Why are standards seen as a crime in this game?

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

as a tank i only dodge because i don't trust the healer lol

But when I'm the healer it really doesn't matter 2 me i can handle them standing in 50 aoes non stop and still have 4k+mp to deal dmg with lol

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And that mindset will forever make it harder for everyone you party with. You've been made aware and that's all I'm obliged to say. Best of luck and enjoy the game =]

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

But when I'm the healer it really doesn't matter 2 me i can handle them standing in 50 aoes non stop and still have 4k+mp to deal dmg with lol

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I'd actually wager it doesn't matter most times because they simply don't get hit that much, because oddly enough most people aren't going to just stand in easily avoidable damage for absolutely no reason. You believe you can handle it but you simply can't. If the tank in tsukiyomi stood in every AoE that dropped they'd be dead. It doesn't matter if you're shielding them for a piddly 8-20k when they've got 10 vuln stacks and don't have an invuln cooldown to save them.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

I'd actually wager it doesn't matter most times because they simply don't get hit that much, because oddly enough most people aren't going to just stand in easily avoidable damage for absolutely no reason. You believe you can handle it but you simply can't. If the tank in tsukiyomi stood in every AoE that dropped they'd be dead. It doesn't matter if you're shielding them for a piddly 8-20k when they've got 10 vuln stacks and don't have an invuln cooldown to save them.

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big differnce in a aoe that puts stacks which u can tell by ground effects white and yellow and a red circle.. Red circles can always be eaten as nothing ground effects cant lol

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

While true, I've never seen a community actively embrace it like the FFXIV community has.

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I'm starting to wonder if I have consistently weird luck? I keep seeing phrases like this in the forums, but in all my years playing I very rarely see people be both remarkably bad and push back against the idea of playing better. In my experience, when a player's poor performance is pointed out, they usually say nothing, deny it or simply apologise. A few times I have seen someone have a strop. I have only once seen the "you don't pay my sub" response. Yet to read OP's first post you would think that this is a common occurrence.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I'm starting to wonder if I have consistently weird luck? I keep seeing phrases like this in the forums, but in all my years playing I very rarely see people be both remarkably bad and push back against the idea of playing better. In my experience, when a player's poor performance is pointed out, they usually say nothing, deny it or simply apologise. A few times I have seen someone have a strop. I have only once seen the "you don't pay my sub" response. Yet to read OP's first post you would think that this is a common occurrence.

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It's mostly a common topic on these very forums. You don't get debates like this in other communities nearly to the same level that FFXIV has. You will literally get 60 page threads complaining about parsing and healer DPS in this community, while other games will have most people just shrug their shoulders and move on, because the very design of most other games includes a number of factors that makes it harder for the average player to analyze what contributes to differences in damage numbers between players.

But FFXIV's damage numbers are so small and tightly crunched together in comparison that player skill level contributes far more to DPS than anything else, to an incredibly obvious level that even people who don't parse can probably guess how much someone is contributing at a quick glance. (I suppose it also helps that said other games usually have other design problems that drown out any discussion on these kinds of topics. FFXIV is stable enough that these topics are really one of the few things the community really cares about enough to debate.)

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I'm starting to wonder if I have consistently weird luck? I keep seeing phrases like this in the forums, but in all my years playing I very rarely see people be both remarkably bad and push back against the idea of playing better. In my experience, when a player's poor performance is pointed out, they usually say nothing, deny it or simply apologise. A few times I have seen someone have a strop. I have only once seen the "you don't pay my sub" response. Yet to read OP's first post you would think that this is a common occurrence.

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My experience mirrors yours. There have been a few incidents where people behaved in such a manor, but most of the time the community has been great. Makes me wonder if the people having the issues are doing something to facilitate those bad responses.

