WoW this, WoW that: Why are FFXIV forum users so obsessed with WoW refugees?

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Originally Posted by whodis

As a GW2 refugee (yes we exist), i don't understand all this hate for WoW refugees.

Is it just as a scapegoat? Do you find it that hard to believe FFXIV could have its own toxic players?

We've had WoW refugees in GW2 since a long time and GW2's community was never "WoW toxic, GW2 good", instead, they always welcomed them and sometimes even went as far as gifting them an expansion.

I've met a bunch of "WoW refugees" in FFXIV and they are actually funny and down-to-earth people. Obviously, experiences can vary for everyone, but i feel like all this hate is unwarranted from the so-called and proclaimed "nicest MMO community".

Also accurate:
https://media.giphy.com/media/Ypb8iBVXY577W/giphy.gif

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This is a thing? Never noticed it, tbh.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

How does he sound butthurt? He summed up pretty well what's happening. There is no toxicity in his post. Did you mean to quote someone else?

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I was "replying" to the poster. Not mocking him.

I'm a WoW refugee. I'm also an older family guy who is pretty casual and generally friendly to everyone.

I can see why some may not be crazy about picking up WoW players. There are a lot of turds that play WoW but the more people you have the more turds you will have as well.

The good thing is that most of them will go back to WoW before too long I think. Me...na, I think I'm completely done with WoW.

I think its simply a lot of vets in XIV are also FFXI vets, when FFXI was relevant WoW was THE mmo. So the FFXI v Wow mentality started up around the time both games existed simultaneously. Its very present in our mind as an mmo. Now a days, a lot of MMO vets in general are old WoW Vets. GW2 isn't a relevant game to me now, its just a really easy mmo that I think does a good job of introducing mmos to people. While I love GW, GW2 was just meh for someone who was into older school mmos. GW2 population was never, and will never be as huge as WoW's was. WoW being the most popular mmo of all time is going to hold a reputation, good or bad, with people who have played mmos for a while. We could list myriad mmos, and go on for days, but the fact of the matter is: Less population came from that mmo to FFXIV than WoW, by the sheer nature of how many people have played WoW.

Now add in the fact that WoW is going through changes. Current WoW made some changes people didn't like, and some people don't really want to go back to classic WoW. So they are currently trying out other mmos. Just like in between XI and FFXIV and again in between 1.0 and 2.0, I tried out other mmos. If they choose FFXIV so be it. They will adapt. I don't think most of the players who played WoW were "meanies" lol, most of the WoW vets I've met who came to XIV were just honestly shocked how nice it was and loved it. That niceness came from FFXI, not the other mmos we could spend all day listing which don't really matter to the game population.

A much bigger problem than "WoW refugees" is boosted players. Maybe some are WoW Refugees, idc. SE needs to add something more than the lowbie "learning" things to help boosted players, cause they are god awful.

As someone who's technically a EQ vet, that means I've been playing these games for nearly 20 years now. I've seen toxic and I've seen misunderstandings. I can safely say I know the difference.

This is one of those cases.

Here's usually what seems to happen. Its usually in the duty roulette of some sort. People aren't going cross world and starting stuff in /say. So yes its in the roulette.

Someone will eventually do something someone doesn't like. Maybe a tank pulls too much for someone's preference, someone doesn't heal when someone else thinks they ought to be healing.

Instead of talking it out, they play this weird game of passive aggression. In their mind, the slight was done in order to be offensive. When in reality, the tank that pulled too much may think he's trying to do the group a favor, the healer not healing likewise is just trying to help, or whatever happened, happened because someone either was ignorant, new, or what not.

So when the passive aggression begins, its a slight back to someone else who misconstrues it as something else again and you've got a toxic endeavor by both parties. Well all know how this could have been avoided. Communication.

I've seen some of this happen in Labyrinth of the Ancients last night. Some peeps die on Behemoth and when they're running back, people are complaining they aren't being quick enough. These aren't WoW refugees that are complaining. The WoW refugees haven't done that fight yet and are trying to learn. And they are being rushed by FFXIV vets to hurry up.

It was also a FFXIV vet who decided to tank the final boss away from the center, thus making one alliance's melees and tank run 2x as far to get back to the rune.

