So it was bothering me that I couldn't place the voice -asking the question- to Solus at the end there, and loaded up a few older cutscenes to try an pin it down. An earlier post here marked it as Alphi but that just didn't sound right......Maybe it's because he has been out for a few patches but I actually think it's Thancred. Now I wanna know why those two are talking!
Revelations from the Shadowbringers E3 Trailer
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06-11-2019, 11:44 PMLycorisSelunis
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06-11-2019, 11:53 PMEdwinLiWe may become Warriors of Despair due to having our goals change to defeating Hydaelyn one day since by defeating her she may mark us as a being seeking to destory the Hope of the world being herself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
Light and Darkness may continue to exist but majority of the races in the world value and pray to Hydaelyn for Hope to happen and she grants that wish by guiding a Warrior of Light as her Champion to create that Hope. -
06-12-2019, 12:10 AMYshnal
What has me wondering is... if Hydaelyn and Zodiark are the eldest of primals, did the Sundering and the world split actually happen due to them being summoned, and not because they thelselves split? Or was there an even more ancient primal which was the one that got split into them? Or maybe the split itself was caused by something else and that's what made them appear? Was Ultima (the High Seraph) summoned during that same time period? Maybe there were more of these ancient primals and they're imprisoned somewhere too? What the heck actually happened back then? What did "our" ancestors do? Or maybe it all was caused by another being (Jenova-esque)? Questions, lots and lots of questions. And I doubt that I'll get them answered during 5.0 *cries*
Evil SE's writers.
EDIT: I'm also thinking that maybe primals are just a natural part of the world, and perhaps there can be both natural and artificial (summoned on purpose) versions of them. That would explain why, despite everything that we know, Hydaelyn still looks like a benevolent being, kinda like Ramuh seemed to be. Which brings me to the point: we've seen that primals in general tend to protect those that summoned them, so perhaps such primals just focus on protecting those that are close to them (the sylphs and the forest, in Ramuh's case, and the light beings in Hydaelyn's). In that sense, maybe Zodiark would do the same too. What I mean is, and as we've been thinking for quite some time already, I have the feeling that what we consider good and evil can't be applied to primals. Including our Mothercrystal. -
06-12-2019, 12:21 AMChaoticCrimson
I can't say I entirely trust the words that come out of Solus' mouth, but even so I'm inclined to believe that there's a grain of truth in there. Hard to know what this will mean for Echo users, or for the Source and the Shards at large, if there is credence to the notion that Hydaelyn and Zodiark are primals though.
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06-12-2019, 12:24 AMLiehaWell in the french version It's definitively Thancred talking ;) There he says that this revelation would entirely change the essence of what Zodiark and Hydaelyn are.Quote:
Originally Posted by LycorisSelunis
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06-12-2019, 12:26 AMmyahele
I find the mural very interesting
https://i.imgur.com/FMmH2aX.jpg
I wonder if it's going in chronological order from left to right? If so, it looks like there was a civilization destroyed by fire (calamity?) from there came what I'm assuming to be proto Zodiark-Hydaelyn (or is it mostly Zodiark?) and with people worshipping it underneath. Then after that we see them split off between light and dark with their respective worshippers. -
06-12-2019, 12:48 AMLycorisSelunisThank you! Good to have some cross language confirmation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieha
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06-12-2019, 12:51 AMHiroesX81I keep thinking about this but then if Hydaelyn is a primal then what the fk was what she and Zodiarc were originally? And what were the Twelve? Also I believe there were some markings during the trailer with 12 symbols on them in Norvrandt. I didnt catch a screenshot thoQuote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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06-12-2019, 01:05 AMEaraGrace
Perhaps Hydaelyn and Zodiark are the two parts of the original entity that formed the universe and the aetherial sea. After life and existence was created, the aetherial sea began to diverge, becoming effected by the different prayers and desires it received. The entity became discordant and split in two, forming into the beings we know today. This would explain the need for both of them to survive and why the Ascians want to “rejoin” them, as well as making the, both technically “primals.”
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06-12-2019, 01:09 AMCrushnighti think the order is right to left like how you would read a manga so starts with 1 god then Zodiark and Hydelen with a star behind them then Zodiark destroying a civilizationQuote:
Originally Posted by myahele
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06-12-2019, 01:17 AMwhiskeybravo
Destroying Hydaelyn doesn't seem like the answer (or rather, it seems like the answer only Ascians would give), since destroying Hydaelyn would give Zodiark free reign to plunge all the worlds into darkness, right?
My guess is there's a way to create a feedback loop of sorts, like it's not Hydaelyn itself flooding the world with light - but some other mechanism that's preventing a correction of balance. -
06-12-2019, 02:27 AMLineageRazor
Interesting that the Sin Eaters have been a problem for a century! That implies to me that the Warriors of Darkness were ALSO from a hundred years ago. They claimed responsibility for causing the Flood of Light, and the Sin Eaters presumably started to appear AFTER the Flood began. That implies that the WoD's did all their Darkness crushing way back then.
Of course, if the Flood has been going on for a century, it's interesting that this is the first we've heard of it. The Asicans must have known. Is it possible that Hydaelyn DIDN'T know, even before she was depowered saving us from Ultima? Could the Shards be hidden from her view? She seemed to be eager to go help once the WoD's spilled their sob story, so it would be curious if she's known all along and didn't do anything previously.
As for Hy and Zo being Primals, I don't really doubt it, but think it's more likely they're Primal-like beings rather than exactly like the Primals we know. As others have pointed out, they don't (seem to) drain Aether, and we seem to have an awful lot of free will if we've supposedly been tempered by Hy. (Of course, our free will could be Hy's command to us. Reminds me of the episode of Gargoyles where Demona succeeded in turning Goliath into a mind-controlled puppet who obeyed every command. Elisa's command to him? "I order you to act for the rest of your life exactly as you would if you were not under a spell.") I've long had the suspicion that the Primals the Ascians teach people to summon aren't the only possible kind of Primal - that the Primals were deliberately constructed to be harmful, chaotic, and Aether-draining becuase that served the Ascians' purposes. Hy and Zo could be "true Primals", and free of the problems the Ascians deliberately included in their summoning process.
