This video tells you why some people thought FFXIV 1.2. is a better MMO than 2.0

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Originally Posted by ShanXiv

If 1.2x wasn't great, you won't get so much hype about 2.0,
In fact, it was our 1.2x players, hype it up before 2.0 release

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While it is true that 1.2x players did indeed lend great support to the hype of 2.0, you're forgetting some details.

1: Final Fantasy is one of the world's most loved gaming franchises and it's over 20 years old. Its fanbase is huge. 1.2x and 2.0 weren't obscure games. A lot of fans who had not played yet were waiting for 2.0 because it was essentially a new FF game to play, and also anyone who didn't have a pc would finally have a new FF mmo they could play. Anyone who loved the FF series knew about XIV. SE's fame certainly carried them to a degree.

2: SE dismantling their latest mmo and building a new one from the ashes very quickly gained legendary status among the mmo community. Attempting such a thing was almost unheard of, and certainly the success of something to this degree never happened before. Five years later XIV is still the only mmo to accomplish success with anything like this. I personally know people who never played a FF game who were very curious about XIV because of this, and they bought 2.0.

3: SE had no choice but to make 2.0. 1.0's ill-fated release nearly destroyed SE. It truly looked like one of the mightiest jrpg kings would be dethroned. The only way to convince their fans and their shareholders that they could make a solid mmo was to...well, make a solid mmo. Especially to their shareholders because they invested their money into the project and it flopped, so they lost money. That's an incredible amount of financial pressure. SE simply could not leave XIV behind and hope to recover from it, because they wouldn't have survived.

4: SE created their own hype by doing a 180 by becoming hugely involved with the playerbase. Players feeling like they truly had impact on the state of the game definitely inspired them to play more, and be more constructive and active with their feedback. And this resulted in the point you brought up: the 1.2x players helping with 2.0.

1.2x's players were instrumental in not only creating hype for 2.0, but also for the sort of game 2.0 ended up being due to feedback. But let's not pretend that they were the only important factor. SE's long time fame, great reputation and the risk of ruin was equally important.

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Originally Posted by ShanXiv

You see? many rumors you heard are wrong (1.0 sucks =/= 1.23 sucks) , it's just like 2.0, many contents in 2.0 had been done wrong,
SE just fired XV director you know? Too many things are wrong now....

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What rumours? 1.2x is a different game to 2.0 because most players, as well as most developers in Yoshida's team did not think 1.2x was good enough, and from a technical point of view it was horrible to work with to the point it severely lacked longevity. This is not an opinion. This is fact. If the "rumours" weren't true then 2.0 would have been an expansion and not a reincarnation of XIV.

Sorry but you liking something doesn't automatically mean it was better in every way. You liking 1.2x doesn't change that the game was unstable, it doesn't change that most players wanted something more or different, and it doesn't change that it was a nightmare for the devs to work on it.

You are truly mixing up fact with personal taste. They are not the same thing. I don't think you could even be called a white knight. You're too blind to wield a weapon.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Nobody is talking about 24 man raids. The issue isn't the number of players in the raid, it is that the number is a fixed amount. 7 players availalbe tonight ? screwed. 9 players available tonight ? Screwed also.

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Agreed. I don't think most people would think the only solution to a rigidly "restricted party size" would be a full-blown Alliance Raid (though, honestly, every other MMO I've played have managed well enough despite having, say, 25 people to manage), but more alike to... 6-to-10 people. Admittedly, it's harder to balance, which is probably why it seems nearly a ridiculous idea for XIV, especially while it only has two difficulties -- significant and trivial -- and no concept remotely approaching personal loot or embedded DKP or the like. But, if we could get it close enough, and add just a few other features, and change out pages for a more granular currency (which--small bonus--wouldn't take up inventory space), we could probably flex all but the bonus boss of each Savage tier even with just the two existing difficulty ranks.

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Originally Posted by ShanXiv

You see? many rumors you heard are wrong (1.0 sucks =/= 1.23 sucks) , it's just like 2.0, many contents in 2.0 had been done wrong,
SE just fired XV director you know? Too many things are wrong now....

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What rumour? The game literally failed because it was that bad, it's an undeniable fact that it was so bad that not enough people stuck around to play it resulting in it's closure.

Also, love being called a white knight, always know I'm on the winning side of the argument when people resort to this all too common buzzword insult these days.

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Originally Posted by ShanXiv

And because the 1.2x experience, I was a white knight too when 2.0 just released.

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...You still kind of are for the game that everyone else was fine with leaving behind. If you want to stay in the past, that's fine, but let the rest of us move into the future without your nonsense and rose colored glasses.

Please no more vanilla servers. Between WOW and LOTRO. Its getting old

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Originally Posted by Aniond

Please no more vanilla servers. Between WOW and LOTRO. Its getting old

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Not to mention there's frankly not enough interest in 1.0 to warrant it. Unlike vanilla Wow and LoTRO the majority doesn't hold positive feelings for that time period, or at least not in enough numbers to actually subscribe and keep even one server up and running.

While I tend to wonder what it would have been like to be a part of 1.0, I do not regret being here now. I can understand why some would miss the nostalgia of "old times", but... I feel as though there isn't a true way to recapture that initial feeling of wonder and amazement. 1.0 was beautiful and the animations were much more robust, but I watch videos of players running around the godforsaken copy-n-paste landscapes, and... oof.

Personally, I'm happy with the game and haven't grown bored. I'm going into my 3rd year of playing, in fact. I wouldn't bother staying subbed if I were this miserable and bored with it, though... so why do you stay subbed, OP?

