[Spoilers] Why Zenos is the most important character moving forward

I've found Zenos to be one of the least interesting characters so far. He has no depth, as much as they've put him in the middle of things. He feels very "generic Final Fantasy villain" to me.

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Originally Posted by Edax

You misunderstand, the Edax Test is a meant to be a measure of the writing. Perhaps it would be better if I edit my signature even through this results in me committing a double negative.
"Can the Antagonist progress the story if they destroy the Protagonist? If the Antagonist cannot, then they are not well written." The Alien in Alien is barely written as it remains largely an unknown, but it is not necessarily a bad antagonist, just not a well written one. The Alien in Alien is appropriate for a horror movie, but what makes Ash so great is that Ash is a well written antagonist. And we know full well what would happen if Ash, and by extension The Company had won because it was a detailed part of the story.

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To be specific, the difference seems to be that the Edax Test is meant to be applied to individual pieces of work, to measure that specific work's quality of writing.

Whereas the Bechdel Test is meant to be applied to trends among multiple works, and is irrelevant when applied to singular works.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

A philanthropist giving money to someone can be seen by some as a selfless act, but you have to take into account who is receiving that money and what they do with it. A philanthropist giving money to a somnus addict is actively helping destroy a life quite likely for their own amusement. Not so selfless anymore. Just look at how "selfless" Teleji Adeleji was.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

A philanthropist he was however. He handed out money to the needy, a selfless act by your own definition, so that they could rebel against the people they hated who slighted them, who held them back, who refused to help them, who refused to help their homeland... and he wanted gone for different reasons. He was all about helping those less fortunate.

Same thing with a somnus addict. You give them money they get more somnus, it takes intervention to save them from their addiction, which would be a selfless act. Feeding their addiction to watch them self destruct is not.

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I think you're confusing what a philanthropist is with something that a philanthropist might do.

A philanthropist - literally "lover of mankind" - would by definition be giving money or assistance to others out of good intentions and genuine concern. Nanamo is a much better example of the mindset that the label implies.

Teledji Adeledji is acting to give the illusion that he is a philanthropist, a good person who is concerned for the wellbeing of refugees and the poor - when it's all just a front and he is actually doing it to further his own selfish plans.

It's not the act, it's the intention behind it.

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Originally Posted by Edax

The reason we can argue until we're blue in the face is because Zenos is not well written.

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Actually, the reason we can argue until we're blue in the face is because what we're arguing about is SUBJECTIVE, not OBJECTIVE. Different people have different ideas about what constitutes good writing. As evidenced by this very thread, some find Zenos to be a very compelling character. You and I do not; we care about the story and are worried that it will be lessened by setting the guy up to be the primary antagonist - but that does not mean that they are WRONG, or that you and I are RIGHT. The Edax Test, no matter how you edit and re-edit its text, is fundamentally nothing more than an expression of your personal opinion, and one I believe to be unhealthily wrapped up around a specific instance. Perhaps you'd change your mind about the test if you found the right story to use as a counter-example, or perhaps not. Regardless, your test is applicable to you and you alone. Others may agree with it, but that is purely a matter of their opinions meshing with yours, and not indicative of any kind of fundamental truthfulness of the test. The Bechdel Test, for its part, is purely objective. Any two people reading a work will give you the same answer as to whether it passes or fails (barring weird fringe cases, like having one of the women be a hallucination by the other, or something). They may disagree on what the results of that test MEAN, but the test itself is entirely divorced of personal opinion.

The supporting examples you've provided also seem to be trending toward the questionable assertion that "well written" is equivalent to knowing so much about the character that we can accurately predict what they will do upon achieving their goals. Readers don't always have that kind of omniscient viewpoint, nor is it a requirement for a work of literature - or the antagonist within it - to be well written. Very compelling antagonists can be developed, for instance, by knowing only what the protagonist knows about them (which, of course, is the general rule in stories told in the first-person). The protagonist could be biased, or outright incorrect in what they know, or they might not know the antagonist well at all. In such a situation the reader, too, will be biased or incorrect about what the antagonist would do if they destroyed the protagonist. It's not the author's obligation to tell the reader what the villain had for breakfast, nor does failing to do so lessen the quality of the character.

You could argue that early in an antagonist's development, that character is not well-written, but as the character develops it BECOMES well-written - but I feel this is basically just redefining the term to support your case. It may be irrelevant in Zeno's case, as the writers SEEM to have already laid all of his cards on the table (I would argue that there is room for further character development, myself), but when stated as a general rule for all works of literature, it becomes tougher to swallow.

I really hope we put a final end to him at the end of the Shadowbringers patches. Hoping for a well written villain on part with Emet-Selch in the next expac.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Actually, the reason we can argue until we're blue in the face is because what we're arguing about is SUBJECTIVE, not OBJECTIVE. Different people have different ideas about what constitutes good writing. As evidenced by this very thread, some find Zenos to be a very compelling character. You and I do not; we care about the story and are worried that it will be lessened by setting the guy up to be the primary antagonist - but that does not mean that they are WRONG, or that you and I are RIGHT. The Edax Test, no matter how you edit and re-edit its text, is fundamentally nothing more than an expression of your personal opinion, and one I believe to be unhealthily wrapped up around a specific instance. Perhaps you'd change your mind about the test if you found the right story to use as a counter-example, or perhaps not. Regardless, your test is applicable to you and you alone. Others may agree with it, but that is purely a matter of their opinions meshing with yours, and not indicative of any kind of fundamental truthfulness of the test. The Bechdel Test, for its part, is purely objective. Any two people reading a work will give you the same answer as to whether it passes or fails (barring weird fringe cases, like having one of the women be a hallucination by the other, or something). They may disagree on what the results of that test MEAN, but the test itself is entirely divorced of personal opinion.