There's no need for that.

The game lets you know if people haven't done an instance. Your rewards go up for having such a newbie. Also it puts a returner or new player icon next to their name. When you see that, it means even though they may have done the content before. You need to give them a quick primer on the fight so they don't screw it up.

Some players come back after years and so the fights are no longer fresh. I saw a tank the other day who would have been top geared in patch 2.2, except that isn't top gear anymore. So while they were well experienced and geared at one time. I'm sure they forgot most of what they used to do. It has been several years after all.

Communication and patience will eliminate 90% of toxicity. And for God's sake don't make assumptions. If someone is doing something crappy, be patient and talk with them. Don't patronize, don't be passive aggressive. In my experience many players do what they do to be helpful as best they can. A little politeness will go a long way.

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Originally Posted by whodis

i don't understand all this hate for WoW refugees.

Is it just as a scapegoat? Do you find it that hard to believe FFXIV could have its own toxic players?

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There's been a mass exodus from WoW. I, too, am a WoW refugee, so I completely understand why they're coming here. A percentage of players from any given population is going to be toxic. So when you have millions of WoW subscribers entering the game, you can expect thousands of toxic players to come along with them. It's not that most WoW players are toxic. However, the sheer quantity of new players coming from WoW creates a situation where many of the new toxic players come from WoW. The 500 nice players who just joined your community are not going to be as noticeable as the 50 jerks who came with them.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

This kind of generalization doesn't help your argument. I like not having dps meters. Meters feed toxicity. I say this as someone who used to raid hardcore in WoW for years and spent more time watching the meter than watching the fight. Meters are not the only method of measuring improvement, they're just the laziest way to measure it.

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How do you figure? When it comes to job optimization and improving at your specific role, parses are a necessity. Every guide for every job made available comes from players using a parser to determine the best potential outcome. At a basic level, sure if the boss dies faster than you've grown accustom to, you may be improving. Likewise, if the fight seems less difficult, it could be a sign of improvement. Unfortunately, you have no way of actually knowing that. It could be you... or it could be you're in a party with far better players than you were two weeks prior. Another factor to keep in mind is parsers aren't all about damage. You can gauge literally everything from them.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The ubercasuals in this game need a boogeyman so they don't feel any guilt when they get kicked for being dead weight in group content.

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So the elitist in this game feel the need to kick someone because they aren't pulling all the trash up as far as they can.. got it.

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Originally Posted by Krojack

So the elitist in this game feel the need to kick someone because they aren't pulling all the trash up as far as they can.. got it.

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Eh, best to just ignore folks like that. They're few and far between and really not worth the time or energy.

The toxicity in WoW is usually just rudeness in general, a lot of the time by younger people.

The toxicity in FFXIV on the other hand is malignant with deliberate precision and the most toxic players are the ones I label "confucianists" based on their belief in a fixed social hierarchy that must not be upset. If you don't prostrate yourself before these self proclaimed mentors with Jesus complex you will know true toxicity, believe me.

WoW doesn't even have anything remotely similar to the confucianists and their toxicity.

One reason the FFXIV community is so offended by WoW refugees is because of the pseudo elitist pedantery described above with first time MMO players or theoretically minded people with the charisma of dried up wallpaper glue deluding themselves they are doing something highly advanced and refined that requires years of training and that they are in fact high generals moving pieces on a strategic map while entertained by the finest geishas. The WoW hate becomes a sort of self glorifying xenophobia which is in fact just ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Sasarayu

The toxicity in WoW is usually just rudeness in general, a lot of the time by younger people.

The toxicity in FFXIV on the other hand is malignant with deliberate precision and the most toxic players are the ones I label "confucianists" based on their belief in a fixed social hierarchy that must not be upset. If you don't prostrate yourself before these self proclaimed mentors with Jesus complex you will know true toxicity, believe me.

WoW doesn't even have anything remotely similar to the confucianists and their toxicity.

