Pulling the bosses In dungeons as DPS a thing now?

It's hard for me to take a side fully for this situation, but I think you're more in the right Rubytoe. Generally when all 4 party members cross the purple line for the boss arena, it shows an indirect sign that everyone is ready. On the other side of it, a DPS putting unneeded stress on the group just because he / she wanted to maintain a buff is petty. A lot of the headaches could have been avoided if the Dragoon told you the purple line rule to begin with.

To answer the question, it is still preferable to let the tank pull. Whoever pulls first gets all the initial threat from the enemy group. Keep in mind that accident pulls, enemies engaging you first and target fixations sometimes happen. Countdown timers are not really needed in 4 mans and tend to be reserved for things like the 8 man Trials after a wipe. An exception for a 4 man could be someone explaining the mechanics to a new player.

I run with my buddy all the time, and they're DPS. They tell me if I'm being too slow, either a buff falls off or a combo disconnects. It's not a big deal to just voke and continue tanking, now more than ever with how easy it is to take aggro. Be grateful you have eager DPS instead of auto-pilot smooth brained zombies.

I WOULD say that’s definitely worse. Neither is ideal for unfamiliar parties, but slow dps can be absolutely insufferable. With over eager, there may be a hiccup at first but it will smooth out.

Protip

next time a dps pull, pretend to be afk everytime. So the dps will die and you will not be kicked.

To clarify my overall opinion on this, earlier I made a snarky remark about letting the dps tank it if they’re being uppity. This, to me, is only if they’re running ahead pulling more trash rather than just helping burn down whatever is in front of them. With dungeon bosses (not trials or raids) them being overeager isn’t going to have much of an effect on the smoothness of the run. Worst that comes of it is they get spanked before you tomahawk/shield lob/unmend/lightning shot it.

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Originally Posted by Conando

Then why does the performance of other tanks bother you? You should theoretically be rarely meeting them if you tank as much as you claim you do.

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I play every role. I get to see the frustration in all colors of the rainbow.

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Originally Posted by Conando

To clarify my overall opinion on this, earlier I made a snarky remark about letting the dps tank it if they’re being uppity. This, to me, is only if they’re running ahead pulling more trash rather than just helping burn down whatever is in front of them. With dungeon bosses (not trials or raids) them being overeager isn’t going to have much of an effect on the smoothness of the run. Worst that comes of it is they get spanked before you tomahawk/shield lob/unmend/lightning shot it.

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If a dps asks to pull more generally I ask the healer if he is ok with that and then I pull more, but if the dps goes pulling everything because he wants to finish his dungeon 3 minutes faster than he got a problem.

I have no problem in pulling wall to wall but I hate to stress random healers, especially new ones. We have low healer population and I dont want to scare the few people that are willing to try then.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I play every role. I get to see the frustration in all colors of the rainbow.

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That sucks. I mostly tank so I don’t really care unless they’re not even able to hold hate while I dps whatever they put in front of me, on the rare ocassions that I do dps.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

I have no problem in pulling wall to wall but I hate to stress random healers, especially new ones. We have low healer population and I dont want to scare the few people that are willing to try then.

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Same. Especially with the adjustment period that comes with every new expansion.

Everybody seems to be a Diva nowadays.

This is one of the most asinine discussions I've ever seen in these forums. Tanks should be the ones dictating the pace of the dungeon, unless the healer tells him to pull more or less. You as DPS don't know what CDs the tank had to use because the healer might have skipped a heal knowing the tank could simply use a stronger CD in that moment. Nothing to do with "tank entitlement". Slry. you waste much more time causing a dumb wipe than giving the tank time to get his Sh*t together.

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Originally Posted by Edenholt

Slry. you waste much more time causing a dumb wipe than giving the tank time to get his Sh*t together.

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But the tank caused the wipe, on purpose.

Tanks had to pull, because typically, whoever hit the target first would have aggro for the duration of at least the tanks first full enmity combo if they didn't have provoke up or wanted to save it.

Nowadays, taking aggro back as a tank is as easy as hitting the enemy once.

