Thank you for increased difficulty

This wouldn't be an issue if SE just took a page from WoWs book and offered tiered difficulty. You can have story mode (easy mode for story) and a harder mode for people who want more of a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Which I can agree and understand with towards some degree, but what do you do when you've had to explain to the same person five times in a row not to stand somewhere....and they end up standing there every time. At some point, something has to give because no one is having fun when the same person or more is being detrimental towards the rest of the players because of the gap in skill levels.

I can't tell you how many Tsukuyomi EX runs I've been in that we're to start off as fun for me and everyone, but ended up painful because people who claimed to be good couldn't even do basic things.

I want to relax and have fun too and not have my effort go to waste either, :<

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I'm not talking about EX since EX isn't part of the MSQ. They can make EX and Savage as difficult as they want to satisfy the players who want that challenge, and I encourage them to keep doing it. There needs to be something that encourages the players who like to push their limits to keep doing so.

I'm talking about the content that's part of the MSQ. The MSQ gates all new content to the game if only by not allowing you access to the new zones where the new content is located without advancing far enough in the MSQ. You can't cut off a significant portion of the player base by creating mandatory content outside of the difficulty they can handle and retain their interest in the game.

WoW learned that in Cataclysm when the player base hit level cap at the start of the expansion then there was nothing for the average player to do because outside of a handful of dailies, they had turned up the difficulty dial on end game content from 5 to 10 and the majority of their player base had no interest in it. Within a few weeks of launch, they scrambled to seriously nerf Heroic dungeons and a few months later followed suit with Normal T11 raids (I think they had also made some adjustments to Heroic T11 at the same time though not nearly as drastic).

Wildstar learned that by also restricting end game content to hardcore players who wanted extreme difficulty from the start. If they thought their player base would rise to the challenge and learn to get better, they were sadly mistaken. People just quit and never looked back.

I don't want to see that happen to FFXIV. They either need to stop gating access to new zones and the more casual content located there via the MSQ or they need to reconsider how difficult they make the MSQ content. Leave the difficult content outside of the MSQ. A lot of players simply want the chance to experience the story and they'll continue to pay to support the game given that opportunity at level reasonable to the difficulty they can/are wiling to handle. Those players then end up funding the more difficult content that you find relaxing even if they aren't doing it themselves because at least they're getting access to other new content that does appeal to them.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

This wouldn't be an issue if SE just took a page from WoWs book and offered tiered difficulty. You can have story mode (easy mode for story) and a harder mode for people who want more of a challenge.

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FFXIV as a whole (outside a few fights) is easy mode. The issue is people are too used to faceroll, so when something new comes out, and suddenly they are not outgearing it, the reaction is "OMG NOT FACEROLL NERF!"

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I'm not talking about EX since EX isn't part of the MSQ. They can make EX and Savage as difficult as they want to satisfy the players who want that challenge, and I encourage them to keep doing it. There needs to be something that encourages the players who like to push their limits to keep doing so.

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I'm not going to reply to every one of your comments, but I felt this needed to be said here:

You can't say "I want to encourage players to do better if they want to push themselves, but let players who don't have a place in the game too." That's a very backward shoot-yourself-into-the-foot standpoint. Letting these players have a say in content makes it harder for new players who want to push themselves either want to push themselves, because they won't see the game as hard at all, or to have the skill to do harder content and making it a mountainous climb just to have the skill to do Alphascape Savage V 1.0 or even Suzaku or Byakko. Making content too easy on the MSQ or the Expert dungeons means people who would be the kind to push themselves will not see the game as challenging or fun. Trust me, if I didn't join back when the Dzaemel Darkhold final boss was difficult or when Titan Normal's landslides were bs, I would never have gone into raiding because I never would have pushed myself to be better and learn how to do the fight proper and never learned the feeling of rising to the challenge.

If you make the content harder, there's no guarantee it will lead to more people going into raiding. Most MMOs have the same problem, where the game proper actually starts at endgame and you need to learn or relearn your class. Usually part of endgame guilds job is to teach them that. I don't think any MMO has this perfect difficulty curve to lead people into raids from the leveling experience.

The problem is savage raids themselves have a lot of issues that make them unappealing, list follows.