Come FFXVI/FFXVII, whichever is the next MMO, there's going to be threads like this about "the golden days of FFXIV" when it was "the best MMO available" and "truly the pinnacle of FF MMOs" because nostalgia will always be a thing.

Please look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Enla

Not to mention there's frankly not enough interest in 1.0 to warrant it. Unlike vanilla Wow and LoTRO the majority doesn't hold positive feelings for that time period, or at least not in enough numbers to actually subscribe and keep even one server up and running.

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The thing about WoW is very few will admit the game was riddled with bugs and issues, and the community was what made it great. A community that will never come back, I doubt the classic servers will last all that long. MMO's that never get content may as well be dead.

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Originally Posted by ShanXiv

FFXIV 1.0 sold 600k copies it was because SE stop selling it after the game released for one or two months? in 2010.
not because 1.2x contents are bad, there were a lot of return players during 1.2 period,

If 1.2x wasn't great, you won't get so much hype about 2.0,
In fact, it was our 1.2x players, hype it up before 2.0 release
that's why you saw so many people joined 2.0 alhpa & beta, & people had so much passion on a new game

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...pretty sure it wasnt the legacy people hyping it up, but rather SE being "We fixed everything, please give it another chance!" and a huge add-campaign. Personally I didnt got to this game because a legacy player invited me but because I saw an add with a free beta-key in a german games magazine.

People returning to the game for its final moments also says little about the actual quality of the game and more about the wish of those players to say "Goodbye" - or possibly get the promised items in the hope that ARR would be better..

And I'm pretty sure 1.0 only selling 600k wasnt due to SE not producing anymore. I doubt that people were trying to buy the game and got turned away because "Sorry, mate, SE doesnt make that game anymore" - but rather SE noticing what a HUGE flop 1.0 was and so they stopped funeling more money into producing copies of a game that no one wants to play.
Also: Did I missread that in this thread or didnt the whole thing went freetoplay at a certain point, in an attempt to safe the game? And didnt that fail aswell?

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Originally Posted by ShanXiv

Yes, 2.0 graphics，UI，QoL changes are wonderful, no one denies that.
and ARR gaming experience is great at the beginning.

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Every games experience is great in the sense of wonder and amazement in the beginning, because everything is literally new to you - you have to learn the rules and basics of the game. And while yes, that feeling slips away the longer you play, thats neither exclusive to this game nor is it a truely surprising or bad thing.
Looking at the beginning of ARR without the rose tinted glasses of "Hach, my first hours in Eorzea...!" its not that great anymore. The storytelling is slow, involves a lot of fetchquests and while the dungeons are great for learning the ropes and have some slightly intresting puzzle-mechanics, most bossfights are rather boring. Same goes for the lowlevel jobs - not a great experience.
So, that "great experience" comes from exploring a whole new world and a whole new game - not from the beginning of ARR being the Holy Gral of Gaming.

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Originally Posted by ShanXiv

And because the 1.2x experience, I was a white knight too when 2.0 just released,
why I had to defend 2.0? here's a little story: it's because a guy in my FC, he's a XI player,
because 1.2x leave him a good impression too, he bought 4 ARR copies(that's why ARR sold a lot lol..) & gave them to his XI friends(his friends tried 1.0 & quit),
if 1.2x isn't good, he won't do that.

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Sure he would do that! I mean, I cant speak for your friends motives here, but: It is totally possible that he was aware that 1.0 and even 1.2 were still so bad that his friends wouldnt play it. So he waited for the ARR-release, banking on the promise that it would make everything better.

And yes, those 4 copies that your friend brought are the whole reason for ARR selling more copies than 1.0...!
And not SE investing a lot of money into adds...

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Originally Posted by ShanXiv

After 2.0 just released, he was hanging around in the game,
he run to Mor Dhona & check the tomestone vendors when he was only level 1,
after 1 or 2 days, he said: "ARR is a WOW clone". my reaction was:"WHAT? THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE, 1.2x contents are enjoyable, SE has no reason to do this."
& time had proved he's right. He & his XI friends quit ARR after one month & never comeback,
for these people, 2.0 is worse than 1.2x, it no longer has any chance

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So... without even seeing most of the game, he decided that it sucked and quit? Surely an opinion that one can trust, based on foundation and such!

But: Fair is fair. Different people can like different things. I dont wanna belittle anyone for their taste here - if 1.2 and FFXI worked for you and your friends: Great!
If ARR and the follow ups dont work for you anymore: Sad!
But at the same time ARR work great for a lot of people.
And you dont need to tell them why you like 1.2 better or convince them that its the better game - it might be for you, but beside no one being able to play 1.2 anyways, you dont need to convince anyone here about that.

Stick with games that you like to play - stick with FFXI, find something thats more to your taste... we'll stick with FFXIV as it is today. Deal?

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Originally Posted by ShanXiv

You see? many rumors you heard are wrong (1.0 sucks =/= 1.23 sucks) , it's just like 2.0, many contents in 2.0 had been done wrong,
SE just fired XV director you know? Too many things are wrong now....

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What rumors are wrong?
Certainly not the one that 1.0 almost bankrupted the company, that 1.2 was a band aid fix and that ARR saved not only the game but SE as whole...
No one denies that there might have been good ideas within 1.0 or 1.2 - but at the end there werent enough of them.

About firing that XV-director: What was wrong here is that he was losing the company money by putting more and more into XV-DLCs without getting enough out of it. At least thats my guess. He made bad choices and being let go is the consequence.