This kind of alternate timeline stuff works fine when you have a multiverse with nigh-infinite variations. Unfortunately, in this situation we have only fourteen variations. It's the whole infinite monkeys thing. With an infinite number of monkeys tapping random keys, one of them is bound to write the Complete Works of Shakespeare just by random chance. Now, try it with fourteen monkeys, and see how likely it is to happen. With infinite universes, sure there might be a sci-fi version of you, a fantasy elf version of you, etc, etc. But in just fourteen universes? Very unlikely.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
As you say, it is not impossible. However, as RenewalXVII says, it's amazingly improbable. For events on two worlds which, while they might have started as identical, have done their own thing for twelve thousand years, to somehow assemble the same set of genes (or whatever this fantasy world has instead of genes) to create two copies of the same individual? Absolutely ludicrous to the point of shattering suspension of disbelief.
Anyway, the way the scene with the two Minfilias played out looked a lot to me like they were about to merge together. I'm guessing that Minifilia is a part of Minfilia that split off of the Emissary to act as an incarnate presence on the world, and when her task is done she will rejoin with her. Why such a presence was needed, remains to be seen...
Sorry, couldn't hear you over the sound of turning the whole planet into a magic circle to shoot you into another galaxy so hard you both explode.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarstenS
And Sephiroth thought he was so cool with his attack animations! Well, la dee frikkin' dah! -
06-12-2019, 02:35 AMDaraliiThere's another panel to the right a shot or two after.Quote:
Originally Posted by myahele
https://i.imgur.com/tkgGr1R.png
The order it's supposed to be read in is the question. Either it's about a complete Rejoining(destruction -> the two crystals and the shards -> singular Will of the Planet), or it's about the Sundering(singular Will, sundering creating the two crystals and the Shards, destruction). -
06-12-2019, 02:41 AMLauront
On Zodiark/Hydaelyn...
Although it is possible that Emet-Selch is lying, I doubt that he is. With the Ascians, it's more a case of being selective with how much of the truth they reveal than outright lying - even instances of Elidibus or Lahabrea supposedly lying were cases where Hydaelyn's intervention changed matters; hardly something they could consider a reliable factor in devising their plans.
So, assuming Emet-Selch is living up to his name (Angel of Truth), this has some interesting ramifications. I had thought this might be where things are headed based on two developments in the lore.
1) That Eureka, a mere Primal, could fashion just about anything given enough aether, including another Mothercrystal.
2) The striking resemblance of Ultima, the High Seraph, to the cover art on the ARR box art of Hydaelyn, with the crossed arms, the halo and the wings.
I think what Emet-Selch is saying is all the more plausible because it could explain why they're attached to those giant crystals to begin with, which are massive sources of aether which allow them to self-sustain indefinitely.
This raises some interesting implications, in that if they are Primals, from what we know of these beings, it also means they did not pre-date the formation of the world as we know it, because they would have been brought about by their worshipers. This is where I think the parallels with Ultima come in. She was a being of pure destruction who, through worship, gained consciousness and became a Primal. Initially, I thought maybe she gained a glimpse of Hydaelyn when being confronted by her and took her form in mockery or out of hubris, but now I think it's likelier that her worshipers had an idea of what Hydaelyn looked like and tried to re-create that. Especially since the lore behind her heavily implies she is not of this world, e.g. when it's stated that Ultima as a spell should not be feasible given the aetheric density available on the Source.
This, in turn, means that it is their worshipers who might affect their disposition. If Zodiark was summoned for ill purposes (or even out of a sense of fear), perhaps due to his natural affinity to darkness, that could have made him evil. Hydaelyn - as in the Primal in the Crystal - in turn, like all the other Primals, would no doubt simply be conceive of herself as a being which simply exists, rather than collective prayer given form through aether. That might be why she can't conceive of Zodiark as anything but evil. Whereas in reality, like other Primals, such as Lakshmi, his nature is shaped by the intentions/emotions/thoughts of his summoners.
So, what I am speculating was the case is that these crystals existed naturally, with a great concentration of aether in them, one aspected to light, one to dark, and the lifeforms around at that point began gravitating to worship of them. This may be where the origins of the Ascian Overlords lie, since they're ancient - it is possible they were the very beings who gave Zodiark his form. It's difficult to say with certainty, especially given that some of the Overlords may be latecomers. Possible that Emet-Selch was one of those people, and the others joined the club later on.
I think the difficulty in the setting is that with the crystals disjoined in this manner, light and dark no longer stay in a natural balance and so the worlds wax and wane between them, with this potentially taking proportions adequate to give rise to a flood in certain cases. As such, going by what Banri Oda said regarding the state of fragmentation into the Shards being a bad thing, it could be that they have to be rejoined... just not necessarily through the means the Ascians envision, given that these may in the end revolve around reviving their Primal version of Zodiark, more than anything else.
It leaves many questions, including whether the Ascians were around at the time, who were Hydaelyn's worshipers and whether the Ascians are all aware of this, and if so, on board with it, and also for what reasons? Could this be what they mean by the true nature of the Echo?
Elidibus still strikes me as an agent whose intention is to ensure the balance is restored, at whatever costs, and I suspect that is why he serves Zodiark - as in the crystal - as opposed to the Primal version the remaining Ascians revere. However, it is looking likelier and likelier that Emet-Selch is going to take on the role I thought he would for 5.0. I just wonder whether he's been playing the other Ascians for fools, and whether he has greater ambitions than simply reviving Zodiark, but maybe latching onto him like Zenos did to Shinryu.
Assuming that Emet-Selch is possessing Varis in the tent scene in 4.5, as I suspect, it begins to all tie together, when he speaks of "one race" (before the shattering) and taking control of the reins of history.