Expectations lead to great disappointments! lol I found myself enjoying the game more when I stopped expecting better from players and just played the game with friends for harder content.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

big differnce in a aoe that puts stacks which u can tell by ground effects white and yellow and a red circle.. Red circles can always be eaten as nothing ground effects cant lol

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Why yes there is a big difference in AoEs that apply stacks compared to one that won't kill you outright. You never made any distinction. And if they can dodge the one that applies stacks... logically they can at least try to dodge the one that doesn't. Also there are definitely 'red circles' (personally I see them more as orange) that apply vulnerability on you so I have no idea where you picked up that they can 'always be eaten'. Hell there are red/orange circles that will apply a staggering damage down debuff on you too which negates the whole idea behind DPS-upkeep.

I mean I realize I'm arguing against someone who has no idea what they're doing but I just don't want misinformation spreading here.

Because you need to carry me without complaining, pal.

I think it's mostly because of HOW people give advice. A lot of people are just plain rude to newbie players. Treat them how you'd like to be treated and things shouldn't get toxic. I personally never really had an issue because I always try to be friendly.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

This attitude is absolutely not unique to this game at all. I have seen this stuff in literally every multi-player game I played. There are always players who push back against having to meet a standard. This is just how some people are. People can be lazy or selfish in all aspects of life. Stop phrasing it as if it only happens in FFXIV.

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It happens in other games as well, however I've never encountered a community that embraces it as much as FF14 does. MMOs used to very different than they are now honestly, the standards for the average player was much higher than it is now. WoW is the best example of this, people used to find raids via trade chat and hop in 40-mans, wipe all the time but nobody cared. Why? Because everyone was trying their best. Everyone was actively trying to improve, find that new little thing to help them perform better. Yes they would get angry because of wipes, but not at each other. Rather we would get mad at the difficulty of the raid and constantly try to find what we're doing wrong so we can better ourselves.

If you wipe in a raid in FF14 the first thing everyone does is scream at each other and blame each other rather than try to figure out why the wipe happened and how to fix it. No one tries to better themselves, it's easier to blame everyone else for everything.

I don't see this in most MMOs lately, especially FF14. People are terrible, they don't know the basics of the game at maximum level, they don't understand the classes they play, they don't try to learn anything, they don't seek out knowledge, information, they don't seek out stronger players to help them out and improve. They just sit there like vegetables and expect everyone else to carry them. And if you call them out on that, they respond with hostility, you get called a variety of insults and yelled at.

When did the standard become so low that we can't even expect people to understand their own class that they chose to play or understand the basics of the game by the time they reach maximum level?

Honestly...no one is asking you, or me, or anyone else to be the top players, nobody wants that, all we want is for you and everyone else to at least understand the basics of the game you play and the class you chose to play by the time you are maximum level. Why is this seen like such an impossible "demand" from players? Why is it that in this community, being expected to show average skill level is the same as asking you to build a spaceship and travel to another galaxy?

Edit: The fact that the standard for players has reached such a low level that expecting people to understand the basics and their own class is an almost impossible request nowadays just makes me sad.

As a healer/tank on endgame I generally find I learned better via baptism by fire. (Once I actually experience a mechanic it clicks in my brain far better than watching other people play.) I would warn people that I was new to such and such and work hard to ensure I didn't mire anyone down overmuch or I would politely leave. But this isnt about me.

During those times I have found that nobody plays as well as they think they do. Are some people more competent than others? Absolutely. And yet these same people that think they're good are dying just as poorly as the "New" to the instance people.

And I watch as people loose their frellin minds and start berating other peoples performance despite performing poorly themselves. Those are also groups I will just quietly leave, I dont want to deal with the drama.

As long as I'm actually trying to improve I do improve went through Omega Alphascape V4 without dying my last go around and I was happy for it. It meant for myself at least that I had actually memorized the fight to the point that I could in fact be ready for some random things to happen in it and come out on top.

The point I'm trying to make is you cant just go in assuming that players are purposely bad. That will just hurt your outlook if you see where the mess up is happening dont call the individual player out just say okay so these are the mechanics this is what needs such and such as an in general and you'll find they respond and act better.

You've apparently never played any of Wargaming's releases. Ever hear of the Dunning-Kruger effect? It's in full force in World of Tanks and World of Warships. But heavon forbid you try to give advice - they'll land an artillery shell in your head or torpedo you in response!