Let me ask you again:
Why are you here?
Why do you bother playing a game that you dont enjoy anymore?

Stop torturing yourself. If it helps I'll answer your question from a few pages back:
Yes, there is no hope left. All the good people are gone. SE is dead. You can leave and mourn them now.
(No one tell them that the rest of us will continue to play and enjoy our game!)

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Originally Posted by Alestorm

The thing about WoW is very few will admit the game was riddled with bugs and issues, and the community was what made it great. A community that will never come back, I doubt the classic servers will last all that long. MMO's that never get content may as well be dead.

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Oh definitely. It's a gimmick and one that has no staying power. However at least with WoW they had the unofficial, private vanilla server and the outrage generated by it's closing to propel them into making it a reality. There was enough demand there to warrant even just one server being made, even if only for a short enough amount of time to make back the money needed to make it happen. With FFXIV 1.0 there's just nothing... Not even good positive feelings from the general community to hook potential newcomers to pop in and see what all the fuss was about.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Also: Did I missread that in this thread or didnt the whole thing went freetoplay at a certain point, in an attempt to safe the game? And didnt that fail aswell?

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They thought the game wasn't good enough to justify a subscription fee until 1.18 (I think). At that time, they realized that patching the game would not be enough and they needed more funds to rebuild it from the ground, and that's what gave us the Legacy status. So from a marketing standpoint, I'd say it kinda worked.

Personally, I'd say that by 1.18, the game was not that bad, even though the servers were horrible. But at the same time, they already scrapped most of what I think was interesting in 1.x in favor of more streamlined ideas, instead of fixing and improving them.

One thing to remind though, is that a majority of the fanbase was not comfortable with FF being an MMO. At its peek, FF XI had a population of around 500k, pretty "low" considering mainline FF sells far above the million units. And frankly, digging to find the first updates of FFXI, if the game was released worldwide, it would have probably been destroyed like XIV was.

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Originally Posted by ShanXiv

FFXIV 1.0 sold 600k copies it was because SE stop selling it after the game released for one or two months? in 2010.
not because 1.2x contents are bad, there were a lot of return players during 1.2 period,

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... there's so much wrong here, I don't know where to start.

first off. Why don't you just stop? Anybody who is a Final Fantasy fan can disprove your citation-less rants.

Second, every "fact" you say I want you to link where you are getting this information. Not just tell me, link it. Let me read it for myself so I can without bias believe any claim you may say that is actually a fact.

Third, your points.

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it was our 1.2x players, hype it up before 2.0 release

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Where are you pulling this from? I heard this from friends. None of them played 1.x. No, not 1.0. 1.X which is ANYTHING from 1.0-1.23. Literally, the person who told me about this and introduced me to the game was someone who only knew about it because a site he frequented said that it was worth a shot. He, as far as I know, never knew anybody who played 1.x. And I introduced 3 other people indirectly like that without knowing anybody who played before then. I'm an introvert, and most of my friends are too. It's why I am certain of what I'm saying.

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And because the 1.2x experience, I was a white knight too when 2.0 just released,

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This is for everyone else that reads this... is this irony? Is this statement here irony?

I'm not even white knighting FFXIV at all. In fact, all I'm trying to get you to realize is that you are ranting, raving, foaming at the mouth all because we enjoy a game and you don't and maybe you shouldn't play the game that gets you to act like this. I learned this with games before, it's why I don't play Overwatch anymore. I play Overwatch and I get angry, I get really upset, if someone wants to play as the character I want to I slagged them off in voice. My answer? Stop playing Overwatch. Maybe you should consider this.

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for these people, 2.0 is worse than 1.2x, it no longer has any chance

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THEN STOP PLAYING IT. If it doesn't have another chance, TELL THAT TO SQUARE BY, say it with me, NOT PAYING FOR THEIR PRODUCT ON A MONTHLY BASIS. It's the only way companies understand is not getting money.

If you are not enjoying something, stop doing what you are not enjoying. And if you are here ranting and raving at us because we are still playing when you aren't playing, then you should stop. All you are doing is making your own life more stressful. Hell, this will be the last post I put here given how many times I've said this and how cyclical this is getting.

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You see? many rumors you heard are wrong (1.0 sucks =/= 1.23 sucks) , it's just like 2.0, many contents in 2.0 had been done wrong,
SE just fired XV director you know? Too many things are wrong now....

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What rumors? I heard this directly from the source of fans who played FFXIV 1.23 on the bus in my high school, in my classes in my high school who were not friends and I stopped talking to after high school, but even if I did they'd probably tell me how bad the experience was again because they were telling me how bad it was up until the day one of them told me there was a scene with Bahamut destroying the world, and he even said, in his words, "it's almost as if this was an apology for creating a god-awful game."

yes, many 2.x+ content have been done wrong. But pinning this on all the reasons you have been is inherently disingenuous and people have called you out on this. You've pinned this on: Yoshi-P being a bad designer (which... I'm not going to touch with a 100 foot pole, don't reply with it), Them flubbing the style (Eureka), them being lazy, them not being in touch with the fans, and most recent of all, people white knighting the game and making it look better. At the same time, you seem to very carefully omit what they did RIGHT. Ultimate is one of the best raiding contents in the game ever. Alphascape is a solid end to the Omega series, even if certain ones could have been a little less lackluster, Pyros gives me hope that Hydatos will be good, POTD was well-received enough for them to clone it with Heaven on High without really doing anything special with it that it needed so badly, the EX trials of Heavensward are some of the best content in the game (that one might be my opinion), and the music is some of the best in the entire franchise (that ALSO might be my opinion.