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The same type of people that exist in FF XIV exist everywhere else on the internet, including WoW, and mentor status has little to do with it. I've seen way more salt thrown at mentors trying to help than mentors throwing their own. There are good and bad mentors, but some people like to lump them all together which isn't quite fair. It is THAT mentality which caused me to remove my crown, though I still try to help if and when I can. But...this thread isn't about mentors, it is about something else entirely.

If there are a lot of people coming over from WoW, it is as I said earlier in this thread, no one would be able to tell. People are going to be people no matter where they are or what they're doing. That said, a bigger population also increases the chances of running into jerks. There isn't any denying that. They just stand out more from the rest of the crowd while the rest quietly takes their place among the rest of the population.

That also said, I have noticed that some people in this game seem to have a superiority complex when it comes to FF XIV and WoW, in that they believe their game is superior in each and every way and they can't come up with any reasons other than "FF XIV looks pretty, WoW looks like crap. That's why!" Meanwhile, WoW players are currently like "this game sucks right now, go play FF XIV. It's actually fun." A game can be pretty, or it can be ugly, but the game play is what matters at the end of the day imo.

The refugees will go back when Thrall goes back.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

The refugees will go back when Thrall goes back.

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Not I. WoW is in a terrible state right now. The latest expansion finally broke my addiction to it. As a result I have learned to appreciate the work the FF XIV devs do more, even if I may not always agree with the decisions being made.

What's a WoW refugee?

I guess I'm a For Honor refugee, a Mordhau tourist, a Mortal Kombat guest, a Final Fantasy 13 survivor...



It's literally just people that played another video-game and are now choosing this one.
What's with the special treatment?

I'm always fascinated by the number of people in this game obsessed with how something is said, rather than what is being said.

As if how something is said has any relation to the quality of advice whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

I'm always fascinated by the number of people in this game obsessed with how something is said, rather than what is being said.

As if how something is said has any relation to the quality of advice whatsoever.

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Didn't you get the memo? This is the era of container over contents.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

I'm always fascinated by the number of people in this game obsessed with how something is said, rather than what is being said.

As if how something is said has any relation to the quality of advice whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Didn't you get the memo? This is the era of container over contents.

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And I am fascinated by the number of people who make broad sweeping generalizations of the player base while trying to peacock about.

But hey, different strokes for different folks I guess.

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Originally Posted by Disc_Hunter

I'm fascinated by the lack of understanding that a person's phrasing when giving advice can reveal them to be an unlikable person.

Seriously, do you expect someone to give you a pass on toxic behavior just because your advice was valid? Because no self-respecting person will. If you want people to like you, don't be prick, it's pretty simple. And if you don't care about people liking you or not, then why even make a post about people's reactions to your toxic way of giving advice?

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Can get plenty of people to like you by being honest, prick or no. Toxicity has nothing to do with it, and the people that just plug their ears and are physically unable to comprehend anything that isn't sugarcoated are the toxic "you don't pay my sub" types.

These forums over-emphasize phrasing to the detriment of what is more important: communication.

If you can't take advice unless it's presented in the most cautiously worded faux-friendliness, maybe you have other problems more pressing than how something is worded.

These forums conflate honesty with toxicity to a laughable degree. Not everybody has to be your friend, but if they're honest with you thank them for at least saying something.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Not I. WoW is in a terrible state right now. The latest expansion finally broke my addiction to it. As a result I have learned to appreciate the work the FF XIV devs do more, even if I may not always agree with the decisions being made.

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I'm in the same boat I just don't see myself going back to WOW unless things turn around at least FFXIV has a better story to keep my attention and feels a lot less of a grind too and yes I know MMo's are suppose to be a grind but WOW just seems to double down on it now since Legion.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

the people that just plug their ears and are physically unable to comprehend anything that isn't sugarcoated are the toxic "you don't pay my sub" types.

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Oh the sweet, sweet lack of self awareness in this bit right here. It actually makes me chuckle. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by TMW001

I'm in the same boat I just don't see myself going back to WOW unless things turn around at least FFXIV has a better story to keep my attention and feels a lot less of a grind too and yes I know MMo's are suppose to be a grind but WOW just seems to double down on it now since Legion.

