Gender Locks Have Revealed the Worst in Players.

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Originally Posted by dragonkyn20

My god the forums have turned into an absolute shitshow.

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I thought Brexit was the biggest shit show I would watch this week.

I was wrong.

Aye, some people are overreacting - and that's rich seeing as I was one of the ardent speculators. Regardless, some folks are throwing around insults and the likes - as if they're candy which is resulting in those who are opposing resulting in the same way. Both sides of the extreme, some being snide and aggressive - others trolling and feeding on the salt. It's getting pathetic. Just funnel the complaints into one simple thread, be constructive. If people oppose then just block them. If they're horrific and rude - which I've seen on both sides; then report.

I'm not going to say this is sexism, though it raises my brow. I'm not going to say this is bigotry - because all I have is a few dusty quotes from one developer and I don't know their motivations. My only irritation is the excuse used by the lack of the other genders being added in. Male Viera as a result of lore, and female Hrothgar more than likely limited to keep it 'fair'. The lore excuse doesn't sit well with me, not at all. I'd be semi-happy knowing the truth about the reasonings for the lock that wasn't tide into something as flimsy as lore. Lore they could have changed. Lore that they have time and time again ignored/retconned. The original creator already stated that they had no objection to Viera male avatars. Shrug. Come on Yoshida, was there time constraints? Were there issues? Was there an issue regarding resources? What was the problem? While people would still be throwing a fit, some of us would have been placated and would be less rage induced.

Anyway, people need to calm down and be constructive.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

Gender-based discrimination. I'll let you google what that's called, and I look forward to you actually answering my questions in return.

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No one or SE is discriminating against your gender I don't get where this is coming from you're the issue screaming when people don't agree with you saying "you don't want male Vieras? SEXIST" and it's why I can't agree with any of your posts you've circumvented on this forum. I don't care if you wear a dress and I'm sure a ton of people don't but because the game doesn't let you wear a certain dress you immediately go to hate speech, get over yourself it's not even close to gender discrimination, it's just a design choice that they haven't bothered changing much like the male bunny suit you could constructively try and petition instead of yelling everyone's a bigot.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

The reasons we don't have male Viera are due to sexist views of how men and women should be portrayed. The lore reason is an in-game excuse to maintain these kind of sexist ideologies that have long been prevalent in society. Hypermasculine men and hyperfeminine ladies has been the theme of consecutive race releases since launch.

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That again is just wrong if you wanna be a feminine male you have the tools there to make yourself stand out as such, you want to play a muscular female or more of a tomboy the tools are there as well there's no sexist views being brought in here at all the players chose themselves, how to portray their characters you can't speak for society. The more you bring this into FFXIV the more it shows that you have no feedback just whining about how things aren't equal, your arguments that fall flat because I leave my sexual fetishes at the door when I play an MMO.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

"Since it seems like Viera is popular around the world we have been proactively looking into this, but since having a rabbit male might be kind of weird, maybe we’ll look into having a separate race for the male counterpart."

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The word "weird" there could mean many things.

weird
/wird/Submit
adjective
1.
suggesting something supernatural; uncanny.

un·can·ny
/ˌənˈkanē/Submit
adjective
strange or mysterious, especially in an unsettling way.

In context, he (Yoshida?) is speaking about a race that in all iterations of Final Fantasy where Viera exist, has been the same lore. They have a female-run society that live in tree tops. Their men live down below and protect the forest/jungle grounds. Their men stay hidden from view for this very reason. And every once in awhile, the men come up to mate. Then they go back down. Sometimes the women leave the forest/jungle and live in cities. Nowhere does it say the males do this.

FFXIV expounded a bit on this:
"Male Viera return to the village to collect the male children who reach puberty to teach them the ways of the hunt. They live in separate settlements and only communicate with the females when needing to mate, trade or collect the male adolescences. The male Viera are secretive, vicious, skilled hunters and are so well adapted to living in Viera forests no one aside from female Viera has ever seen one."

So given those facts, we have to look at his statement again. People want Viera, and the devs/company are looking(looked) into it. However, having males of that race might be weird, strange, mysterious, perhaps even baffling to add in their minds. Why? Because every single piece of lore from other games and FFXIV have stated how rare they are to even be seen. It could have been a company head that made the decision.

I take this as him expressing their dilemma from a development standpoint. I do not consider this to be calling the concept of male rabbits weird. Why even mention them in lore at all if it's the "wrong" kind of weird(taboo)?

I don't think SE, or Yoshida is fundamentally opposed to male rabbits, cats, pigeons, sloths, potatoes, or whatever. I think he was expressing the difficult decision they had to make, and even offered a possible solution at that time to counteract it.

Simply put, they tried to do a good/nice thing to add Viera in the first place. For reasons that we might not even know about, they added them as female only. So they offered another good/nice thing by adding another requested race to compensate. But they had to sacrifice the females of that race. They didn't have to add either. The game still would've been fine without them, or even having them as beast tribes. It would have played the same irregardless.