On the Sin Eaters...
The Eulmore thing played out more or less exactly how I was expecting it to, regarding the Sin Eaters living there and being fed living beings as a source of aether. If I had to guess what may have happened, is that following the failure of the WoDs and the attendant inception of the flood, it's likely that blame began turning inwards. So even with the First's Overlord banished, things did not take a turn for the better, thus the notion that this may be due to the impurities of the denizens of the world, and thus with the perception that Light = good, the idea came about that feeding the "sinful" to these beings - who, like Voidsent - hunger for aether, would free them of their current predicament. Hence why you have Innocence, who I presume is someone much like the Cloud of Darkness, at the top of the hierarchy of these beings. Eulmore, IMO, is likelier to be driven by fanatical zeal than mere callousness towards the outside world. -
06-12-2019, 02:41 AMKusanagi7
im guessing we dont kow where this cave picture place is though id guess its the 6th zone in shb?
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06-12-2019, 02:57 AMLaurontIf she's like the other Primals, she probably has genuine conviction about her true nature, i.e. genuinely sees herself as always having been the crystal goddess that she is, rather than the result of a summoning. That said, I doubt that she can't see the other shards, especially since we're not the only WoL and thus not the only one to bear the Blessing of Light. It's possible though that she does not understand what they are and the harm they can cause. After all, if an Ascian could endanger their own plans through flooding a world into darkness, it may well be the crystals themselves lack such knowledge until they see it for themselves... alternatively, it would mean Zodiark being one world further away from being revived, if it were to simply fall to the light... not to mention acting as anything but willing to help when they were discussing their fate in the presence of her champion, whom they were warning not to walk down their path, would be a trifle suspicious.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
I think it's likelier that it's because they have their own inherent source of aether, i.e. the crystals to which they attach.Quote:
As for Hy and Zo being Primals, I don't really doubt it, but think it's more likely they're Primal-like beings rather than exactly like the Primals we know. As others have pointed out, they don't (seem to) drain Aether, and we seem to have an awful lot of free will if we've supposedly been tempered by Hy. (Of course, our free will could be Hy's command to us. Reminds me of the episode of Gargoyles where Demona succeeded in turning Goliath into a mind-controlled puppet who obeyed every command. Elisa's command to him? "I order you to act for the rest of your life exactly as you would if you were not under a spell.") I've long had the suspicion that the Primals the Ascians teach people to summon aren't the only possible kind of Primal - that the Primals were deliberately constructed to be harmful, chaotic, and Aether-draining becuase that served the Ascians' purposes. Hy and Zo could be "true Primals", and free of the problems the Ascians deliberately included in their summoning process.!
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06-12-2019, 02:59 AMMieck
My feeling is that the Solus reveal is not a lie, but a lie of omission - there is a great deal more to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koji Fox
It seems like it could serve to highlight everything that sets light and dark against each other. Hydaelyn hasn't tempered every race, because they can clearly be tempered by other, (lesser?) primals.
Or perhaps Light (with a capital L ) can temper when it is dominant, and Sin Eaters are basically the manifestation of that? Tempering is supposed to be irreversable, and Alisaie says as much about Sin Eaters in the trailer. Are voidsent the Dark equivilent? Does that mean Zodiark uses tempering as a weapon (and has trained his chosen, the Ascians, to do the same? They, in turn, train the beast tribes?) -
06-12-2019, 03:02 AMRocl
The arc I desperately want for Solus is to be a man given the secret of becoming an Ascian, and after learning the truths of the world decided to aim even higher and become the true God. As such, he's playing both the Ascians and the Warrior of Light to his own ends—but we'll see. This sort of track was what I had pegged Elidibus for, but how could anyone have guessed the former Emperor of Garlemald was an Ascian? (And honestly if you tell me you called that the former Emperor was going to return to the story in a cloned younger version of himself possessed by an Ascian Overlord, one of the Fourteen, and second Ascian of the Source I'm going to need heavy receipts.) Ascian meddling in the Empire felt obvious once we learned more of the Paragons, but the idea that Solus has been playing them (akin to Thordan ganking Lahabrea) feels so nice to me. I'm a big fan of "history in the reins of man," and while Solus' idea (if this is the case) might be a perversion it's still an appealing 'twist' for me...
What I struggle desperately with regarding Hydaelyn, Zodiark, and the Blessing being Tempering is the Enigmatic Figure's words: "How many years have I waited for this moment... For one possessed of Her blessing... For you..." (Assuming that is him!) Why would he need to wait and seek out a Tempered follower of Hydaelyn to bring back the Night and stop/reverse the Flood of Light? Did he need a rebellious soul? This explanation feels unlikely—if he knew of the impending apocalypse why would he seek out that which would seem to hasten it? Is it because he arrived on the First after Arbert had left and none remain on the First with the Echo? But he wouldn't have needed to wait so long because... because Minfilia is there... she qualifies on the basic Echo necessary level. The Echo can be replicated via the Resonant too—does that mean an artificial Tempering can be made? Something is missing. Something is missing. Something is missing.
The Kuribu of Amdapor is most likely based on a Sin Eater, as is their Winged Lion. However, we see animate Kuribu and Lions on the first—though the Kuribu differ slightly (feeling more alive! actual hair, not carved stone, etc!) Did the Amdapori accidentally summon Sin Eaters before? Is the Apocalypse Cow FATE in Eureka Pagos transforming the Holy Cow from dzo to Winged Lion mean that it was a Sin Eater itself? Since the Palace of the Dead features pomanders that turn the player into a succubus and later a very different looking kuribu mean that that it transforms them into a Sin Eater akin to the Voidsent? If Sin Eaters have been appearing for about a century and the Amdapori have depictions of them at least 1600 years old... from whence did they come? I have to image this has more to do with the time between Shards being dissimilar.
