shouldn't add them, because I understand they're something of a necessity for the casual crowd. Same thing goes for the hardcore content that'll never appeal to me. HNMs that spawn every 21-24 hours? You couldn't pay me to do that again. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't throw a few in there for the people that would like camping them.

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I couldn't agree more here.

Howdy!

While I already mentioned in a separate thread that we will be seeing alliance based content in the future, I also checked up on whether there would be longer dungeons. Yoshi-P told me that there are indeed plans for 2 hour long dungeons :) Hope you all are looking forward to them!

Yay! Now I'll be praying that they aren't 50 minute speed runs.

We definitely need 16 player content. Or content that scales with the number of people in your party. The game just isn't fun if there's only 14 people online in your linkshell and 8 of them already formed a party. Something needs doing to fix issues like that.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

We definitely need 16 player content. Or content that scales with the number of people in your party. The game just isn't fun if there's only 14 people online in your linkshell and 8 of them already formed a party. Something needs doing to fix issues like that.

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That was pretty much answered in the 8 man content thread, which Camate linked to. Camate also just referenced Alliance based content in the future, keep on keepin on, you're almost there.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

That was pretty much answered in the 8 man content thread, which Camate linked to. Camate also just referenced Alliance based content in the future, keep on keepin on, you're almost there.

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Let me explain to you how a forum works.

First, you need a set of members.
These members then post topics of discussion.
Other members then respond to these topics posting their opinions.
These opinions usually come in the form of support or opposition towards the original topic.
These opinions also tend to include reasons why they support such topics.

Get it?

Okay, thanks, goodbye.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Howdy!

While I already mentioned in a separate thread that we will be seeing alliance based content in the future, I also checked up on whether there would be longer dungeons. Yoshi-P told me that there are indeed plans for 2 hour long dungeons :) Hope you all are looking forward to them!

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This is great, and personally I am fine with having instanced content being limited to 2 hours. However, I hope that stuff like Crystal Tower will not be a 2 hour instance, and instead will be broken up into floors at least so the whole thing takes more than is possible in a single sitting to progress through.

A 2 hour crystal tower would be very disappointing, so would a crystal tower that only had 8 person group content and no alliance section.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

This is great, and personally I am fine with having instanced content being limited to 2 hours. However, I hope that stuff like Crystal Tower will not be a 2 hour instance, and instead will be broken up into floors at least so the whole thing takes more than is possible in a single sitting to progress through.

A 2 hour crystal tower would be very disappointing, so would a crystal tower that only had 8 person group content and no alliance section.

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maybe 2 hours per floor

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Let me explain to you how a forum works.

First, you need a set of members.
These members then post topics of discussion.
Other members then respond to these topics posting their opinions.
These opinions usually come in the form of support or opposition towards the original topic.
These opinions also tend to include reasons why they support such topics.

Get it?

Okay, thanks, goodbye.

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He said in a post (right below one he comments on) that SE needs to fix the content to use more than 8, they already are and it was linked and directly mentioned in said post. I wasn't even rude about stuff like you were. kthxbai urself.

I hope the drop rates are even worse I managed to get some gear from the new raids, I'm outraged.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

He said in a post (right below one he comments on) that SE needs to fix the content to use more than 8, they already are and it was linked and directly mentioned in said post. I wasn't even rude about stuff like you were. kthxbai urself.

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That doesn't entirely fix it.

It's no good lowering max dungeon requirement from 8 to 4 two months after the patch when everyone is more concerned about new content. It should be scalable right from the start. 4-8 isn't even scalable content. It's the same dungeon. Beating the new dungeons with 4 people is probably impossible. The difficulty should scale down so that beating it with 4 is no more difficult than beating it with 8. And that should be in right from the patch date, with each new content. That's what I call fixing.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

That doesn't entirely fix it.

It's no good lowering max dungeon requirement from 8 to 4 two months after the patch when everyone is more concerned about new content. It should be scalable right from the start. 4-8 isn't even scalable content. It's the same dungeon. Beating the new dungeons with 4 people is probably impossible. The difficulty should scale down so that beating it with 4 is no more difficult than beating it with 8. And that should be in right from the patch date, with each new content. That's what I call fixing.