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

When did the standard become so low that we can't even expect people to understand their own class that they chose to play or understand the basics of the game by the time they reach maximum level?

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In my experience literally never. I can count on one hand the amount of max level bad players I met who expected this sort of treatment. Only slightly more if I include those from before max level. And no one around them agreed with it.

You must have horrendous luck or you're greatly exaggerating. I don't feel like we play the same game.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

My experience mirrors yours. There have been a few incidents where people behaved in such a manor, but most of the time the community has been great. Makes me wonder if the people having the issues are doing something to facilitate those bad responses.

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I suspect similar.

Because standards are subjective. Subjectiveness often leads to disagreement, and disagreement often leads to conflict. It's just a natural part of dealing with other people, which is kind of the point of an MMO game. I put up with you, you put up with me, and hopefully we make it all work out. If it doesn't, then we all take the L and try again later.

Carebear community maybe?

It's a similar thing on the XIV sub, good thing we have the sh*tpost sub too.

It's one of the reasons I almost don't say anything in game anymore as I feel that I can get banned for just sneezing right now.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Because standards are subjective. Subjectiveness often leads to disagreement, and disagreement often leads to conflict. It's just a natural part of dealing with other people, which is kind of the point of an MMO game. I put up with you, you put up with me, and hopefully we make it all work out. If it doesn't, then we all take the L and try again later.

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lol the tank often screws the healer with the cornor bs large pull fine all good but if your not going to pop your cds defensive you better not pull extra large groups... plain and simple the cd defenses is the difference between 3k mp and 9k mp on healers .

plus there are many tanks that out right keep pulling more than their hp can handle running out of range to keep grabbing then blaming healer lol sorry but the pace is set based on the effectiveness of the healer lol

Slow pulling tanks, heals that stand like idiots with 90% mana instead of dpsing.

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Originally Posted by FFgame

Slow pulling tanks, heals that stand like idiots with 90% mana instead of dpsing.

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BLMs that stand in bad cause mah deeps bruh.

BLMs that stand away from the group in Omega and need rezzed again cause Mah Deeps Bruh.

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

Carebear community maybe?

It's a similar thing on the XIV sub, good thing we have the sh*tpost sub too.

It's one of the reasons I almost don't say anything in game anymore as I feel that I can get banned for just sneezing right now.

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Wasn't that such as cesspit that even the normal reddit had to cut all ties with it?

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Wasn't that such as cesspit that even the normal reddit had to cut all ties with it?

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What makes it a cesspit? Nothing that sub does is offensive.

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

Basically, people really want to play games without actually PLAYING it.

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Pretty much. I didn't want to believe there were people that only press one button, but they exist & they should not be carried, period.

I routinely try to look up things on fights and learn what I'm doing, but I'm pretty sure this thread has dissuaded me from trying to raid here. It's depressing to me how much play has changed in the last 15 years.

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Originally Posted by Lissyl

I routinely try to look up things on fights and learn what I'm doing, but I'm pretty sure this thread has dissuaded me from trying to raid here. It's depressing to me how much play has changed in the last 15 years.

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If you are interested give it a try. The views here are way stronger than you encounter in game usually.

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Originally Posted by Lissyl

I routinely try to look up things on fights and learn what I'm doing, but I'm pretty sure this thread has dissuaded me from trying to raid here. It's depressing to me how much play has changed in the last 15 years.

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It's fine if you go into things blind. Just say you're new and MOSTLY, at least 1 person tries to explain mechanics. If not, then it can't be on you if you die to something that isn't obvious. I don't think the mentality of "look it up before" that some people have is right either, let new people enjoy and learn the mechanics.

All this thread is about are people that literally aren't even trying...

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

It's fine if you go into things blind. Just say you're new and MOSTLY, at least 1 person tries to explain mechanics. If not, then it can't be on you if you die to something that isn't obvious. I don't think the mentality of "look it up before" that some people have is right either, let new people enjoy and learn the mechanics.

All this thread is about are people that literally aren't even trying...