They could have spent that time making a healer job. (Another group that is upset, and has far more reason to be.) Or they could have spent it on a plethora of the many complaints people have registered against the game. Instead, they made a wager and created two races they hoped the players would enjoy. Maybe they'll add their counterparts later. They might not make another race, but they didn't completely rule out genders.

It's a shame that people would rather quit over this, than give the expansion a chance. Or support the company that worked on the other 95% of the content coming. Or stick with them, to see if they can help change it. But at the same time, it is their prerogative. Realistically, you do nothing to fix the issue that way. They'll probably gain way more subs than the ones leaving over this issue. And your voices will be gone from the crowd.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

I've read a lot of the ideas and responses about this issue on the NA general forums and the Japanese forums (being Japanese myself, though there is hardly anything at all on the JPN side). You need to remember that Japan isn't nearly as progressive about gender and such politically, socially, or legally as much of the Western world is. Calling Matsuno an idiot and saying he should be fired in a public forum also does very little for your cause. People need to realize that whilst they may live in one part of the world, not everyone or every country has the same ideas as to what is considered 'idiotic' or prejudiced. Look at the current laws in Japan in regards to gender, and you'd see how very far, regrettably, they are. However, that is no excuse for what amounts to attacking others who produce a game you claim to enjoy.

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I want to give this 100 more likes!

Frankly, I will admit to my disappointment in there being no male Viera, but also no female Hrothgar. I wasn't planning on using a Fantasia on my main, but I am admittedly an altoholic. I've been writing things of character ideas, seeing how they'd play out, histories, and so on. Characters of varying races and genders; Miqo'te, Elezen, Lalafell, Roegadyn, Midlander and Highlander Hyur, as well as Au Ra. I have the upgraded sub plan that costs more, for more character slots, to reflect this.

For me, this does impact my enjoyment of the game somewhat as I had been thinking of making a male Viera as an alt. When they showed Hrothgar my thoughts immediately went to "hey, Ronso, cool, I hadn't thought of that. Female Ronso could be cool character idea too."

And then the initial models were shown and I... wasn't too impressed by how they looked. Granted, there are still three months between now and Shadowbringers release, so it is very possible they'll be refined and look better. For me, I wouldn't mind another female character that's more robust; I have a female Roegadyn AST as an alt, after all.

While I still expect I'll enjoy the majority of Shadowbringers' content, I am disappointed by the lack of a new healer for the second expansion in a row, especially when their reasoning is the exact same reasoning they gave for why there was no healer in Stormblood. However, given the current state of healers, it's also understandable; WHM feels like it has less identity and draw to it compared to SCH and AST, in large part due to losing several things that were principally WHM's.

For someone who likes to create, the gender lock feels... off, as I have these ideas that I can't realize now in terms of visuals. For those who are pleased with the stuff shown at the keynote, great! What I ask is that the disappointment is also understood and not made light of. Conversely, I ask those who are disappointed to not lash out at those who are happy, and most certainly don't lash out at the game developers. It solves nothing.

The people saying it's "sexist" or "misogyny/misandry" not only are offering a poor excuse, but they're also the minority.
The rest of the people are upset at Square Enix for not being consistent yet again, or because they didn't add something they liked and were expectant about because of a previous OFFICIAL statement.

However, there are people who are conflating the two and attempting to discredit those who are complaining by dismissing them for being "toxic" or because the criticism is "persistent". This group is the one that does not have a leg to stand on, as they are being dishonest wilfully.

If however it is a result of ignorance such as those calling others a "disgrace" for something that they are not doing (blackmail) then:

NEWSFLASH: That's what boycotting, hence protesting against a decision means. It's meant to be insistent and it's meant to hurt the company by simply not supporting it. If anyone actually knew what a protest is, they would know that this is nothing more than par for the course. IF ANYTHING, this is way more peaceful than even non-violent protests happening IRL. If anyone has been to those, they would know what the atmosphere would be like. (Spoiler: much more threatening than anything written on the internet)
Hence, shush, and surrender to the evidence.

Those who are actually being toxic openly insulting others by using profanities and FALSE accusations, discredit themselves.

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Originally Posted by Anesteria

The people saying it's "sexist" or "misogyny/misandry" not only are offering a poor excuse, but they're also the minority.
The rest of the people are upset at Square Enix for not being consistent yet again, or because they didn't add something they liked and were expectant about because of a previous OFFICIAL statement.

However, there are people who are conflating the two and attempting to discredit those who are complaining by dismissing them for being "toxic" or because the criticism is "persistent". This group is the one that does not have a leg to stand on, as they are being dishonest wilfully.