Is the "power of Eden" mentioned in the raid blurb on the expansion sites the next evolution of our Blessing of Light? That's a good idea; but weird. All of this is weird. Where does the Black Rose factor in? How does it factor in? Solus was interested in it... Varis has made it... we do see Gaius and Estinien meet—perhaps they discuss it? Guh, what is happening with that thread? Why isn't there any Garlemald whatsoever in the trailer! Is that 5.X content? I never wanted to go to the First GIVE ME ILSABARD.
What is happening what is happening what is happening ẅ̸̥̲́͒͒͂̓̅́́̑͂̀͘h̸̨̧͍̺̫̯̭̮͌̒a̷͍̩̣̞̳͉̮͌ͅẗ̷̮̩̳̱̱͕̤͙́̓̌͆̄̒͆̽̃͗̚ ̶͙̏̑̀̇̓́́̅ĭ̶͔̣̫͆̇̿̈́̆̌̈́̐͊́͋͝͝͝s̴̢̥̬̩̘̬̱̠̩̰̱̙͂͌̅̑̔ ̸̡̛̛̘͇͎̬̱̜͚͉͈̒̔̓͛͗̓̏̕͠h̴͓̻̱͓̮̯̄̃͒̊̀̄͂̌͝ằ̸̦̹̪̫̗̱̰̯̘̪̪̀͂͐͑͂̚̚͝ͅp̸̜̭̟͎̳̔̐̿́̅̀̃̏̈́̎̒̓p̴̨̛̛̭̠͇̣̳̭͓̤̖̠̏̀͐̅̈͋͜ȩ̵͎͇̣̘̤͔͈̬̲̭͈̲͔̪̍̇̀́͛͘͝͠n̸̢̗̻̼̜͖̹͍͉̻̟̈́̏̈́́̒͊͐͝ͅį̶̦̫̠̯̹͔̯̦̘̲̲̜́͗ͅn̷̨̨̨̮̘͔̰̳̊̆͒̃g̸̛̛̥̦̼͖̭̼̬̬̭̜̲͔̮̯̣̾̊̇̿̓̅̈́̈͌
It's going to be a long couple of weeks....... -
06-12-2019, 03:16 AMJonnycbadQuote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
Not necessarily. For example, there's a Roe wearing red in the Crystarium shown in by some in the media tour who is the exact same Roe who gives the Derplander the leve cards in the 1.0 trailer. Since the Roe is still alive it means that either
1) WoDs journey was in the last 20 years or so,
2) Time doesn't flow anymore and everyone is ageless. -
06-12-2019, 03:20 AMDaraliiThe second lorebook established that Amdapoori mages saw visions of beings from a higher plane, which they created golems in the image of. These are the winged lion and Kuribu, the latter of which is differentiated from the real thing by the red gem on its chest that provides the aether to animate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocl
Please grant us answers, Koji. -
06-12-2019, 03:26 AMLaurontIt's exactly the direction I think they're taking him in, especially if you attribute Varis's words in the tent to him and not Varis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocl
I wouldn't necessarily go as far as "tempered" just yet. Whilst it is likely that the Blessing of Light is a form of tempering, from what we've seen of ourselves and the Ascians, there's no indications of loss of free will. It's likelier to be a more advanced manifestation of much the same phenomenon, whereby the subject retains their free will but feels a nudge to answer a higher calling, with the carrot being the substantial power it offers. Maybe the Echo plays that former role and then the Blessing comes as the "reward", with the incidental side-effect of spreading whichever force it's aspected to, i.e. darkness/light.Quote:
What I struggle desperately with regarding Hydaelyn, Zodiark, and the Blessing being Tempering is the Enigmatic Figure's words: "How many years have I waited for this moment... For one possessed of Her blessing... For you..." (Assuming that is him!) Why would he need to wait and seek out a Tempered follower of Hydaelyn to bring back the Night and stop/reverse the Flood of Light? Did he need a rebellious soul? This explanation feels unlikely—if he knew of the impending apocalypse why would he seek out that which would seem to hasten it? Is it because he arrived on the First after Arbert had left and none remain on the First with the Echo? But he wouldn't have needed to wait so long because... because Minfilia is there... she qualifies on the basic Echo necessary level. The Echo can be replicated via the Resonant too—does that mean an artificial Tempering can be made? Something is missing. Something is missing. Something is missing.
Regarding the Echo being something that could be implanted artificially, it's worth recalling at what costs. It's not easy to do, it required stripping out souls (the aether) from other beings and the host isn't even guaranteed to survive the process. It has all the trappings of Ascian techniques, as presumably even the Allagans did not know how to do this, and neither did the Garleans until Aulus came along (although it is an elaboration on aetherochemistry in a way), and I doubt it is common knowledge.
I too thought it could be parsed in terms of the Echo, which is more flexible in that both champions of darkness and light can bear it, but it's still bizarre phraseology, since the blessing has a specific meaning to it. What he may be referring to is what you have accomplished with that blessing, meaning you could achieve similarly great things with a darkness equivalent... however, that would either require Zodiark or some artificial version of him, which I suppose is what you mean by an artificial tempering. The trailer mentions the hero harnessing light and dark, which may be where this all comes together.
Most likely because this is only the first flood of Light of which we're aware. It's possible that it had occurred on other worlds but that the Ascians drove it back before it could go much farther. It's also possible that there are worlds outside the shards, where light or darkness can exist in a purer form, supporting life forms compatible with each - i.e. more complete versions of the void/what the First is becoming.Quote:
The Kuribu of Amdapor is most likely based on a Sin Eater, as is their Winged Lion. However, we see animate Kuribu and Lions on the first—though the Kuribu differ slightly (feeling more alive! actual hair, not carved stone, etc!) Did the Amdapori accidentally summon Sin Eaters before? Is the Apocalypse Cow FATE in Eureka Pagos transforming the Holy Cow from dzo to Winged Lion mean that it was a Sin Eater itself? Since the Palace of the Dead features pomanders that turn the player into a succubus and later a very different looking kuribu mean that that it transforms them into a Sin Eater akin to the Voidsent? If Sin Eaters have been appearing for about a century and the Amdapori have depictions of them at least 1600 years old... from whence did they come? I have to image this has more to do with the time between Shards being dissimilar.