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No thanks. That would be impossible to balance fairly. I am all for them removing the RESTRICTION, but releasing 4 person versions of the current content with the same drops is not okay with me. I think this sounds like a horrible idea personally.

The incoming stuff (not this dungeon but things in the future) will be for groups of MORE THAN 8.... how does this not help your group of 14 that you referenced? how did we get onto lower dungeon reqs?

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Originally Posted by Xenor

That doesn't entirely fix it.

It's no good lowering max dungeon requirement from 8 to 4 two months after the patch when everyone is more concerned about new content. It should be scalable right from the start. 4-8 isn't even scalable content. It's the same dungeon. Beating the new dungeons with 4 people is probably impossible. The difficulty should scale down so that beating it with 4 is no more difficult than beating it with 8. And that should be in right from the patch date, with each new content. That's what I call fixing.

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Exping or getting AF with 4 people probably is possible though. There have been a lot of complaints about putting AF in instances that need 8 people to enter. It was fine when no one had AF, but by 1.22 people needing the instances for AF will be much less common.

I am glad to hear there will be alliances and longer instances.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Yay! Now I'll be praying that they aren't 50 minute speed runs.

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but they may come up with 45 min speed run instead :P

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Originally Posted by Camate

Howdy!

While I already mentioned in a separate thread that we will be seeing alliance based content in the future, I also checked up on whether there would be longer dungeons. Yoshi-P told me that there are indeed plans for 2 hour long dungeons :) Hope you all are looking forward to them!

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Best news all week.

Thanks Mushy.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Howdy!

While I already mentioned in a separate thread that we will be seeing alliance based content in the future, I also checked up on whether there would be longer dungeons. Yoshi-P told me that there are indeed plans for 2 hour long dungeons :) Hope you all are looking forward to them!

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I am looking forward to people bitching about them being tedious and time consuming...
"Yoshi P is confusing tedious with difficult" <- this phrase i have seen thrown in threads by idiots already. i have no doubt will see em more in the future :)

I myself cant wait for them. BRING IT!

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Originally Posted by YuriSan

I am looking forward to people bitching about them being tedious and time consuming...
"Yoshi P is confusing tedious with difficult" <- this phrase i have seen thrown in threads by idiots already. i have no doubt will see em more in the future :)

I myself cant wait for them. BRING IT!

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Truth to be told, YuriSan, it is VERY easy to confuse tedious with difficult. Hell an extremely difficult stage in a game could last only 30 seconds! Crap, it could last all of THREE seconds (have you played Half-minute Hero?)
If content takes four hours to complete but does not poses an actual challenge, and it is merely long/grindy then it is certainly not something that the majority will enjoy. There is a large difference between a content that takes a month to finish because you need to wait 36 hours between each spawn of an NM to have a random chance of a rare item and a content that takes a month to finish because you wipe at the boss 2~6 times a day for 30 days in a row because it requires flawless planning and execution. One is hard, the other is tedious.

That said, content that offers a very long experience (WITH STORY TO GO ALONG, I cannot forgive long-winded content with no story) with moderate difficulty, as long as it isn't a normal thing but something done only once in a while, is actually pretty okay in my book.

I'm all for a dungeon with a 2hour caps if we can see something like split paths and challenging content, and ally content is a must for the game to continue imho.

The relationship between tedium and difficulty (as referenced many times on this forum) is a precarious one.

Essentially, I see it like this: Time can be a form of difficulty... but is not synonymous with it

For instance: Lay flat on your back and lift your feet six inches off the ground... easy!!!

Next: Hold that position for 4 hours

It doesn't require any "skill"
It would indeed be tedious, but the one thing that makes tedium difficult... the one thing people have yet to reference at all... the one word that defines why that is hard....
Endurance
An endurance test can indeed be difficult. The problem is... in the spirit of balance, all difficulty cannot rely on endurance testing. If it is in game.. I'd like to see it used sparingly, and not overdone on every piece of content
If there were a 16 hour fight... it would be difficult... strictly based on the time it took.
We are definitely in an "Instant Gratification" society
and also... Many people would prefer a video game not be an endurance test
I can definitely see both sides
But try to avoid saying tedious isn't difficulty.. when, in fact, it is... just not the difficulty we want to see.