If however it is a result of ignorance such as those calling others a "disgrace" for something that they are not doing (blackmail) then:

NEWSFLASH: That's what boycotting, hence protesting against a decision means. It's meant to be insistent and it's meant to hurt the company by simply not supporting it. If anyone actually knew what a protest is, they would know that this is nothing more than par for the course. IF ANYTHING, this is way more peaceful than even non-violent protests happening IRL. If anyone has been to those, they would know what the atmosphere would be like. (Spoiler: much more threatening than anything written on the internet)
Hence, shush, and surrender to the evidence.

Those who are actually being toxic openly insulting others by using profanities and FALSE accusations, discredit themselves.

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I mean, did you even read OP's post? Like put your defense in any of the 30 other posts, this dude is off the rails.

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Originally Posted by cicatriz313

I mean, did you even read OP's post? Like put your defense in any of the 30 other posts, this dude is off the rails.

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I did. But I also read what the others posted and guess what.

It's not a defense, it's a clarification. But people come here in earnest and keep falling on the sword of Damocles.
By using the same arguments and tone.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

I've read a lot of the ideas and responses about this issue on the NA general forums and the Japanese forums (being Japanese myself, though there is hardly anything at all on the JPN side). You need to remember that Japan isn't nearly as progressive about gender and such politically, socially, or legally as much of the Western world is. Calling Matsuno an idiot and saying he should be fired in a public forum also does very little for your cause. People need to realize that whilst they may live in one part of the world, not everyone or every country has the same ideas as to what is considered 'idiotic' or prejudiced. Look at the current laws in Japan in regards to gender, and you'd see how very far, regrettably, they are. However, that is no excuse for what amounts to attacking others who produce a game you claim to enjoy.

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SquareEnix needs to realize they are running a global game and that players in other countries have different standards than they do. Some hold dearly to those standards.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

So given those facts, we have to look at his statement again. People want Viera, and the devs/company are looking(looked) into it. However, having males of that race might be weird, strange, mysterious, perhaps even baffling to add in their minds. Why? Because every single piece of lore from other games and FFXIV have stated how rare they are to even be seen. It could have been a company head that made the decision.

I take this as him expressing their dilemma from a development standpoint. I do not consider this to be calling the concept of male rabbits weird. Why even mention them in lore at all if it's the "wrong" kind of weird(taboo)?

I don't think SE, or Yoshida is fundamentally opposed to male rabbits, cats, pigeons, sloths, potatoes, or whatever. I think he was expressing the difficult decision they had to make, and even offered a possible solution at that time to counteract it.

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I'll say that I appreciate your response even if I disagree with you for reasons already laid out in other responses. Their history regarding the kind of sentiment I describe is unchanged.

At the very least, I feel like people should be able to agree that while we can't all have what we want, we can also strive to make sure everyone has a share of what's already set before us. I don't feel like keeping things equal is a big or unreasonable ask. Both races should have both genders, or we should have one race with both genders first, and then later the next race with both genders.

There's the whole "they can do what they want" thing, and we're just as free and more than justified in criticizing those decisions. I'm personally not unsubbing because of this, I mean I wouldn't be switching to male Viera anyway. My voice remains as long as I'm paying to play the game, and when I'm not it will mean that I have moved on and won't care about what the game has gained or lost.

These past two days have done nothing but cemented my faith...that this community really is great, btw!

*zealously refreshes shitpostxiv every hour*

Edit: official confirmation that we are are indeed the greatest!

https://i.imgur.com/ZW5l4mW.png

Simply report any cravens crossing the line and get on with it.

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Originally Posted by Delicious-Flat-Chest

I see you're a shiny polished example of academic prowess. "lol didn't read because you said a bad word >:("
Let's throw together a little role reversal then.

Hrothgar are the greatest thing to happen to the game since Roe swimwear. Every morning I wake up, take a shower and brush all the lose food out of my chest hair. This is a magical time for me. The first thing I do every morning is the firmest reaffirmation of my manliness. So you could understand why I would be slightly flustered when the very next thing I do is fire up FFXIV , log into my Roe (he's so thick and UNFF btw O3O) and notice that that perfectly smooth chest. An everglowing beacon of the semistraight white males body standards imposed on the bottoms of the gay world. Hrothgar change this, they flip the white mans view of homosexuality on it's head. Suddenly there are no other options than a man covered in fur taking the knot. This is why it bothers me so much when I hear others bring up male Viera. White, sexist and homophobic men who want to see a brown twink colonized like a British empire state. Hrothgar are a true advancement in LGBTQF+ rights while male Viera are a white supremacist power fantasy. I'm glad SE is on the right side of history unlike you bigots.

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And they all vote on the left, so that's a plus.

SE did't ask us but if given a choice what you rather have?

1) F Viera & M Ronso
2) F/M Viera
3) F/M Ronso
4) F/M Viera & F/M Ronso

SE chose 1. The player base might have chosen 1, 2 or 3, we we never asked.

The devs and the players both know choice 4 is by far the best, but it just might not have been feasible at the moment. I frankly won't be surprised if come next FF Yoshi announces they are adding the other genders.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

SquareEnix needs to realize they are running a global game and that players in other countries have different standards than they do. Some hold dearly to those standards.