As a DPS with a timer mechanic, you'd just have to eat the penalty and start your rotation again, now you don't have to, now that the tank can claim aggro back in a flash.

Of course if the tank hasn't pulled because they're not ready yet and potentially afk... you'll have screwed up.

For the love of Hydelyn please don't do countdowns in dungeons. Everybody's cooldowns are misaligned from use on trash packs anyways, so it's not like anyone's getting their perfect opener out and you're literally just making the jobs with upkeep buffs risk losing them which is very annoying.

Also just, like, don't be a diva. This isn't just for tanks but basically anyone. If your party is "misbehaving" why would you make yourself spend more time with them? To prove your "point"? I assure you they won't give a shit even if you were indeed right. Just do your job to get through the thing as efficient as possible and move on. If somebody is being a baby, don't be a baby right back at them - be the better player. If you feel like there's something that could be corrected then explain it politely - it's not gonna work in every case, but it will work more often than screeching at people and being a spiteful ass.

I love how some fragile ego tanks post strawman scenario posts that 99 % dont happen while the op clearly stated he turned off tank stance because he got salty and we have posts like this:

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

Protip

next time a dps pull, pretend to be afk everytime. So the dps will die and you will not be kicked.

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yes guys the issue is the tank is insecure and dont cds ready!
what a bunch of jokers

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

Protip

next time a dps pull, pretend to be afk everytime. So the dps will die and you will not be kicked.

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https://i.imgur.com/RPmrAPm.png

Won't get kicked you say...

Sorry, forget I'm not playing ffxi from time to time. DPS handled the pulls there.

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Originally Posted by Lannybaby

The ego behind this comment is baffling...

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Your ego is baffling.
I just pointed out that punishing three players because one of them is not to your liking is not the right way. If you disagree with that I feel sorry for you.

I could care less if the DPS or healer pulls dungeon bosses or packs of mobs, I just grab the enemy. The only time it irks me is if the group dies at the same spot, this generally does not occur because people adjust accordingly. I even say I don't mind people pulling as long as the group as a whole can handle it. No issues while leveling so far.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Tanks had to pull, because typically, whoever hit the target first would have aggro for the duration of at least the tanks first full enmity combo if they didn't have provoke up or wanted to save it.

Nowadays, taking aggro back as a tank is as easy as hitting the enemy once.

As a DPS with a timer mechanic, you'd just have to eat the penalty and start your rotation again, now you don't have to, now that the tank can claim aggro back in a flash.

Of course if the tank hasn't pulled because they're not ready yet and potentially afk... you'll have screwed up.

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I dunno. Double Unleash + Salted Earth was a fine opener to me. Of course there was the issue of what to do when you don't have Unleash anyway

Impatient dps pulling in duty finder dungeons has always been a thing.
If you're really bothered you can politely ask them to stop but i usually don't bother unless they overpull and cause a wipe.

I certainly don't use ready checks or countdowns. The content doesn't need people to get the perfect opener and as we've been running through the dungeons pulling trash packs i expect people to be ready and not afk.

I'll wait at the lockout line if someone's lagging behind and to see if someone watches the cutscene, but as soon as everyone's there i'm pulling.

This is a loss cause, really,
Just a couple days ago got one of those dashing pullers being told here.
Its not like I was going slow even, properly pulling everything that I could remember could be pulled in a single go... everything goes smoothly then when getting close to the boss room the SAM jumps dashing in onto the boss before I can even get a chance to get near the room, like... they were far ahead.
Its not like I even stopped or anything...

Oh well, I did try to ask them not to do those kinda honestly rude feeling pulls on the boss, but seriously, its a loss cause. If they are doing this its already a sing that they personality is just as trash and you will only get bothered and mortified.
I wish I could still shirk them :l

Oh well, they ALMOST died once, but hey, they were the ones pulling the boss while I was 50 yalms away =-=

I've been seeing this alot as well and recently it has become even more so.

I' never seen such things neither on Chaos nor on Light.
Must be something cultural.

You do a countdown for dungeon bosses? I thought countdown tanks were a joke! I didn't know they were real! I have never done a single countdown for a dungeon boss since I started in 2.0. There's no reason to do that. You deserved to be kicked.

