What exactly IS a White Mage?

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Originally Posted by Rosa_Frandlia

I had a situation in the Burn where I was glad I was whm recently. The tank pulled the usual first 2 sets of mobs, didn't use any CD's and dropped from 70k to less than 10k almost instantly. With the amount of damage he was taking, benediction was a no brainier and then pop Divine Bension after that. The no cast time double weave likely saved a wipe as even getting Lustraste/excog/Aldo would have likely had the tank down with no CD's up.

Maybe that's whm's niche, making up for bad tanks that don't use CD's. Of course for ones that can't hold aggro we all know what happens to WHM, but this one could hold aggro, When I had the same as a sch, party wiped although tank said "my bad".

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So you’re saying that WHM is a healer for bad Tanks...that’s not necessarily their niche; that’s just someone refusing to use Defensive CDs and forcing the healer to use their oGCDs for it.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

So you’re saying that WHM is a healer for bad Tanks...that’s not necessarily their niche; that’s just someone refusing to use Defensive CDs and forcing the healer to use their oGCDs for it.

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I mean if you want to talk healer for bad tanks, you can combine synastry with largesse for 1144 potency per benefic 2 cast, or pop dissipation and drop 6 lustrates on him. WHM isn't exactly special here.

But yeah that notion was flawed from the start.

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Originally Posted by Rosa_Frandlia

I had a situation in the Burn where I was glad I was whm recently. The tank pulled the usual first 2 sets of mobs, didn't use any CD's and dropped from 70k to less than 10k almost instantly. With the amount of damage he was taking, benediction was a no brainier and then pop Divine Bension after that. The no cast time double weave likely saved a wipe as even getting Lustraste/excog/Aldo would have likely had the tank down with no CD's up.

Maybe that's whm's niche, making up for bad tanks that don't use CD's. Of course for ones that can't hold aggro we all know what happens to WHM, but this one could hold aggro, When I had the same as a sch, party wiped although tank said "my bad".

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No offense, but you may simply be a more experienced White Mage. Let's look at the tools of Scholar and Astro and see how they can respond to this same scenario.

Astro

Lightspeed + Essential Dignity + Largesse offers an instant 45,000 heal at i377, plus additional instant cast Benefic IIs at half the MP cost. I still have Collective Unconscious, Snastry and two options of extending all of these effects in Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition

Scholar

Excog + Emergency Tactics Adlo will cover the initial damage burst, allowing you to potentially Swift another Aldo for the shield. Blow a Lustrate and immediately use Aetherpact then Dissipation once it wears off. Just the first portion of that covers approximately 50,000 HP

The only difference in these scenarios compared to White Mage is the other healers need to work a little harder and be more mindful of their kit. Regardless, if I'd be more inclined to tell the tank to use CDs or replace him with someone who does. A job's balance shouldn't be determined by correcting someone else playing theirs poorly.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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The moment you're relying on GCD healing, you already "lost". That is why WHM excels in dungeons and sucks in raids. Their dungeon kit makes them use the least amount of GCD healing as possible thanks to Holy's stuns and their kit makes them GCD to aoe heal on raids to properly use Cure 3 and Plenary.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

The moment you're relying on GCD healing, you already "lost". That is why WHM excels in dungeons and sucks in raids. Their dungeon kit makes them use the least amount of GCD healing as possible thanks to Holy's stuns and their kit makes them GCD to aoe heal on raids to properly use Cure 3 and Plenary.

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The current discussion is about a tank that isn't using its cooldowns. All healers "lose" in such a scenario. WHM being able to delay switching to GCD heals for a femtosecond isn't a particularly stellar selling point.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Is it potential overheal that's adding to the aggro from WHM? Or is it simply just too high multipliers causing a giant aggro spike?

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I didn't quite see anyone answer this, only that they lack any sort of enmity reduction outside of Lucid Dream.