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While this is true, this doesn't mean SE or the FFXIV dev team need to cater to all the regions in which the game is sold - doing so would not be feasible given the great disparity in social attitudes and cultural norms across all the countries and regions players are scattered in. They can only do their best to determine what they perceive the playerbase likes and what is still within their own vision of the game.

Discussing this and the nature of the current NA forums with friends from the JPN datacenters and others who play FFXIV IRL with me, we aren't so much surprised as saddened by the way some are responding. I suppose people would think me part of the 'hive mind' or however many people see Japanese, but where is the gratitude for the hard work the devs have put in for this expansion? For making 2 new races when they hadn't intended to make any more at all? To trying their best to make the game friendly to the LGBT community even though this often goes against established societal norms in the home country of the game creation? Can we not see the things we are getting that are new and exciting and fun instead of focusing on the things we are not getting yet were never even promised?

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

While this is true, this doesn't mean SE or the FFXIV dev team need to cater to all the regions in which the game is sold - doing so would not be feasible given the great disparity in social attitudes and cultural norms across all the countries and regions players are scattered in. They can only do their best to determine what they perceive the playerbase likes and what is still within their own vision of the game.

Discussing this and the nature of the current NA forums with friends from the JPN datacenters and others who play FFXIV IRL with me, we aren't so much surprised as saddened by the way some are responding. I suppose people would think me part of the 'hive mind' or however many people see Japanese, but where is the gratitude for the hard work the devs have put in for this expansion? For making 2 new races when they hadn't intended to make any more at all? To trying their best to make the game friendly to the LGBT community even though this often goes against established societal norms in the home country of the game creation? Can we not see the things we are getting that are new and exciting and fun instead of focusing on the things we are not getting yet were never even promised?

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Now, see, I very much like your way of thinking and it's how I've been trying to approach this thing myself.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

While this is true, this doesn't mean SE or the FFXIV dev team need to cater to all the regions in which the game is sold - doing so would not be feasible given the great disparity in social attitudes and cultural norms across all the countries and regions players are scattered in. They can only do their best to determine what they perceive the playerbase likes and what is still within their own vision of the game.

Discussing this and the nature of the current NA forums with friends from the JPN datacenters and others who play FFXIV IRL with me, we aren't so much surprised as saddened by the way some are responding. I suppose people would think me part of the 'hive mind' or however many people see Japanese, but where is the gratitude for the hard work the devs have put in for this expansion? For making 2 new races when they hadn't intended to make any more at all? To trying their best to make the game friendly to the LGBT community even though this often goes against established societal norms in the home country of the game creation? Can we not see the things we are getting that are new and exciting and fun instead of focusing on the things we are not getting yet were never even promised?

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Beautifully put.

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Originally Posted by Bongaboi

And they all vote on the left, so that's a plus.

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I mean, I'm bi, and independent/moderate, so... that kind of vitriol is just absurd. And despite what Delicious-Flat-Chest seemed to be thinking, again, I play various combinations of races and genders. Hrothgar as they appear now don't look terribly appealing, but it's also still a work in progress. I was interested in male Viera because it's, frankly, a curiosity. We've been told about them, and admittedly I would like to put faces and appearances to them.

Literally all I did was point out that their way of responding to the OP was merely giving substance to the OP's initial post, by way of writing in the manner the OP described. And suddenly it became diatribes, which were most certainly uncalled for. Lack of civility is very much an issue for both sides on this. Frankly, we can stand to learn from how Mirielle is responding to this, and others who are showing civility in their responses and disagreements.

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Originally Posted by redcurrant18

Also, me and many others have canceled our subscriptions over this gender lock. The people telling us to stay gone are a plague on this community and their complacency will only let more and more bad decisions to go by without positive and negative feedback. This forum is not only for saying “Yay I’m happy!” We have the right to voice our discontent on here too, and telling us to go and stay gone makes you look like a tremendously uncaring person.

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But THIS is also the problem. I don't have an issue with people voicing their concerns for the game, and looking to have a dialogue about it. MY problem is when people feel the need to announce that they have quit the game, and expect me to care. I'm not going to have a conversation with a person who has already quit. FOR WHAT? that's a complete waste of my time. I'd rather talk to people who has these concerns but are still willing to play. Those are the people I feel should be heard. If you're the person that likes to hold the game ransom until you get what you want, I have no sympathy for you. and I will ALWAYS say that this is really just a game, and like any and every other game, if it doesn't meet your basic level criteria for a game that you would play, then stop playing. There's nothing wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

[I]Whether one cares about the genderlocks or not, let's make one thing clear: if anyone thinks that bunny girls are okay but that bunny guys are weird, they are practicing a toxic, sexist bias.

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How dare you call Yoshi P sexist when he's trying to prevent another calamity from Balmung and Mateus! He should be branded a hero by now!