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They only care about how much time people spend in game is why. Fun? Nah, who cares about that. Just keep people grinding away. The joke is on Acti-Blizz though. People are leaving in droves and have been for awhile now. A lot of people are excited for WoW Classic, the very first iteration of the game, and not the current version that has 15 years on Classic. I think that is both fascinating and alarming.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Not I. WoW is in a terrible state right now. The latest expansion finally broke my addiction to it. As a result I have learned to appreciate the work the FF XIV devs do more, even if I may not always agree with the decisions being made.

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I can tell just from your reasonable tone that you're a former WoW player and although I don't agree with you on everything I respect your opinion. You rarely see FFXIV players actually presenting arguments that aren't incredibly biased bordering on delusional when it comes to WoW VS FFXIV or things like skill cap, floor/ceiling or community/raids.

As a matter of fact the same thing happened with me in BfA. I used to thrash FFXIV so bad because I felt it backwards and discriminating but after the train wreck that is BfA I really do appreciate how unchanging and reliable FFXIV is. I still have big problems with a lot of the community but the game in itself has a slower pace and predictability I learned to appreciate more.

As an FFXIV player I am in a minority as someone who's both "fluent" in FFXIV while having done my share of WoW without favoring either game completely. I see the illiteracy of the WoW refugees but it doesn't annoy me one bit since I know part of the WoW spirit is also "git gud" and anyone who wants to actually take FFXIV seriously will study up eventually. Others just play it for lulz and that's okay too. It isn't like WoW refugees are destroying the game by presenting independent opinions and not abiding by unwritten Confucian FFXIV etiquette.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

A lot of people are excited for WoW Classic, the very first iteration of the game, and not the current version that has 15 years on Classic. I think that is both fascinating and alarming.

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It should be anyways, but I get the feeling classic wont last all that long. Between how grind-y it was, the whole attitude of the Blizzard crowd has changed for the worse, and once it's only streamers getting first clears on anything.... it'll begin the decline. No company should run to the past like this to hope and improve it's future viability.

All of Blizzard's games are dying now and they aren't interested in saving them. Milk them for the cash now and pull the plug when it dries up.

I played WoW from 2006-2019 without a break, it took literally one of the worst expansions in it's history to drive me away. I can however understand some concerns people in FFXIV community may have regarding WoW players though, for years Blizzard gave them everything on a plate, there was a time when the gearing process was similar to how it was in FFXIV, the top raiders and pvpers got the best gear, the casuals grinded out badges to buy decent item level stuff, pretty much how it is here, yet, I've seen people on other forums whining about how grindy that is.

The problem is they come here with a WoW mindset which means some people (not all) will expect the world, like they got in WoW and when that doesn't happen they resort to shitposting, I saw this happen with practically every MMO that's come out within the last decade, fortunately, I highly doubt SE or Yoshi will listen to these people so it's probably all good :P

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

A lot of people are excited for WoW Classic, the very first iteration of the game, and not the current version that has 15 years on Classic. I think that is both fascinating and alarming.

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It's riding the hype train right now because of Asmongold and Sodapoppin streaming it frequently. I personally won't play it because I did that stuff back in 2006, I don't see what joy I can find out of playing it's old version that cannot advance or evolve. I also highly doubt it'll maintain long term success beyond the first couple of months, J Allen Brack may of very well been right in the end when he said " You think you do but you don't " but only time will answer that.

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Originally Posted by Mingqin

The problem is they come here with a WoW mindset which means some people (not all) will expect the world, like they got in WoW and when that doesn't happen they resort to shitposting, I saw this happen with practically every MMO that's come out within the last decade, fortunately, I highly doubt SE or Yoshi will listen to these people so it's probably all good :P

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This is the core problem that I feel most of us have an issue with.
This is Final Fantasy XIV, not WoW or WoW 2.0, no matter how much people might want it to be.
You cannot leave WoW for another game and then expect that game to become WoW. Then stay with WoW?

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

You cannot leave WoW for another game and then expect that game to become WoW. Then stay with WoW?

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It's not always about becoming WoW, though. You can not enjoy what WoW has become overall yet still like certain parts of it and wish your new MMORPG would replicate those parts.