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Craftsmanship is measured objectively, not subjectively. Everyone has different ideas on what constitutes good writing but we understand that most 5 years olds aren't capable of making objectively good writing. This is why writing is taught in school because it is an objective skill. We can identify the lack of Zeno's characterisation or his lack of relation to the story objectively. Whether you enjoy Zenos is subjective. How you feel about Zenos is subjective. But how well written Zenos is can be measured. The story should be mechanically sound.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

The supporting examples you've provided also seem to be trending toward the questionable assertion that "well written" is equivalent to knowing so much about the character that we can accurately predict what they will do upon achieving their goals. Readers don't always have that kind of omniscient viewpoint, nor is it a requirement for a work of literature - or the antagonist within it - to be well written. Very compelling antagonists can be developed, for instance, by knowing only what the protagonist knows about them (which, of course, is the general rule in stories told in the first-person). The protagonist could be biased, or outright incorrect in what they know, or they might not know the antagonist well at all. In such a situation the reader, too, will be biased or incorrect about what the antagonist would do if they destroyed the protagonist. It's not the author's obligation to tell the reader what the villain had for breakfast, nor does failing to do so lessen the quality of the character.

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Very well compelling antagonists can be developed in a story and used effectively, but the absence in writing of that antagonist disqualifies it as "well written". How the protagonist perceives an antagonist, would be character development of the protagonist, not the antagonist. With a 1st person perspective, the antagonist could be a hallucination that might not even physically exist. But in cases like this, what your looking at is the psyche of the protagonist.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

You could argue that early in an antagonist's development, that character is not well-written, but as the character develops it BECOMES well-written - but I feel this is basically just redefining the term to support your case. It may be irrelevant in Zeno's case, as the writers SEEM to have already laid all of his cards on the table (I would argue that there is room for further character development, myself), but when stated as a general rule for all works of literature, it becomes tougher to swallow.

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I'm sure fundamentally you are right in that I have no authority over literature. I only sought to provoke a thought experiment.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Craftsmanship is measured objectively, not subjectively. Everyone has different ideas on what constitutes good writing but we understand that most 5 years olds aren't capable of making objectively good writing. This is why writing is taught in school because it is an objective skill.

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Craftsmanship/art is not always measured objectively, that is an absurd assertion. Art and music are not measured objectively. Children in school learn how to write with good grammar and to use a style that gets their points across--they're not usually graded how how compelling they are at storytelling, because that's subjective.

This level of prescriptivism in writing criticism is absolutely absurd.

Something being "well-written" from a narrative standpoint is absolutely subjective. If a reader finds a character or story element effective and compelling in their narrative role, then from that reader's perspective the writer was successful at writing it. That means that the writer did a good job. That means it's well-written, in that reader's opinion. You are equating "lots of details" with "good writing", which is laughable. You hold up your preferred style of narrative as the supreme form of narrative, which shows an alarming lack of perspective and insight.

Music is not "badly composed" if it does not conform to Baroque-era rules of counterpoint. Visual art is not "badly drawn" if it is not very finely detailed. And so it goes with writing.

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Originally Posted by Keever

Craftsmanship/art is not always measured objectively, that is an absurd assertion. Art and music are not measured objectively. Children in school learn how to write with good grammar and to use a style that gets their points across--they're not usually graded how how compelling they are at storytelling, because that's subjective.

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Art and music are measured objectively. There's a reason art education and music education exists, because they are skills to be learned. If you want to say people measure their feelings in music, then fine, that's subjective. But the art of music and art of art is a skill.

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Originally Posted by Keever

Something being "well-written" from a narrative standpoint is absolutely subjective. If a reader finds a character or story element effective and compelling in their narrative role, then from that reader's perspective the writer was successful at writing it. That means that the writer did a good job. That means it's well-written, in that reader's opinion. You are equating "lots of details" with "good writing", which is laughable. You hold up your preferred style of narrative as the supreme form of narrative, which shows an alarming lack of perspective and insight.

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The movie Gladiator was compelling but how many people truly walked out of movie theaters talking about how "well written" it was? Compelling ≠Well Written
Real life can be compelling and real life doesn't even have to follow story structure, it doesn't even have to be written. I think you're confusing "Not Well Written" with "Bad" and "Well Written" with "Preferred Style of Narrative".

When you see bad filmmakers make movies with no plot structure, it's not subjective that the story becomes incomprehensible and thus "badly written". "I liked it" can be the subjective opinion of the reader, but "well written" requires criteria. If a plane cannot fly because of it's design, to say it is "badly engineered" is not subjective. We don't judge the effectiveness of machine based on "feelings" just as we understand that stories or art are not entirely based in "feelings". This is why movie critics exist. I'm not interested in Roger Ebert's subjective personal feelings on a movie, I'm interested in the quality of the movie. He wasn't always objective, but it isn't other people's subjectivity that people are interested in when deciding what movie to see. If a reviewer wasn't "bored" the 4th time watching a film, that subjective information is worthless to the goal of learning about the quality of a film. But if the critic is doing their job right, they will discuss the quality of the film using what is quantifiable.

I stepped out because I figured continued argument was futile, but I did not step down.

The "Edax Test" is simply using your own arbitrary criteria for what constitutes a well-written antagonist, and trying to make it a hard and fast rule. In this case it's "is related to the myth arc," it seems. Zenos is wholly unrelated to that, so he is deemed "poorly written." (Given as Nidhogg also has nothing to do with the myth arc and him destroying us wouldn't advance said myth arc, does that make him poorly written as an antagonist? If not, how so?)

Zenos' narrative purpose is not to advance the myth arc. His narrative purpose is to serve as the PC's foil, and perhaps their shadow archetype (the former is tenable, the latter is dependent on whether or not you accept Zenos after his rant in the Royal Menagerie). He is not the most complex or interesting character, but that does not mean he is poorly written. Zenos is a sociopath, behaves pretty realistically for one in fiction, and has the writing to fit. What about him is poorly written, beyond his lack of relevance to the myth arc?