Now I'm reading some people do a ready check for dungeon bosses!? I'm so glad I main tank. I already can't stand other tanks when I'm healing in dungeons as it is.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

As someone who mained a BRD for four years before recently switching mains to DRK, and actually using those four years to properly learn DPS gameplay and even clearing a lot of high-end content, all I can say is this.


This kind of thinking is DPS Arrogance in its finest.


Our job as a DPS is to support the tank and healer by burning down enemies ASAP.
While I agree that DPS pulling bosses is only a minor inconvenience, when DPS start behaving arrogantly and start pulling additional mobs that the tanks/healers don't want to deal with at the moment, then yeah, the tank/healer deserves to let that DPS die.


Why? Because that DPS is being full of himself/herself by thinking that they lead the party, when that job belongs to the tank. In other words, DPS that try to steal the tank's job ARE NOT playing their role properly... and in my opinion, deserves to be kicked more than an angry tank that just wants to do their job in peace.


So for any DPS with that kind of arrogance, heed my words as a fellow DPS:


Do your dang job and learn your place. In the end, tanks and healers have insta-queues; you do NOT.

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then might i ask you this question, is it alright for the tank ( yes i am talking about myself here) to run a head and pull a new mob if the mob the team is fighting is mostly dead? ( ie like one or two enemies left but at less the maybe 5%hp).

back on topic tho with the new tanking structure sure getting aggro is much like pissing in a full bucket, it really amounts to nothing. that being said it does still urk me to see the DPS rush in when idk if everyone is ready or not. i havent yet in ShB content let a DPS die because he pulled a boss but in like HW and SB i have a few times literaly sat down and waited to be locked out of the boss fight because of it. still i think the issue was lack of comms, i at least warn people if they are pulling to much ot to soon and after like the 3rd time sure let the DPS eat a tank buster and pray they learn, but also keep in mind as a tank it is your job to protect the team, so long as said fight dosent end in a wipe it should all be good, but if the team wipes well then its both your faults.

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Originally Posted by Abomination713

You do a countdown for dungeon bosses? I thought countdown tanks were a joke! I didn't know they were real! I have never done a single countdown for a dungeon boss since I started in 2.0. There's no reason to do that. You deserved to be kicked.

Now I'm reading some people do a ready check for dungeon bosses!? I'm so glad I main tank. I already can't stand other tanks when I'm healing in dungeons as it is.

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you have this mindset now but just wait till you pull the boss and the healer has no mana to keep you alive.

So you look at his mana bar before pulling. If it's above half you're fine, none of the current dungeon bosses need much healing unless you fail at mechanics or don't use your cd's.
It's pretty much regen/fairy only with the occasional oGCD heal thrown in and a proper heal or two after a tankbuster. Most of the time they're dpsing.

I've never used a countdown in a normal 4 man dungeon and i've never seen another tank use one either.

As a healer main who ocassionally tanks but stopped because of idiots like this, all I can say is:

They pull it, they Tank it.

DPS don't pull. Healers don't pull. It's rude. You're being rude, arrogant, and just an overall nuisance. Nobody cares about you or your giant ego. This is a videogame, not a war. Have some god dang common decency. Did your mother never teach you manners? YOu have that? You know what common sense is?

Looking at those replies, a lot of people in this forum don't, and it's sad. Kindergarten.

If a healer or dps wants a tank to pull more, they can simply ask. Normally, in a normal tone, without annoyed smileys or passive-aggressive :) 's
Just stop. Asking like a normal person won't ducking kill you, and if it makes you uncomfortable, then YOU are the problem and need to see some professional help, because being annoyed by common decency is not normal.

Nobody cares about you when you run ahead and pull. Nobody gives a single s. You aren't cool, you aren't funny, you're a troll and annoying and you're making everyone miserable with your idiocity. Go learn some manners, then try again.

If a DPS or Heal pulls ahead, no matter if it's a boss or a small or big pull, they deserve to die. You want bigger pulls in this expac where big pulls are stupid? Ask.
You want bigger pulls in SASTASHA where almost no one has AoE? That's weird and dumb but at least ASK.

