The "Wow Refugee's" impact on the FFXIV Community?

I used to play WOW from 2004-2011 until i dropped it for XIV in 2011.
So I have pretty decent experience in both, but seeing as I havent seen how the WOW community has changed after I quit, I cannot say. But it doesnt matter what game you play or used to play. It all comes down to the person and their attitude towards other fellow players
If someone behaves badly in RL they will bring that into the game, and since videogames comes with anonymity, they also become worse.

I do not care what game you come from. If you are nice to me, ill be nice to you. If you act like a brat, i'll treat you like a brat ;)

Why people would act toxic towards others player who shares the same interest in the game, is beyond me.
I treat every player ingame as if I talk to the player face to face in real life and with respect :)

The only impact I am seeing on the community is that Crystal is rapidly filling up with experienced raiders looking to join groups. Mostly because the other teo dataservers are often locked. They just lack FFXIV raid experience.

One other thing I note is that they tend to be super nice because one reason they got burned out on WoW was the community there. They came here because they were told it was friendly, which it generally is, and they know more than most how valuable that is.

So... I am glad for them. We just need to get them to max level before they give up and go to ESO or something... ;)

So far, I haven't noticed much change really. I do notice prior wow players tend to move in a group, like if two friends leave or a large social circle they all leave and come to FF14. That being said a lot more conversations in which I have no idea what they are talking about. Like inside WoW jokes about bad classes. I dont mind, I just listen. Other than that, not much of a difference really.

I'm a 14 year WoW vet healer main and refugee as of 2 months ago. I just want to address the toxicity topic... FYI I'm not hard core I haven't even had a steady raid group in like 7 years. I just ad hoc do stuff with folks on my server.

I personally left WoW due to the toxic nature of people especially in dungeon/raid finder (roulettes). Chat and discord just got hard to function in. I'm a relatively decent healer main so I didn't take too much abuse but I couldn't sit there any longer after a long day of work and see/listen to my fellow community get abused. It's sad because I liked the game. Oh well.

I love FFXIV, the community is generally "unashamed to be nice." I always ask for help because I don't want to spoil the story by looking up fights, etc and I've never had anyone except once be rude. You wouldn't have this in WoW. There is no talking and if you try people just don't respond. Look at the twitch community around WoW lately, it's just extremely toxic spend 5 minutes looking at the top steamer and you'll get a feel for the culture around WoW and why those of us who don't fit in anymore are trying other MMOs. I've dealt with one very toxic group, likely a FC group in in a full party Alexander story raid who kicked me for being a sprout even though I was healing on point and their tank kept wiping because they didn't understand the mechanic.

Shrug... imagine giving up 14 years of glamours, achievements and knowledge because you can't handle the community. It sucks :P. I'm lucky I found a great FC in literally hours after naming my character. I love WHM and the MSQs. I regret I skipped the RR MSQ with a potion to play with my fiance who was a few months ahead of me but I'll do it later on. HW and SB have been a blast to level though!! Can't wait to see what end game is like.

My advice to the OG FF players, if people are toxic call it out, shut it down, don't let anyone change the great culture in this game.

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Originally Posted by PaprikaVorkos

Shrug... imagine giving up 14 years of glamours, achievements and knowledge because you can't handle the community.

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That's called the "sunk cost fallacy" and it's a major reason why so many people still play WoW even though it's an objectively awful game. My WoW account is 13 years old, with titles/items/mounts/glamour/achievements/etc. that have been unavailable for years. It doesn't bother me at all leaving and starting over in a new game... because the old one is not good anymore. I had my fun and enjoyed the items that I had when the game was actually still good. I'm not going to be one of those people still hanging on and refusing to leave because of a bunch of in-game possessions that truthfully no one else even cares about. Sadly, it's a common sentiment on the WoW forums whenever someone discusses a new game - people are dumb and would rather live in the past in a game that's currently bad than start over in a new game that's objectively better.