Everyone's a critic. The quality of a film (or whatever) is subjective, beyond production values. That's why review aggregator sites exist; they determine the approximate objective quality of a film by taking a large number of reviews, determining how many are positive and negative, and giving a score based on that. However that is only approximate; you could still end up disliking a film with a good score and loving one with a bad score. Arthouse films tend to do well with critics, but laypeople usually don't care for them; blockbuster films tend to do poorly with critics, while laypeople tend to like them. (And before anyone says "But Marvel...", other than the Avengers duology closing out Phase 3 I've found it quite pedantic as of late despite high marks from critics and audiences alike.) It's subjective.

Trying to pass off your own subjective criteria as to what constitutes a well-written antagonist as objective truth is just self-aggrandizement. I must ask: what is objectively bad about Zenos' writing? (And myth arc relevance != quality.) What he has captures his character quite well if not perfectly. What is lacking?

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Trying to pass off your own subjective criteria as to what constitutes a well-written antagonist as objective truth is just self-aggrandizement. I must ask: what is objectively bad about Zenos' writing? (And myth arc relevance != quality.) What he has captures his character quite well if not perfectly. What is lacking?

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Objectively, he's not an antagonist compatible with the Hydaelyn vs Zodiark main storyline because his goals and actions are unrelated to it. And objectively, his character does not parallel the protagonist in any meaningful way, so he cannot reflect or shadow the protagonist. The FFXIV story was never setup in the beginning to be about "combat high". As main antagonist, he doesn't fit into the FFXIV story.

If Zenos was actively shaping the main storyline, or if Zenos character actually paralleled the protagonist in a significant way, then we could have said he objectively fit the story better. Objectively, characters should actively integrate into a story, instead of derailing it into tangents.

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Originally Posted by Edax

The FFXIV story was never setup in the beginning to be about "combat high".

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Unless you look at the Warrior questline where it is an actual problem that needs to be dealt with, as people who get consumed by that combat high wind up becoming unstoppable murder machines (referred to as "beasts") who endlessly seek that high until their body eventually gives out and they die.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Unless you look at the Warrior questline where it is an actual problem that needs to be dealt with, as people who get consumed by that combat high wind up becoming unstoppable murder machines (referred to as "beasts") who endlessly seek that high until their body eventually gives out and they die.

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I admit I've not started the Warrior job yet. So to my experience with the story, it hasn't been setup yet. Maybe Zenos will fit better afterward I grind through that job, I just don't know.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Objectively, he's not an antagonist compatible with the Hydaelyn vs Zodiark main storyline because his goals and actions are unrelated to it. And objectively, his character does not parallel the protagonist in any meaningful way, so he cannot reflect or shadow the protagonist. The FFXIV story was never setup in the beginning to be about "combat high". As main antagonist, he doesn't fit into the FFXIV story.

If Zenos was actively shaping the main storyline, or if Zenos character actually paralleled the protagonist in a significant way, then we could have said he objectively fit the story better. Objectively, characters should actively integrate into a story, instead of derailing it into tangents.

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Zenos is the LAST person you would EVER want to know about what we discovered on the First. Zenos is also the last person you would ever want with a finger on the button of something like Black Rose. EVER. Yes, we know he considered it a cowardly weapon (ie. doesn't want the WoL being casually/randomly slain by it), but that doesn't mean he won't consider it later if it helps flush out his target, or that it won't be used by a more desperate/chaotic Empire now that its own leader is slain.

Zenos is also (unwillingly or unknowingly) a perfect seed-sower for Elidibus. Zenos by himself is bad enough, but Zenos and other Warriors of Light is... not good news for our WoL (or anyone), though it opens the potential for Zenos to find something else to hunt, either by himself or possibly in a sort of temporary partnership with our WoL (but that's unlikely). Either way - within two sword-strokes, Zenos has no doubt crippled the empire. I dare say Varis named no successor (just like his complaint of Solus), and even the one with the power to wrest it for himself has absolutely no interest in it. The only other (known/potential) contender is Gaius himself, and it's safe to assume he won't be immediately capable of that. Despite already being saved 'by future influence', the WoL could be said to have also been saved by Zenos in a way (if he has indeed stopped the use of Black Rose, but I firmly believe he will eventually use it himself despite what he said at the end of the cutscene. He's the type to do so if it gets him what he wants, and that is scary. It could end up being WORSE than what was initially predicted).

Just Zenos getting his body back alone is bad. To have him know the information of Zodi/Hyde - the guy who utilized/controlled Shinryu to try and destroy us for sport - is worse. To cut the Empire into chaos like that may also do more harm than good for our situation (we've no idea of knowing yet). Black Rose in any shape or form being used by him (or a more chaotic/desperate Empire now that their leader is dead) is a terrible notion.

I couldn't give a damn if he does/does not parallel or influence the WoL directly or doesn't fit some sort of test or checklist, because to me that's not the point. Zenos is a mighty variable that can (and will) push the story in dangerous ways for everyone involved, WoL included, but people seem to persist with this notion that they have to fulfil X, Y and Z to have influence.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

I dare say Varis named no successor (just like his complaint of Solus)

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I want to say we've already been told that Varis named Zenos as his heir long ago, exactly to avoid a repeat of the conflict Solus caused by refusing to do so. I don't know where that information is from though.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Zenos is the LAST person you would EVER want to know about what we discovered on the First. Zenos is also the last person you would ever want with a finger on the button of something like Black Rose. EVER. Yes, we know he considered it a cowardly weapon (ie. doesn't want the WoL being casually/randomly slain by it), but that doesn't mean he won't consider it later if it helps flush out his target, or that it won't be used by a more desperate/chaotic Empire now that its own leader is slain.