And finally... Didn't the FFXV director leave? He wasn't fired. In fact, I thought he left to make a new game studio and took some of the FFXV staff with him, and wasn't fired. But just left because he thought the time was right. Also, your "Too many things are wrong now" just rings of a desperate fanboy/girl who clings onto the past like that's when things were the best to the point that you have to shout at people that the past was good and deny all facts just to keep them from ruining your precious rose-tinted glasses.

I'm done since this is seeming pointless.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Agreed. I don't think most people would think the only solution to a rigidly "restricted party size" would be a full-blown Alliance Raid (though, honestly, every other MMO I've played have managed well enough despite having, say, 25 people to manage), but more alike to... 6-to-10 people. Admittedly, it's harder to balance, which is probably why it seems nearly a ridiculous idea for XIV, especially while it only has two difficulties -- significant and trivial -- and no concept remotely approaching personal loot or embedded DKP or the like. But, if we could get it close enough, and add just a few other features, and change out pages for a more granular currency (which--small bonus--wouldn't take up inventory space), we could probably flex all but the bonus boss of each Savage tier even with just the two existing difficulty ranks.

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This is one area where XI really smashed it and also a big reason why the community bonds there were much stronger. the sheer amount of flexibility in a lot of it's content simply meant pretty much everyone was able to participate.

got 14 people you can do and do limbus.. only got 4 people. you can still go and do limbus.
17 people turned up for sky or dynamis. no problem. 27 people turned up for sky or dynamis again no problem. it didnt matter how many people you had there was always something you could do and everyone could be included.

even times where we had like 23 people turn up for omega well half of us dont need any of the drops so some of us can pair off and go work on another pop set for the ls..

this has always been what 14 really lacks. and it's social bonds and connections really suffer for it.. alot of the time you cant even rotate people because if you have 12 people and 8 of them clear savage. they cant then go and help the other 4 because they'll kill the loot drops... or your restricted in other ways.such as potd and hoh only having 2 saves to work with.

This is why people have wanted FC based content since well EVER basically. something groups of people can actually work on together and have everyone feel included.. strengthen the bonds and build stronger communities.

there's not much worse than saying "hey anyone wanna do "insert content"? and having like 5 or 10 people all say yes... someones gonna be feeling left out.....

or you can be like hey wanna help me get lakshmis mount. 5 people say yes. and now your forced to get 2 pugs who might also want the mount and thus mess your whole plan up.... at this point that fight is easily managable with 6

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Originally Posted by ShanXiv

before XIV 1.2 server shut down, all servers are full of people,(that's why the sever crashed

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Originally Posted by ShanXiv

so this is not rose-tinted glasses or nostalgia or what , I am just telling the fact

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So SE shut down a very successful game just to spite the (many) players who liked it :thinking:

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let's go back to the failed version that almost killed the whole Final Fantasy genre, because it had nicer cutscenes and I'm nostalgic about the way they shut it down! XD

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and there the 1.0 and XI nostalgia crowd wonders why no one likes their ideas...

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Originally Posted by LauraAdalena

And finally... Didn't the FFXV director leave? He wasn't fired. In fact, I thought he left to make a new game studio and took some of the FFXV staff with him, and wasn't fired. But just left because he thought the time was right.

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While he did leave "on his own account" its probably only a way for everyone involved - both Tabata and SE - to save their faces.
Firing someone or getting fired is bad taste in japan and its most likely that they offered him to quit instead of firing him.

Someone must have realised that FFXV and those DLCs were losing them money, instead of making it - so they canceled the DLCs and parted ways with the person responsible for wasting their money.
So... in my humble opinion the thing that was wrong here is was the vision and distribution of ressources Tabata had, managed and decided.

Its kinda ironic, considering how often people on this forum complain about SE most likely taking a huge amount of the revenue of FFXIV to funel into other projects (instead of investing into this game and into Yoshis team) - one of those projects most likely being FFXV.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

They thought the game wasn't good enough to justify a subscription fee until 1.18 (I think). At that time, they realized that patching the game would not be enough and they needed more funds to rebuild it from the ground, and that's what gave us the Legacy status. So from a marketing standpoint, I'd say it kinda worked.

Personally, I'd say that by 1.18, the game was not that bad, even though the servers were horrible. But at the same time, they already scrapped most of what I think was interesting in 1.x in favor of more streamlined ideas, instead of fixing and improving them.

One thing to remind though, is that a majority of the fanbase was not comfortable with FF being an MMO. At its peek, FF XI had a population of around 500k, pretty "low" considering mainline FF sells far above the million units. And frankly, digging to find the first updates of FFXI, if the game was released worldwide, it would have probably been destroyed like XIV was.

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Ah, thank you for clarifying that!