* It's 2+ hours a week practicing phases of a fifteen minute fight, one that will wipe everyone if one person makes a serious mistake or enough people make recoverable mistakes.
* There's no side raids or options to help you overcome them if you are stuck. No alternate raids to gear up, no specs you can change to, no way to bring more people in and pay for it by rewards taking longer to get, etc. All you can do is change your main, and even then that's not always possible since alt gear takes time, unless you can afford crafted gear.
* New players are a liability, not an asset. The common thing seems to be you PUG a tier in learning parties, over and over, then try clearing it, and then maybe someone will look at you for a static. You often have to solo the content more or less with randoms, which is not why people raid. If you try to do it with friends, you can, but the skill requirements can often doom you if you all aren't on the same level. Players have made their own vetting mechanisms via log rankings to deal with this.

I mean, there are issues being player skill levels that make savage underpopulated. Part of the reason why we had diadem and eureka is that the devs probably realize savage and ex stuff simply can't appeal to enough players inetrested in long term progression due to difficulty. If you make the game harder, that doesn't really make raiding attractive, it just might make people bow out a bit earlier.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

If you make the content harder, there's no guarantee it will lead to more people going into raiding. Most MMOs have the same problem, where the game proper actually starts at endgame and you need to learn or relearn your class. Usually part of endgame guilds job is to teach them that. I don't think any MMO has this perfect difficulty curve to lead people into raids from the leveling experience.

The problem is savage raids themselves have a lot of issues that make them unappealing, list follows.

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This is content four patches into level 70. There is no "new player" excuse, there is no "learning" excuse. If people can't handle this boss, then they haven't been paying attention. This is not savage.

If people haven't been paying attention this long, then they're inconsiderate to the people they're grouping with. They shouldn't be encouraged to continue with any group activity, even story modes, with such a selfish mindset.

In fact, it's healthier for the community as a whole if they meet a roadblock until they learn to try to carry their own weight and play their class to what the mechanics of this fight expect.

And yes, that means it's healthier for the community as a whole if the (inconsiderate) dragoon that phones it in with autoattack quits.

You talking about suzaku ex? thats not difficulty its glitchy timing on the explosions which makes the fight frustrating and very poor. if it had the same mechanics but people werent getting hit while way off the exploding platform i'd welcome it.

In this patch it feels like they are punishing healers.

I’ve tried Alphascape 1 Savage and it just seems horrible to heal, not only is there massive incoming damage to handle, there’s quite a bit of mechanics as a healer to do (like trying to top up the tanks and myself in Earth phase, plus paying attention to long/lat, plus remembering swiftcast for being pushed back, etc).

Even the normal raids aren’t easy to heal, for example alphascape 2 normal wasn’t a fun experience as a healer, but for some reason I felt like 4 and 3 were easier.

Whereas if I tank or dps everything seems much less stressful.

You know if they got rid of some of the excessive button bloat it would be actually a good idea to make harder content. as is, no human being has the concentration required to do things perfectly under these conditions. if you're a machine good for you.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

This is content four patches into level 70.

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No, No matter how good or bad this playerbase is, the issues with savage in itself will always make it a minority activity. If you make a roadblock, it doesn't change the fact that savage has innate flaws that make it unappealing to a lot of people. If you try and make casual endgame into a mini-savage, you will just succeed in pushing that mode's problems down, not lifting people up. The issue of savage needs a different solution than making everything harder to try and make people git gud and want to do it. That's my point.
It doesn;t mean nerfing it either, but they need to think about how to encourage people to do the mode given the structure it as and the informal structure that has arisen over it.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

No, No matter how good or bad this playerbase is, the issues with savage in itself will always make it a minority activity. If you make a roadblock, it doesn't change the fact that savage has innate flaws that make it unappealing to a lot of people. If you try and make casual endgame into a mini-savage, you will just succeed in pushing that mode's problems down, not lifting people up. The issue of savage needs a different solution than making everything harder to try and make people git gud and want to do it. That's my point.
It doesn;t mean nerfing it either, but they need to think about how to encourage people to do the mode given the structure it as and the informal structure that has arisen over it.

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I'm not referring to savage. I'm referring to the mist dragon, and how it does a magnificent job of showing who is being inconsiderate by not doing their share.
There is no new player excuse. You pull your own weight, or you really do need to hit a roadblock at this boss.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

I agree with mostly everything you've said except Expert roulette being considered as optional content, mostly because there's no other way for casuals to grind and get their weekly tomestones if they want to upgrade their gear without going through Savage means.

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MSQ gives 50 tomestones of gensis
Alliance Raid gives 50
Frontline gives 20
Beast tribe gives 15
Normal raid gives 15
Trial gives 10
Leveling gives 5

All of this without even stepping, into Expert,Mentor or Level 70 roulettes.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

MSQ gives 50 tomestones of gensis
Alliance Raid gives 50
Frontline gives 20
Beast tribe gives 15
Trial gives 10
Normal raid gives 10
Leveling gives 5

All of this without even stepping, into Expert,Mentor or Level 70 roulettes.

