Going on 2 hours of radio silence after logging in to find my character in GM jail

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

Similar to you all assuming that he deserves the ban with little detail about the situation? Also, my point is simply to raise CONCERN. I can't claim with 100% certainty that they are or are not guilty.... but neither can you.

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i am assuming nothing

i know he was banned for using 3rd party software, which is illegal. He never debates this.

you assume that he was banned for old logs he may have uploaded at some point in time, which may have been reported. You assume he was given an unfair punishment, and you arent even sure what the crime is, because the poster never actually told you what it was. You have virtually no details, even assuming the poster is truthful, and you claim its an unfair sentence.

Then youd know that those wernt there within the first couple of pages which I was around for and that I had in fact read the OP during that time, sorry I have to explain it for you

Please love all my posts too and calm down. Also keep editing your posts while youre at it

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Originally Posted by Halivel

I'm sure there was an interview where Yoshida was asked about ACT and parsers, will search for a link. Main thing is that if there will be official tool for parsering - there is very high chance that players will use it as harassment tool. "Oh you don't have XXXX dps… bye-bye, go away, no you can't go with us looser". Just imagine amount of reports for harassment in this case, it will be everyday 100+ tickets task for GMs. And while this game is pretty much focused on outcoming DPS, Yoshida's statement was that players should not insult each others if there is not enough damage from somebody.

ACT is a grey area. Yes, it is 3d party tool, so technically it's against ToS. However, it doesn't give you any real advantages, so you can use it as long as you don't scream about it in chat and don't harass others because of their damage.

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I guess I just... don't agree with that on principle? I mean, I played WoW for over a decade, and used parsers all the time. Did I see some people use them to be jerks? Yeah. But I saw infinitely more people using them as a tool for self or raid improvement, to find and solve problems. Most random dungeons, the parser never even got mentioned at all. It was used more a tool to hold people accountable than to harass them, at least in my experience. Hard to get away with just sitting half-afk auto attacking for an entire dungeon when everyone can see that you are, for example (yes this is actually a thing that happened to me once).

It just seems like it'd be better than having some people using the tool and getting banned for mentioning it, while anybody not using it is left at a disadvantage. The way it's handled now just... seems odd to me.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Huh? What are you on about?

Okay, let's spell this out for you. 1) The majority of the top World First clear groups all use ACT triggers (telling you about moves before they come). 2) They aren't banned because they aren't stupid. SE has a don't ask, don't tell policy. So as long as those groups don't say anything about it chat or upload a log in chat, and don't have the person using ACT triggers be the one that's recording, then SE is none the wiser.

If you're wondering how I know they use them, that would be because I've personally seen members of at least two groups use them, and others have talked about it on other social media platforms (that I will not link or disclose for obvious reasons).

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Does the trigger tell them how to complete the incoming mechanic? Does it execute it for them?

It sounds to me as though (assuming this actually works) all you get is a reminder that X mechanic is happening. This can already be done by having a raid member speak up and say "Hey everybody Hello World coming up get ready"

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Originally Posted by Physic

i am assuming nothing

i know he was banned for using 3rd party software, which is illegal. He never debates this.

you assume that he was banned for old logs he may have uploaded at some point in time, which may have been reported. You assume he was given an unfair punishment, and you arent even sure what the crime is, because the poster never actually told you what it was. You have virtually no details, even assuming the poster is truthful, and you claim its an unfair sentence.

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You assume sitting in the gaol for hours with no communication and then given a 10 day ban for a first offense is a fair punishment. I disagree with that.

I dont care about parsers either as long as they arent used to harass people, so assuming OP told it as it is yea that would suck. If using it to help get number up should be fine

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Originally Posted by Yllania

Then youd know that those wernt there within the first couple of pages which I was around for and that I had in fact read the OP during that time, sorry I have to explain it for you

Please love all my posts too and calm down. Also keep editing your posts while youre at it

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You are assuming I am angry with you (I am not) I apologize if I hurt your feelings, as that was not my intention. I had no way of knowing if you had seen the screenshots or not, which is why I quoted OP with them for your viewing pleasure.