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Originally Posted by Diggles

That's called the "sunk cost fallacy" and it's a major reason why so many people still play WoW even though it's an objectively awful game. My WoW account is 13 years old, with titles/items/mounts/glamour/achievements/etc. that have been unavailable for years. It doesn't bother me at all leaving and starting over in a new game... because the old one is not good anymore. I had my fun and enjoyed the items that I had when the game was actually still good. I'm not going to be one of those people still hanging on and refusing to leave because of a bunch of in-game possessions that truthfully no one else even cares about. Sadly, it's a common sentiment on the WoW forums whenever someone discusses a new game - people are dumb and would rather live in the past in a game that's currently bad than start over in a new game that's objectively better.

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The amount of 'stuff' I have in WoW at this point is definitely the greatest factor- as the only content I've enjoyed in BfA are the raids. It wasn't like that in Legion- some of the zone stories were good, I really liked Suramar, the raids were good, we had class stories and mage tower challenges.

It helps that even in a few months I have glamours, mounts, pets with more charm and better looks than most of what I've collected in WoW- and there's very little left in WoW of old stuff to farm outside of a few <1% raid mounts you can farm once a week.

It does need taking a step back and just looking at it objectively to realize though not only how bad WoW is at this point, but why it still manages to grip us despite being so bad.

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Originally Posted by drashrock

You're delusional if you think the WoW and XIV communities are different. If you notice anything, its specifically because there are just more people now. Both games have a good share of dicks and saints. Neither WoW nor XIV make a breed of people, they are all just people, and people will be people.

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But our community IS home to the finest people.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

More active players can only ever be a good thing.

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Definitely not true. You can get a flood of new players who change the culture of the game for the worse or who have different priorities, but become so numerous they're now the focus of the devs, and the previous players lose out as a result. Not saying that's the case here, but getting more players certainly isn't an unequivocal good.

Touching post, OP ;;


I think more players to an MMO is a good thing by and large. There will always be toxic people regardless of the avenue or community. More people just means more toxicity, but I wouldn't say that would necessarily overhaul FF's general etiquette because there will always be new people who adapt to their new environment - like you, OP. They see what they like and so they mirror it. Some others won't adapt, or they could just be having a bad day and taking it out on others, et cetera (which isn't a good thing but it happens).


I don't really know WoW. I've never played it, so I can't really comment on WoW players. But I also think it's not good to generalise, because not every WoW player is out of hand, just like not every FF player is generous. The toxicity in FFXIV rises when new expansions and patches come out. Over time, people will generally either leave until next patch or expansion, or chill out.



So, what I would tell to any new player regardless of where they come from is to just try to be polite as a rule of thumb. If there's an issue, don't go pointing the accusatory finger just because something is hard. If people are being rude to you, don't take it personally but also don't roll over and take it. >;3

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

It does need taking a step back and just looking at it objectively to realize though not only how bad WoW is at this point, but why it still manages to grip us despite being so bad.

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It continues to grip people because it's designed that way. Between the RNG dopamine hits that are strategically spaced out to keep you hooked (seriously, there are theories and anecdotal evidence that people whose subs are close to expiring have better loot luck), the time-gated grinding to give you basic features that should be standard, and the previously mentioned sunk cost fallacy, it's no wonder that people continue to hang on. The game is designed to keep you playing without any regard for actual player enjoyment. Blizzard stopped caring YEARS ago about player enjoyment - they only care now about what they can do to keep those MAU numbers up for the investors. That's why FFXIV has been such a huge breath of fresh air for me - a game where the developers actually care about making an enjoyable game instead of stuffing it with RNG on top of RNG (look up titanforging if you've never played WoW - not only do you have to hope for a particular item to drop, you have to hope that it procs ANOTHER RNG roll on top of that to increase its item level) just to keep you playing.

It really boggles my mind how much better this game is overall. No, it's not perfect, but it may as well be when compared to WoW. I am very grateful to the dev team for actually wanting to make an enjoyable game instead of trying to figure out how to exploit human psychology to keep people mindlessly addicted. Make a great game and people will naturally want to play it.