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

But THIS is also the problem. I don't have an issue with people voicing their concerns for the game, and looking to have a dialogue about it. MY problem is when people feel the need to announce that they have quit the game, and expect me to care. I'm not going to have a conversation with a person who has already quit. FOR WHAT? that's a complete waste of my time. I'd rather talk to people who has these concerns but are still willing to play. Those are the people I feel should be heard. If you're the person that likes to hold the game ransom until you get what you want, I have no sympathy for you. and I will ALWAYS say that this is really just a game, and like any and every other game, if it doesn't meet your basic level criteria for a game that you would play, then stop playing. There's nothing wrong with that.

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At the same time, leaving their feedback on the OF as for why they're quitting is, to my knowledge, the only way SE might (remotely) see why submission numbers might drop, as I don't believe there is a thing of "before you go, please tell us the reason for leaving us" when you cancel your subscription. So them leaving their reason for why they'd be quitting on the OF is still a valid course of action. I'm not quitting despite my own disappointment with one or two aspects of it, because I have good faith in Yoshi-P and the dev team that there will be far more things that I will enjoy than things that have me disappointed. It's been the case for me so far these past six years.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

How dare you call Yoshi P sexist when he's trying to prevent another calamity from Balmung and Mateus! He should be branded a hero by now!

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Lmfao.

This is the only alternative perspective I'll accept. Bless up.

i think it also revealed the fact that part of the problem is that the problem is "invisible" thefore not percieved as there is always an excuse - that you are a troll, that we have miqote, that whatever is the excuse at the moment.

maybe this is just a forum game therefore it's a very specific social category we are speaking of, but it shows how toxicity is still very very high and the possibility of debate is almost non existent.
:)

what i hope at least is that people that see the problem will feel a little better seeing that the problem has been risen somehow. ♥

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Originally Posted by UserHere

SE did't ask us but if given a choice what you rather have?

1) F Viera & M Ronso
2) F/M Viera
3) F/M Ronso
4) F/M Viera & F/M Ronso

SE chose 1. The player base might have chosen 1, 2 or 3, we we never asked.

The devs and the players both know choice 4 is by far the best, but it just might not have been feasible at the moment. I frankly won't be surprised if come next FF Yoshi announces they are adding the other genders.

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Yeah sure let's SE spoiled one of the most interresting part of fanfest by asking what we want because we're obviously here watching/attending to learn about where the heck Jimmy the chocobo go after being summoned for 30 minutes.
Also races/classes are shown once they're ready or almost ready to be release. Of course they aren't going to ask us.

Edit: Players who care about FF lore will agree with 1)
or more with 5) F Viera F/M Ronso but will accept for fairness reason to not have F ronso.

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Originally Posted by Varathael

as I don't believe there is a thing of "before you go, please tell us the reason for leaving us" when you cancel your subscription.

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I was surprised to discover yesterday that there actually is, though it's a multiple choice question with only very basic options. If you want to leave in depth feedback you're still going to have to go to the OF.

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Originally Posted by SpiritMuse

I was surprised to discover yesterday that there actually is, though it's a multiple choice question with only very basic options. If you want to leave in depth feedback you're still going to have to go to the OF.

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Which SE is known for not reading. Why? Because of stuff like this. Hyperfocusing on the negatives. If they read any feedback, you'd best believe Diadem and Eureka would of been canned.

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Originally Posted by Varathael

At the same time, leaving their feedback on the OF as for why they're quitting is, to my knowledge, the only way SE might (remotely) see why submission numbers might drop, as I don't believe there is a thing of "before you go, please tell us the reason for leaving us" when you cancel your subscription. So them leaving their reason for why they'd be quitting on the OF is still a valid course of action. I'm not quitting despite my own disappointment with one or two aspects of it, because I have good faith in Yoshi-P and the dev team that there will be far more things that I will enjoy than things that have me disappointed. It's been the case for me so far these past six years.

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uuhhhh....

Lets be honest with ourselves. The people who come on these forums and announce their mass exodus is not doing it for SE to see, and probably don't even think it would trigger a response from SE anyway. No, they're doing it for us, the people that they know will read their posts, and will reply to it. They want us to read their post so they can,

A) validate their feelings by seeing others reply to their posts with the same thoughts and opinions.
B) Baiting responses from dissenting people to have the same, tired discussions that are had everyday (someone like me for instance).

See, whenever there's something happening that people don't like, they start these unsub trains, the whole vote with your wallet thing. But how often do these posts EVER result in the change the unsubbers are hoping for?

When we saw the initial SB trailer, and everybody just KNEW that lyse (still Yda at the time, you know that person that was always clearly a monk) was a dancer. They begged for dancer to be released (not as a healer btw). When we found out that (obviously) she was indeed a monk, unsubscribes train sparks. She's still a monk though right?