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On the one hand, I'm reminded of Omega's actions at the end of Deltascape (and partway into Sigmascape), where it tried to nettle us to fight harder by hurting our friends. This seems like the sort of thing Zenos would totally do, since I believe that was why he oppressed his provinces so harshly. Black Rose would certainly fit the criteria of "hurting our friends".

On the other hand, I also think that Zenos is the sort of person who would prefer to do it directly. So whether he uses Black Rose to make us angry probably depends on how confident he's feeling that he can hurt as many of our friends as possible in person.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Zenos is the LAST person you would EVER want to know about what we discovered on the First. Zenos is also the last person you would ever want with a finger on the button of something like Black Rose. EVER. Yes, we know he considered it a cowardly weapon (ie. doesn't want the WoL being casually/randomly slain by it), but that doesn't mean he won't consider it later if it helps flush out his target, or that it won't be used by a more desperate/chaotic Empire now that its own leader is slain.

Zenos is also (unwillingly or unknowingly) a perfect seed-sower for Elidibus. Zenos by himself is bad enough, but Zenos and other Warriors of Light is... not good news for our WoL (or anyone), though it opens the potential for Zenos to find something else to hunt, either by himself or possibly in a sort of temporary partnership with our WoL (but that's unlikely). Either way - within two sword-strokes, Zenos has no doubt crippled the empire. I dare say Varis named no successor (just like his complaint of Solus), and even the one with the power to wrest it for himself has absolutely no interest in it. The only other (known/potential) contender is Gaius himself, and it's safe to assume he won't be immediately capable of that. Despite already being saved 'by future influence', the WoL could be said to have also been saved by Zenos in a way (if he has indeed stopped the use of Black Rose, but I firmly believe he will eventually use it himself despite what he said at the end of the cutscene. He's the type to do so if it gets him what he wants, and that is scary. It could end up being WORSE than what was initially predicted).

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Gaius wouldn't be welcomed as Emperor. Despite his accomplishments, him and the entire XIVth officially became enemies of the Empire when he refused to withdraw from Eorzea. Every current and former legatus would contest his claim to the throne, as would every single noble house. With no blood heir, Garlemald would be facing a bloodier and longer war of succession. The Empire is effectively dead.

With Doma and the Alliance having seeded rebellions all throughout Imperial territory, the whole of Illsabard could be at war with itself. It would be a dream scenario for the Ascians.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Gaius wouldn't be welcomed as Emperor. Despite his accomplishments, him and the entire XIVth officially became enemies of the Empire when he refused to withdraw from Eorzea. Every current and former legatus would contest his claim to the throne, as would every single noble house. With no blood heir, Garlemald would be facing a bloodier and longer war of succession. The Empire is effectively dead.

With Doma and the Alliance having seeded rebellions all throughout Imperial territory, the whole of Illsabard could be at war with itself. It would be a dream scenario for the Ascians.

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Which is why I am more in line with 6.0 being about a Garlean Civil War for control over the Garlean Empire with the additional plot of being the Grand Finale for Season 1 storyline but this time we will be directly in Garlemald this time and siding with a certain Garlean Faction so we can make certain the Garlean Empire seeks a more peaceful result this time instead of a bloody battle and conquest.

However, we must atleast expect opposition since we know for a while the Garlean Empire still struggle with the fundamental flaw of High ranking Nobles backstabbing each other from behind close doors for position of power. Garlean Empire may not admit it but we already seen some cases of this being a thing within the Garlean Empire and now with the Throne open once again and this time no one is strong enough to completely make them step down on their attempts, things are certainly about to get bloody this time unless the Alliance can get a faction that support peace in control.

If the Storyline for 6.0 is writen right, it can be the proper Grand Finale to this long Zodiark vs Hydaelyn Arc storyline that finally put a end to this long time struggle against the Garlean Empire and Zodiark with 6.3 being the Grand Finale that set the stage for Season 2 storyline with 6.4 to 6.55 showing where the "New Adventurer" will take the Warrior of Light.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

I couldn't give a damn if he does/does not parallel or influence the WoL directly or doesn't fit some sort of test or checklist, because to me that's not the point. Zenos is a mighty variable that can (and will) push the story in dangerous ways for everyone involved, WoL included, but people seem to persist with this notion that they have to fulfil X, Y and Z to have influence.

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Random Ascian #117 could have achieved that and at least would have had goals more related to the story. Instead we have a main antagonist pushing the story forward almost accidently since his own personal goals are unrelated. Zenos is dangerous, that's about his sole contribution to the story. Nearly every other villian that came before could have been said to have been dangerous. Heck, even Inspector Hildibrand could have pushed the story in dangerous ways if he were made Emperor. But again, it's danger caused by goals unrelated to the main story. Generally speaking, antagonists are more compelling when they are competent. Zenos is powerful but he's incompetent, evidenced by his lack of interest in being a leader and losing his territory.

On top of that, we've already had to sit through an entire expansion with Zenos in charge and failing to be a leader. Now we probably have to sit through all this again in the sequel?

Hildebrand wouldn't even make sense lol. I get that current form Zenos is boring, but the fun is actually trying to figure out which direction or how far he'll go. Yeah right now he's like Euron Greyjoy in GoT than in the books where you're like "this...@#!&* guy..."

Only writing will tell if he gets more interesting.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Which is why I am more in line with 6.0 being about a Garlean Civil War for control over the Garlean Empire with the additional plot of being the Grand Finale for Season 1 storyline but this time we will be directly in Garlemald this time and siding with a certain Garlean Faction so we can make certain the Garlean Empire seeks a more peaceful result this time instead of a bloody battle and conquest.