It doesn't matter WHY you want bigger or faster pulls. Nobody cares. Everyone in this game just cares about themselves by the end of the day, so stop thinking you're special. The run doesn't revolve around you, it never does.

No matter why you want it, ask. If you can't treat HUMAN BEINGS that are simply playing a game with normal, most-basic common decency, then you shouldn't be playing an MMO, or interact with any person in any way ever, because clearly you aren't capable of doing so in a normal and proper way.

Yes, I am annoyed.

Few days ago I had similar situation when I was lvling up my paladin in roulettes. I got normal Haukke Manor and was in a team where healer was still conjurer with low gear and had a dragoon mentor in my team who kept pulling the mobs ahead while running. I told drg to stop pulling mobs as its my job to do so and he/she responded that its so low dungeon that it doesn't matter as I can easily get aggro back. Now if I had friends who I knew in my pt doing this I would not see it as rude but if random person starts running and pulling huge mobs without saying just because its low dungeon its just disrespectful towards the tank. Healer himself had hard time doing good heals cause of not so good gear along with conjurer class who is 1-2 lvls behind dungeon lvl aswell. Most times we almost wiped because of this so just saying in here that its flatout rude thing to do no matter what dungeon you get.

Have never understood the mentality of "you pull it, you tank it". Yes, it's less efficient for DPS to pull - congratulations, you've earned yourself a pat on the back. Is it really the end of the world if the DPS do pull, though? And if a healer pulls I can't even figure out what you're mad at - they're the ones that'll have to fix up their missing HP, you just have to get the mobs off them. I mean, you're going to hit them with an AOE skill anyway, so realistically what's the difference? Same with DPS. Unless they literally die from pulling, the only one who should really care is the healer. Your job, as the tank, is to hold aggro on the mob(s) and mitigate damage - it is now easier than ever before to get hate off DPS/healers, so there's really no excuse for you to "teach them a lesson". If you have a problem with them pulling, then feel free to bring it up to them, but soapboxing on the forums about how DPS pulling is suuuuuch a pain isn't going to get you anywhere.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Have never understood the mentality of "you pull it, you tank it". Yes, it's less efficient for DPS to pull - congratulations, you've earned yourself a pat on the back. Is it really the end of the world if the DPS do pull, though? And if a healer pulls I can't even figure out what you're mad at - they're the ones that'll have to fix up their missing HP, you just have to get the mobs off them. I mean, you're going to hit them with an AOE skill anyway, so realistically what's the difference? Same with DPS. Unless they literally die from pulling, the only one who should really care is the healer. Your job, as the tank, is to hold aggro on the mob(s) and mitigate damage - it is now easier than ever before to get hate off DPS/healers, so there's really no excuse for you to "teach them a lesson". If you have a problem with them pulling, then feel free to bring it up to them, but soapboxing on the forums about how DPS pulling is suuuuuch a pain isn't going to get you anywhere.

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pulling as a non tank is rude, bro!
however behaving like 12 year old, dont communicate and waste everyone times to teach him a lesson? now thats what we gonna call a progamer move

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Originally Posted by Lapisluzili

You want bigger pulls in this expac where big pulls are stupid? Ask.

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i dont even

@ SpookyGhost

There's more context to it than just simply who pulls. Generating threat is generally easy enough for the tanks. However, I have seen some DPS players suddenly surprised they got all the initial threat from their pull and run away like a headless chicken. The AoEs suddenly doesn't work if the enemies are spread out. This can leave the tank with a choice of either chasing the other enemies running away from them or to just establish threat on the enemies by the other group members. Chasing the loose enemies may pose a risk to other party members gaining aggro from the other enemies ignored. Not to mention, the other party members might suddenly have cleaves aimed at them if the tank decides to chase. On the other hand, letting the loose enemies kill the DPS pulling usually ends up with the enemies heading to the healer and the tank intercepting them at that point. That is assuming the healer moves to the tank to minimize complications.