When the god forsaken jump potions were announced. You couldn't log in and not see at least 20 DIFFERENT & NEW forum posts every single day talking about how people are quitting, unsubbing, deleting chars, canceling accounts. it was massive, and yet, we still have them. There's even a very well timed sale going on for them right now.

same thing happened just recently when we found out BLU was going to be a limited job. The unsubscribes posts were nonstop, yet BLU happened the way they wanted it to all the same.

So it begs the question. Is the purpose of these unsub posts truly for SE's sake? I don't think so. They are for the people who frequent these forums.

but you know what would REALLY make SE pay attention to the people that Unsub? If all the people that threatened to unsub actually just unsubbed.

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Originally Posted by redcurrant18

I have come to the following conclusion. We have one group who is clearly upset over the gender locks and has come to the forums to voice their opinion, and another group who appears complacent and seeks to shut down any dissent aka “white knighting.”

Let me say this. Glamour and races may not matter to you. Congrats. It matters to a lot of other people though and you don’t have the right to make them feel like trash. Attacks have been flung at people who wanted male Viera due to sexuality, masculinity/feminity, etc. These comments are vicious and have no place here. The true sexism and homophobia is coming from the people making these comments, along with whoever decided to go through with the gender locks.

Also, me and many others have canceled our subscriptions over this gender lock. The people telling us to stay gone are a plague on this community and their complacency will only let more and more bad decisions to go by without positive and negative feedback. This forum is not only for saying “Yay I’m happy!” We have the right to voice our discontent on here too, and telling us to go and stay gone makes you look like a tremendously uncaring person.

Lastly, let’s discuss threats. Telling me that “natural selection should come for me” in response to my posts in the Gender Lock thread is not an acceptable way to argue pro-gender lock points. That comment was so extreme that I’m surprised the poster is not banned when I have been banned for less. That is the kind of homophobia and extremism that results in hate crimes in real life, and I demand that action be taken against such behavior now.

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Every decision they make, that doesn't cater to you, is not an attack on you.
It's too bad you see it as a huge problem, but most people don't. It's just that it's a minor cosmetic issue at best, for most; I'm pretty sure you would have been complacent, had the topic been about something you liked, and other ppl were upset about.
People have made harsh criticism on pretty much every aspect of the game, since before it was made, so why paint an image that yours is the first and last?
Just a tip, it has nothing to do with what you say, but how you present it (not talking about you specifically here) you can make a valid and good point for why it sucks, and get no negative feedback.
There's just one reason why there's no male Viera, that is because Viera is a Female-only-warrior-society, which it has been since its inception. It's like complaining about Wonder Woman being sexist movie, cause there's no male Amazones - that's the entire point of the Amazones! and Viera too.

On the topic of hate, spite, negativity, i totally agree with you, and find it quite baffling more comments aren't being deleted (can't say anything about who's getting bans or not)
But there's loads of threads, and many comments, so they can't instantly delete posts, it will take time.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

Every decision they make, that doesn't cater to you, is not an attack on you.
It's too bad you see it as a huge problem, but most people don't. It's just that it's a minor cosmetic issue at best, for most; I'm pretty sure you would have been complacent, had the topic been about something you liked, and other ppl were upset about.
People have made harsh criticism on pretty much every aspect of the game, since before it was made, so why paint an image that yours is the first and last?
Just a tip, it has nothing to do with what you say, but how you present it (not talking about you specifically here) you can make a valid and good point for why it sucks, and get no negative feedback.
There's just one reason why there's no male Viera, that is because Viera is a Female-only-warrior-society, which it has been since its inception. It's like complaining about Wonder Woman being sexist movie, cause there's no male Amazones - that's the entire point of the Amazones! and Viera too.

On the topic of hate, spite, negativity, i totally agree with you, and find it quite baffling more comments aren't being deleted (can't say anything about who's getting bans or not)
But there's loads of threads, and many comments, so they can't instantly delete posts, it will take time.

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I wouldn't describe the Viera as a "warrior woman only" society. Lore for Viera has it where the males are fiercely territorial in both 12 and 14, and 14's lore has it where they protect the forest from intruders. Those who do see a male Viera when intruding into their lands are like to experience it as their very last sight, according to the Draumaturge.

OP I'm going to reiterate, so you canceled your sub over a gender lock? Yea you can stay gone. It's a dumb reason to quit....

Mad? Yea that's fine. Quit? Bye felicia!

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

I didn't call the comment homophobic, I called it sexist. These are two different things, and we're fortunate enough to have google available to educate you. Use it.

"Lore" as an explanation is not valid when 1) you can have eight WHMs in a party and 2) they write the lore to their desires. In this case, they've written the lore in such a way to keep out those "weird" Viera males.

Also, we appreciate you showing your true feelings on the matter. You hate those raunchy gays, is that it? You've decided that anyone who wants male Viera is a homosexual ERPer and you don't want those people in your game.

Tell you what, we'll concede your point once you find examples of my pUbLiC hOmOsExUaL RP!?!?!