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06-12-2019, 03:29 AMRoclAs the person who excitedly snapped photos of his Encyclopedia at Fanfest to post on the forum of this detail, I'm aware of what it says—and it doesn't say this exactly. =P The only explanation of why Kuribu looks like it does is one sentence, and the Winged Lion goes without mention: "To better contend with the voidsent, [Kuribu] is said to have been made in the image of transcendent beings from yet another plane." (Encyclopedia Eorzea II, 150) The first lore book's entries for Kuribu and Winged Lion barely mention the reasoning behind why the constructions look as they do other than 'golems made by Amdapor to kill voidsent' save "A winged lion was chosen for the design so as to engender confusion amongst their enemies" (Encyclopedia Eorzea, 294).Quote:
Originally Posted by Daralii
There is no mention of Amdapor convening with Sin Eaters, or the transcendent beings. Given what we know now, that seems likely, yes—but there is no hard confirmation that they met or summoned Sin Eaters.
Aye, it's a term that's been bandied about since the trailer so I chose to use the same. I also struggle to think that the Blessing of Light as a Tempering yet....Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
Should Hydaelyn and Zodiark be primals forsooth, does this mean the other banshin are capable of bestowing Blessings if they're powerful enough? Could Ifrit give his followers a Blessing of Fire or Blessing of the Inferno? Is it possible Sophia could give us the Blessing of Balance? The latter example chosen because it is markedly harder to reconcile with my idea here—this is all so confusing at best. Likely by design to help hype the expansion, granted. Can Blessings only be granted by the most elder and powerful of Primals?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
Aye, I suspect the Ascians helped design the Resonant (and really was why I pegged Aulus as an Elidibus skinsuit until Ala Mhigo). It's difficult though, because it feels like something designed to cause escalation in primal conflicts, and Ascians are just now playing this card? Entrapping/enslaving Primals was used in both the Third and Sixth Astral Eras (though I guess both are Allagan design), it seems weird for them to have a new play here unless the Warrior of Light is truly beyond all their wild expectations and dreams...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
In the CGI trailer he specifically calls out the "Warrior of Light" appellation as well, it's just so... bleh. Is it because we have done so much with the Blessing and for 'Light' that our shift to Darkness will be that much more impactful? It feels difficult to think we can play host to a "Dark Echo" or a Blessing of Darkness if they occupy a Tempering slot, as Ifrit says our "frail mortal frame" can but hold one the Blessing of one...compound that with the fact the player character glows with white/light blue aether when cutting through the Flood of Light and bringing the Night in the launch trailer... it's just... mixed messages....Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
Right, my point here was to harp on the fact time has to pass differently between Shards. War of the Magi and construction of Amdapori golems was ~1700 Source years ago, but Sin Eaters are only ~100 years old on the First. Voidsent have a history going back a good five millenia on the Source, so I guess my point was that the Flood of Light is probably more recent than the Flood of Darkness, but it still has to be old—unless there was another Flood that got curbed, of course. As for worlds outside the shards, that's a tricky and confusing notion? Yes, they must exist; Omega's homeworld and Midgardsormr's, there must be others but.... the Sundering and Reflection of the Source are a local phenomena I think? I'm not even sure how the aether of non-Reflection worlds would act... I've always felt dragons being so weird with regards to aether on Hydaelyn was because of their alien nature and the Covenant Midgardsormr made with Hydaelyn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
Is it July yet >:|
EDIT: I just remembered Y'shtola can see aether and that Tempered folk's aether is different and she can tell the difference and you're telling me since 3.0 she's looked at us and gone "hm ok everything's fine here" klasdjklasjdklasjd -
06-12-2019, 04:12 AMLaurontI suspect it relates to the fact that although Hydaelyn and Zodiark may be Primals, the crystals they each are linked to are not; they're pre-existing concentrations of aether, one dark, one light. For any of the other Primals to grant such a blessing could tax them too heavily since they have no innate source of aether. Dark and light appear to be the primordial forces in the setting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocl
Elidibus took great interest in the WoL due to his raw power, and I think a lot of it has taken them by surprise, including the permanent destruction of some amongst their own ranks, which was hitherto unprecedented. As formidable as the Garleans are, faced with a foe with such a potent Echo and the backing of the crystal of light, the Ascians may have resorted to sharing such knowledge to ensure the Empire does not collapse prematurely. Of course, Aulus may just be a prodigy and have stumbled on it by his own, however the similarities to the Ascian approach leads me to speculate that Emet-Selch may have been doing more than just "resting" all this time, and may have directed this project behind the scenes. After all, assuming that his great-grandson inherited his Overlord aether (which should be feasible given that most beings comprise of both aether and a physical body), removing the impediments posed by the Garlean genome may have been necessary to ensure these traits could be expressed... thus him fostering/guiding this project. Elidibus referred to the whole affair with Zenos as an "experiment" when discussing it with Varis if memory serves, which makes me wonder since it's an odd way of phrasing it all.Quote:
Aye, I suspect the Ascians helped design the Resonant (and really was why I pegged Aulus as an Elidibus skinsuit until Ala Mhigo). It's difficult though, because it feels like something designed to cause escalation in primal conflicts, and Ascians are just now playing this card? Entrapping/enslaving Primals was used in both the Third and Sixth Astral Eras (though I guess both are Allagan design), it seems weird for them to have a new play here unless the Warrior of Light is truly beyond all their wild expectations and dreams...