However, we must atleast expect opposition since we know for a while the Garlean Empire still struggle with the fundamental flaw of High ranking Nobles backstabbing each other from behind close doors for position of power. Garlean Empire may not admit it but we already seen some cases of this being a thing within the Garlean Empire and now with the Throne open once again and this time no one is strong enough to completely make them step down on their attempts, things are certainly about to get bloody this time unless the Alliance can get a faction that support peace in control.

If the Storyline for 6.0 is writen right, it can be the proper Grand Finale to this long Zodiark vs Hydaelyn Arc storyline that finally put a end to this long time struggle against the Garlean Empire and Zodiark with 6.3 being the Grand Finale that set the stage for Season 2 storyline with 6.4 to 6.55 showing where the "New Adventurer" will take the Warrior of Light.

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I imagine it'll be a split focus between Dalmasca and Illsabard, Garlemald itself included(hopefully as a completely urban zone with an allied enclave as one of the "cities").

Hear me out about Dalmasca: Zenos lacks a way to reach the Aetherial Sea or the moon to feast upon a god. Meanwhile, Noah van Gabranth(coincidentally the legatus of the IVth) has been experimenting with a device that can drill holes in reality and said he wanted to use it to reach the heart of the world. There are multiple plot hooks left unresolved there from Orbonne and various parts of the Stormblood MSQ, and it would allow interaction with the Viera just as Illsabard would allow interaction with the Hrothgar.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I want to say we've already been told that Varis named Zenos as his heir long ago, exactly to avoid a repeat of the conflict Solus caused by refusing to do so. I don't know where that information is from though.

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Even if Zenos was named a successor, rumours about him being demon obsessed might induce objections for him to inherit the throne.

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Originally Posted by Erendis

Even if Zenos was named a successor, rumours about him being demon obsessed might induce objections for him to inherit the throne.

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It was very clear Varis did not name Zenos his successor due to how he believed Zenos was just purely unfit to rule the Garlean Empire.

If anything it seems Varis may have assumed his goal is in reach and did not actually name a sucessor due to not expecting to be offed so soon which would not have happened if we followed the original course of time and went right into the Garlemald expansion rather than the First since we can assume if we followed through with the Garlean Empire expansion storyline for 5.0, we would have continuously encountered Zenos in a new body over and over again during our progess which would have given varis enough time to prepare and use Black Rose.

Varis did not mourn Zenos' 'death' during the end of 4.0 and explicitly referred to him as a monster unfit for the throne. As of his dying words, he also stated that the burden of the throne was beyond Zenos. So it is highly unlikely that Varis would have named Zenos as his successor. There is, presumably, others in line for the throne - though I have a feeling that Zenos will seek to take the throne regardless of his supposed lack of interest in it as his new outfit in Dissidia NT is explicitly called 'Imperial Court Attire' which suggests to me that he is going to embrace a high ranking position within Garlemald so long as it serves his goals.

Which sets things up nicely for freeing Garlemald from Zenos' tyranny. Varis genuinely cared for his people yet in many ways his hands were tied by Ascian scheming. Zenos, however, cares nothing for his brethren and would likely exploit them if it meant achieving his goals. I think it's likely that Gaius and Estinien survive their confrontation with Zenos but they will likely have need of withdrawing and gathering support to take him down once and for all so that Garlemald's people can be protected.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Varis did not mourn Zenos' 'death' during the end of 4.0 and explicitly referred to him as a monster unfit for the throne. As of his dying words, he also stated that the burden of the throne was beyond Zenos. So it is highly unlikely that Varis would have named Zenos as his successor. There is, presumably, others in line for the throne - though I have a feeling that Zenos will seek to take the throne regardless of his supposed lack of interest in it as his new outfit in Dissidia NT is explicitly called 'Imperial Court Attire' which suggests to me that he is going to embrace a high ranking position within Garlemald so long as it serves his goals.

Which sets things up nicely for freeing Garlemald from Zenos' tyranny. Varis genuinely cared for his people yet in many ways his hands were tied by Ascian scheming. Zenos, however, cares nothing for his brethren and would likely exploit them if it meant achieving his goals. I think it's likely that Gaius and Estinien survive their confrontation with Zenos but they will likely have need of withdrawing and gathering support to take him down once and for all so that Garlemald's people can be protected.

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Regardless of how he felt about Zenos and how he reacted to his death, Varis named Zenos as his successor immediately after taking the throne explicitly to avoid a succession crisis like the one Solus / Emet-Selch / Hades left behind. (This comes from the Lore Book Vol. II, if I'm not mistaken - I don't have it myself, so I'm just running off memory.) That said one must wonder what contingencies he had in place for his death, though I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Zenos' new alternate outfit in Dissidia is just his outfit from when Elidibus was possessing his body and recuperating from the wounds he sustained at the climax of Stormblood. Whether he wears it again nobody can say.

Zenos says verbatim that he has no interest in taking the throne, continuing the war with Eorzea and Doma, or using Black Rose. His one and only goal is to fight us again, hopefully after we've absorbed power from the two "gods" of the setting (since we all know now they're just really powerful primals), and won't use Black Rose because it could kill us.

Just because he's unconcerned with the myth arc thus far doesn't mean he's a poorly written antagonist, or that he can't serve as one moving forward. Shadowbringers is set to wrap up the Zodiark / Hydaelyn conflict, and Zenos may be more relevant to whatever lies beyond, die before that as the true final boss of the story arc (like Nidhogg and Tsukuyomi were for Heavensward and Stormblood, respectively), or just get chumped like Varis. Who's to say?

(What I do know is that back in 2.0 even, Lahabrea seemed to be hinting that without Zodiark's resurrection the Sound that devastated the planet back in the days of Amaurot would return... so maybe that. But I couldn't say for sure.)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Regardless of how he felt about Zenos and how he reacted to his death, Varis named Zenos as his successor immediately after taking the throne explicitly to avoid a succession crisis like the one Solus / Emet-Selch / Hades left behind. (This comes from the Lore Book Vol. II, if I'm not mistaken - I don't have it myself, so I'm just running off memory.) That said one must wonder what contingencies he had in place for his death, though I guess we'll find out soon enough.