I'm actively giving WoW players safe passage to 14 (I only ask for a small tithe in the form of a favour).

Former wow players are not affecting this game in a negative way, i speak as a former wow player myself that came back to this game over half a year ago after getting sick of 'Boring Farming Azerite' expansion. I have been switching between wow and ffxiv for years, and the level of toxic players now is no different than before the wow mass exodus.

Every game has it's percentage of toxic players no mmo is without them. Some are just impatient and expect everything to be perfect every time, some take advantage of being behind an avatar to behave like that because they like it and would never dare do it to people faces in real life. That's just two reasons there are many not gonna list them all.

The main reason the toxicity level is much lower here is because people simply will not tolerate it and the player base will take action and self police to stop this sort of thing, the last time i saw it was about two weeks ago.

I was in an alliance raid, we were on the second to last boss and we wiped, not a big deal. Straight away one of the group starts kicking off about the fact that after this raid being out for a couple of years everyone should know what to do and we should not be wiping. So another player in the group a healer points out that not everyone is the group is a veteran, we had a fair number of sprouts and also had the notification that one or more were new to the duty and as such not everyone can be expected to be experts.

Well this toxic player did not like that, so he inspects the healers gear, next thing he is posting in party chat slamming the healer for his choice of melds by name, saying that he obviously does not have a clue how to play his class since he is using stupid melds, and is calling on the group to check out his terrible melds and saying how useless this player is. Of course the rest of us ignore this player and concentrate on the boss fight.

Now you would think this player would take a hint after we ignore him, but no. He switches to alliance chat and starts the same thing over again posting the healers name in alliance chat and slamming him in alliance chat just the same as he did in the party chat. Again he is completely ignored by everyone in the alliance party.

So we down the boss on the second try, one boss left and it is done. Shortly after the boss is downed vote kick pops up, reason harassment. The toxic player was kicked, so after half an hour in the run only one boss left he was booted and had to do another alliance raid from the beginning for his behaviour, so he lost half an hour of time over it.

Now i cannot say if this player has carried on in this manner in other runs or learned their lesson, but if they carried on doing this repeatedly the reports would end up getting him banned.

That is why toxic behaviour is more of a rare occurrence here and will continue to be. It will never stop completely, this again is true of any mmo. It is simply not tolerated here.

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Originally Posted by Stirix

Former wow players are not affecting this game in a negative way, i speak as a former wow player myself that came back to this game over half a year ago

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I am also a former WoW player. Just because you, and I, are not toxic does not mean that there are not a lot of toxic players coming from WoW.gonna list them all.

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Originally Posted by Stirix

The main reason the toxicity level is much lower here is because people simply will not tolerate it and the player base will take action and self police to stop this sort of thing, the last time i saw it was about two weeks ago.

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It IS tolerated, even celebrated, in WoW. And the more toxic players a community has, the more likely it is that such behavior is tolerated. WoW's community has earned a reputation for being toxic. It's because of this reputation, combined with the sudden surge of WoW players coming to FFXIV, that people in this community are so concerned. It risks shifting the balance from "polite, decent, friendly" to toxic.

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Originally Posted by Stirix

So we down the boss on the second try, one boss left and it is done. Shortly after the boss is downed vote kick pops up, reason harassment. The toxic player was kicked, so after half an hour in the run only one boss left he was booted and had to do another alliance raid from the beginning for his behaviour, so he lost half an hour of time over it.

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Glad that this was the result. And so far I have not seen a marked increase in this type of behavior. But my DC seems to be one of the better ones in terms of quality of community (if the stories i read on the forums are anything to go by). But the concern is still there about a mass influx of WoW players. The friendly, helpful players, please do join us!

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Originally Posted by Stirix

That is why toxic behaviour is more of a rare occurrence here and will continue to be. It will never stop completely, this again is true of any mmo. It is simply not tolerated here.