At the same time, it mentions the hero harnessing both dark and light, which I edited in afterwards. :p I presume we'll find out what makes us suitable as a host for both dark and light later on, since we're likely missing that part for now. There is also the question of how complete Ifrit's knowledge is, aside from the fact that you faced him when you were much weaker. A weaker Primal such as him may be unable to fathom of two such equipotent blessings co-existing and the WoL has grown a lot since they first met... and his reference point would be regular mortals, anyway.Quote:
In the CGI trailer he specifically calls out the "Warrior of Light" appellation as well, it's just so... bleh. Is it because we have done so much with the Blessing and for 'Light' that our shift to Darkness will be that much more impactful? It feels difficult to think we can play host to a "Dark Echo" or a Blessing of Darkness if they occupy a Tempering slot, as Ifrit says our "frail mortal frame" can but hold one the Blessing of one...compound that with the fact the player character glows with white/light blue aether when cutting through the Flood of Light and bringing the Night in the launch trailer... it's just... mixed messages....
It is entirely possible that time passes differently on the shards but I think they risk making it a bit too complicated at that point, if that's the explanation. The word "transcendental" had brought to mind worlds outside the Source and the Reflections.Quote:
Right, my point here was to harp on the fact time has to pass differently between Shards. War of the Magi and construction of Amdapori golems was ~1700 Source years ago, but Sin Eaters are only ~100 years old on the First. Voidsent have a history going back a good five millenia on the Source, so I guess my point was that the Flood of Light is probably more recent than the Flood of Darkness, but it still has to be old—unless there was another Flood that got curbed, of course. As for worlds outside the shards, that's a tricky and confusing notion? Yes, they must exist; Omega's homeworld and Midgardsormr's, there must be others but.... the Sundering and Reflection of the Source are a local phenomena I think? I'm not even sure how the aether of non-Reflection worlds would act... I've always felt dragons being so weird with regards to aether on Hydaelyn was because of their alien nature and the Covenant Midgardsormr made with Hydaelyn.
Ah, but can she see it? Maybe this is too difficult even for her.Quote:
EDIT: I just remembered Y'shtola can see aether and that Tempered folk's aether is different and she can tell the difference and you're telling me since 3.0 she's looked at us and gone "hm ok everything's fine here" klasdjklasjdklasjd
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06-12-2019, 04:18 AMRoclThis is an interesting point, and one I suspect we'll see clarified in the expansion. Ramuh muses that Light and Dark might've been given form when man was born—which also might be his explanation of the Sundering/the summoning of Hydaelyn and Zodiark. Ramuh could also be not knowing what he's talking about. That Light and Dark are primordial forces seems likely and I look forward to how the information is finally concretely presented to the adventurer. I'm not entirely sold on the Mother/Fathercrystals being independent of the manifestation of their primals (if this turns out to indeed be true) since both Bahamut and Alexander had a crystalline core and were particularly powerful Primals. That Hydaelyn and Zodiark are Primal beings strong enough to possess crystal core seems equally likely, just on a case heretofore unseen/documented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
I would be on board with all of this until 4.5 dropped, tbh. The timeline we're presented with now regarding Val and the Dawn Warriors means Emmerololth was destroyed either before or concurrently with Nabriales, really. Elidibus and Lahabrea make a big stink about "that which should have been unending" being destroyed and what not when the Warrior of Light finally offs Nabriales but Emmerololth was destroyed by the Students at Val either relatively soon after or before (since she was present in the Chrysalis scene and Val's disappearance with the intent to destroy her and Eureka happens somewhere around 2.1 according to Urianger saying he's incapable of reaching the Students of Baldesion; this means she's simultaneously missing since 2.1 but present in 2.3 but also dead somewhere between there).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
I'm less sold on Emet-Selch manipulating the Garleans past the War of Succession just because he seemed keen on taking his nap, but I concede it's equally likely he just says that to get Varis riled up. I also want to learn a lot more about Solus and the founding of the Empire and his rise through the ranks before definitively thinking Ascian aether also runs in his bloodline (because there's a lot of things I'm worried about if Ascians can interbreed with mankind).
My apologies! I saw your reply and grabbed it immediately. :D The fallibility of Primal knowledge shouldn't be glossed over, you're right. It feels so weird that every Primal knew and couldn't comprehend this though... unless, of course, it's by Ascian design than the rites of summoning were taught to lead to 'incomplete' Primals and thus they're unable to lay their mark on those "blessed" with the highest form of Tempering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
I'm very hesitant to think of life in the greater universe and prefer to stick closer to our Shards, but I definitely feel like the Kuribu and Winged Lion being based on aliens doesn't seem right. As for time dilation malarkey, I feel they've all but explicitly stated it with the idea that whole 'in that place between worlds time and space themselves bend and twist,' and we've known Unukalhai to be stowed away in Elidibus' pocket for at least 5000 years. Perhaps the 5000 years, for him, was only a few—which is why he's still immature (mentally, not physically though that is true too). Reconciling Sin Eater iconography from the Fifth Astral Era with the voiceover claiming "a century" definitely feels like it needs addressing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
It frustrates me to no ends she has a set of Chekov's eyes and does little with them. If there isn't a single line in Shadowbringers that brings this up to say she was unable to see it for some reason I will be SO CROSS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
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06-12-2019, 04:21 AMJeanneOrnitierThe 1.0 trailer was on the Source, not the First.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
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06-12-2019, 05:00 AMAlleoTrue and then you have someone like Elidibus that states in ARR that we would be on his side if we would know the truth, but never tells us the truth and now even tries to kill us because we endanger his balance. (Why would we want to exchange one primal with the other?) But if he wants to restore the world to how it was before and the story about the crystals is true..then why never tell us, the primal slayer, about this, especially at the beginning when we were still new to all of this and might not have had a strong connection to Hydaelyn? Why is he with the other Asicans if those want to bring their primal back, shouldnt they want both death if they want to change it back? Or does this show that there is a difference between him and them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rannie
Why is Solus telling us that?