1 point of healing generates 1.5 enmity, moves that generate enmity (explicitly state they increase enmity) generate x3 enmity per damage, AoE heals generate 1.8 enmity per point healed, overhealing generates 2 enmity per point overhealed. However, take this information with a grain of salt as it's old and unsure how correct it is (given how they listed how provoke works correctly during a time when it was largely not understood makes me think there is some creditability in there). Pretty sure this was before tanks had their enmity increased sometime and I don't think it accounts for tank stances' multipliers. If anyone has updated information for this, please post it ('cause I'd certainly like to have it D: ).

Unsure how other WHMs use their CDs, but usually Lucid is the first thing I use, popping when my MP bar is between 80-85% full. Afterwards, pretty much pop it whenever it comes back up. I can't say I've really encountered problems with aggro management on my part, especially if shirking is happening (or a ninja is present).

AST's stances reduce enmity gained by .75 (which compounded with their Luminiferous Aether and some other combination of things, you could reduce enmity so much that you actually cause the monster to never drop aggro, even when provoke is used. Keep in mind, this only happened if you pulled with negative enmity already).

Right now, I'd change lilies to proc off of our DoTs (in a manner similar to BRDs and their DoTs critting for certain attacks) and when 3 lilies are gained, party members within x distance of the WHM gain a holy attribute/blessing/augment (similar to confession) that raises their DPS (either a flat gain like balance, crit, faster attack speed) that lasts for a certain amount of time. As for encouraging us to DPS more, it is really not that hard to throw Aero II up in the very least - that is part of why I suggested DoTs and not just damage spells. It can even be from actually casting/applying the DoT and not triggered off of tick damage itself (but I'd still suggest it only applying to Aero II because of how easy it is to apply that alone if need be).

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

-Snip Regarding Enmity-

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There's some incorrect info here regarding enmity so here are a few corrections.

Short and skinny of healing enmity is that each point of healing generates 0.5 enmity regardless of the heal is effective or not (AKA, healing and overhealing generate the same amount of enmity). This is modified by passives such as the enmity reduction from sects which was correctly listed as 0.75. For reference, players can refer to Reddit Enmity Wiki Page.

Regarding AST in the 3.X era, when the introduced the passive enmity reduction to sects, it was possible for AST's to generate negative enmity with a combination of Sect Bonus, Luminious Aether (which reduced enmity generation while the buff was active), and Ninja's Smokescreen. This then caused the AST's enmity to negatively overflow if all of this was done at the beginning of the fight (enmity value goes below 0) and cause all sorts of whacky stuff.

What makes WHM's aggro problems the most pronounced of the three healers is the fact that is has no passive enmity bonuses in their kit.

AST has the -25% enmity they get for just have a sect on. Additionally; the strongest heal they have, Earthly Star, generates no healing enmity whatsoever. Synastry's healing bonus also generates no enmity, based on the Reddit enmity page.

SCH has no passive bonuses to enmity generation but their healing enmity is split between their pet and themselves, thus giving them a pseudo enmity passive.

WHM has none of these benefits and can only rely on hate dumps from Lucid Dreaming - a CD that all healers have access too. It would be nice to see some assistance for this in future.

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

The current discussion is about a tank that isn't using its cooldowns. All healers "lose" in such a scenario. WHM being able to delay switching to GCD heals for a femtosecond isn't a particularly stellar selling point.

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Yeah, I'm complementing that discussion by saying WHM is the healer that will use the least resources to heal a tank like that.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

WHM has none of these benefits and can only rely on hate dumps from Lucid Dreaming - a CD that all healers have access too. It would be nice to see some assistance for this in future.

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I agree. I just hope the assistance doesn't come in the form of a completely new skill for them in 5.0, taking up a precious skill slot for the expansion.
Enmity is an old problem that should be addressed separately from the new skills we all get in the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I agree. I just hope the assistance doesn't come in the form of a completely new skill for them in 5.0, taking up a precious skill slot for the expansion.
Enmity is an old problem that should be addressed separately from the new skills we all get in the expansion.

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I agree.

Though on the topic of new expansion skills, I would kill to have a second Swiftcast >>; WHMing Omega during Panto2 irritates me so much ATM and I'd love just a second Swift to get through that nonsense with something other than spamming Aero.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

There's some incorrect info here regarding enmity so here are a few corrections.