I'd like to say that I dont believe that everything about the pre-ARR-era was bad! I'm pretty sure 1.x had (some) nice ideas and might even be better suited to the taste of some people, which is all fair! Just wanna dd that in case I came off as thinking that everything about 1.x was totally horrible - the only "horrible" thing in my book are people like the OP who cant move on and insist that the current FFXIV totally sucks for the simple reason of it not being 1.x - which just seems extremly unfair to me, even if I dont think that FFXIV as it is today is a perfect and flawless game, its still... "wrong" to expect it to be 1.x.
But I get that people have fond memories of 1.x and that the game had both kinds of content - enjoyable, good ideas and boring, content-less downtimes. Just how this game does.
(...and this was probably more directed towards the OP, not you, Reynhart... I'm not arguing against you here)

And I totally agree with your last point!
Final Fantasy as franchise has a HUGE fanbase - and I would imagine that the bad reviews of 1.0 kept a lot of FF-fans, who liked the solo-games but hestitated about playing an MMO (because, well, they enjoyed solo-games and would have played FFXIV because it was an FF, not an MMO), away.
When ARR got good reviews and everyone promised that the game was now enjoyable and playable, people who felt unsure about the whole MMO-thing but wanted to play the new FF, gave it a try.
...at least thats the case for me - never wanted to play an MMO, but loved Final Fantasy and since I had that beta-key and an encouraging friend (who also had never played an MMO, but loved FF), I gave it a shot.
I also think that thats part of the reason that this game offers a more "solo-like" experience - they are aware that not everyone playing this game comes from an MMO-background but that instead many will come from an FF-solo-background. Despite the OP always insisting that the social aspect of an MMO is the selling point and the most important thing, I dont believe that thats true - even less so for this game.
The mainpoint of the game is being an FinalFantasyMMO and that means trying to offer both a solo- and an MMO-experience, depending on what the person in question prefers.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

But I get that people have fond memories of 1.x and that the game had both kinds of content - enjoyable, good ideas and boring, content-less downtimes. Just how this game does.

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The problem I have with FFXIV right now is that it feels like any idea used by 1.x (or XI most of the time) is inherently bad. And it's just sad because some of them were very interesting and may have been the reasons why some of us even were attracted by an FF MMO in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Final Fantasy as franchise has a HUGE fanbase - and I would imagine that the bad reviews of 1.0 kept a lot of FF-fans, who liked the solo-games but hestitated about playing an MMO (because, well, they enjoyed solo-games and would have played FFXIV because it was an FF, not an MMO), away.

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The very idea kept lots of them away even before XI launched so I'd say the bad reviews only beat an already wounded horse :p

This thread is nutshell:

Someone posts random things about 1.0/2.0 stuff liking or disliking one or the other

Person A: RAGE RAGE XI/1.0 things to 2.0 and how everything is dying, and they hate this and that about whichever game.
Person B: Another thread about same things.
Person C: Nani?! whats this.
Person D: More fuel to the fire.
Person A: More Rage and including games that aren't 1.0 or 2.0.

(XI is not 1.0 or 2.0 and should not even be in the discussion in first place. 1.0 is dead and gone. 2.0 is what 14 is now and its doing what it is. XI and XIV were made in different gaming times so stop comparing both. XI is still running just fine if you want to play it. If you want to play 14 then do so. 1.0 and 2.0 had their differences.)

Never understood why some people think XI and 1.0 or 2.0 are anything alike when they are both FF games. They were made in different times. Some people like one or the other or both or nether. Just cause you hate A B or C doesn't make it any less to someone else. Also no one cares if you think game A B or C kept SE afloat.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The problem I have with FFXIV right now is that it feels like any idea used by 1.x (or XI most of the time) is inherently bad. And it's just sad because some of them were very interesting and may have been the reasons why some of us even were attracted by an FF MMO in the first place.

The very idea kept lots of them away even before XI launched so I'd say the bad reviews only beat an already wounded horse :p

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The problem I have with FFXIV right now is that it feels like any idea used by 1.x (or XI most of the time) is inherently bad. And it's just sad because some of them were very interesting and may have been the reasons why some of us even were attracted by an FF MMO in the first place.

The very idea kept lots of them away even before XI launched so I'd say the bad reviews only beat an already wounded horse :p

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There are two types of gamers.

The Rules gamer and the Role gamer.
The rules gamers want jobs and no classes, without jobs all of their characters blend into a generic adventurer class who acts as a sort of everyman. Without racial modifiers, choosing a race becomes a cosmetic choice with no lasting impact. Without strict faction memberships, guild quests become senseless and arbitrary. They love the strict combat script of this game that role gamers call jump rope.

The role gamers dislike a game having too many arbitrary rules, they feel hemmed in. If they can't choose a role they find desirable, the game is not worth their salt. Roles should be defined by decisions not rules.

On one hand, the rule gamer is right:
If you don't have rules and statistics, if you don't have attributes, classes, racial modifiers, and skill requirements, your role is undefined. That isn't role-playing, that's pretending the way kids pretend.
There's no hard limit to push up against, no consequences for your decisions, no meaning to any of your actions.

On the other hand, the role gamer is also right:
If the rules prevent you from playing a desirable role, what's the point of playing?
If there are too many arbitrary rules restricting your freedom of choice you're not really playing a role, you're just following a script. It might be a good action game, or a good strategy game, but it's not really a role-playing game if you can't make basic decisions about things like your character's skill development, what kind of armor they wear, or whether or not Derplander the WOL can reject his destiny and live in the cities as a drunk pimp with a Lalafell girlfriend and a gambling addiction.

1.0 was mostly role and little rule, now we swung over to the other side. All rule and little role. A great game has to have a balance between role and rule.

Guildleves remains as a repetitive sidequest and material gatherer option, in the most boring way associated with fetch quest rpgs, only they removed the long walk to return quest giver. It has basically been untouched since the beginning of 1.0 for the most part.

It has/had the potential to be a fast easy way to jump in and out of different styles of content solo or in a pre made group.
https://guildleveideas.webs.com/

My issue with fates, GW2 dynamic events, ESO anvils is immersion. Immersion is a suspension of your senses or beliefs.