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I definitely agree that it's less common here in FFXIV, and this is a large reason why some are concerned about the sudden influx of WoW players.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

I am also a former WoW player. Just because you, and I, are not toxic does not mean that there are not a lot of toxic players coming from WoW.gonna list them all.

It IS tolerated, even celebrated, in WoW. And the more toxic players a community has, the more likely it is that such behavior is tolerated. WoW's community has earned a reputation for being toxic. It's because of this reputation, combined with the sudden surge of WoW players coming to FFXIV, that people in this community are so concerned. It risks shifting the balance from "polite, decent, friendly" to toxic.

Glad that this was the result. And so far I have not seen a marked increase in this type of behavior. But my DC seems to be one of the better ones in terms of quality of community (if the stories i read on the forums are anything to go by). But the concern is still there about a mass influx of WoW players. The friendly, helpful players, please do join us!

I definitely agree that it's less common here in FFXIV, and this is a large reason why some are concerned about the sudden influx of WoW players.

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This has got to be the most passive-aggressive attitude that I've seen on these forums in decades. Where is this paranoia of yours stemming from?

Has there been a sudden surge of negative threads - specifically from WoW refugees - as of late? Has there been a surge of DOCUMENTED toxicity in-game in the past few months? If you cannot provide any evidence of these crippling issues aside from your anecdotal experiences then your passive-aggressive behaviour is superfluous.

Does anyone ever wake up and say to themselves: "Oh no, the national debt is 22 trillion dollars and rising! What am I going to do?!"

No.

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Originally Posted by mario710

This has got to be the most passive-aggressive attitude that I've seen on these forums all week. Where is this paranoia of yours stemming from?

Has there been a sudden surge of negative threads - specifically from WoW refugees - as of late? Has there been a surge of DOCUMENTED toxicity in-game in the past few months? If you cannot provide any evidence of these crippling issues aside from your anecdotal experiences then your passive-aggressive behaviour is superfluous.

Does anyone ever wake up and say to themselves: "Oh no, the national debt is 22 trillion dollars and rising! What am I going to do?!"

No.

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I've been here since ARR, and the community has definitely changed to be more like the WoW community in that time. How much of that is the effect of a steady stream of WoW players coming to this game in a period of time in which WoW was greatly declining and how much is a nigh inevitable effect of a game's community becoming more experienced and overall better I couldn't say, but it has been very noticeable.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

I've been here since ARR, and the community has definitely changed to be more like the WoW community in that time. How much of that is the effect of a steady stream of WoW players coming to this game in a period of time in which WoW was greatly declining and how much is a nigh inevitable effect of a game's community becoming more experienced and overall better I couldn't say, but it has been very noticeable.

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Yes, because you have empyrical data backing this 'stream' of WoW players pouring in overtime, right?

An undefinable number of non-deterministic factors have caused the attitude of this community to shift over the course of time. That is inevitable for ANY community. Change is undefiable.

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Originally Posted by mario710

Yes, because you have empyrical data backing this 'stream' of WoW players pouring in overtime, right?

An undefinable number of non-deterministic factors have caused the attitude of this community to shift over the course of time. That is inevitable for ANY community. Change is undefiable.

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An utterly vacuous comment. There is no empirical data for the overwhelming majority of happenings in our daily lives, yet humans manage to navigate them successfully through inference and simple observation. Indeed, it is critical that we be able to do so. Certainly there is a limit to the value of anecdotes, but in the absence of better data–as is the case here–there is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to collectively work out what may be happening through exchanging those anecdotes and trying to form a broader picture. One must be careful not to become overly attached to a particular conclusion hastily, but it is necessary to do this, even in science, which muh le logic types tend to treat almost as a religion (ironically making them hazardous to good science, which they claim to be advocates for). Hypotheses are formed from observations and then tested, yet often it's not possible to test them at the time they are formed, but they may have some particular value or interest as an explanation and continue to have influence until years down the road when it's finally possible to actually test them.