~snip~.

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Thanks for the clarifications~

To me Thin Air should get that aggro reduction ability on top of its current 0MP effect. Whether that's Diversion or simply not generating aggro at all while its up I'm not as sure on. Given the above issues mentioned with AST's sects I'm inclined to go with the latter not the former. Just completely ignore the aggro step while Thin Air is up so Smokescreen doesn't affect it at all.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

To me Thin Air should get that aggro reduction ability on top of its current 0MP effect. Whether that's Diversion or simply not generating aggro at all while its up I'm not as sure on. Given the above issues mentioned with AST's sects I'm inclined to go with the latter not the former. Just completely ignore the aggro step while Thin Air is up so Smokescreen doesn't affect it at all.

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I don't think the enmity values can negatively overflow anymore so either solution would work in my mind.

The Reddit Wiki pages mentions that the combination of Smokescreen + Diversion cannot reduce enmity generation to negative values so I imagine it's a hard cap that was implemented on all forms of negative enmity. I guess we'll find out when another combination of abilities allows us to hit negative modifiers because Luminious Aether doesn't exist as an ability anymore.

For reference, this was patched in 4.21.

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The following issues have been addressed.

• An issue wherein the effect of the ninja action Smoke Screen in conjunction with the melee DPS and magic ranged DPS role action Diversion caused players to lose enmity after every action taken.

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We were discussing about healing kits only of AST vs WHM in The Balance this weekend and we were pretty much agreeing and showing how AST is actually easier to pick up and learn how to heal enough and keep the party alive than WHM at this moment.

Assuming the player isn't experienced they would save instants for panic and AST would provide them more of that with shorter CDs and higher AoE potencies overall. Assuming the player is new and they'd probably be spending GCDs healing and the fact every single AST GCD is stronger than WHM's counterpart (Cure 3 being the only stronger from WHM but AST having no counterpart for it). Remember, every AST spell has the sect boost on it! You won't be punished by overhealing while you learn on AST while as WHM you will. The fast cast Malefic will probably make new ASTs feel safer when starting to learn how to squeeze damage in a fight.

It's just weird, WHM was supposed to be the simple "I heal you" job and outside of their really awsome Single Target ogcd kit (Benis, Tetra, Bene), they fail at that kind of job.

I'd still recommend WHM as a first healer experience in FFXIV because that's what "feels" the safest when you are not so used to the game's mechanics, although I agree with Zuzu when you dig in the figures (and that Bene that is never instant when you need it), and once you are familiar with healing, you can try AST and SCH that have a more challenging approach to healing / endgame content if that is what you are looking for.

My point would be that outside of the meta discussion, WHM feels so plain and sometimes just boring to play at some point because of that identity problem.
In endgame dungeons and normal raids : meh, not so interesting (personal opinion there)
High end content : you have to be really good to replace the other two that are so beneficial outside of their DPS and healing.

I don't know if it is possible to fix it before 5.0 ; maybe buffing its DPS/heal to crazy amounts (which would be the most logical/pratical option), or give it more clipping solutions (presence of mind could for example reduce 1 second of casting times, have a shorter cooldown; or adjust Stone to what has been done to Malefic)...
It suffers from being an "in between" job. It is presented as a progress-healer, but AST can do it very well too (even better, with some nice extra), and it is presented as a big DPS healer, but SCH does it better (and even AST since 4.3, but not me cuz I'm bad).
WHM needs to find a spot and keep it (and make it enjoyable to play, when it comes to personal opinions)

I rarely used Plenary Indulgence. Those AOEs already pull others nearly full health and felt confessions.

WHM is a beginner healer, made to cater to the less skilled and carry them through content. It has never and will never be that competitive in content (minus some very demanding fights like ultimate). This is because it's built with a low skill cap in mind and therefore will also have a low rdps output compared to others. Less effort required, less reward given.
SE clearly wants it to be easy to play and have a high sustained HPS. If you want a better healer you play AST or SCH. In the few years I've been playing they have never strayed from this and I wouldn't be surprised if they never did change things for their starter healer kit in this casual first game.