Similarly, as someone who has started playing WoW as a secondary MMORPG to FFXIV, there are things from FFXIV that I wish WoW has, but that doesn't meant I want WoW to be FFXIV. There is nothing wrong with wanting certain features across all the games you play in a certain genre while still appreciating their differences.

That said, other people can disagree, just like I would disagree with certain changes some people want for FFXIV and I also expect people to be against certain changes that I want for WoW.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

The "wow trash" I'm referring to are the toxic members of WoW. I would say ffxiv trash" when referring to the toxic members of FFXIV. No, that is not toxic.

And to be fair, you don't have to tell people in WoW to use XYZ skill because they only have like 2 or 3 to use. If you can't figure out how to play at a decent level in WoW, you're really just not even trying. I know that sounds a little elitist, but it's simplified to the point where a banana could play it. Which is sad.

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man if you believe half of the nonsense u spouted here in this thread you clearly are one of the toxic members

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

WoW is in a terrible state right now. The latest expansion finally broke my addiction to it. As a result I have learned to appreciate the work the FF XIV devs do more, even if I may not always agree with the decisions being made.

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Same. I used to buy a month here and there around major patches after moving to FFXIV but finally I have no desire to go back. When they burnt my character's place of origin and a large portion of the race itself, it felt like a perfect example of how player enjoyment is secondary to the developers' vision and has been for a long time. The devs of FFXIV genuinely value the player experience and don't openly disrespect players.

I can't say why WoW players are a hot topic right now. Are people not aware that we have been joining this game throughout the past several years? The games or their cultures are not different enough to warrant panic about toxicity.

"Wowrefugees" is just a meme, same as Greatcommunitybtw.

I used to play WoW for 7 yrs, and I've been playing FFXIV since 2013, so I jokingly use WoW-refugees as well as a relaxed joke.

Most people when they use the term they mean "people who come here from WoW recently, and want to morph FFXIV into something similar" at least that's how it comes off to me.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I can't say why WoW players are a hot topic right now. Are people not aware that we have been joining this game throughout the past several years? The games or their cultures are not different enough to warrant panic about toxicity.

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As far as I'm aware, it's because there are just so many WoW players in general. WoW on a bad day still dwarfs most MMOs on the market, and now those players are jumping ship in numbers not seen since WoD post-launch. So when many people come running to the "second best" sub MMO, it makes people nervous.

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

This is the core problem that I feel most of us have an issue with.
This is Final Fantasy XIV, not WoW or WoW 2.0, no matter how much people might want it to be.
You cannot leave WoW for another game and then expect that game to become WoW. Then stay with WoW?

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This is exactly it, i will state not all but some Wow players try to force their viewpoints on the FFXIV community and try to push for the game to become more like Wow.
If players want Wow or miss it go play it, FFXIV is nothing like it nor should it become similar in any way. Ideas perhaps but not the core of the game.
I trust the vision that Yoshi and his team has.

I think WoW is more progression based than FF14, and that inherently brings the worst in people not matter the game, or genre not just MMO.

This isn't to say WoW is a bad game, I've enjoyed it on and off since it came out. It's just very progression oriented, do normal dungeons, so you can move to heroic, eventually Mythic+, LFR, Normal raids, then heroic raids, Mythic raids and so on. There isn't much else to do in WoW except going through that progression and the World Quests. So people want to progress and get impatient/toxic when their progression is slowed by new/bad players.

FF14 has progression obviously, but also has tons of other side activity that have nothing to do with progression like gathering/crafting, Golden Saucer, Housing, Hunts, Beast Tribes, Wondrous Tales, Custom Deliveries,etc. and most of those don't really encourage toxic behavior.

The Duty Roulette aside from maybe the level 70 roulette is all about helping new players, or people new to a job...so you know going in that you'll most likely be put with someone learning, and I think it inherently makes people be more patient from the get go, sure it can sometimes can be frustrating when the run goes horribly wrong, but you knew going in that this will happen once in a while...and I found most people just take it in stride, laugh it up, encourage each other...and eventually make it through without much drama...because aside from taking more time...it doesn't stop your progression much.

It's just how both games are designed, I think the more progression oriented a game design is, the more bad behavior you will see...it's just how people react to their progress being slowed or stopped because of other "bad" players.