Here, where the stakes are quite low, there is little risk in discussing our collective observations and trying to tease out what may be happening. For instance, I have played FFXIV since ARR and played WoW from BC through Legion. From both sides of the fence, I have observed many of my own friends and acquaintances leaving WoW for FFXIV or playing both simultaneously. I've also participated somewhat actively in both communities and seen time and time again people saying on the WoW forums that they were done with WoW for one reason or another and at least stating an intention to go to FFXIV. Maybe they never did or maybe they quit and came back. However, on the FFXIV side of things, I know many people who did in fact leave WoW and become permanent residents of FFXIV, myself included. I also see plenty of talk of WoW from people who obviously at least used to play it in a variety of chat channels in the game, as well as in the forums. There is an abundance of evidence for the claim that many WoW players have begun playing FFXIV over time, and if you really think that is a contentious claim, then you have utterly abandoned reason for an overzealous and likely crippling dependence on empirical data.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

I've been here since ARR, and the community has definitely changed to be more like the WoW community in that time. How much of that is the effect of a steady stream of WoW players coming to this game in a period of time in which WoW was greatly declining and how much is a nigh inevitable effect of a game's community becoming more experienced and overall better I couldn't say, but it has been very noticeable.

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I played WoW from 2009 till early this year. I have also played FF XIV since ARR launch. There has been no noticeable increase in toxicity because of WoW players moving over to this game. None. Any toxicity that occurs here is the result of people being people, and knowing they can be anonymous jerks on the internet. More people = more jerks, but that isn't exclusive to WoW players. It's everywhere. Our community is overall decent but it has its fair share of jerks, and WoW has very little to do with it. Honestly? This needs to stop.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I played WoW from 2009 till early this year. I have also played FF XIV since ARR launch. There has been no noticeable increase in toxicity because of WoW players moving over to this game. None. Any toxicity that occurs here is the result of people being people, and knowing they can be anonymous jerks on the internet. More people = more jerks, but that isn't exclusive to WoW players. It's everywhere. Our community is overall decent but it has its fair share of jerks, and WoW has very little to do with it. Honestly? This needs to stop.

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Really bizarre response considering my post did not designate a causal factor.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

More active players can only ever be a good thing.

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This is just completely false. It's not that black and white...sure, having more players to keep a game alive is a good thing in itself, but to ignore everything else that comes with it is just silly.

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Originally Posted by mario710

Yes, because you have empyrical data backing this 'stream' of WoW players pouring in overtime, right?

An undefinable number of non-deterministic factors have caused the attitude of this community to shift over the course of time. That is inevitable for ANY community. Change is undefiable.

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Do you have empirical data to prove otherwise? You see, your argument goes both ways.

I think i've seen you posting several times demanding for this "empirical evidence" and "studies". It is quite frankly getting a bit annoying now to keep reading the same arguments over and over.

It is a fact that companies run their own numbers but said numbers are never ever known to the players. At best we do have anedotal experience and "guesstimates".

Toxicity has always been here. Usually on a lesser degree as other games but that also depends on the nature of the game and the type of behaviour devs promote. FF14 is largely a cooperative game. It also requires of you to have some sort of endurance / patience to stomach the MSQ (b4 skips) since it doesn't really let you power through to max level.
WoW... well you have 2 factions that are at war with each other and you can technically kill people from the other faction so by its own nature if foments a bit more of that tribalistic "us vs them" behaviour gamers tend towards (console wars anyone?), which in turn turn people more into trash talking and toxicity if taken towards an extreme.

Not saying that traits of them don't overlap. you can see way more toxicity in FF14's pvp mode (i don't fully understand why competition in general turns people into asshats in games...) and raiding in wow requires people to work together but im rambling at this point...

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Really bizarre response considering my post did not designate a causal factor.

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Perhaps I misread. Apologies if so. Either way my point stands, though it doesn't necessarily pertain to your post now. I'm more or less addressing what some people seem oblivious to.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Perhaps I misread. Apologies if so. Either way my point stands, though it doesn't necessarily pertain to your post now. I'm more or less addressing what some people seem oblivious to.