You can't, and you won't. You've decided to make up some imaginary boogeyman in your head because you have no other point to make that won't include made-up quotes and false assumptions of character. You mock, demean and disparage because your arguments are as empty as your head.

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lore on vierra goes back to ff12. they had a village of all females. its highly unlikely that bunny men were erased by yoshida with this in mind.

also, not really sexist. they already have effiminite men, and therevis no indication vierra males would be effiminate.

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Originally Posted by Illianaro

Just wanted to take a moment to speak to this piece of it, and just give my perspective as to why I didn't care about it then but care about it now. In FFXII, I played as other characters - as Vaan, Fran, Basch, Ashe, etc... Fran was a Viera I played as, but never my character. Viera lore always fascinated me.

But here, I play my own character, for whom I conceive backstories and personalities, and even plan out character arcs (I'm a writer, literally always writing). We're going to the Viera homeland in Shadowbringers. I took male Viera as given once it became clear the race was coming. I get that SE never promised us males, and I acknowledge that I assumed.

With the combination of ShB news and Viera lore, I came up with an awesome backstory for my character, with personality traits and idiosyncracies. I was really excited to be a male Viera. I feel really let down that I don't get to run around as that character. May still write his story though.

Look, people on both sides of this argument are running on intense emotions. Neither side of the disagreement is a hoard of demons or whatever, but we've spent the last 48 hours throwing some pretty horrific, personal attacks at one another. This isn't productive, and really does reflect the worst in us - on both sides.

We all love FFXIV, and are all passionate, and all care about different things. We can be productive - and even disagree - without turning on each other like this.

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but, there are virtually no male vierra in the lore of 12, or now in xiv. If you accept lore exists, its not surprising you may not have access to everything you could conceptualizs.

but i feel like by now, you were either very lucky, or not too creative, because the vast majority of possible charachters you can conceptualize have never been available for creation. Children, people with fat on them. older people of most backround, etc.

its fine to be disappointed and ask for what you want, but dont act like developers wronged you, or are out to oppress people because they made a choice you didnt like.

you here is not primarily the poster, but the people making those claims.

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Originally Posted by Physic

lore on vierra goes back to ff12. they had a village of all females. its highly unlikely that bunny men were erased by yoshida with this in mind.

also, not really sexist. they already have effiminite men, and therevis no indication vierra males would be effiminate.

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I don't think they would be (or need to be) effeminate. It's more of an issue, specifically, with the dev team having a hangup regarding boys with bunny ears.

Seriously though, it's like I've said before regarding Yoshi's "having a rabbit male might be kind of weird" comment. This, along with the men of the dev team (the men, specifically, as stated by Yoshi himself) actually refusing to work on the bunny outfit for male characters because it made them "uncomfortable". They had to ask female members of the team to work on it, resulting in it taking longer. They made the women do the work because the men straight up refused. How wild is that?

Let's really unpack that; as others have said, we do already have skimp options for males in the game. Why is there an issue creating a skimpy variation of the bunny outfit for men? It's because, as Yoshi stated before, bunny boys are "weird" for them. You'd think they'd just make them somewhat buff bunny boys or something, but this is obviously a hangup for the dev team.

Bunny women and girls with bunny ears have long been something of a feminine sex symbol, or a symbol of femininity in general. For them it's uncomfortable to put boys in bunny ears due to the longtime associations. It's not like I think the dev team is evil, but I do think they conform to a trend which has its basis in casual, societal sexism.

They are under no obligation to give players everything they want, but it deserves to be called out for what it is.

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Originally Posted by Varathael

I wouldn't describe the Viera as a "warrior woman only" society. Lore for Viera has it where the males are fiercely territorial in both 12 and 14, and 14's lore has it where they protect the forest from intruders. Those who do see a male Viera when intruding into their lands are like to experience it as their very last sight, according to the Draumaturge.

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so they have 0 interest in leaving their territory, to be part of the outside world, which gets us back to gender locking :)
well it's a stretch to even have female Viera, considering they are little better in that department.
It's awkward to have the warrior of light, being of a xenophobic race/culture. or said race running a RP cafe.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

so they have 0 interest in leaving their territory, to be part of the outside world, which gets us back to gender locking :)
well it's a stretch to even have female Viera, considering they are little better in that department.
It's awkward to have the warrior of light, being of a xenophobic race/culture. or said race running a RP cafe.

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While fair, female Viera leaving the forests are also exceedingly rare; those like Fran are viewed as outcasts, as family no longer. They lose the ability to hear the Green Word, are ostracized. Fran is very much a rarity, it's why people look at her as a curiosity in FF12.

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Originally Posted by Physic

but, there are virtually no male vierra in the lore of 12, or now in xiv. If you accept lore exists, its not surprising you may not have access to everything you could conceptualizs.

but i feel like by now, you were either very lucky, or not too creative, because the vast majority of possible charachters you can conceptualize have never been available for creation. Children, people with fat on them. older people of most backround, etc.

its fine to be disappointed and ask for what you want, but dont act like developers wronged you, or are out to oppress people because they made a choice you didnt like.

you here is not primarily the poster, but the people making those claims.