That isn't to say that they never messed up on lilies and/or that the class isn't clunky and doesn't need a bit of a rework. But don't expect WHM to ever be meta outside of a few rare instances (aka: fights designed to not be done by everyone)

Huh, glad to see this thread is out there because it's just as relevant today as it was when the thread was created. While there's the obvious flaw in utility / dps / healing throughput / mana pool (whm mana pool is overstated), those could be fixed and the class would still be lacking an actual identity (ast is the cards, sch is the fairy, whm is....what, exactly?)

I've been tossing around ideas for a while on how to address it and it really does seem that the flaws are twofold: 1) lilies actively hinder proper play of the class and take away from what strengths WHM does have, and 2) lilies themselves don't really seem to FIT with the identity of WHM/conjurer from the lore. From my perspective, it seems that the concept behind lilies can remain but some changes should be made to be more in line with WHM strengths.

What is the suggestion? Take the concept of Army's Paeon from Bard and apply it to WHM

Spell / Ability Changes:
Regen duration extended to 30s
Asylum CD reduced to 60s
Assize is treated as an instant cast oGCD spell with default CD of 60s. This CD is impacted by spell speed including buffs that reduce spell recast time
Fluid Aura now applies 100 damage potency and 10s of magic vulnerability up, CD changed to 60s
Presence of Mind changed to 120s CD
Thin Air gives Diversion

LILIES:
Lilies can now stack up to four times
Critical Healing over Time from Regen and Critical Damage over Time from Aero II and Aero III grants a lily
Secret of the Lily I - Each lily reduces weaponskill cast time and recast time, spell cast time and recast time, and auto-attack delay by 2%
Secret of the Lily II - Each lily reduces mana costs by 4%
Using Assize consumes all Lilies

CONFESSIONS:
Utilization of water elemental spells and abilities gives a stack of confession, stacking up to 3 times
Spells included: Tetra, Benison, Cure, Cure II, Cure III, Fluid Aura
Confession stacks no longer expire
Plenary Indulgence: Consume confession stacks to heal self and allies. Potency is based on number of stacks
1) 150 Potency
2) 300 Potency
3) 500 Potency (50 extra potency for getting full stacks)

The above would roughly increase WHM pDPS by 11% or so (napkin math), and in observing Alphascape such an increase would only really push WHM slightly ahead of the other two in terms of pDPS. This could close that gap while giving WHM a better defined identity.

WHM would still be heavily reliant on their GCD strength and lean on Regen for most of their healing (much more optimal than Cure II and Cure) which takes some away from their dps capability in raid settings, but would enhance their identity as the "brute force healer", especially with the option to stack confessions indefinitely. Lastly, it would give WHM a bit more identity as it pertains to utilization of the elements.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

WHM is a beginner healer, made to cater to the less skilled and carry them through content. It has never and will never be that competitive in content (minus some very demanding fights like ultimate). This is because it's built with a low skill cap in mind and therefore will also have a low rdps output compared to others. Less effort required, less reward given.
SE clearly wants it to be easy to play and have a high sustained HPS. If you want a better healer you play AST or SCH. In the few years I've been playing they have never strayed from this and I wouldn't be surprised if they never did change things for their starter healer kit in this casual first game.

That isn't to say that they never messed up on lilies and/or that the class isn't clunky and doesn't need a bit of a rework. But don't expect WHM to ever be meta outside of a few rare instances (aka: fights designed to not be done by everyone)

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You mean like how the paladin is the easier tank but is still allowed to be competitive? Or how Samurai and Red Mage are easier, yet still provide a lot, or got buffs to push towards balance?

Why is white mage the only "beginner" job in the game that isn't allowed to be balanced? They push for balance across every DPS, they push for balance across every tank. Healers? Nah, just outgrow WHM.