I think its from left to right: Something bad happens, people pray and one primal comes -> people are split in their belief thus the primal is split too -> the last picture is Hydaelyn standing or hitting Zodiarc thus banishing him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daralii
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06-12-2019, 05:24 AMLaurontIt's possibly a difference of scale, then, however Alexander at the least required external aether to be sustained, which is why he sealed himself up, IIRC, given that he would bleed the land of its aether. Also bear in mind that following the sundering, we have 14 worlds that were born out of their aether. Given what we now know from the Eureka quest line, it seems logical to surmise that the quantity of aether these crystals hold is huge - and equally huge would be the quantity required to restore one of them, hence the drastic measures the Rejoinings require. So even if it's a matter of degree, the difference seems to be huge. So I'm just taking the crystals to be the "batteries" (closer to uranium, if anything), and the statue-like form we've seen of Zodiark in the Chrysalis (and now the paintings of both) to be the Primal manifestation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocl
Also, I'm going off the fact that the First has lost its elements as the flood of Light progresses; it would seem based on that that for the base elements to manifest, they require that darkness and light be in a state of balance.
I think that one may have more to do with the location than anything else, i.e. being in the Aetherial Sea, since it also killed them off as well; teleporting to that location may have been their proposed method of killing what they otherwise could not, since it was a desperate manoeuvre. Nonetheless, I'll concede that that one has yet to be given a satisfactory answer by the writers, assuming she really did perish there along with the Students.Quote:
I would be on board with all of this until 4.5 dropped, tbh. The timeline we're presented with now regarding Val and the Dawn Warriors means Emmerololth was destroyed either before or concurrently with Nabriales, really. Elidibus and Lahabrea make a big stink about "that which should have been unending" being destroyed and what not when the Warrior of Light finally offs Nabriales but Emmerololth was destroyed by the Students at Val either relatively soon after or before (since she was present in the Chrysalis scene and Val's disappearance with the intent to destroy her and Eureka happens somewhere around 2.1 according to Urianger saying he's incapable of reaching the Students of Baldesion; this means she's simultaneously missing since 2.1 but present in 2.3 but also dead somewhere between there).
I mean either way, it's a logical way for the Ascians to ensure the Empire has a leg up in the fight. Whether it was through specific design that Zenos gained this power, or not, is just a side-thought of mine. In terms of whether Ascians could inter-breed with mankind, I'd say probably not in the usual sense of the word, but they are beings of pure aether, and my understanding based on the lore is that aether is passed on in childbirth, so I'd think it would suffice for Emet-Selch to have been possessing Solus at the time, and in the process suppressing Solus's aether, since Ascians seem to entirely erase their hosts for the duration of the possession.Quote:
I'm less sold on Emet-Selch manipulating the Garleans past the War of Succession just because he seemed keen on taking his nap, but I concede it's equally likely he just says that to get Varis riled up. I also want to learn a lot more about Solus and the founding of the Empire and his rise through the ranks before definitively thinking Ascian aether also runs in his bloodline (because there's a lot of things I'm worried about if Ascians can interbreed with mankind).
I would also prefer to stick to it, but at the same time we have at least some examples of different beings hailing from elsewhere flying around in the setting. I'll grant that it's possible that the floods may distort the passage/sensation of time, as could the mere split between the shards, so time dilation may be in the cards. Loss of night and day cycles alone would distort perception of time, but this appears to be more fundamental than that, if true, i.e. something like 1 of their years equating to 100 or more of the Source's. Whereas in the Void's case you may even have a sensation that time's just... stopped. I guess this is all consistent with the weird ways in which time could be manipulated in the Chrysalis.Quote:
I'm very hesitant to think of life in the greater universe and prefer to stick closer to our Shards, but I definitely feel like the Kuribu and Winged Lion being based on aliens doesn't seem right. As for time dilation malarkey, I feel they've all but explicitly stated it with the idea that whole 'in that place between worlds time and space themselves bend and twist,' and we've known Unukalhai to be stowed away in Elidibus' pocket for at least 5000 years. Perhaps the 5000 years, for him, was only a few—which is why he's still immature (mentally, not physically though that is true too). Reconciling Sin Eater iconography from the Fifth Astral Era with the voiceover claiming "a century" definitely feels like it needs addressing.
Watching the trailer again, it's mentioned that during the time between realms, space and time warped (?) and bend (?) in unexpected ways, so there is probably something else going on here, too. I'm probably missing/forgetting something with regard to the Urianger reference.
Now, I'm curious as to what that something bad might be. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
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06-12-2019, 05:45 AMbyteslash
i'm going on based on what Ramuh said, something to the effect of "in the beginning there wasn't light and dark".
H+Z existed before any sentient being on the planet, so nobody really summoned them...maybe their creator did?
I think they are primals yes but of a different type and the primals we fight are distortions of aspects belonging to H+Z that are tainted by light and/or dark -
06-12-2019, 05:54 AMStarblessed
Honestly, the sneaky thing I loved about the trailer was Eden's signature attack from FF8 covering The First. It took me like five watches to realise the symbols in the circles around the triangle weren't of The Twelve.
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06-12-2019, 07:27 AMZohar_LaharThere is evidence of that in some of the Beast-Tribe quests. Several Amalj'aa beast-tribe quests tasks you with destroying what was implied to be (un)holy relics blessed by Ifrit. And the Ixali Air Stones are described as being blessed by Garuda. And then you got the adds in primal fights like Wavetooth Sahagin or the Knights of the Round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocl
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06-12-2019, 07:33 AMCilia
Functionally, while the stinger at the end is a big shock, it doesn't change much. As long as Hydaelyn remains in the aetherial realm, any aether drain she may have as a result of being a primal should be nonexistent. Her tempering also appears to be benign, insofar as it doesn't compel us to do anything the same way most primals' tempering makes others into slavish devotees (this may or may not be a consequence of the Ascian ritual used to summon most contemporary primals).
However, let's compile the hints we have so far to the true nature of the world.