There is also a simple case of a DPS player not caring to notice the tank and healer are both fresh for the dungeon and can't handle big pulls yet. Forcing a big pull might cause a wipe in this scenario and waste more time than working with them. We do need to survive the pull in question too. However, it doesn't hurt to ask on trying if at least 1 of the 2 seems confident with decent gear. The group might still be able to do it if only 1 of the 2 are fresh and the DPS is good.

Another thing I see is these arguments also seem to talk about the polar opposite situations all the time. Some of the DPS seem to be talking about dreadfully slow and stubborn Tanks. Some of the Tanks are talking about the DPS dashing ahead 50 - 100 yalms away from the party. Both scenarios are rare compared to the typical runs I see in random queues, but we can see they get remembered well enough.

I think it's because they're rare that they're remembered
No one's gonna bother remembering or talking about a run where everyone did what they were supposed to and the run went swimmingly. It's only the runs where people act out or screw up that get talked about.

DPS pulling is disrespectful.

As the tank im the boss, the leader, the patriarch. DPS player are my minion, they serve me ... how dare you.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

@ SpookyGhost

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I agree that not every situation is the same, there's definitely nuance to be taken into account (as you said, how much is being pulled and how new the tank/healer is are big factors to take into account). However, while I honed in more on "DPS/healers pulling ahead", my point was more that grandstanding on the forums doesn't do any good. This topic isn't new - we've had DPS and healers pulling ahead for various reasons since 2.0. If you have any sort of problem like this in a party, bringing it up with the people actually involved in the situation is the best thing you can do. Dungeons are a team experience - if you're having disagreements about how to approach pulls, your party need to come to a consensus. Another suggestion I'd make is joining a proper FC or Linkshell to do battle content with, that way you're not simply casting your line into the DF ocean and seeing what bites.

just had this the other night

i pulled a pack and had aggro and the DPSer ran in front of me and pulled the next pack of mobs. I simply told my wife (the white mage of the group) "don't heal xxxxx and don't rez him", causing the DPSer to die and run back. Guess what that dps DIDN'T do the rest of the dungeon?

if you said "attack things that the tank didn't" ... you would be correct.

Ok. It seems we both agree that the lack of communication was the true fault in the OP's situation. I thought I would chime in that pulls can get chaotic if done the wrong way. It's why some tanks get frustrated and angry when the other roles do it. They sometimes get the blame even though they didn't cause it which fans the fire even more. But even with the justified anger, we still have to take a deep breath and realize not everyone is out to get us.

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Originally Posted by Vulcann

just had this the other night

i pulled a pack and had aggro and the DPSer ran in front of me and pulled the next pack of mobs. I simply told my wife (the white mage of the group) "don't heal xxxxx and don't rez him", causing the DPSer to die and run back. Guess what that dps DIDN'T do the rest of the dungeon?

if you said "attack things that the tank didn't" ... you would be correct.

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Just one pack, huh?

With how ez threat has become...who actually cares?!!! Oh no, I gotta overpower this mob the dps is bringing to me...my run is ruined. Seems like a lot of you want the same ol run as the first 100 and I’d wager trusts will fill that void more regularly. God forbid you push yourself to run it faster every time you go in. People always tell rushed dps to pf like minded people. How come we don’t tell people who want a chill/slow/lackluster run not to pf like minded people as well. As a tank/healer/dps queuing with randoms; it isn’t your’s as the tanks’ sole property. Nor is it you alone that gets to dictate how it will go. Get over it, adjust, move on. Being spiteful and molding the run to go as you please isn’t how multiplayer games work. No matter the role you chose.

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Originally Posted by Vulcann

just had this the other night

i pulled a pack and had aggro and the DPSer ran in front of me and pulled the next pack of mobs. I simply told my wife (the white mage of the group) "don't heal xxxxx and don't rez him", causing the DPSer to die and run back. Guess what that dps DIDN'T do the rest of the dungeon?

if you said "attack things that the tank didn't" ... you would be correct.

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Ya wouldn't have even had to tell me. If I see a DPS run off and be dumb I throw on a Lucid Dreaming and run to the tank. Though I'm usually close to them overall unless I pause to roll.

The pain will help them grow.