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Originally Posted by Metsonm

Why is white mage the only "beginner" job in the game that isn't allowed to be balanced? They push for balance across every DPS, they push for balance across every tank. Healers? Nah, just outgrow WHM.

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This. A million times this. There is no such thing as WHM being held back to come off as casual friendly. There is not any other job in the entire game balanced this way, so why would they do this strictly to WHM?
Along with Cure III being an excuse for no utility, this is the second excuse I just hate to hear in healer balance discussions. WHM is an outdated healer stuck in the ARR era where healers weren't expected to DPS and Cure III was the only massive heal in the game. They really just need to step back and reassess what they actually want WHM to be, and if there idea can actually work for this game.
It's time to stop pushing the pure healer in the game that barely needs healing.

My biggest gripe with WHM is how it generates tank levels of enmity along how the other 2 is just all around more comfy for the party (pets healing, natural dumps in Sects).
I did some calculations some time ago. This doesn't (hopefully) happen in any realistic situation but let's roll some numbers for a while. Because of +healing traits and natural higher cast strength due to being a caster, a Cure III spam on 8 people will generate so much aggro it's straight up impossible to keep up as (any) tank even if you solely spammed aggro combo in tank stance.
Butcher's Block generates 2100 aggro as a finisher. Whole combo generates average of ~2400 per cast with Defiance counted in.
8-man Cure III generates 2200 aggro (550potency x 8party x 0.5aggro multiplier)
WAR wins by small amount, right? Now go check traits and compare weapon damages and we now have WHM winning by a mile.

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Originally Posted by AleXwern

My biggest gripe with WHM is how it generates tank levels of enmity along how the other 2 is just all around more comfy for the party (pets healing, natural dumps in Sects).

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There's something ironic about WHMs strongest spell, and what devs seemingly deem so powerful it needs no utility, will outright get you killed.

I mean so many people throws out the argument that WHM is the beginner healer, yet Cure III is the hardest of the burst aoes to use. If people aren't stacked, you won't hit them. If you use it too often you'll die. You miss even a single DPS, you might as well just have used Medica because you're going to lose way more time single healing the people you missed.
Compared to SCH and ASTs "press this button to heal everything" abilities.

My reply got too long so I put it here.

Short version:

I get it. At end-game WHM needs to be seen as unique, interesting, or competitive, if not all three. But do most players really do any (significant) end-game? Lots of great ideas are out there, but for me it would be "How do I imagine the class fantasy?" first, then build the uniqueness, interesting features, and competitive edge around that.

If I recall, WHM is supposed to druid-lite blended with a kind of angelic holy priest-type. Draw aether from the land to balance, revive, and protect. Have a care that you don't take more than you need before the land can replenish it. Etc. Don't have to be total slaves to that image, but it's the starting point.

Basically, WHM keeps having its unique stuff made into role actions because that stuff is too good and all healers "need it" because there are players of all skill levels that want to play all healer jobs. Yet AST get cards right away. SCH has a fairy right away. WHM gets lililes at lvl 52. Cards and fairy's are interactive and do cool things, are always useful. Not so for lilies.

So, I would look at adding lilies when you unlock the job (unless I missed it and they added that already). But why lilies? The nature aspect? OK, that's fine. But unless I'm even more forgetful or oblivious than I think I am, I don't recall any cool lily animations. A spectral lily blooming at the WHMs feet (or of other players), ethereal lily blossoms falling from above, etc.

As for what lilies can do, have a Secret of the Lily I, and II, and three III. SotL I is for level 30 when you get the job crystal. The others can stay the same for level of unlocking. That means lilies need to be interesting and useful from level 30 onward in at least some small way. And they need to have an animation effect other players can see.

Again, should it be a better cool-down reduction? For the caster or also allies? A healing buff? For the caster or also allies? A damage buff for the caster? Or also allies? Maybe a buff specifically to tank-only damage or mitigation abilities? Who knows? Again, I'm sure lots of players have a ton of ideas about how lilies could add some fun for WHM. There are pages and pages and pages of "They should have lilies do X" posts.