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This is my fourth post in this thread and I have yet to blame anyone for anything. All I've done is state an observation–that the culture of this game has become more like the culture of WoW over the last six years–and name some possible explanations or contributing factors for that change. I've deliberately avoid claiming to know the cause because I certainly don't, but I do find the subject interesting, which is why I opened the thread to see what other people had to say.

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Originally Posted by mario710

This has got to be the most passive-aggressive attitude that I've seen on these forums in decades. Where is this paranoia of yours stemming from?

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LOLwut? There's no paranoia, Chicken Little. And I don't think you know what passive-aggressive means.

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Originally Posted by mario710

Has there been a sudden surge of negative threads - specifically from WoW refugees - as of late? Has there been a surge of DOCUMENTED toxicity in-game in the past few months? If you cannot provide any evidence of these crippling issues aside from your anecdotal experiences then your passive-aggressive behaviour is superfluous.

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From them? No. About them? Yes. Stories of negative experiences where one of the people causing the negative experience boasts that they're from WoW... Yes to that as well.
And of course there's the attempt to dismiss what someone says by misusing fallacy accusations and demanding evidence for something.
And what "crippling issues" are you referring to? I'm getting the impression you quoted the wrong person.

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Originally Posted by mario710

Does anyone ever wake up and say to themselves: "Oh no, the national debt is 22 trillion dollars and rising! What am I going to do?!"

No.

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Based on your post, it would not surprise me if you did exactly that every day. You're certainly prone to make wild leaps and even wilder accusations. Even to the point where you're displaying the very toxicity that FFXIV players dislike.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

This is my fourth post in this thread and I have yet to blame anyone for anything. All I've done is state an observation–that the culture of this game has become more like the culture of WoW over the last six years–and name some possible explanations or contributing factors for that change. I've deliberately avoid claiming to know the cause because I certainly don't, but I do find the subject interesting, which is why I opened the thread to see what other people had to say.

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That's fair enough. Like I said, I must have misread. At this point a lot of the posts in this thread just look the same and I'm growing tired of it. I jumped to conclusions without reading your post more clearly, so it's my bad.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

It IS tolerated, even celebrated, in WoW. And the more toxic players a community has, the more likely it is that such behavior is tolerated. WoW's community has earned a reputation for being toxic. It's because of this reputation, combined with the sudden surge of WoW players coming to FFXIV, that people in this community are so concerned. It risks shifting the balance from "polite, decent, friendly" to toxic..

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That is exactly the point i was making with my story, yes toxic players will come, it has always happened and it will always continue to happen. But here this kind of behaviour is treated very differently than it is over in Warcraft. Over there the dev's and gm's don't care that it happens so long as they make plenty of cash, that is why it has spread so much.

Here the devs and gm's do care, if a player repeatedly behaves in this manner they will get reported multiple times by players, this will be investigated. Since chat logs are saved they can see from reviewing them exactly what kind of stuff was happening, and if it is deemed toxic behaviour it ranges from a warning to a ban depending on level and/or frequency of infractions. Toxicity on that level simply cannot spread here because square are alot more proactive on dealing with it.

One thing that does worry me tho is the perception that all wow players are toxic, we are not. Until i spoke up on this thread no one outside my fc even knew i was former wow. I have kept it that way because of this negative perception of all warcraft players being toxic. Yeah that game does have a high level of toxicity, but to anyone reading this please don't judge the individual based on the actions of the community.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

That's fair enough. Like I said, I must have misread. At this point a lot of the posts in this thread just look the same and I'm growing tired of it. I jumped to conclusions without reading your post more clearly, so it's my bad.

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Yeah, it's fine. I probably could have just skipped the last post I made, but I tend to over explain.

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Originally Posted by Stirix

One thing that does worry me tho is the perception that all wow players are toxic, we are not. Until i spoke up on this thread no one outside my fc even knew i was former wow. I have kept it that way because of this negative perception of all warcraft players being toxic. Yeah that game does have a high level of toxicity, but to anyone reading this please don't judge the individual based on the actions of the community.