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I dunno... I had enough information to come up with at least a basis for a character. A viera taken away from his home and family at a young age, once it became clear he was male. Raised by a fellow viera who became the closest to family he had, a mentor, who taught him to fend for himself, to fight, to protect the forest, always thinking of the family he was forced to leave behind. Or, better yet, a male viera who was hidden when it became clear he was male, and found later on - as the lore I saw indicated that this happened from time to time.

A viera raised among only another viera, in the wilderness, would have a bit of a wilder personality, protective, tentative about other people, with less social grooming - as social awareness is not as vital as being able to hunt, feed yourself, survive, and protect the forest from outsiders. Wouldn't necessarily be a loner, but would struggle to make connections because of a trained guardedness.

Then the male viera, during those rare times of going back to the villages, learns his sister left the wood at great risk. Gets the idea that he's going to get out there and find her. He manages to escape the wood, almost dying in the process. It sets up conflict between him and his mentor. It sets up at least intriguing interactions with the world. It sets up some fun RP implications in game. And boom, I have the broad strokes for a start of a story.

It's not complete, and maybe it's not super creative, but it's enough for me to get excited at the idea. I don't mind if others don't find the idea original - I was enjoying the theorycrafting.

Looking forward to being female lion but since there not going to be one saves me from buying a fantasia. Doesn't affect me any but will SE sales from not selling as many fantasia from ones that would bought them. To me Viera just ugly with those super tall ears. Unless they can be made shorter won't even consider changing to one.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

This, along with the men of the dev team (the men, specifically, as stated by Yoshi himself) actually refusing to work on the bunny outfit for male characters because it made them "uncomfortable". They had to ask female members of the team to work on it, resulting in it taking longer. They made the women do the work because the men straight up refused. How wild is that?

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I actually think they would've been more comfortable working on it, had they actually made what the majority of people were asking for. Most, from what I saw, wanted a unique male version of the bunny suit. Like a Chippendales type thing. Instead, they went with the female version slapped on males (likely from misunderstanding). Which, btw, I have seen maybe twice since they added them. And it was only in Eureka. Obviously it was not what the majority of people wanted, and I'd be interested to know how many male characters actually glamour it.

Still, it's not "backwards" to respect other cultures' societal norms. You wouldn't, for instance, go into a Muslim country and tell the women to take their hajib off. The more progressive action is to work with and try to understand other cultures and why they might feel uncomfortable putting something in their IP. Instead of insulting them, calling for boycotts, or storming out of the room like a spoiled child. But I don't want to "white knight" here, so...

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Originally Posted by TarynH

I actually think they would've been more comfortable working on it, had they actually made what the majority of people were asking for. Most, from what I saw, wanted a unique male version of the bunny suit. Like a Chippendales type thing. Instead, they went with the female version slapped on males (likely from misunderstanding). Which, btw, I have seen maybe twice since they added them. And it was only in Eureka. Obviously it was not what the majority of people wanted, and I'd be interested to know how many male characters actually glamour it.

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I see it daily, but you can also see that I'm currently on Mateus. There are a ton of people here annnnd well, you see a lot. LOL. I didn't really care for the implementation of the outfit myself, but 1) I wouldn't have worn it no matter what it looked like and 2) I think it's fine that some enjoy it for what it is. Different strokes and all that. There are definitely outfits that see even less wear, I'll tell you that, and frankly there really shouldn't be a discussion about whether or not it should be included. Distribute the assets equally, even if you have to negotiate the design to better compliment male/female form.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TarynH

Still, it's not "backwards" to respect other cultures' societal norms. You wouldn't, for instance, go into a Muslim country and tell the women to take their hajib off. The more progressive action is to work with and try to understand other cultures and why they might feel uncomfortable putting something in their IP. Instead of insulting them, calling for boycotts, or storming out of the room like a spoiled child. But I don't want to "white knight" here, so...

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I would also not tell women from Muslim nations that they have to wear them, either. One thing people need to understand is that societal norms can be bad. It wasn't so long ago that racial discrimination in America was a widely accepted societal norm. Jim Crow laws were enforced until 1965, and not everywhere in the world is as socially progressive. Where is the empathy for the people living within these cultures who don't conform to these outdated societal norms, or are otherwise forced to do so to the detriment of their qualify of life? People around the world are still fighting tooth and nail for every scrap of equality they can get, even in America. It's an endless fight for what amounts to common decency. People are tired.

Having said that, I agree that we can work together respectfully. But respect goes both ways. They already know we don't like genderlocked races and they've told us before that we won't have them. Between that and showing us concept art of male Viera, their decision came out of left field and then they refused to even address it for over a month until the final fanfest. This was not handled well on their end. Queue disappointment and outrage.