So you can have immersion whether you have convenience or not, but that requires developers to think about what their mechanics mean. Which unfortunately for MMO’s tends to rarely happen.

There is too much “weird MMO crap” going on for me to get truly immersed the way I would with a single-player RPG.

By “weird MMO crap” I mean all the stuff MMOs seem to need to have to be MMOs.
Things like enemies that simply stand around all day in the same spot, never moving, simply waiting for someone to come and kill them.
And ones that respawn faster than their predecessor’s corpses de-spawn.
People standing around waiting to be the hero who saves the village by slaying the monster, only they can’t because someone else is slaying it right now (but don’t worry, there will be another monster along in a minute, and the village will need saving again).
Bar patrons who bounce up and down on the table for hours while waiting for this mysterious “group finder” thing to “pop” and yelling at the other patrons to queue.

I mention the immersion thing because that is something XIV Hamlet and FFXI beseiged got right. If it happens constantly and very conveniently, it is immersion sapping and loses it's flair and oomph. The wildlife and enemy AI from 1.0 was amazing and immersive. They had reasons to exists beyond being your experience points or a means to an end on a quest or material farm. Sure, some of their tendencies were weird and annoying, but it made the world feel more like a real place.

Fast travel, I love it and don't want to see it go. But it's whole point was to not force a player to waste time seeing the same static environment they have been through a thousand times. Maybe if the environment was not static, I wouldn't mind a temporary or out of the blue reason for it to be limited for a time being? Maybe the aether gets plugged due to an ominous storm, maybe the fog gets so dense it renders my mini-map useless for a bit, maybe the sun and moon get so eclipse I can barely see two feet in front of my face, or maybe at night a new race of vampires and evil beast come out to feast on my rotting corpse? If it is static, do not touch my convenience with a ten foot pole, thank you. Idk, perhaps there is random treasure chest that spawn rarely with a mini game to unlock it? What if once an eorzean month or year, a crater opens in the Sagolli desert and some ancient ruins reveal a lost civilization?

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Originally Posted by Alestorm

The thing about WoW is very few will admit the game was riddled with bugs and issues, and the community was what made it great. A community that will never come back, I doubt the classic servers will last all that long. MMO's that never get content may as well be dead.

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I played Vanilla WoW and I don't share the "it was so much better back then" sentiment.

Some things were better but the game as a whole was not. Even back then, before I was very familiar with mmos, I felt some things were missing or not done correctly.

I'll be shocked if the Classic servers stand the test of time. Vanilla severely lacked content. It was literally get to max lvl, maybe do some pvp, and maybe raid. I really wonder what players are going to do when they have exhausted all the vanilla content. Will they demand the servers be updated with the expansion released after vanilla?

I also wonder how they're going to deal without having QoL that we take for granted now. There was no transmog (glam) until several expansions after vanilla. Your pets and mounts took up inventory space so you could only have a handful at most. Hunters lost a bag slot due to needing to use a quiver, and they had to buy ammo daily. You could only have one class specialisation active at a time, resetting the points cost a lot of gold. There were very few teleports in the game so unless you were a mage, getting around could take up a lot of time. There was no duty finder tool, so getting a group for a dungeon could take over an hour, and getting to the dungeon could be an extra 20 minutes. I could go on for ages like this.

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Originally Posted by Enla

Oh definitely. It's a gimmick and one that has no staying power. However at least with WoW they had the unofficial, private vanilla server and the outrage generated by it's closing to propel them into making it a reality.

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The thing with private servers is they're often not a true incarnation of the classic game. They frequently add things like xp buffs, different class balance to the original game, or add the missing QoL like I mentioned above. People who played on the private servers won't be playing the same game as Blizzard's official classic version.

And yea it is a gimmick.

I think a better topic would be to discuss how 2.X design was better than 3.X and 4.X design. Because I played a few <50 dungeons while leveling my war these last few days and it struck me that

1) some <50 dungeons are actually more interesting and challenging than most >50 dungeons, and were more than just a few trashs mobs in a corridor then the streamlined boss design we have now,
2) tanks actually have to handle tanks mechanics (such as grabbing adds quickly, moving the boss around depending on mechanics, knowing which trash pack to pull) and aren't just subpar DPS who cast mitigation cooldowns to handle generic tank busters.

I mean, I hadn't done dungeons like dzemael darkhold in a while, and the shift in design is really noticeable. One may only wonder why was the game's design so streamlined after 3.0.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

I think a better topic would be to discuss how 2.X design was better than 3.X and 4.X design. Because I played a few <50 dungeons while leveling my war these last few days and it struck me that

1) some <50 dungeons are actually more interesting and challenging than most >50 dungeons, and were more than just a few trashs mobs in a corridor then the streamlined boss design we have now,
2) tanks actually have to handle tanks mechanics (such as grabbing adds quickly, moving the boss around depending on mechanics, knowing which trash pack to pull) and aren't just subpar DPS who cast mitigation cooldowns to handle generic tank busters.

I mean, I hadn't done dungeons like dzemael darkhold in a while, and the shift in design is really noticeable. One may only wonder why was the game's design so streamlined after 3.0.