My feelings arent hurt I just think its funny that you jumped on me for it because you assumed stuff

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

Does the trigger tell them how to complete the incoming mechanic? Does it execute it for them?

It sounds to me as though (assuming this actually works) all you get is a reminder that X mechanic is happening. This can already be done by having a raid member speak up and say "Hey everybody Hello World coming up get ready"

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Yes, the trigger can be modified to say how to do the mechanic. No, it does not move your character for you.

And no, it is not the same as someone doing callouts from memory or even a list they have. Because human error is involved with that. They can misremember, forget to callout, have a glitchy mic, etc. The ACT trigger doesn't have those problems. So yes, it gives a clear and present advantage.

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Originally Posted by Yllania

My feelings arent hurt I just think its funny that you jumped on me for it because you assumed stuff

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Once again it was not my intention to jump on you for anything. It seems likely that tone came through in your reading of that post, that was not intended.

Edit: Also, they originally posted the screen shot before your first post in the thread... so it was actually a legitimate question to ask.

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Originally Posted by Yllania

Yea this is kind of why I dont use it myself even though people keep recommending it. I'm not going to report someone over it but Id rather learn the fight you know?

Again, Watersheild, it wasnt there when I read it otherwise I would have known and I had to have known what the op said to comment on it. Its simple deduction especially when the op itself says it edited. Im not even against the OP.

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Edit 2: Post limit sucks :( Not everyone reads the OP of every forum thread they come in to. I could only base my knowledge of your knowledge of the thread based on your first post in it... which was after the screenshots were posted (based off of time stamps on the edit and the other post they did with them on post #19.) Your first post was on post #36, just over an hour later. Thus, I decided to ask if you had read the OP and link it so that you could see them. Anyway, I think I've done all I can to show my reasoning for the post at this stage. I apologize again if any offense was caused, by the way that post was worded. I should not have addressed you in that overly familiar way.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Yes, the trigger can be modified to say how to do the mechanic. No, it does not move your character for you.

And no, it is not the same as someone doing callouts from memory or even a list they have. Because human error is involved with that. They can misremember, forget to callout, have a glitchy mic, etc. The ACT trigger doesn't have those problems. So yes, it gives a clear and present advantage.

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Yea this is kind of why I dont use it myself even though people keep recommending it. I'm not going to report someone over it but Id rather learn the fight you know?

Again, Watersheild, it wasnt there when I read it otherwise I would have known and I had to have known what the op said to comment on it. Its simple deduction especially when the op itself says it edited. Im not even against the OP.

Youre really breaking the post limit right now just to argue with me and use bad logic and editing just so you wernt wrong arent you. Just admit it, I did.

Plausible deniability.

Q: Anyone parsed that run?
A: I didn't because parsing is against the ToS, but if "someone" here did they probably will upload it to that logs website.

No admission of wrongdoing.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield;4978204du

You assume sitting in the gaol for hours with no communication and then given a 10 day ban for a first offense is a fair punishment. I disagree with that.

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that wouldnt be an assumption, and i never claimed that.

Sitting in jail for 4 hours seems excessive. But i dont really know the details of that aspect. I would guess its an error, but i dont know. Thats not really the part im debating

a 10 day ban for a first offense of third party software use for botting is normal. I don't know if its normal for parse use, but the poster never actually said he wasnt botting.

i wouldnt be surprised if any third party software use was a mandatory 10 day ban though, since it violates the same part of the tos.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Plausible deniability.

Q: Anyone parsed that run?
A: I didn't because parsing is against the ToS, but if "someone" here did they probably will upload it to that logs website.

No admission of wrongdoing.

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so let me ask you a question, do you think uploading logs to a website without players ok is something SE should not action?

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Originally Posted by Physic

so let me ask you a question, do you think uploading logs to a website without players ok is something SE should not action?

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By what he has said it is something they won't action. But if someone says the magic words that they are doing it... then they do. Selective enforcement is not ok. It needs to be enforced, or not enforced, pick one.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

By what he has said it is something they won't action. But if someone says the magic words that they are doing it... then they do. Selective enforcement is not ok. It needs to be enforced, or not enforced, pick one.