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5: laughs
10: pass
15: pass
20: pvp pass

The only thing that is worth my time is Expert and Alliance Raid. Please be real. Who'd do the others? Even normal dungeon run is 10 times more efficient.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

MSQ gives 50 tomestones of gensis
Alliance Raid gives 50
Frontline gives 20
Beast tribe gives 15
Trial gives 10
Normal raid gives 10
Leveling gives 5

All of this without even stepping, into Expert,Mentor or Level 70 roulettes.

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- Hardly anyone wants to run MSQ roulette
- A good majority of people use Alliance Raid to level their characters if they don't have all 70's
- Frontline PvP queues are horrible
- Not everyone gives a hoot about beast tribes (beast tribes would be considered optional)
- You only do Trial if you're just barely ready to cap your tome otherwise it's absolute torture to repeat the same fight over and over again when people wipe.
- Well, considering that Normal Raid also includes Alphascape since that's what I got last night and had people wipe three times to Chaos? Eh, 10 tomes is not worth the frustration sometimes.
- Leveling is barely worth writing home about.

There are other options, but these are so tedious to run on a daily basis when one Expert per day is enough to cap your 450 limit before the week ends and it usually takes less than 20 minutes a run.

Expert is the path of least resistance.

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Originally Posted by Miziliti

5: laughs
10: pass
15: pass
20: pvp pass

The only thing that is worth my time is Expert and Alliance Raid. Please be real. Who'd do the others? Even normal dungeon run is 10 times more efficient.

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Expert is the path of least resistance.

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Sig brought up the point that there are players in Expert, who clearly don't have the skills/knowledge to be there.

The options that I've stated are for those players so that they are not left out when it comes to tomestones. Of course, they are not time efficient but in that case, such players should improve themselves to the point where they are ready for "Expert" and beyond.

As I've stated previously, the difficultly of Expert should be raised to make it a real "Expert" experience. Have something like an advanced Hall of the Novice, which you have to clear solo and is difficult enough. So that the people who are permitted to enter "Expert" are of a certain standard.


Recap:

Increase the barriers to Expert/Extreme Primals/Savage.

Increase the difficulty of Expert/Extreme Primals/Savage to satisfy those who want greater challenge.

Do not unnecessarily increase the difficulty of MSQ content as this turns off people who are just in it for the story/glam/crafting/gathering/socializing/etc.Unless the unlikely day, when SE decides to stop gating the majority of the content behind MSQ occurs...

If people are not performing in basic/MSQ content, after having the mechanics explained to them repeatedly, politely kick them.

I mentioned in another thread that I'm a casual, albeit not lazy player and I have to say: I really found the mechs/hardness in this patch really fun and creative. So, as a casual player, I have to give thanks, too. :) I really enjoyed this patch and was so disappointed when I finished it in like... 2-3 hours (minus the sigma raids).

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

You know if they got rid of some of the excessive button bloat it would be actually a good idea to make harder content. as is, no human being has the concentration required to do things perfectly under these conditions. if you're a machine good for you.

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That is absolute nonsense. It doesn't take a machine to play any of the jobs in the game to even a decent level. Some are certainly easier to grasp than others but claiming no human being can handle that much concentration is ludicrous. You may not be able to, however you aren't everyone else. Frankly, if they just trimmed even more skills in 5.0 without adding new ones, I'd be pretty damn bored.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

You know if they got rid of some of the excessive button bloat it would be actually a good idea to make harder content. as is, no human being has the concentration required to do things perfectly under these conditions. if you're a machine good for you.

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Am I a machine? This is news to me, last I checked I'm a flesh and blood human.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

You know if they got rid of some of the excessive button bloat it would be actually a good idea to make harder content. as is, no human being has the concentration required to do things perfectly under these conditions. if you're a machine good for you.

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I doubt it's the amount of buttons, it's more like people don't have awareness. The hardest mechanics in casual content are the dive bombs or things with no telegraphs because people don't look around or watch the boss' cast bar to react, they just tunnel and then wonder why they died and plz nerf. (Mist Dragon/Hashmal/Construct 7 Dive+Disposal) Same reason in Suz EX. The rune pattern is on the outside just like divebombs. That's just my experience anyway.