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

This is the core problem that I feel most of us have an issue with.
This is Final Fantasy XIV, not WoW or WoW 2.0, no matter how much people might want it to be.
You cannot leave WoW for another game and then expect that game to become WoW. Then stay with WoW?

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First off, please understand that WoW has changed very much over the years, this per every expansion. We are talking entire game design systems getting revamped. This is important to understand because in my observations a lot of WoW players have noticed that Final Fantasy has been, and is, using progression systems that WoW has seen earlier in its life. One example for this is gear and how to obtain it, FF XIV has not become the RNG-feast that WoW is - and this aspect is very important for a lot of players. Players might be leaving WoW because they see that FFXIV is a good iteration of the WoW they liked, not what WoW is now. Also, I like to lurk a lot on these and other parts of the forums - what would you say are the expectations of ex-WoW players - how are they changing the game or voicing these opinions? During the last months I'd say that "rethink Blue Mage", "gender locked races" and now "healers are gonna be boring in Shadowbringers" are/have been the main topics of bigger discussions?! Speaking about WoW 2.0. Shadowbringers is not FF XIV 1.0, nor 2.0 nor 3.0. Aye? :D

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Originally Posted by Maero

This is exactly it, i will state not all but some Wow players try to force their viewpoints on the FFXIV community and try to push for the game to become more like Wow.
If players want Wow or miss it go play it, FFXIV is nothing like it nor should it become similar in any way. Ideas perhaps but not the core of the game.
I trust the vision that Yoshi and his team has.

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To add from my reflections above. The 2017 documentary "One Point O" (youtube, first part, 35.34 into it) has Yoshi P discussing WoW specifically, and how it was important to look at what the competition was doing, because during the development of 1.0, they had not done that. So if you want FF XIV without WoW influencens, then I guess FF XIV 1.0 is (was) for you? I'm sad for your loss. ;)
Same goes for WoW devs. When I got into FF XIV I noticed how WoW has been influenced by it. Legion had a lot of the story locked behind job/class-quests and making the player the main hero in a much different and central way.:rolleyes: However, Blizzard has always been trying to "remake" the game and by so changing it a lot, and sadly murdering the lore on its way. Whilst I see that SE has a more conservative design philosophy - and I say both ways have good and bad aspects to them - I prefer the FF XIV one though.

But what does "for the game to become more more like WoW?". Easier? More elitistic? Are you worried that crafting will change? Because that is one aspect of the game that seems very different from the (non-existing) WoW one. I am honestly curious? I'll even throw in one, as an ex-WoW player I'd really hate to see that FF XIV gives players to much to fast - as in they don't have to level through the MSQ and dungeons, when the Mog shop started to sell the quick access I was worried that it'd also be a free inclusive into new expansions. However, there might be a point in stream-lining some of the quests or giving players some more XP so they don't get totally stuck with FATE or PotD (though I do think PotD fills inte function well). :)

Edit: I'm painfully aware that this kind of discussion without "zomg git gud kktnxbai"-comments would probably...would most defintly be impossible on WoW forums, be it SE restrictions or lax one from Blizzard, this is a fact which I'd hate to see happen here. Even worse, Blizzard recently fired a lot of moderators and other non-dev staff which I do belive hurts the community.

I was a WoW refugee 2 years ago but went back. Now I play both because each have periods of downtime.

The successful version of FFXIV is a pretty, heavily instanced version of WoW without workable PVP and the 15 years of content to draw on. It lacks customization and has a niche end-game.
WoW is old and as players who have played it forever get burnt out they flail around trying to make new gimmicks to keep people interested. These rarely work - and in the case of the current expansion particularly so.

FFXIV is immersive - as much as the instancing allows - but hollow. It's enjoyable in quick bursts - which, in my opinion is good thing. It lacks the skinner-box need to keep grinding for anything - characters don't have any demonstrable growth. Which could be viewed as a positive.
WoW is an ageing giant that goes too much out of its way to please everyone it ends up pleasing less than necessary.

I like both, I play both.

MMOs are all about time - the time you start playing to the time you use up the content. That is different for everyone. If FFXIV is attracting more players, whether that be WoW players or other, that can only be a good thing.