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It's not selective enforcement. They enforce any time there is actual evidence to allow them to enforce it. Selective enforcement would be if SE had chat log proof of someone saying they are using a parser/uploading logs, it was reported, and then did nothing about it. And that's not the case at all.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

By what he has said it is something they won't action. But if someone says the magic words that they are doing it... then they do. Selective enforcement is not ok. It needs to be enforced, or not enforced, pick one.

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Whether they can prove it is a different issue, but I'm saying based on what the devs said, do they think the devs would be ok with it.

my assumption is they would not, since they have said

they don't want it public
don't want it to be used to shame players

uploading user data basically would achieve both of the ways they said they don't want it to be used.

There has to be more to this story cause out of all the things that can happen they don't offer up bans like that in game. It isn't the forums where you can be banned for a different opinion so I'm leaning on more details need to be shown before I pick a side. But most of the time people don't offer 100% what happened when they post here so I think it's right that people have questions. As we don't know everything but I believe there was a good reason why OP got a 10 day ban cause again... they just don't throw those out for no reason.

But OP said they were asked to upload the run? So, obviously, while one person was in agreement or more - the others in the training party didn't speak up or say anything and simply reported them when it was discussed. I will never understand this 'shame players' logic. Sure it happens, but how often is someone actually shamed for it? Considering, you know, you'll get banned straight up if you shame someone for their logs or dps without even HAVING involving the whole 'did you upload it.'


Even Yoshida has stated that parses aren't exactly evil. Someone throw that good old link in here where Yoshida talks about parses.

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Originally Posted by Physic

so let me ask you a question, do you think uploading logs to a website without players ok is something SE should not action?

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I would not get in trouble as I never said I'm uploading logs, all I said is that if someone is breaking the ToS they will likely post the logs somewhere else. Unless whoever is uploading them admits it in chat... SE takes no evidence coming from that log site.

Also for what it's worth, I have full freedom to copy the entirety of my battle log into excel, add the numbers and post the results somewhere else, nothing in the game forbids me from doing that.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

While that may be the case, making them sit in a GM Gaol for hours is, quite frankly, inexcusable. And 10 days for a first offense (if this is OP's first offense - I believe they said they've never had any other strikes against them) is a bit harsh, I think. Personally, I think some context should be considered. This isn't a black-and-white kind of scenario.

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Maybe its time SE set an example. Sure it sucks that this person seems nice overall... But the TOS is a legal agreement. And an agreement is an agreement. One which he/she agreed to by playing the game.
3rd party programs have long been stated as being prohibited. There's no real excuse. Regardless of how long the GM left them unattended. Yes that was unprofessional at best, but they still broke the ToS so its still justified.
Tbh, I feel they need harsher punishments for 3rd party program users, be it their 1st offense or their 3rd. Even if it is just a parser. It still provides some kind of advantage over someone else who ISN'T using one, even if it is just a means to show your numbers. PS4 users dont have access to that, so its unfair to them for one. And thats just packet-sniffing parsers. Lets not forget the world of bot/script programs.

All I can picture is some low tier dps who honestly has no business raiding and is also self aware of their less than stellar "play style" who's either too afraid to say "no don't post it I don't want anyone to know how awful I am" or is that petty and spiteful that a tool exists that can show other players how low performing they actually are, saw an opportunity to to get some sick self righteous kicks to get someone banned for silently offending them. But yeah let's throw the freaking book at OP especially for their literal first offense.

It's not like people have gotten away with worse or anything. People who outright abuse the ToS for sport like FC hopping scavengers or people arrogant enough to outright admit to botting who profit off our backs and the backs of the company WHO STILL PLAY THE GAME BTW! But naw lets ban that gross parser guy who used an evil parser in endgame savage content in this CLEARLY non numbers mmo. At least it's good to know where their priorities really are.