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That, like so much else, is all about reading the room. If you join a savage farm blind, people are justified in their annoyance. If they join a fresh learning party blind, someone being annoyed about that is unjustified. Clear party blind is a grey area though.

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Originally Posted by Lissyl

I routinely try to look up things on fights and learn what I'm doing, but I'm pretty sure this thread has dissuaded me from trying to raid here. It's depressing to me how much play has changed in the last 15 years.

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Trying to raid things like Savage for example usually goes decently well, at the very least you can find 1 or 2 players that are actually trying to improve.

The thread is regarding the type of people who do nothing at all and expect to be carried through everything. If you say you're new, you usually get 1 or 2 people that are willing to sit by you and explain the mechanics.

Issue is we have people that don't even have the decency to do that, they'd rather just cause wipe after wipe after wipe and insist it's someone elses fault.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

Why are standards a crime? Why do people think it's acceptable to waste everyone's time by wiping a raid repeatedly and when offered advice they respond with toxicity? This is a pretty common thing, and i find it mind boggling.

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I'm pretty sure it involves the fact that being called out or proven wrong about something in the typical level of aggression displayed by frustrated players triggers the area of the brain associated with physical pain, meaning that they likely won't learn from their mistakes due to backfire effect and will keep doing them.

Honestly, I usually think it's by the grace of god that some players know how to tie their shoes, let alone know how to be competent in whatever content I'm doing. That's why I expect the worst at the start and adjust accordingly.

You'll always have those players that refuse to learn sadly. Feedback (depending on the wording) Shouldn't be seen as a personal attack. I've been playing this game since 2015
(this is an alt account) and I've seen far more positive feedback given to players than negative. Now when that feedback is ignored or the person trying to give help gets insulted, then things can go negative.

I recently had a tank in a duty roulette who would not use flash or use cool downs. When the healer said something about it then tank replied " you're not my dad!" the healer replied with "fine Just stay a bad tank". We eventually had to kick him sadly, no matter what we said or how we said it he just wouldn't listen.Until people stop seeing feedback as a personal attack, I'm afraid this will always be an issue.

It is because when you first start people expect them to know it all right away. When I first started people were just plain mean. Tried to explain I had just started they did not care. There needs to be a learning curve for people, esp now with the tomes and auto-60, it just makes people less knowledgeable about their trade. I recall learning the hard way as a mage and that long slog from 40-50 seemed forever. Yes they should LEARN their trade, but also please help newbie players without condescension and insults. Makes for a better player base if people could stop being so nasty to people in game.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

It's completely mind boggling that this is considered acceptable by a large part of the community.

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It's not that it's acceptable; it's that it's not worth making a fuss over. If people get hit by things, heal them. If people die, solo it yourself. Make up for their shortcomings with your own skill. No need to make a fuss over it; if they want to improve they will and if they want to underperform then, it's whatever if it's not extreme, savage or ultimate.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

if you criticize their actions because they don't understand basic game mechanics at pretty high levels if not max level itself, respond with insults, toxicity, "you don't pay my sub", "i'm new so i'm entitled to wiping raids because im learning", "i play how i want to", "you don't control my account" and so on

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They aren't wrong about these things. If they want to learn they will go and seek out knowledge. It's their sub!

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

And if you don't say anything to them, you get called a toxic elitist for choosing not to help them.

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Never experienced this. If they ask for help, give it politely otherwise leave them be - simple solution I think.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

In the vast majority of other MMOs, if you are a bad player, you will be called a bad player, people will try to help, you are given the opportunity to improve and stop being a bad player.

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Those MMOs are not very chilled out then. They need to chill out. It's a game that you play for fun in your spare time. Shouldn't take it so seriously, as if said person is a qualified engineer and doing an incompetent job at engineering. It's just a game. You and I may play too much and take it seriously like that but consider that the majority do not. As long as they are having fun getting hit by mechanics always, it's whatever (if it's not extreme, savage or ultimate).