Played wow for 11 years just quit at beginning of this year

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Originally Posted by Emmanellain

Most people when they use the term they mean "people who come here from WoW recently, and want to morph FFXIV into something similar" at least that's how it comes off to me.

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FFXIV was the first MMO I have ever played, and this is pretty close to what it means (at least to me)

Except it's a little off. When people suggest a system that worked better in another MMO, I'm all for listening and seeing if I think that would work in this game (for example, I think the teleport system of ESO is better than the one we have for FFXIV), but when the same person goes on and on about how another game was better in multiple ways, then I start to get a bit snippy and tell them to go play that game instead if they hate this one and enjoy that one. This isn't just WoW, though, I've said it to people who constantly compare this game to FFXI as well.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Same. I used to buy a month here and there around major patches after moving to FFXIV but finally I have no desire to go back. When they burnt my character's place of origin and a large portion of the race itself, it felt like a perfect example of how player enjoyment is secondary to the developers' vision and has been for a long time. The devs of FFXIV genuinely value the player experience and don't openly disrespect players.

I can't say why WoW players are a hot topic right now. Are people not aware that we have been joining this game throughout the past several years? The games or their cultures are not different enough to warrant panic about toxicity.

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When they do major changes to the world it never comes off as good Cataclysm ruining the Barrens, Thousand Needles and other locations never sat well with most players doing something like that again with two capital cities was another mistake.

I don't understand either, I've found most of the WoW refugees to be the most genuinely pleasant and respectul people to play with nowadays, and the least toxic when talking about the upcoming Shadowbringers changes (and that coming from someone who played FFXIV since phase 3 beta..)

And for the new GW2 refugees: Welcome to Eorzea! (I seriously need to finish Path of Fire though..)

Necroing of this thread aside, I'll give my thoughts.

FFXIV 1.0 was mainly FFXI players who had high end machines ready to run, along with some who didn't. The FFXI community was what many nowadays would consider "elitist" by nature, due to the nature of FFXI's leveling structure as well as endgame. Basically, if someone wasn't rocking the best gear available to them at a given level you could get kicked from an EXP party, especially if your battle performance was poor. This sort of mentality filtered through the playerbase to varying degrees, but for the most part, people who played FFXI and FFXIV 1.0 have a background that values putting a lot of effort into your play.

Couple this with the fact that a large portion of the FFXI playerbase resented WoW in one form or another, for what reasons, I'm not 100% sure, but this has been a whole thing dating back to then even, though almost no one from WoW played FFXI long-term, though I'm sure there are those exceptions out there who did or currently are. I was in a few linkshells who claimed that WoW was an easy game by comparison that anyone could play with almost no effort, and while I don't think that's true on all levels, it was the story presented (and is true on some levels). In the name of socializing, even if people had no knowledge of WoW they would gladly jump onto the bandwagon of hating it, just to feel more in line with their friends and peers (and to also feel superior).

So basically this old mindset was present in the game at its onset, and has been perpetuated and spread. My closest friends in game do not like WoW nor its terminology, but it's something we just have to put up with now. Seeing the terms, "Toon" used for character or the term, "Whisper" for Tells, bugs people like us.

In a sense, it's a rejection and hatred of the idea that the game is so mainstream that it's the new WoW. It's also resentment for the fact that ex-WoW players often fall into the camp of not appreciating FFXIV's story(FFXI had very dense stories too). All in all, I think the resentment aspect is experienced by players who've only played FFXIV or have a greater appreciation for it than previous MMOs. There's also the player quality aspect, which ex-WoWs fall into two camps. People who are ex-raiders who will try hard and do decently, and then those who won't give a flying rip if they're wearing toilet paper and swinging a rubber duck. The latter is way more common in my experience.

But I mean, does it not bother anyone when somebody in XIV is brand new to XIV, says they don't need to learn anything because they played WoW for 15 years, speaks in WoW colloquialisms exclusively, and overall does a piss poor job even in the least demanding content? The absolute biggest problems with ex-WoWs is that a lot of them are closed minded to learning XIV.

We may never know, that's for sure.