I do wonder if 10 days is just sort of their go-to. Has anyone here has a lesser amount? I've only ever had a forum ban, but it was for something incredibly mundane (I had implied that someone's behavior could make them look like a 'bum'*), but it was also a 10 day ban.
*a slightly more colorful word was used here :p


Anyhoo, the 4 hours unattended was a bit unnecessary. I'd like to think they have a better process in place for that. As far as the ban for a third party program? Hey, it's in the ToS. Just like my choice of words, regardless of context, was against the ToS. If things happened exactly as OP has mentioned, it's probably best they just take this as a stern warning and try to avoid it in the future.

For reference from what the OP said was the reason for being reported:

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Originally Posted by orderlyanarchist

reported for 3rd party programs. I used to upload logs on request for folks when teaching savage raids. Guess i got reported for it.

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To be "uploading logs on request when teaching", I assume they were openly offering to do it for whoever they had played with, thinking it's just a helpful thing to do. Which it is, but it's also officially against the game rules (whether it should be or not).

It's possible that they got reported multiple times by the same person or different people before getting called in over it, which might explain the harder penalty at an "applying strict rules" level.


None of that is to say that this has been handled well by the GM, but it could explain the penalty.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

Someone throw that good old link in here where Yoshida talks about parses.

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Found. Starts at about 6:00.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-WXYg-S05U

Skill of the player he says and how is one expected to have any skill if said skill is never gauged by the game or the player is NEVER given pause to question their own skill and engage them to improve? I know this was an old interview but still his words contradict the entire state of the game especially when the only skill wall in the game is optional.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Meanwhile, hundreds of players are busy being involved in actual cheating via DoL/H bots and hunt sniffers but the GMs can't/won't do squat about them, nor will the STF.

It's stupid as heck to get a 10 day suspension simply because you mentioned a third party program and someone decided to report you. That's deserving of a warning at worst for a first time offense.

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110% THIS!!!

What is odds that Yoshida's team uses third party programs when testing out there new content. One here just posted all top raiders use them. I guess they better ban all the top raiding groups then if there using them.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

I would not get in trouble as I never said I'm uploading logs, all I said is that if someone is breaking the ToS they will likely post the logs somewhere else. Unless whoever is uploading them admits it in chat... SE takes no evidence coming from that log site.

Also for what it's worth, I have full freedom to copy the entirety of my battle log into excel, add the numbers and post the results somewhere else, nothing in the game forbids me from doing that.

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the key here would be that logs tracks the names of other players right? If you edit the names i doubt they would care, but if you were uploading it to a public website which saves data on all players, i think they could have a problem with that. Assuming they could prove someone was responsible.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

Maybe its time SE set an example. Sure it sucks that this person seems nice overall... But the TOS is a legal agreement. And an agreement is an agreement. One which he/she agreed to by playing the game.
3rd party programs have long been stated as being prohibited. There's no real excuse. Regardless of how lung the GM left them unattended. Yes that was unprofessional at best, but they still broke the ToS so its still justified.
Tbh, I feel they need harsher punishments for 3rd party program users, be it their 1st offense or their 3rd. Even if it is just a parser. It still provides some kind of advantage over someone else who ISN'T using one, even if it is just a means to show your numbers. PS4 users dont have access to that, so its unfair to them for one. And thats just packet-sniffing parsers. Lets not forget the world of bot/script programs.

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Bruh. There's an EASY solution to this. a SOLO parser built IN GAME for EVERYONE to use. No one would be in the dark again, everyone would be on an even playing field. And no one would have to know anyone else's damage since everyone would just use that instead of fflogs or w/e. Jesus.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

For reference from what the OP said was the reason for being reported:



To be "uploading logs on request when teaching", I assume they were openly offering to do it for whoever they had played with, thinking it's just a helpful thing to do. Which it is, but it's also officially against the game rules (whether it should be or not).

It's possible that they got reported multiple times by the same person or different people before getting called in over it, which might explain the harder penalty at an "applying strict rules" level.


None of that is to say that this has been handled well by the GM, but it could explain the penalty.

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he didnt say he was banned for uploading logs, he says he guesses he was banned because he used to upload logs.

what he stated was that he was banned for 3rd party program use.

he never says the gm told him he was reported for harrassment about logs, or for using a parser. To be honest this seems unlikely, since the GMs usually corroborate 3rd party use.