While i see why people are playing the "don't make it tedious" argument it's almost an impossible feat in a game that is played for years on end. Everything becomes tedious after awhile, first time dynamis was a blast while the last time I did the old dynamis I hated every second of it. This game is and will sadly fall under the same problem (ie Ifrit is a snooze now for most people). Best we can hope for is content that is at the very least a challenge at the start and takes a bit of time before we can learn all the tricks to best farm a dungeon.

How about dungeons that can be continued later? I wouldn't mind 4h dungeons then. Let's say you stop half way because pple need to leave and the next day you re-enter with the same group, the game will put you back to where you left off. As long as you re-enter within 48h that is or something like that. Cuz seriously 4h straight is overkill. Even 2h is a lot for casuals.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

We definitely need 16 player content.

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I cant even get to 8/8 party content :i no moogle, no new dungeons. I never beated batraal.
This is another thing out of my reach. Wish more EU players on server, so I can play at same time.

Us play when I sleep -_- zzZzZzZz

I'm sorry you don't have anyone to play with, but that shouldn't effect the rest of us that desperately want and need content designed for larger groups. With the 8 man cut off my LS often has to rotations just to give everyone a chance to at least play that night.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Howdy!

While I already mentioned in a separate thread that we will be seeing alliance based content in the future, I also checked up on whether there would be longer dungeons. Yoshi-P told me that there are indeed plans for 2 hour long dungeons :) Hope you all are looking forward to them!

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings!

In 1.22 we are actually planning to lower the required number of participants for Cutter's Cry and Aurum Vale.

Also, for those of you who are curious as to whether alliances will be added in 2.0, you will be happy to know that we will be adding the ability to form alliances as well as content to go along with it!

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yay a mod replied to my thread (/dance) Though I hope for this before 2.0, is there any word on the dungeons design? obviously people do not want speed runs. So if there is going to be a time limit(wishing 2.0 got rid of those) will it be 2hour dungeon where you are having to kill tough enemies and it takes nearly all of that 2 hours to complete, instead of getting to the boss in 5 minutes, which your currently can do in any of the dungeons. Getting to the boss with 5minutes left means you aren't going to have time to beat him unless you kickbutt.

Hell just get rid of timers by 2.0 please unless there is a reason for the dungeon to be timed for the story or what have you. I know instances take up server resources but come on if you guys are redoing the client/server in 2.0 give this major consideration we dont want time limits on dungeons, and I say we because I speak for everyone I have ever seen play this game

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Originally Posted by Camate

Howdy!

While I already mentioned in a separate thread that we will be seeing alliance based content in the future, I also checked up on whether there would be longer dungeons. Yoshi-P told me that there are indeed plans for 2 hour long dungeons :) Hope you all are looking forward to them!

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Good, good. Now go find info on how long the Crystal Tower is supposed to be :o

You know, the main reason instanced dungeons are timed are so that no single group of players hijacks the dungeon for themselves.
There are only so many instances that the server can handle due to memory issues (look at one of Yoshi's posts in Rein's translation thread, no matter how good they make the servers there WILL be a limit), and if the dungeon is timeless, at some point in time some obstinate players will just stick to the goddamn dungeon until they're done with it, or otherwise a group of usual forumgoers decides that it'd be a great thing to lock everyone out of said instance by occupying all of it's slots.
So there are essentially time limits so that people WILL be booted out of them to give others a chance.

i would have liked confirmation on places that are longer than 2 hours, but confirmation on 2 hours is more than the confirmation of just 1 hour we had previously, SO I AM HAPPY.

Ya kinda sucks seeing a lot of our LS members wanting to do an event.. and always an odd number too.. so people have to sit out and wait like 2-3 turns to have a chance. lol sucks

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Originally Posted by Skies

You know, the main reason instanced dungeons are timed are so that no single group of players hijacks the dungeon for themselves.
There are only so many instances that the server can handle due to memory issues (look at one of Yoshi's posts in Rein's translation thread, no matter how good they make the servers there WILL be a limit), and if the dungeon is timeless, at some point in time some obstinate players will just stick to the goddamn dungeon until they're done with it, or otherwise a group of usual forumgoers decides that it'd be a great thing to lock everyone out of said instance by occupying all of it's slots.
So there are essentially time limits so that people WILL be booted out of them to give others a chance.