Ramuh's conjecture: Light and darkness were once indistinguishable, but darkness came from the hearts of men.
Lahabrea's account: Hydaelyn is a parasite responsible for warping the natural and aetheric laws of the world, and must be burned out to repair potential damage to the world.
Hydaelyn's account: She and Zodiark once dwelt as one in the aetherial sea until Zodiark began to covet power, threatening the balance; in order to mitigate any damage he may have caused in seeking said power, Hydaelyn banished Zodiark as the moon, shattering his power into thirteen pieces which became the Reflections.
Varis: recreate the "original, perfect master race" from before the Sundering (to kill the Ascians).
Solus' (Emet-Selch's) account: Hydaelyn and Zodiark are both primals.
Cave painting inference: Hydaelyn and Zodiark are two halves of one twilight / dawn god(dess).
I think I get it, but... I'm not really sure how we're supposed to resolve all this. -
06-12-2019, 07:38 AMLauront
Probably just enchantments the Primals can confer - the Blessing of Light is more like a powerful shield/boost that helps protect the WoL against the likes of the Overlords and similarly powerful beings.
Also, given that Solus is playing the role of our Ascian frenemy in the trailer, I wonder if his actual intended use for the Black Rose is on the Sin Eaters, since that too would help tilt the world to darkness, rather than on its regular mortals. Whatever his final goal is. He’s acting out what I had hope would’ve been Elidibus’s role but I’m glad one of them is taking the time to explain things at least. -
06-12-2019, 07:40 AMLauront
Meant the above for Zohar re the blessings - apologies for the double post but damn phones won’t allow edits.
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06-12-2019, 07:59 AMdragoelete
honestly i think its was as someone else stated earlier either here or another thread and that they butchered the cutscene to add a shock value... so while it seems solus is talking about hyde and zod he could be talking about the ascians instead or something else. which makes it more likely to be similar to a guess i had a while back of the wol actually being a primal created by hyde. perhaps the ascians are primals created by zod before the sundering and is why hyde sealed him.
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06-12-2019, 11:49 AMJeanneOrnitierNow that you mention it yeah, this is something I'd expect from Elidibus. I hope he doesn't become full on villain now that he's in Zenos, because I always liked his frenemy thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
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06-12-2019, 12:17 PMYianKutku
My completely unsupported guess is that the whole "Hydaelyn and Zodiark are Primals" line will be placed in context at the last cutscene of 5.0.
Meaning we'll have to wait until 5.1 or later to get any answers. Because I can absolutely believe the writers are troll-y enough to do that.
More plausibly, I think the "Estinien meets Gaius" scene is probably (also?) going to be in the ending cutscenes of 5.0, since it would probably involve the Garlean Empire part of the expansion story. -
06-12-2019, 12:20 PMRannieElidibus was of whom I was speaking about with him dangling a carrot in front of our noses. With him not telling us or giving more of an explanation on what he means tends to throw him in the category of ... "yeah, that's nice but I dont trust you still your an ascian." Meaning I dont know why he wont give us a full explanation. Think about it this way... your sitting there having a discussion with someone who believes in something different to you like example the earth's shape. You're on the side that believes and knows with evidence that it is round. Yet, the person you're talking to is of the flat earth society (this is all just an example) now as I was saying you are discussing with them on the subject and all you say is, "the earth isn't flat its round and if you knew what I knew you'd believe me and join my way of thinking" . The person who is of the flat earth view is going to look at you and say "pfft, your out of your flipping mind!" And walk away. This is what Elidibus did to us and with no more than what he said we dont need to believe him. We are now seeing that yes we need balance but again ascians suck and want zodiark back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
As to why Solus is telling us this I honestly couldn't say. One thing I can say however is, it's an ascians perogotive to sow discord and chaos. *shrugs* I still think it's better to just wait and see.
Though on a joking note if need be I can change the carrot to a slice of rolanberry cake cause ya know even fat chocobos will run and fly for that stuff.
One last edit I promise. What the hell is it with thancred and now alphinaud punch blocking us. Damn it I would very much like to see our WoL just sock someone .... but do we noooo in the cutscenes we get held back and or someone else does it for us... *grumbles* -
06-12-2019, 01:39 PMEdwinLiWe will actually see some of this happen in the First as, if I remember, there was mention of meeting the First counterparts for some characters during a interview. One example is given in the trailer already being how our WoL will meet the First counterpart of the Merchant we meet in our 2.0 intro during the intro of 5.0 once we arrive on the First.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
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06-12-2019, 03:39 PMLauront
Have to say, I also quite like the theory I’ve seen floating around that Eden may be related to it all, if we go by Ramuh being correct and dark/light divide being the result of man’s actions, which would then later cause them to become primordial forces. Especially with Eden’s ties to the garden of the same name.
Whether that would involve it being summoned to deal with a threat only to become one, resulting in the crystals being split, or some other narrative, is intriguing. So perhaps the crystals were a singular entity, until something the original peoples of the time did - perhaps in response to a threat (of their own making?) led to all this. Either way, they’re definitely very different to all the Primals we’ve seen so far, what with their own innate power source.
I’m also betting the ‘originals’ amongst the Ascians - Emet-Selch, Elidibus and yes, probably Lahabrea - were amongst those original summoners. That may be what sets them apart from the other Overlords and be the reason as to why their echo is so powerful. -
06-12-2019, 03:40 PMMelodyCrystel
Has anybody an idea, by the way, how little Minfilia's eyes looked in the trailer?
->My screen doesn't like the odd light of the video, so I can't tell that one for sure, but has she maybe not the same eyes as the Mother's word -- alias the cloaked Minfilia we have in the CGI-trailer/-video?
If she doesn't, then my theory would be, that she's a different Minfilia - or rather Ascilia - and later merges with ours, since Thancred in mentioned CGI said clearly, that he would protect her this time (hinting the girl must be the one he's familiar with) while her eyes definitely had this pale iris lacking visible pupils.