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darkhold was a 1.x dungeon, as were aurum vale, cutters cry, and thousand maws of totorak.

they still have some of the old style to them. also, no one really ventures into the side rooms. hell, ive had people tell me they never open the first room of totorak to get the photocell.

if no one goes there, why spend the resources on it?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

darkhold was a 1.x dungeon, as were aurum vale, cutters cry, and thousand maws of totorak.

they still have some of the old style to them. also, no one really ventures into the side rooms. hell, ive had people tell me they never open the first room of totorak to get the photocell.

if no one goes there, why spend the resources on it?

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Having completed the old version of these dungeons, I can tell you they are nothing like their older iteration (aside from arts). Also, it isn't a simple matter of linearity or having "side rooms", it is the gameplay that is totally different. As an example, in post 3.0 dungeons, when did you have as a tank to move a statue to a glowing spot in order to kill it ? (that's just an example, I m not saying it should be in any dungeons). Since when did you have to make a dungeon boss kill its adds with one of his aoe, like in this level 50 dungeon with edda ? This sort of design simply cannot be found after 3.0

What I mentioned about the dungeons (the lost city of karn or the amdapor keep were designed the same way) could also be applied to the coil of bahamut, that was much more problem solving oriented than the content we had since 3.0.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

The thing with private servers is they're often not a true incarnation of the classic game. They frequently add things like xp buffs, different class balance to the original game, or add the missing QoL like I mentioned above. People who played on the private servers won't be playing the same game as Blizzard's official classic version.

And yea it is a gimmick.

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Not even remotely disagreeing. Even with all those things in place however, to Blizzard all that matters is that a good number of people were using the private vanilla server. Which showed interest in potentially making their own, sans the actual reasons why people preferred the private server in the first place. It makes sense for a company to try and cash in on that while they can, even as they misunderstand why people liked it in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

One may only wonder why was the game's design so streamlined after 3.0.

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Yes, I like the lvl 40 dungeons too, especially as tank.

They streamlined the dungeons not after 3.0, they started to streamline them at 2.2. The reason is Pharos Sirius, wich was added in 2.1. This dungeon had punishing mechanics, trash wich would wipe you when you pulled them together, damage stops, proper stuns were important and there were dps and heal checks. It was actually a lot of fun!

However, whenever this dungeon popped in the roulette people left imediately. Others who were late to the party didn't even unlocked the dungeon, so they would never get in their roulette.

After that they changed the roulette, so that you have to unlock ALL dungeons to be able to queue for it, and they also nerfed not only Pharos Sirius, but other level 50 dungeons as well, and they started to streamline the dungeon design more and more.

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Originally Posted by Enla

Not even remotely disagreeing. Even with all those things in place however, to Blizzard all that matters is that a good number of people were using the private vanilla server. Which showed interest in potentially making their own, sans the actual reasons why people preferred the private server in the first place. It makes sense for a company to try and cash in on that while they can, even as they misunderstand why people liked it in the first place.

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Oh yea I completely agree, I'm just saying that Blizzard's version of classic servers is going to be different to those unofficial ones. They're not going to put in all the extra goodies you usually find on private servers. Some players are going to be disappointed when they find this out. I look forward to seeing people getting a harsh reality check on what playing classic truly means. Assuming Blizzard are faithful to it, of course.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Also, it isn't a simple matter of linearity or having "side rooms", it is the gameplay that is totally different.

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My guess is that this is a consequence of "plz nerf AV its too hard", "plz nerf AK it's too hard", "plz nerf Sirius it's too hard", "plz nerf Chrysalis, it's too hard", "plz nerf Steps of Faith, it's too hard". By nerfing again and again instead of pushing people to get better, you come to a point where you don't have much room for interesting design. To be fair though, they managed to keep several trials really interesting, if not better than those of ARR.

And on top of that, we also need to consider that 2.x was new. At that time, every mechanic was a novelty, every boss was a novelty, etc...but going through HW and SB, you see some mechanics used more and more, you see bosses using the same kind of 3D model with the same attacks even if the texture are "new".

I've said that quite some time ago...I don't think the formula of XIV is bad per se, but any formula can become less engaging after several years. But, at fanfest, Yoshi-P said that this formula was mandatory if they want to keep the same pace for updates, and they can only make a few new content apart from that.

2.0 is better in every way. Not even a argument really. 1.0 was a mess and if 2.0 had been 1.0 the game would have been better off since the mistake wouldn't have happened.

2.0+ story is also fine. Its standard for the PC in many MMOs to be a renowned hero. deal with it or play a game with a different story?

Aren't those screens from The Fall And Rise off Final Fantasy XIV which was less of a "1.0 good, 2.0 bad" and more of a what the game was like before being shut down because it was the worst thing Square churned out and almost put a black mark on an otherwise widely successful franchise?

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Originally Posted by Vidu

...and please, please stop pretending and whining that there isnt any community. I'm sorry, but thats just not true - if you fail to make friends, thats on you - not the game. Even an MMO is first and foremost designed to be a game - not a replacement for a social life or network that you have to build yourself.

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This is a recurring theme I see in basically ANY "The old version of this MMO was better" opinions.


People are more social when they're new. But more importantly, People are more social when they know OTHERS are ALSO new. A large part of social anxiety, even light amounts, is the fear of doing or saying something that makes it obvious you're less experienced or knowledgeable than the 'others'.

Beyond that, all 'communities' only give out as much as you give into them. The kind of people that express these opinions on WoW don't play with an active guild, or don't have any friends that play any more, and then say they'll be super socially active when Classic is released. Like, they're somehow completely unaware that their perception of a community is entirely a result of how involved with the community they actually are. It's a case of someone living next to a local park, but never even opening their windows when there's inevitable social events going on outside. If you don't "want" do socialize, you simply won't and you'll actively be avoiding socialization.