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It's not that it's acceptable; it's that it's not worth making a fuss over. If people get hit by things, heal them. If people die, solo it yourself. Make up for their shortcomings with your own skill. No need to make a fuss over it; if they want to improve they will and if they want to underperform then, it's whatever if it's not extreme, savage or ultimate.

They aren't wrong about these things. If they want to learn they will go and seek out knowledge. It's their sub!

Never experienced this. If they ask for help, give it politely otherwise leave them be - simple solution I think.

Those MMOs are not very chilled out then. They need to chill out. It's a game that you play for fun in your spare time. Shouldn't take it so seriously, as if said person is a qualified engineer and doing an incompetent job at engineering. It's just a game. You and I may play too much and take it seriously like that but consider that the majority do not. As long as they are having fun getting hit by mechanics always, it's whatever (if it's not extreme, savage or ultimate).

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Exactly!

More important be able to put yourself in the other player shoes and consider in real life possibilities that might affect one player concentration while preforming a game task or any other task for that matter, just a few examples that might interfere with one person concentration: ADHD as a result of a congenital or non congenital problem, easily exhausted due to N factors, under emotional stress or anxiety, receiving temporary palliative treatment based on herb that changes the CNS, other therapies based on psychotropics and the list goes on.
Since we do not have a way to know what's going on with said players you can solve that situation by joining yourself a guild and do the Extreme, Savage and Ultimate content with a static and if its really extremely and easily upsetting to you players have a different rotation than yours use party finder to find players who use your rotation for that specific role.

However, would agree with OP if SE the company itself had officially released a guide on how to do every job rotation ideally if even the company itself give the player the freedom to choose the rotation they want and since this isn't a game designed to knowing all content players exclusively, or else the MMO would not even survive these many years, not sure why this drama even exists.
Either you like it or not you have a big percentage of "casuals" that support the game.

Keep in mind howevel youl pelfect standax dps, hear, tank lotation might not be the most pelfect to the next serf-entitred standax prayer.

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Originally Posted by Celestene

It is because when you first start people expect them to know it all right away. When I first started people were just plain mean. Tried to explain I had just started they did not care. There needs to be a learning curve for people, esp now with the tomes and auto-60, it just makes people less knowledgeable about their trade. I recall learning the hard way as a mage and that long slog from 40-50 seemed forever. Yes they should LEARN their trade, but also please help newbie players without condescension and insults. Makes for a better player base if people could stop being so nasty to people in game.

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If you're first starting I'll break my back bending over backwards to teach you the basics. The problem, though, is the people that go past level 70 and still act like they're a starry-eyed level 30 novice, with a fresh jobstone.

Ultimately, if I look at someone in the party and I wish I could just replace them with my chocobo companion at 70 I'd rather just votekick/replace them than deal with their apathy. They're wasted effort by that point, clearly.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

Exactly!

More important be able to put yourself in the other player shoes and consider in real life possibilities that might affect one player concentration while preforming a game task or any other task for that matter, just a few examples that might interfere with one person concentration: ADHD as a...

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The above are considerations I am under no obligation to consider nor care about. They are tangential to the player being able to fill their specified role.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The above are considerations I am under no obligation to consider nor care about. They are tangential to the player being able to fill their specified role.

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Yes that's a case if you have enough humanity in yourself to do it but even if you don't the mentioned suggestions is still valid you can use party finder to look for players who pecifically play your WaAaAaYyYyY or with spexial standax hear, dps, tank lotations and only team with them.

Instead of making such unnecessary posts.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

Yes that's a case if you have enough humanity in yourself to do it.

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The fact that I have a pulse is enough to confirm my humanity. If players need a psychotherapy dungeon party, that seems niche enough to be a bang-on popular pf.

With the greatest respect, leave luggage at the door for random parties.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The fact that I have a pulse is enough to confirm my humanity. If players need a psychotherapy dungeon party, that seems niche enough to be a bang-on popular pf.

With the greatest respect, leave luggage at the door for random parties.

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Again? Am not stating that all cases are of psychotherapy am stating that many other situations can affect one players concentration maybe you should do a few psychotherapy sessions so you take the jobs standax lotations less selious and realn youlserf to be ress disappointed or concelned with what othels pray theil jobs in game.