I tried Mist Dragon again yesterday, and all I did was look around the outside and found both telegraphs and dodged them fine with the amount of time given. You can't even hit Mist Dragon/Hashmal/Construct 7 during dives so you can't even use that excuse for Mist #2 where people wipe.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

You know if they got rid of some of the excessive button bloat it would be actually a good idea to make harder content. as is, no human being has the concentration required to do things perfectly under these conditions. if you're a machine good for you.

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Some would argue that pressing the same button over and over again to get towards the same end results that three buttons might make you do would make you a machine also regardless.

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Originally Posted by Hamada

Some people praise the vault for having a nice increase difficultly, but I question that when a healer can try MPK a rdm, the healer dies while doing this, and we kill the final boss in the vault with RDM heals. Does that really show difficulty scaling if a healer can goof around and die and still finish the last boss fight?

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You're seeing it now. Not how it was at launch when we were in much lower ilevel of gear and didn't have red mages. It was the same thing with Keeper of the Lake. In the gear available and the classes available at the time it came out, the final Middy fight was hard in general and very hard on healers. But the thing those dungeons have in common with The Burn is the unforgiving nature of the mechanics. The insta-kill stuff seems to be what SE falls back on when they want to implement "challenge".

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

You're seeing it now. Not how it was at launch when we were in much lower ilevel of gear and didn't have red mages. It was the same thing with Keeper of the Lake. In the gear available and the classes available at the time it came out, the final Middy fight was hard in general and very hard on healers. But the thing those dungeons have in common with The Burn is the unforgiving nature of the mechanics. The insta-kill stuff seems to be what SE falls back on when they want to implement "challenge".

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With how overpowered healing is in normal content, that's what they have to do. Sometimes I end up correcting so many mistakes a vuln-stacking DPS makes I wish we'd go back to neverreap's last boss where if they can't stand on the platform I don't have to bother with them again.

I really don’t see the issue with mist dragon... so far I have always one-shot that dungeon... I go as whm and atm I’m only 363. Killed it first with 361. Maybe I’ve been lucky with duty finder players...

Omg yes. That's 130 potency. What is SE thinkingggg

Before this gets any more derailed over mist dragon; a thank you to the devs for putting in better overall fights in general for 4.4. Alphascape, Suzaku, and even the new daily dungeons are going in the right direction in terms of difficulty for the content they're covering.

Short of real life disabilities or youre playing on a toaster (it happens), if youre having extreme trouble in content right now but are trying your best, the question that comes up is "Have you been asking questions and seeking out advise?"

Maybe Im cynical, or maybe my own experiences have colored my view of things, but a lot of people who say "Im doing my best/Im trying my hardest" etc arent. They watched a quick video, or skimmed a guide or two, and then go back to playing the game. They dont ask questions of better players, try to understand the mechanics of the class or game, or sit down and practice and hold themselves to a higher standard. The real honest question to ask yourself is "Am I really trying my hardest?" The game is large, how many people join chat servers that have guides and encourage questions and things like that? How many sit down and really practice their rotations and study the guides and try to understand the content?

And I know a general knee-jerk response something along the lines of "WELL, I PLAY CASUAL! I DONT NEED TO BE AN ELITIST!"

Thats fine. You want to play casual, then go for it. Play the game as you want. I know plenty of people who do. But at the same time, dont complain the game is "To Hard" and that youre "Trying your best" when you really arent. I think thats the part that annoys me the most. A lot of people make excuses for being half assed. They want the 'glory' of being good, but dont want to put the effort in doing so. And going back to my opening point, unless you have a disability or a toaster for a computer, putting in effort and practice WILL make you better.

So really, for everyone whos "Doing their best", ask yourselves in all seriousness if you really are. Have you taken the time to practice your class, read guides to their fullest, ask questions from other players to get a better understanding?If not, and you want to be better, then thats where you start. And if youre ok with where youre at, thats cool too. Just make sure when you tell other people youre doing your best, youre telling them "Im doing my best for the amount of effort I want to invest."

THANK You SE for giving us some dungeons and even a normal raid with some bite to it ;). Thorough Savage raider here, though granted haven't done Ultimates. But still, while EX primals are indeed a nice challenge, others are correct in that there isn't too much mid-core content here save PoTD / HoH upper floors for sure. While that's not a bad thing, it's nice to see some challenging content!

As a legally blind player who has worked with a team to clear Savage; yes, indeed player skill does have a limit where it is harder to improve. But there also needs to be the will to do so. I'm torn because while I do understand a desire for MSQ to be casual, we are level 70 and two expansions in. I don't think everything should be handed to players. If you're thinking this is hard, I'd still put it on par with above WoW Heroic dungeons, maybe a Mythic 0 early on. Gear will make it a little easier as it always does. I shudder to think if we ever got Mist Dragon in a Mythic+ style of content haha.