I've gotten to get that old MMO RPG feeling quite thoroughly when I was trying to raid savage on a decent pace the past couple of years. And then, miraculously, when I stopped socializing during my breaks. I suddenly couldn't recognize many other players or what daily events where happening on the server. The community was certainly still there, I just stopped trying to take part in it.

I've been thinking... why doesn't OP just move to one of the more English speaking servers? Like Tonberry and (I think) Masamune? Assuming they don't speak Japanese, of course.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I've been thinking... why doesn't OP just move to one of the more English speaking servers? Like Tonberry and (I think) Masamune? Assuming they don't speak Japanese, of course.

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I still belive its just an account to troll on
Since this is there alt and are afraid there main will be banned for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

2.0 is better in every way. Not even a argument really.

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There are these little things called opinions, you know ?

And my opinion is that the level/rank system was better, because you had real benefit to level multiple jobs but also choices in how you allocate your stat points. I think the Stamina system was better than the auto-attack+GCD because you had to manage your pacing, but you'd still have the opportunity to burn all your stamina bar faster during a short window, and letting it fill in if you can't target something. I think the job/class system was better because staying as a class was a strategic choice for more versatility. I think mages having combos was better because it made some spells behave differentlty. I think item bonuses were better when you had some items increasing a specific skill and not simply focusing on raw dps. I think elemental resistances were better especially since you could tweak several crafted items so that you could add an elemental resistance of your choice. I think dungeons rewards were better when loot was actually meaningful and you had several objectives to increase the number of chest at the end (Well, except the speedrun part). I think the overworld monsters were better when you had some NM that dropped unique items useful for progression but also some really high monsters so that unlocking all aetherytes was actually a real feat. I think beastmen strongholds werer better when they had treasure chests that give really powerful items and were actually challenging.

The game as a whole was worse, but lots of ideas were far more interesting and would have deserved a fix instead of simply being cast away.

What's funny is I'm pretty sure lots of people speak ill of how 1.x was an absolute mess even though they never played it. They just were told that...

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Originally Posted by ShanXiv

I know, it won't come back, because many talented staff had left SE
Hironobu Sakaguchi， Nobuo Uematsu，Hiromichi Tanaka, Yasumi Matsuno, Yoko Shimomura
SE is just a mobile game company now, the current staff don't have the MMO developing experience.
just.. oh:(.....is there no hope at all?;)

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If you hate this game so much, why do you even play it? If 1.x is that great as you said, then why does 2.0 exist? What is the reason that the game failed before?

What gets me is how many people did not even play Version 1, yet they have a big opinion on how shit it was. If anybody says there where some good things they are shot down..everybody to their own.
I loved a lot of things from V1 yet there where bad things obviously, problem with FF14 now is that it does have issues and lots of aoe dancing is one of them. Endgame is glamour. I also feel there where lots of really nice things in V1. The opening scenes the music the look the feel everything hands down beats this version. I like the ease of the game now I can be a dirty casual if I want.

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Originally Posted by Luluna

I also feel there where lots of really nice things in V1. The opening scenes the music the look the feel everything hands down beats this version.

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I've heard the music in V1 and it still boggles me how some people find the entire OST of that better than what XIV has now. If anything, 2.0 beats 1.0 in terms of musical compositions alone. V1 had a few good scores here and there, I won't lie about that, but to say the music hands down beats this version? It seems like a stretch blinded by nostalgia to me because you're praising the use of "fake instruments" and synthesizers over something that actually used real ones.

Yes, the 1.0 music did not use real instruments, but they were good at pretending that they did.

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Originally Posted by Luluna

What gets me is how many people did not even play Version 1, yet they have a big opinion on how shit it was. If anybody says there where some good things they are shot down..everybody to their own.
I loved a lot of things from V1 yet there where bad things obviously, problem with FF14 now is that it does have issues and lots of aoe dancing is one of them. Endgame is glamour. I also feel there where lots of really nice things in V1. The opening scenes the music the look the feel everything hands down beats this version. I like the ease of the game now I can be a dirty casual if I want.

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I mean I didn’t play 1.0, but I did see all of the bad PR about how much financial damage 1.0 was doing for Squre Enix, I’m sure there are people who loved and prefer 1.0 over ARR but they are a very small amount of people,not enough to keep that version going. An objectively good MMO wouldn’t come close to ruining a company, I don’t have to play 1.0 to known it was bad.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

I've heard the music in V1 and it still boggles me how some people find the entire OST of that better than what XIV has now. If anything, 2.0 beats 1.0 in terms of musical compositions alone. V1 had a few good scores here and there, I won't lie about that, but to say the music hands down beats this version? It seems like a stretch blinded by nostalgia to me because you're praising the use of "fake instruments" and synthesizers over something that actually used real ones.

Yes, the 1.0 music did not use real instruments, but they were good at pretending that they did.

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This is entirely based on opinion. 1.x (IMHO) sounded far more original than ARR, which for the most part, sounded like it pulled from so many other popular compositions (Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, etc.). Like so many other aspects of the game - original races aside - the music of 1.0 felt like it was trying to be different and have its own character, while still feeling very Final Fantasy. HW music (again, IMHO) was a vast improvement over ARR, but even it sounded like it pulled liberally from other sources (Secret of Mana, Kingdom Hearts, etc.). Unfortunately, SB music seems to be the worst of the bunch, with the main theme being greatly overused with little variance.