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I've noticed this, too. Especially on the forums. I've never understood why people fall victim to that mentality.
Just because a community has earned a reputation, doesn't mean that community will not have people in it that are the opposite of that reputation.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

Just because a community has earned a reputation, doesn't mean that community will not have people in it that are the opposite of that reputation.

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Well... it only takes you a bad day to be lumped with all the "toxic wow people" by a bunch of random internet people.

I agree. It is a very prevalent mentality in this forum. I'd prefer to give people a chance but apparently that's what we have.

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Originally Posted by Schan

Do you have empirical data to prove otherwise? You see, your argument goes both ways.

I think i've seen you posting several times demanding for this "empirical evidence" and "studies". It is quite frankly getting a bit annoying now to keep reading the same arguments over and over.

Toxicity has always been here. Usually on a lesser degree as other games but that also depends on the nature of the game and the type of behaviour devs promote. FF14 is largely a cooperative game. It also requires of you to have some sort of endurance / patience to stomach the MSQ (b4 skips) since it doesn't really let you power through to max level.

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It doesn't go both ways. Everything I have stated has been objective in nature.

I avoid stating opinions in these threads for this very reason. Flipping the narrative on me is useless.

It is indeed factual that any number (undefined) of factors will influence a community for better or worse. You ask me to provide evidence of human nature, however, I won't do that. What I will do is restate my point that change is inevitable.

Despite our efforts, everything evolves over time. To claim that WoW immigrants are the problem child of this community infecting everyone is hyperbolic without any semblance of evidence that ISN'T anecdotal.

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Originally Posted by mario710

It doesn't go both ways. Everything I have stated has been objective in nature.

I avoid stating opinions in these threads for this very reason. Flipping the narrative on me is useless.

It is indeed factual that any number (undefined) of factors will influence a community for better or worse. You ask me to provide evidence of human nature, however, I won't do that. What I will do is restate my point that change is inevitable.

Despite our efforts, everything evolves over time. To claim that WoW immigrants are the problem child of this community infecting everyone is hyperbolic without any semblance of evidence that ISN'T anecdotal.

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I can sum your post up with two words...

Double standards.

You haven't posted anything objective that I've seen. Your reply to me certainly was anything but objective. There's no narrative to flip. You're just throwing out buzzwords.

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Originally Posted by mario710

I respectfully deflowered and dismantled your aggressive claims that WoW immigrants are the problem in this community. Nothing more.

The chicken little insult was cute and very ladylike. I approve.

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Nothing that I've said has been aggressive. Your insults, on the other hand...
And you certainly have not been respectful. Flinging accusations, especially false and baseless accusations, is not respectful.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

LOLwut? There's no paranoia, Chicken Little. And I don't think you know what passive-aggressive means.


From them? No. About them? Yes. Stories of negative experiences where one of the people causing the negative experience boasts that they're from WoW... Yes to that as well.
And of course there's the attempt to dismiss what someone says by misusing fallacy accusations and demanding evidence for something.
And what "crippling issues" are you referring to? I'm getting the impression you quoted the wrong person.

Based on your post, it would not surprise me if you did exactly that every day. You're certainly prone to make wild leaps and even wilder accusations. Even to the point where you're displaying the very toxicity that FFXIV players dislike.

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I respectfully deflowered and dismantled your aggressive claims that WoW immigrants are the problem in this community. Nothing more.

The chicken little insult was cute and very ladylike. I approve.

Remember fellas, gatekeeping and inventing labels to attach to people that don't play the game like you expect is the most dumb thing you can do! Everyone is welcome to join the party!

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Originally Posted by mario710

It doesn't go both ways. Everything I have stated has been objective in nature.

I avoid stating opinions in these threads for this very reason. Flipping the narrative on me is useless.