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# of instances is only limited by their horrible servers. 2.0 changes this and so your thoughts on instance hogs will be mute. This is also not the main reason dungeons are timed. They are centered around the Time Attack principal and players are rewarded for completing it speedily. That is how SE intended them to be.

There was a dev post or yoshi post along the lines of "dungeons are timed because of limited number of groups that can be inside". It also said nothing about the timer was mainly for speed run content. Speed runs could be achieved without the timer actively ready to kick you out in an hour. I'll dig up the post in the morning before I start my day if anyone is interested.

I know what the devs said about it and that's why I said:

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# of instances is only limited by their horrible servers.

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they are directly related. But MMO companies don't design instances around the instance cap. that is just a by-product of them having sh*tty servers atm. The instances are still going to be timed in 2.0 with upgraded servers when 100 parties can go in at the same time.

why?

because there are challenges to be designed around a time table.

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Originally Posted by Richard_BG

I know what the devs said about it and that's why I said:



they are directly related. But MMO companies don't design instances around the instance cap. that is just a by-product of them having sh*tty servers atm. The instances are still going to be timed in 2.0 with upgraded servers when 100 parties can go in at the same time.

why?

because there are challenges to be designed around a time table.

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I kinda doubt this to be true.

There are speed run criteria, because there is a timer. There is not a timer, because there is the opportunity to add speed runs.

They have the mechanics to make individual encounters timed, for environmental hazards where you want to minimize your time, and other ways to both reward and require groups to do certain things faster. They do not need "speed runs" and timers to achieve the same effect as what you call "time attack principle".

They could achieve the same challenge in a much more enjoyable format than a 20 minute+ speed run through the entire dungeon itself. Hopefully in 2.0 they will do that, they explained why they just can't do that right now.

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Originally Posted by Richard_BG

# of instances is only limited by their horrible servers. 2.0 changes this and so your thoughts on instance hogs will be mute. This is also not the main reason dungeons are timed. They are centered around the Time Attack principal and players are rewarded for completing it speedily. That is how SE intended them to be.

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While I know they are in fact upgrading the servers and underlying framework in 2.0, I'm really tired of people throwing out 2.0 as some kind of magic bullet for every single problem this game has. We need to make sure the devs are aware of these issues and actively working on them instead of relying on "It'll probably be fixed....eventually...in 2.0...."

As it stands, "2.0" has become FFXIV's version of "PS2 limitations."

I hope you're being sarcastic, Dreamer. A NEW ENGINE and NEW SERVERS for 2.0's RELEASE = Upgrade to everything.

PS2 Limitations wasn't an excuse, do you know when the PS2 was released? 2000/2001 era. Do you know how technologically advanced it was? Not very, your Ipod has more Ram than a PS2. Do you know why there was only really 2 MMOs on the PS2? It's not that viable of a system to maintain a long term MMORPG. The devs know there's problems and are working on them for 2.0's release, why? because that's when we'll have a new client which means it would be pointless to dedicated so much to version 1.x that will be 100x better in version 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

While I know they are in fact upgrading the servers and underlying framework in 2.0, I'm really tired of people throwing out 2.0 as some kind of magic bullet for every single problem this game has. We need to make sure the devs are aware of these issues and actively working on them instead of relying on "It'll probably be fixed....eventually...in 2.0...."

As it stands, "2.0" has become FFXIV's version of "PS2 limitations."

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....Clearly, you did not read everything into FFXIV 2.0, it means we will get it in 2.0 when it comes out. IT doesn't mean 'maybe in 2.0'.

They are developing 2.0 along the side of current FFXIV that we have. IF they can't do it in FFXIV, they will most certainly do it in 2.0. They even explained why it somethings just can't be done in 2.0.

So whenthey said it'll be in 2.0, it will be in 2.0. It's that simple.

I mean, seriously. I had trouble wondering if you were serious or just being sarcastic. If you're sarcastic. Great.

If you're serious though, then you deserve a good old fashioned facepalm.