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I somehow doubt that Zenos being named successor would mean anything because it's highly probably that Murdering the Emperor is not legal in the Empire, which would preclude any legal transfer of power to the traitor.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I somehow doubt that Zenos being named successor would mean anything because it's highly probably that Murdering the Emperor is not legal in the Empire, which would preclude any legal transfer of power to the traitor.

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This was a direct refutation to Theo's claim that Varis would not have named Zenos as his successor due to his unhinged, warmongering personality making him unfit to rule. The Encyclopedia Eorzea Vol. II contradicts that, stating Zenos was named Varis' successor immediately after he took the throne to avoid a succession crisis like the one he had to deal with. (I need someone with the actual book to corroborate that, as I don't have either book myself. I got to save $ for more important stuff... like Metal Wolf Chaos...)

That said, the only known witnesses to the murder are

1. A disgraced, rogue former Legatus and
2. A filthy savage

... so I doubt the fact Zenos killed his father would get in the way of him claiming the throne if he lied about Varis' cause of death.

Either way, Zenos doesn't care about the throne, so it's a moot point. He has no interest in ruling, only continuing his "hunt," so him being the heir to the Imperial throne is completely inconsequential.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

This was a direct refutation to Theo's claim that Varis would not have named Zenos as his successor due to his unhinged, warmongering personality making him unfit to rule. The Encyclopedia Eorzea Vol. II contradicts that, stating Zenos was named Varis' successor immediately after he took the throne to avoid a succession crisis like the one he had to deal with. (I need someone with the actual book to corroborate that, as I don't have either book myself. I got to save $ for more important stuff... like Metal Wolf Chaos...)

That said, the only known witnesses to the murder are[LIST=1][*]A disgraced, rogue former Legatus and[*]A filthy savage

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Which is so contrived. The Emperor get stabbed with a katana in his own throne room and no one is there to protect him or even witness anything. Where's the Imperial Guard? Where's the Cameras? Where are the security systems? Throne Rooms are the last places on Eorzea where anyone should get away with an assassination.

I'll agree that it would make logical sense if Zenos doesn't become the Emperor. I'm just not sure the story is going to be that logical. I suspect the writers are going to want to make Zenos even more powerful by making him Emperor, even if he doesn't rule.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

(What I do know is that back in 2.0 even, Lahabrea seemed to be hinting that without Zodiark's resurrection the Sound that devastated the planet back in the days of Amaurot would return... so maybe that. But I couldn't say for sure.)

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It is also possible that Hydaelyn's creators identified Creation Magic as the cause for the calamity, and thus one of Hydaelyn's functions would be to over time get rid of the foundations of creation magic. Which would cause the laws of reality, both aetheric and physical, to become unrecognizable to the Ancients/Ascians and thus unable to be utilized in creation magic rendering it, and the potential threats of it, inert.

We lack a lot of details about the exact events of what happened back in that first calamity other then that it began in a far off city and spread across the world from there, as it spread the Ancients lost control of their creation magic and started mass producing monsters from their deepest darkest fears, and that it started in their area with a sound from the depths of the earth. Which could very well had been a monster tunneling through the earth that had been created by a group of ancients elsewhere and help drive the underlying fear out of control, leading to panic, after it had been built up by rumors of the calamity in other cities.

If the elimination of creation magic is one of Hydaelyn's hidden functions then it could result in a possible story future where there will be no more primals, because the creation magic that allows them to come into being does not work. Allowing Hydaelyn to go to the field one last time to help us defeat a Zodiark possessed/empowered Zenos.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Which is so contrived. The Emperor get stabbed with a katana in his own throne room and no one is there to protect him or even witness anything. Where's the Imperial Guard? Where's the Cameras? Where are the security systems? Throne Rooms are the last places on Eorzea where anyone should get away with an assassination.

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I assume they would not have expected a random Centurion (I think? Can't recall the exact rank) to suddenly whip out a "savage's" weapon and slaughter his way to the throne room. Gaius and Estinien did kind of follow the trail of bodies behind Zenos.

Conveniently, said Centurion's body is now also in the throne room, and anyone who survived the massacre will probably attest to their presence in the palace. Especially after this conveniently dead Centurion is identified as one that deserted the battlefield at Ghimlyt.

This is all stuff that Zenos might make use of, if he is indeed the tactical and strategic genius he is said to be (by the Domans). However, his actions so far are entirely that of a muscle-headed battle-lusted brute, so I don't know if he even cares.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

It is also possible that Hydaelyn's creators identified Creation Magic as the cause for the calamity, and thus one of Hydaelyn's functions would be to over time get rid of the foundations of creation magic.

If the elimination of creation magic is one of Hydaelyn's hidden functions then it could result in a possible story future where there will be no more primals, because the creation magic that allows them to come into being does not work. Allowing Hydaelyn to go to the field one last time to help us defeat a Zodiark possessed/empowered Zenos.

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At the end of Shadowbringers, Elidibus states it was intentional, though I'm wondering why he seemed to be more concerned about balance BETWEEN Light and Dark in prior dialog.