I dont think saying in chat i'm a bot would lead to a 10 day ban, without them verifying it.

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

Bruh. There's an EASY solution to this. a SOLO parser built IN GAME for EVERYONE to use. No one would be in the dark again, everyone would be on an even playing field. And no one would have to know anyone else's damage since everyone would just use that instead of fflogs or w/e. Jesus.

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Except this isn't why people use fflogs. For someone who isn't a "super bad casual" I'm surprised you don't know this. Fflogs when used correctly is about more than just numbers. Numbers tell you very little other than "can do rotation correctly, didn't die, possibly got fed buffs". Especially on jobs outside healers that can raise..


Also, numbers are meaningless without a comparison. If you saw you did 20 dps, and there was nothing else. And you always saw you did 20 dps, you think "I'm I'm pretty consistent, that must mean I'm good".

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Originally Posted by ElazulHP

Quote Originally Posted by KageTokage View Post
Meanwhile, hundreds of players are busy being involved in actual cheating via DoL/H bots and hunt sniffers but the GMs can't/won't do squat about them, nor will the STF.

It's stupid as heck to get a 10 day suspension simply because you mentioned a third party program and someone decided to report you. That's deserving of a warning at worst for a first time offense.


110% THIS!!!

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or maybe, just maybe he was banned for botting, and claimed it was because he used to upload parses back in the day.

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

Bruh. There's an EASY solution to this. a SOLO parser built IN GAME for EVERYONE to use. No one would be in the dark again, everyone would be on an even playing field. And no one would have to know anyone else's damage since everyone would just use that instead of fflogs or w/e. Jesus.

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Yet they would either hack it or demand numbers, so thats pointless, sadly...

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Originally Posted by Vespar

Maybe its time SE set an example. Sure it sucks that this person seems nice overall... But the TOS is a legal agreement. And an agreement is an agreement. One which he/she agreed to by playing the game.
3rd party programs have long been stated as being prohibited. There's no real excuse. Regardless of how lung the GM left them unattended. Yes that was unprofessional at best, but they still broke the ToS so its still justified.
Tbh, I feel they need harsher punishments for 3rd party program users, be it their 1st offense or their 3rd. Even if it is just a parser. It still provides some kind of advantage over someone else who ISN'T using one, even if it is just a means to show your numbers. PS4 users dont have access to that, so its unfair to them for one. And thats just packet-sniffing parsers. Lets not forget the world of bot/script programs.

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The developers watched Twitch streamers progging through both Ultimates. Some of those streams had one very visible. Why weren’t these people “made an example of”? I also redirect you to my post about how the DoH/DoL botters on my server have been reported since the expansion dropped, yet they’re still here botting away.

How is knowing your damage an “unfair advantage”?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Except this isn't why people use fflogs. For someone who isn't a "super bad casual" I'm surprised you don't know this. Fflogs when used correctly is about more than just numbers. Numbers tell you very little other than "can do rotation correctly, didn't die, possibly got fed buffs". Especially on jobs outside healers that can raise..


Also, numbers are meaningless without a comparison. If you saw you did 20 dps, and there was nothing else. And you always saw you did 20 dps, you think "I'm I'm pretty consistent, that must mean I'm good".

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Oh? And beyond comparing your numbers to others in the same category, to see what they were doing to get a higher parse, what else are they for? Don't kid yourself. Fflogs and its primary function, paired along with XIV analysis is to diagnose what you can be doing to pump out more dps, what you can trim as far as bad rotational errors and replace them with a more optimal rotation. That, and seeing when to use raid buffs in the most optimal way to again, squeeze out more dps and get higher numbers, is the primary function of the program.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The developers watched Twitch streamers progging through both Ultimates. Some of those streams had one very visible. Why weren’t these people “made an example of”? I also redirect you to my post about how the DoH/DoL botters on my server have been reported since the expansion dropped, yet they’re still here botting away.

How is knowing your damage an “unfair advantage”?

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first off, they have said their main beef is harrassment, and publicizing. Mostly based off player reporting. They arent going to hunt down people for parsers. Its also against policy to post chatlogs with names of players in public, this isnt really surprising.