But when you stretch it back down to those just starting off as WHM rather than just "How can we compare and compete at end-game?", the question "What is a White Mage?" takes on a different dimension.

If they added lily animations and started the gauge at 30, does that change how you would want them to work? Either way, how would this work out if you had your way?

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

If they added lily animations and started the gauge at 30, does that change how you would want them to work? Either way, how would this work out if you had your way?

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If you changed Lily to be accessed at 30, that would have a few issues. Job Gauges are there, but for healers WHM's isn't active until 52. AST's is always active(Lv 30, but is mainly there for keeping track of what cards you have). SCH's isn't active until Lv 70.

If you try and tack on WHM's Lilies early on that will also screw up how earlier dungeons were balanced. In regards to what a WHM is, it's...a bit wonky in my opinion. Once you start into the whole Taint Saga, everything is kinda weird since they divert from what some of their CNJ story shows them to be instead of having some connection to it.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

If you changed Lily to be accessed at 30, that would have a few issues. Job Gauges are there, but for healers WHM's isn't active until 52. AST's is always active(Lv 30, but is mainly there for keeping track of what cards you have). SCH's isn't active until Lv 70.

If you try and tack on WHM's Lilies early on that will also screw up how earlier dungeons were balanced. In regards to what a WHM is, it's...a bit wonky in my opinion. Once you start into the whole Taint Saga, everything is kinda weird since they divert from what some of their CNJ story shows them to be instead of having some connection to it.

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Lilies don't have to be OP or unbalanced at lower levels. And don't SCH have the basic Aetherflow gauge at 30?

Lilies can just be worked into more or less how earlier WHM abilities already function. Doesn't have to be the whole cool-down thing that comes later. In fact, nothing about lilies has to be the same as it is now at any level.

It would make more sense to get some gauge like other healers at 30, and for that gauge to indicate something important for WHMs to track or to have some impact on gameplay. Even if that impact is very minor at levels 30-50. Same for having lily-related animations. They would add more to the feel of the job and could start at 30 as well.

Just having lilies show up decades of levels later for some highly situational passive effects with no visible effect outside of the gauge is confusing at best and lame at worst.

How it works into core of the job, and how it related to making WHMs stand out, is something others can debate.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

If you changed Lily to be accessed at 30, that would have a few issues.

If you try and tack on WHM's Lilies early on that will also screw up how earlier dungeons were balanced.

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Lillies at level 30, in their current iteration, will do the exact same thing as they do at level 70. Nothing.

Another thing, Scholars have a gauge as early as level 6.

Giving WHM a proper 68 trait would be cool.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Lillies at level 30, in their current iteration, will do the exact same thing as they do at level 70. Nothing.

Another thing, Scholars have a gauge as early as level 6.

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Even disregarding what lilies could possibly do at an early level (which is as you said, absolutely nothing), we might as well throw early healer balance out the window because SCH can straight out afk heal dungeons until Stone Vigil.

Whatever lilies could ever possibly achieve at an earlier level, it won't beat that.

I like whm the way it is. It only lack Flood and eartquake

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Originally Posted by Johaandr

I like whm the way it is. It only lack Flood and eartquake

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The way it is, I would prefer WHM getting Flood, Quake, Tornado and Ultima, exchange Cure II for Water II, Fluid Aura for Water, take off some healing skills and add DPS tools and an actual DPS rotation. And exchange healing buffs for DPS buffs.

And exchange the role from Healer to Magic Ranged DPS.

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Originally Posted by Johaandr

I like whm the way it is.

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I like it as-is as well but I only run dungeons and non-ex primals. I gather that a lot of the dissatisfaction involves harder content like savage raids.

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Originally Posted by Johaandr

I like whm the way it is.

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Slowly dying?

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Slowly dying?

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It's been dying since early Heavensward. Let's just put an end to it.
Make it a Disciple of Land, and use elemental magic to make plants grow faster or whatever and take it off the raid-scene.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Slowly dying?

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Originally Posted by Mansion

It's been dying since early Heavensward. Let's just put an end to it.
Make it a Disciple of Land, and use elemental magic to make plants grow faster or whatever and take it off the raid-scene.