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Oblivion has claimed him...
Emet-Selch...gone. Lahabrea...gone. I alone remain─the last of the unbroken.
Once more, I am moved to reevaluate the potential of these tattered souls.
Ah, Zenos. Never did I dream you could overpower me so completely, possessed as I was of your body, and all its uncanny strength...
And now that I have shared with you the truth of this world and its reflections, who can predict how events will unfold? ...Not I.
“Emissary”... What a poor jest that title has become. The flow of history has become muddied, its currents wild beyond my capacity to direct them.
You have wrested the advantage, Hydaelyn. The thieving hands of Your disciples tighten their grip on our star.
The origins of the world remain hidden and its inhabitants ignorant of their broken existence, just as You and Your creators desired.
They celebrate the gift of imperfect life─uncaring, unknowing as we weaken and fade.
But do not imagine Yourself rid of us.
Though Your champion has indeed proven the most egregious obstacle to our ascendance─a barbed thorn in my side─she may yet be removed and cast into the abyss.
Oh yes...it can be done. I will keep these “heroes” mired in the First, and victory will be ours at the last.
Warriors of Darkness now, are they? Then their fate is decided.
They shall meet the same end as those who came before─death at the hands of Warriors of Light!

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Zenos still needs a god to latch onto. Unless he's planning for it to be Hydaelyn (doubtful, but either way he'd need both), he now has a vested interest in the Rejoining and revival of Zodiark. He would not use the Black Rose if it killed you off, but that does not mean he would not utilise either it or the Empire in pursuit of his "hunt" - if Elidibus is successful in keeping you mired on the First (that could even involve finding a way to get Zenos there) whilst Zenos also uses the Empire to prepare the Source for a Calamity required to resuscitate Zodiark, I could easily see his professed aversions melting away.

I personally don't think there's any obstacles to Zenos's claim, other than Gaius bearing witness to it. His death meant Varis had no reason to disinherit him, and Elidibus's use of his body would also run counter to it.

Which isn't to say I think he's a good character, but he could certainly play a very big role in the story, depending on how Elidibus himself moved the pieces on the chessboard.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

It is also possible that Hydaelyn's creators identified Creation Magic as the cause for the calamity, and thus one of Hydaelyn's functions would be to over time get rid of the foundations of creation magic. Which would cause the laws of reality, both aetheric and physical, to become unrecognizable to the Ancients/Ascians and thus unable to be utilized in creation magic rendering it, and the potential threats of it, inert.

We lack a lot of details about the exact events of what happened back in that first calamity other then that it began in a far off city and spread across the world from there, as it spread the Ancients lost control of their creation magic and started mass producing monsters from their deepest darkest fears, and that it started in their area with a sound from the depths of the earth. Which could very well had been a monster tunneling through the earth that had been created by a group of ancients elsewhere and help drive the underlying fear out of control, leading to panic, after it had been built up by rumors of the calamity in other cities.

If the elimination of creation magic is one of Hydaelyn's hidden functions then it could result in a possible story future where there will be no more primals, because the creation magic that allows them to come into being does not work. Allowing Hydaelyn to go to the field one last time to help us defeat a Zodiark possessed/empowered Zenos.

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If true, it's all too convenient, to me.

I also don't necessarily buy that that's what he's getting at, if Cilia's reference point is his Praetorium dialogue. He refers to a growing imbalance. Yet the Sundering was, as far as we know, a one and done event upon Zodiark's defeat. That moment did in fact render all existence unrecognizable to the Ascians, fragmented and broken. His contention is that her continued presence in the star is what will warp said laws. Unless she is continuing to sunder and dilute the world (which creates its own unique array of problems, if true), his contention remains a mystery. She has already fragmented all existence, barring the unbroken members of the Convocation, and the protagonist as they progressively regain their "fragments" - for all intents and purposes, "Creation magic" as we know it is gone. For what you suggest to be possible, she would have to completely shatter all consciousness, because what yields Primals is belief/motive (usually collective) and adequate aether to be shaped by that belief. Or alternatively (and taking the other fork in that pathway), diluting aether until it becomes worthless for such purposes, but scarcely unproblematic since virtually all existence is constituted from it. After all, if even beast tribes with no distinguishing talents/traits can summon Primals, given adequate aether, that is enough to deduce (based on our current lore understanding) that it's not driven by the possession of Creation magicks. It's just that the Ancients possessed such deep wells of aether that they could themselves, at an individual level, manifest such beings, without the need for extrinsic aether, and this appears to be what they termed "Creation magic". Whereas he is referring to the twisting of laws both aetheric and physical, which sounds closer to something affecting the star itself, if he is right.

Whilst it's possible that the underground monstrosities were the result of another group of Ancients, with Zodiark then probably being summoned to restore the world and reassert control (perhaps through the act of tempering), there's enough in the setting to allow for the possibility of completely alien/otherworldly parasites, too, and it would not be the first instance of such warfare/invasions we're aware of in the setting, as well as parasites that have always lain dormant in the star.

I'll agree that there's a lot of unknown variables, but I don't think that the elimination of creation magic is all that he's getting at - unless the enervation has not ceased. That would be interesting, but again, it's a big "if" for now.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Zenos still needs a god to latch onto. Unless he's planning for it to be Hydaelyn, he now has a vested interest in the Rejoining and revival of Zodiark. He would not use the Black Rose if it killed you off, but that does not mean he would not utilise either it or the Empire in pursuit of his "hunt" - if Elidibus is successful in keeping you mired on the First (that could even involve finding a way to get Zenos there) whilst Zenos also uses the Empire to prepare the Source for a Calamity required to resuscitate Zodiark, I could easily see his professed aversions melting away.

I personally don't think there's any obstacles to Zenos's claim, other than Gaius bearing witness to it. His death meant Varis had no reason to disinherit him, and Elidibus's use of his body would also run counter to it.

Which isn't to say I think he's a good character, but he could certainly play a very big role in the story, depending on how Elidibus himself moved the pieces on the chessboard.

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The flaw with that is simply that Elidibus has effectively thrown the chessboard in the garbage. He seemed desperate when he marched out into Ghimlyt to kill the WoL, and he seemed like he'd just given up on the moon. The entire reason he told Zenos everything was because, with Hades' death and the WoL's personal rejoining, there are too many unknowns for him to direct anything anymore.