You can solve that situation using party finder or even joining a guild with a static team, instead of this unnecessary posts debates because is just ridiculous.

The day SE release officially a guide with dps/heal/tank rotations will agree with you about standards until that day this is just another Monday.

You might want also to review your humanitarian concept there.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

Again? Am not stating that all cases are of psychotherapy am stating that many other situations can affect one players concentration maybe you should do a few psychotherapy sessions so you take the jobs standax lotations less selious and realn youlserf to be ress disappointed or concelned with what othels pray theil jobs in game.

You can solve that situation using party finder or even joining a guild with a static team, instead of this unnecessary posts debates because is just ridiculous.

The day SE release officially a guide with dps/heal/tank rotations will agree with you about standards until that day this is just another Monday.

You might want also to review your humanitarian concept there.

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No situation outside of the game is relevant to the party of a player being able or unable to fill their specified role. Perhaps a group of FC mates or friends would be willing to offer consideration to these players, but others are under no obligation to extend the same.

The resources for good play are already in the game: the job gauge (for many jobs), the tooltips, and not standing in the fire. The rest is up to the player. That player can speed up their optimization by reading guides outside of the game, but it is not essential for the basics.

This late into the expansion, though, there's only two ways to play a job: the right way and the wrong way. The jobs are solved, and either a player goes through a very long process of optimizing everything and theorycrafting the hell out of it only to throw it all away in a few months... or they read a guide for the solution they'd arrive at eventually, anyway.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

Exactly!

More important be able to put yourself in the other player shoes and consider in real life possibilities that might affect one player concentration while preforming a game task or any other task for that matter, just a few examples that might interfere with one person concentration: ADHD as a result of a congenital or non congenital problem, easily exhausted due to N factors, under emotional stress or anxiety, receiving temporary palliative treatment based on herb that changes the CNS, other therapies based on psychotropics and the list goes on.
Since we do not have a way to know what's going on with said players you can solve that situation by joining yourself a guild and do the Extreme, Savage and Ultimate content with a static and if its really extremely and easily upsetting to you players have a different rotation than yours use party finder to find players who use your rotation for that specific role.

However, would agree with OP if SE the company itself had officially released a guide on how to do every job rotation ideally if even the company itself give the player the freedom to choose the rotation they want and since this isn't a game designed to knowing all content players exclusively, or else the MMO would not even survive these many years, not sure why this drama even exists.
Either you like it or not you have a big percentage of "casuals" that support the game.

Keep in mind howevel youl pelfect standax dps, hear, tank lotation might not be the most pelfect to the next serf-entitred standax prayer.

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So are you saying that we as players should we assume that outside factors are the reason someone is unable to do something in a video game? As you said we have no way of knowing so why should we simply assume those factors? If they are a factor the burden should be put on the person with the issue to bring it up. No player should should be expected to walk on egg shells because another player might have some outside issue that results in certain outcomes.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

Keep in mind howevel youl pelfect standax dps, hear, tank lotation might not be the most pelfect to the next serf-entitred standax prayer.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

mentioned suggestions is still valid you can use party finder to look for players who pecifically play your WaAaAaYyYyY or with spexial standax hear, dps, tank lotations and only team with them.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

so you take the jobs standax lotations less selious and realn youlserf to be ress disappointed or concelned with what othels pray theil jobs in game.

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I’m sorry. I really don’t mean to be that person. I’m trying to follow your line of thinking, but are you typing like this on purpose?

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

That shouldn't be relevant that is your personal option and on your personal options no one else is entitled to comment on, can only add that fortunately there are still those who offer consideration to such situations and for you to let them do their way and mind your own gaming, simple as live and let live.

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And they're welcome to do so, at their discretion. But no one is under any obligation to do the same, and that is really not an opinion.

I think what Awha is pointing out is, a normal human's base response to someone doing poorly is "They can do better." You're advocating, essentially, to have shut lips because if they're not doing well they could be brain-damaged. Even if that's not what you said, that is what it comes off as to the observer.