It is indeed factual that any number (undefined) of factors will influence a community for better or worse. You ask me to provide evidence of human nature, however, I won't do that. What I will do is restate my point that change is inevitable.

Despite our efforts, everything evolves over time. To claim that WoW immigrants are the problem child of this community infecting everyone is hyperbolic without any semblance of evidence that ISN'T anecdotal.

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If you had settled for stating that it was unjustified to claim with certainty it was the fault of WoW players, your argument would have merit, but you didn't. Instead, in labeling it hyperbolic, you implicitly made a counterclaim, and I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and guess you don't have evidence to support that claim that meets whatever standards you're imposing on others, as it seems unlikely you'd be satisfied with anything other than a national laboratory handling the case.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

I can sum your post up with two words...

Double standards.

You haven't posted anything objective that I've seen. Your reply to me certainly was anything but objective. There's no narrative to flip. You're just throwing out buzzwords.

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Everything I have objectively stated has been the result of your poorly backed statements regarding the state of this community. That statement is also objective in its entirety.

Where is your evidence backed by observational data?

Can we both agree that the number of plausible factors affecting this community is undefined to the common player?

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Originally Posted by mario710

Everything I have objectively stated has been the result of your poorly backed statements regarding the state of this community. That statement is also objective in its entirety.

Where is your evidence backed by observational data?

Can both agree that the number of plausible factors affecting this community is undefined to the common player?

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Nothing I have said requires evidence. What I have said is observation.

The word you're looking for, by the way, is not "objective", it's "subjective". You have not stated anything that's objective.
You claiming that you've posted objective statements is not an objective statement. You're using words that you don't understand the meaning of.

You also seem incapable of posting without insulting the person you're replying to. You are exhibiting toxic behavior. You have done this to me in several replies and you've done it to others as well.

If you want to continue to have a civil discussion, leave the insults out of it.

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Originally Posted by mario710

It doesn't go both ways. Everything I have stated has been objective in nature.

I avoid stating opinions in these threads for this very reason. Flipping the narrative on me is useless.

It is indeed factual that any number (undefined) of factors will influence a community for better or worse. You ask me to provide evidence of human nature, however, I won't do that. What I will do is restate my point that change is inevitable.

Despite our efforts, everything evolves over time. To claim that WoW immigrants are the problem child of this community infecting everyone is hyperbolic without any semblance of evidence that ISN'T anecdotal.

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Someone needs some reading comprehension as well. I would like you to point out in my post where I have said / implied that WoW immigrants are the problem child of this community.

As much as I don't always agree with CazzT I have to agree that it seems you're throwing buzzwords around.

You're not being objective. If anything you're being psudo-objective and by that I mean you are pretending to be objective with fancy words without actually providing proof of said objectivity because "i won't do that". that is your choice but don't be surprised when people doubt your objectivity when we see no proof.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

An utterly vacuous comment.

There is an abundance of evidence for the claim that many WoW players have begun playing FFXIV over time

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Provide me with this abundance of evidence on a neat spreadsheet.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

Nothing I have said requires evidence. What I have said is observation.

The word you're looking for, by the way, is not "objective", it's "subjective". You have not stated anything that's objective.
You claiming that you've posted objective statements is not an objective statement. You're using words that you don't understand the meaning of.

You also seem incapable of posting without insulting the person you're replying to. You are exhibiting toxic behavior. You have done this to me in several replies and you've done it to others as well.

If you want to continue to have a civil discussion, leave the insults out of it.

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What a disgusting conglomerate of sewage.

First, you claim that I've only stated opinions - which is false - and then you claim that I've flung insults?

I am defeated.

Have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

If you had settled for stating that it was unjustified to claim with certainty it was the fault of WoW players, your argument would have merit, but you didn't. Instead, in labeling it hyperbolic, you implicitly made a counterclaim, and I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and guess you don't have evidence to support that claim that meets whatever standards you're imposing on others, as it seems unlikely you'd be satisfied with anything other than a national laboratory handling the case.

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None of that is relevant.