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Not everyone is into the raid scene, and WHM is fine for other areas of the game. For those who are into progression raiding I understand where some of the frustration comes from, yet there are those without the time or interest for the peak of end-game content. For those who want a really simple to get-into healer that can manage random people tossed together into a roulette, WHM is great. Its simplicity is not a drawback in such situations, it's a bonus. Players who get bored with that can move on to managing a pet or a deck of cards. The lily system is fertile ground for trying to make up for WHM's blandness as players reach higher levels as well as its shortcomings in prog if SE handles it right in 5.0.

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

Not everyone is into the raid scene, and WHM is fine for other areas of the game. For those who are into progression raiding I understand where some of the frustration comes from, yet there are those without the time or interest for the peak of end-game content. For those who want a really simple to get-into healer that can manage random people tossed together into a roulette, WHM is great. Its simplicity is not a drawback in such situations, it's a bonus. Players who get bored with that can move on to managing a pet or a deck of cards. The lily system is fertile ground for trying to make up for WHM's blandness as players reach higher levels as well as its shortcomings in prog if SE handles it right in 5.0.

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People who do not do raid tier content are generally not affected by balance changes either way, so "It only hurts raiders, nobody cares" doesn't seem like an especially strong argument.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

People who do not do raid tier content are generally not affected by balance changes either way, so "It only hurts raiders, nobody cares" doesn't seem like an especially strong argument.

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Please indicate where I made such an argument.

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

Please indicate where I made such an argument.

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

Not everyone is into the raid scene, and WHM is fine for other areas of the game.

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10character

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

10character

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LOL... :D :D

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

LOL... :D :D

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You'll have to forgive me if that wasn't the intent of your post, but that is the argument I gleaned from it, and it's not a new argument that's been presented on the forums.

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

Not everyone is into the raid scene, and WHM is fine for other areas of the game. [...]For those who want a really simple to get-into healer that can manage random people tossed together into a roulette, WHM is great.

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I was only joking, but your message brings another topic in actually.
Basically, White Mage is the first healer in the game (the only one that starts at level 1). Its design is straightforward. This button heals one guy, this button heals several people, this button throws a stone at a foe. We get it.
So yes, it is a good job to learn healing, it is a good job to do roulettes with, it does not require a mastering of the game's overall gameplay and system to keep your party alive (I'm exagerating on this one but you get my point, SCH needs a bit more optimization by design).
By this logic, every job is more or less fine. Some are more complicated than others, but they all make sense in a ground level (which is normal mode / dungeons etc.) comparison.

But

Some of the "easier" jobs also do a great job outside of that ground level. RDM is arguably the easiest caster, if not the easiest DPS. But it has a strong identity, a simple but fun dual rotation between casting and rapier poking, high numbers, support tools.
PLD is in my opinion the "easiest" tank, in the way that you see which tools build agro, which tools hit harder, and which tools allow you to survive great damage. But in the raid scene, it does extraordinarily well with another tank. It gives room for optimizing DPS output. I see people coming with the DRK argument so I'm telling in advance I don't play tank that much, and not at all in Savage content so I won't go further on that topic. My point is that each tanking job is enjoyable in casual content and high end raid.
All these jobs have a nice progression through their own leveling (even if it is clunky for some of them, namely MCH).

But WHM has nothing to offer at its lvl 70 peak, compared to ALL other jobs (and not tjust the lillies). It remains simply "push here to heal and push here to DPS if you feel like it". I think the argument actually starts here, because WHM does not get anything significantly interesting the higher it goes in level, and in endgame -while still enjoyable, it's up to everyone's taste- it feels really poor compared to the other healers, and to other jobs in general. It's not even about clipping, weaving options and potencies; it's the overall job design. And yet it is the most popular healer outside of Extreme / Savage.
I understand the devs' position, because you can assume WHM is ok based on the figures of how many people play it anyway, outside of the raiding arena. It's still unfair that the job is awkward in extreme/savage content because they won't touch it for some reason.