Also, I'm not sure why you believe the poster's version of events, knowing as you do, they generally seem pretty not hardcore about this. 95% chance there is more to the story.

however, its the poster's and SE's right to keep that between each other, i dont think you will ever know the real story.

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Originally Posted by Physic

the key here would be that logs tracks the names of other players right? If you edit the names i doubt they would care, but if you were uploading it to a public website which saves data on all players, i think they could have a problem with that. Assuming they could prove someone was responsible.

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You're missing the point. Anyone uploading anything anywhere is safe because SE can't police what people do in other websites, it doesn't matter who takes an issue to what. If you upload a log they can't do anything because they can't prove you're the one who uploaded it, they can't take down the website because those are just numbers that can't be copyrighted, they can only get you if you admit in-game in your own chat log that you are using 3rd party programs.

GMs can only ban people based one evidence they can actually access within the game, anything that happens outside the game doesn't matter unless you link yourself to that.

So the message is: play it safe, learn what is plausible deniability, don't admit to anything in chat.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

You're missing the point. Anyone uploading anything anywhere is safe because SE can't police what people do in other websites, it doesn't matter who takes an issue to what. If you upload a log they can't do anything because they can't prove you're the one who uploaded it, they can't take down the website because those are just numbers that can't be copyrighted, they can only get you if you admit in-game in your own chat log that you are using 3rd party programs.

GMs can only ban people based one evidence they can actually access within the game, anything that happens outside the game doesn't matter unless you link yourself to that.

So the message is: play it safe, learn what is plausible deniability, don't admit to anything in chat.

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my point is less, can they prove it, and more is it against the spirit of how they want things to go.

point being, if you get caught doing something, Yoshida says is the main reason they dislike parsers, i wouldnt expect no drama.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

Maybe its time SE set an example. Sure it sucks that this person seems nice overall... But the TOS is a legal agreement. And an agreement is an agreement. One which he/she agreed to by playing the game.
3rd party programs have long been stated as being prohibited. There's no real excuse. Regardless of how lung the GM left them unattended. Yes that was unprofessional at best, but they still broke the ToS so its still justified.
Tbh, I feel they need harsher punishments for 3rd party program users, be it their 1st offense or their 3rd. Even if it is just a parser. It still provides some kind of advantage over someone else who ISN'T using one, even if it is just a means to show your numbers. PS4 users dont have access to that, so its unfair to them for one. And thats just packet-sniffing parsers. Lets not forget the world of bot/script programs.

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This will never happen. Why? Because FFlogs ultimately keeps Savage alive and the devs know it. Without FFlogs, what purpose does clearing Savage multiple times have? Why even care about obtaining i400 gear? It's wholly irrelevant since it only helps clear an encounter faster yet you can longer actually see any improvements. So what's the point? Furthermore, if parses were somehow banned to the point literally no one could gather that information—a highly unlikely scenario—you effectively kill raiding. Why? How are statics supposed to recruit when they have no way of knowing your performance? Ultimate not only demands mechanical awareness but overall high DPS. Without a tool to read this information, people couldn't decipher whether that Black Mage they picked up was pulling 9,000 DPS or 5,000.

"Well, they boss isn't dying! That's how you know." Okay... but how do you know who isn't contributing enough? And therein lies the problem. You wouldn't, which makes recruitment a nightmare.

Regardless, the aforementioned will not happen because even if FFlogs were banned tomorrow. People will simply make an underground tool they don't publicly spread. I suspect the dev's approach is "better a devil you know than one you don't."

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

Bruh. There's an EASY solution to this. a SOLO parser built IN GAME for EVERYONE to use. No one would be in the dark again, everyone would be on an even playing field. And no one would have to know anyone else's damage since everyone would just use that instead of fflogs or w/e. Jesus.

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People would simply demand you post your numbers publicly, and refusal would be taken as a sign you were lying. Furthermore, as Valkrie said, you need a point of reference for a parse to matter. I cannot improve my DRG or WAR numbers without directly comparing them against better DRGs and WARs. I can't "trim" mistakes unless I know I'm making them, which a solo parse will not tell you.