And the flaw with that is to just assume he's thrown it in the garbage, when he goes on to state in the very cutscene quoted on the prior page that he has a new plan to mire the WoL/D on the First. He was proceeding as he did in the Ghimlyt Dark because he was determined to wear the WoL down, and if possible, slay them, given what he perceived there to be gained from Zenos's uniquely endowed body combined with his own power, as the First was ripe at that point to be rejoined - all that was necessary was a Calamity. I suspect he was hoping to just whittle your Blessing away through sheer perseverance. He has something planned - we just don't know what the shape or colour of it is, yet. And I am just saying Zenos would fit much better into such a puzzle than anything recognisable as a "WoL" other than the protagonist. My bet is that he is banking on him causing enough chaos on the Source to be of use to him there, but if I were him I'd certainly take it a step further and try integrate Zenos into his plans for the First.

It remains to be seen what Elidibus gets up to next, though I do hope he isn't compromised for the sake of forcing Zenos to be front and centre.

Elidibus taking over Zenos' body and then not really succeeding at doing much at all with it makes me wonder if some major plot was scrapped at the last minute.

He didn't achieve too much with it in direct confrontation, especially given that your fight was essentially cut short, but he did manage to consolidate power for Varis over the increasingly restless Empire, as well as push him towards waging a war. The Black Rose would have done much more to usher in a Calamity, so by all appearances his plan would've worked swimmingly if the WoL had not been whisked away. What I'm curious about is how much information Emet-Selch relayed to Elidibus and therefore how much of an understanding he has of what came to pass on the First, including the use of your Blessing to absorb the Light, as well as the Exarch's use of time magic to wrest you from the Source - and thus, what he really means in his closing statement.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

-snip-

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Well one thing to note is that apparently around the time of the ancients there was nothing like Au Ra, Miqo'te, Hyur, Roes, Lalas, Elezen, Viera, or Hrothgar. Given by how the Ancients act like we are wearing concepts of our own design. This leads me to believe that after the sundering is when the races we play as, and the beast tribes, began to show up from the sundered ancients. Which would mean that all the races have access to the creation magic. They just need the appropriate concept model, which was the blueprint the Ascians kept throwing out to them to cause havoc, and a sufficient amount of aether to fuel the spell.

This is made all the more obvious when you look at the First, which completely lacks primals entirely until we tap into creation magic with the help of the aether supply of a Guardian Force left over from the time of the Ancients, Eden, to summon Primals so we can defeat them to restore the flow of elemental aether. The Ascians never supplied the needed knowledge.

Not to mention Emet's assertion that all of us, should we survive the calamities, would get our full powers back and this was directed not just at us but the rest of the scions as well.

So Creation Magic is likely not gone, but just slumbering due to a lack of aether storage in the majority of individuals still around and the lack of knowledge that was common back in the times of the ancients.

If Hydaelyn is meant to remove Creation magic then her twisting of the laws to completely render it inert without having to shatter all consciousness would be her way of doing things to avoid having to harm the life she was created to protect. Which would be a huge problem to the Ascian's plans to perform the rejoining and everything they want to do with Zodiark.

It also seems to me that the way things will go down is that Hydaelyn will finish her duty and go to the field to willingly join us for stopping Zodiark-Zenos.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

/snip

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Don't assume Eden is a Guardian Force in this game just because GFs do exist in this game and Eden was a GF in another game. And we aren't using Eden's aether; we are having Eden pull the aether within the Empty that is stuck in an umbral state towards a more astral polarity, using that aether to summon primals and then killing said primals, because we don't know what would happen if we simply changed the aether to astral and let it be, but do know what happens when a primals aether returns to the land. Also, Urianger is the one who teaches us the summoning rites. We don't innately know how to do it.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Don't assume Eden is a Guardian Force in this game just because GFs do exist in this game and Eden was a GF in another game. And we aren't using Eden's aether; we are having Eden pull the aether within the Empty that is stuck in an umbral state towards a more astral polarity, using that aether to summon primals and then killing said primals, because we don't know what would happen if we simply changed the aether to astral and let it be, but do know what happens when a primals aether returns to the land. Also, Urianger is the one who teaches us the summoning rites. We don't innately know how to do it.

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https://imgur.com/a/8iB09UM Akadaemia Anyder notes indicate to help combat the calamity they started developing GFs. What would be a good way to stop their darkness aspect creation magic that they know is going out of control? A light aspected Guardian Force that slows down the aether in the area to slow/stop the effects of the calamity in the localized area, preventing further creation of monsters.

What entity have we met that does that? Eden.

Just to add to the entire part on Creation Magic. Arcanists are probably the closest we get to Creation Magic being used "normally". Carbuncles, Egis and Fairies all seem like they would fit the basic definition of Creation Magic: concept + aether. The only difference is the Carbuncles, Egis and Fairies use up less aether then their creator can provide and don't have enough influence (or sapience) to Temper anyone. And all the spoken races can use Creation Magic to create primals, even accidentally as is the case with Susano.

If anyone would have stifled Creation Magic, I would think it would be Zoidark and not Hydaelyn to be honest. The entire reason Zoidark was summoned was to end the Last Days that were caused by Creation Magic going out of control. That Hydaelyn (and all other primals) can still be summoned after Zoidark "fixed" the world seems to indicated that Creation Magic works just fine. What has been diminished is how much aether living beings have access too. Which fits with Emet-Selch's definition of what Sundering is. Sundering halfs what something is... which probably goes for how much aether people could use. It doesn't seem to limit what can be done with that aether though.

/spoiler

Z killed every leader of each country.

Kan-E-Senna... dead.
Merlwyb Bloefhiswyn... dead.
Raubahn Aldynn... dead.
Aymeric de Borel... dead.
Hien Rijin... barely survived.

All with ease, just like the way he killed his father.