But there'll always be backlash. If it wasn't MSQ, then people would say make normal raid harder, or alliance raids harder, or (insert thing) until everything becomes easy, and no one wants that. I understand that all the OP wants to do is MSQ so don't get me wrong, I can understand the argument of being unfairly punished. But at what step do we start holding people's hands slightly less and even provide a modicum of challenge? Having some challenge to the MSQ dungeon makes it great to get through and earned.

An interesting look back at when WoW: Warlords of Draenor came out, was that Heroic Dungeons (kind of like our Expert) were capped behind reaching a silver or higher rank in a solo trial challenge of sorts. You'd go to the Proving Ground (kind of like Hall of the Novice) but with mobs you had to interrupt, sometimes have particular kill orders in, dodge mechanics - everything that a real dungeon would have more or less). If you couldn't get silver, you were locked from the content. I don't know if it would work here. But boy, I sure knew people in WoW who literally couldn't do silver to save their lives and had others do it for them. But WoW classes are far more varied and generally broken than what XIV has, period.

Hard to say. Putting a requirement in front of people may just make them quit. The capable players will go through it. But it's that middle-ground that's tricky to get. But agreed, some kind of higher difficulty "Hall of the Expert" or a Primal simulation or something would at least help in assisting players with harder mechanics than in dungeons. Create a reward for doing it too and that is at least one method of incentive. That or some awesome solo-challenges would be great.

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Originally Posted by Hamada

Some people praise the vault for having a nice increase difficultly, but I question that when a healer can try MPK a rdm, the healer dies while doing this, and we kill the final boss in the vault with RDM heals. Does that really show difficulty scaling if a healer can goof around and die and still finish the last boss fight?

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You forget that all HW dungeons were nerfed when Stormblood came out. The Vault is a shadow of its former self now.

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Originally Posted by The-Real-Link

An interesting look back at when WoW: Warlords of Draenor came out, was that Heroic Dungeons (kind of like our Expert) were capped behind reaching a silver or higher rank in a solo trial challenge of sorts. You'd go to the Proving Ground (kind of like Hall of the Novice) but with mobs you had to interrupt, sometimes have particular kill orders in, dodge mechanics - everything that a real dungeon would have more or less). If you couldn't get silver, you were locked from the content. I don't know if it would work here. But boy, I sure knew people in WoW who literally couldn't do silver to save their lives and had others do it for them. But WoW classes are far more varied and generally broken than what XIV has, period.

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It was an interesting experiment. Many claimed their class was unbalanced and it was unfair/impossible on that class and not a true test of player ability. Meanwhile I got the dps Proving Gold as a tank. Silver dps was very basic and you were only locked out from heroic dungeons. Some classes did have it easier than others though and it could have been adjusted a little, but then if you choose a difficult to play class, you should be willing to make the effort to learn to make it moderately effective in group content.

I actually liked the idea, it basically said "you can't step into a harder dungeon unless you're capable of contributing the absolute basic minimum to your group". Which is perfectly fair. What was amazing was the sheer number of players who literally couldn't contribute the basic minimum. So many they had to scrap the idea and continue hoping the skilled players would compensate for them.

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Originally Posted by The-Real-Link

An interesting look back at when WoW: Warlords of Draenor came out, was that Heroic Dungeons (kind of like our Expert) were capped behind reaching a silver or higher rank in a solo trial challenge of sorts. You'd go to the Proving Ground (kind of like Hall of the Novice) but with mobs you had to interrupt, sometimes have particular kill orders in, dodge mechanics - everything that a real dungeon would have more or less). If you couldn't get silver, you were locked from the content. I don't know if it would work here. But boy, I sure knew people in WoW who literally couldn't do silver to save their lives and had others do it for them. But WoW classes are far more varied and generally broken than what XIV has, period.

Hard to say. Putting a requirement in front of people may just make them quit. The capable players will go through it. But it's that middle-ground that's tricky to get. But agreed, some kind of higher difficulty "Hall of the Expert" or a Primal simulation or something would at least help in assisting players with harder mechanics than in dungeons. Create a reward for doing it too and that is at least one method of incentive. That or some awesome solo-challenges would be great.

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I don't think they will do this. They don't even force the novice hall even though it's supposed to be a tutorial. They could use SSS requirements to gate as well. They have a "hands off" approach so the chance they will actually gate anything like this is near 0.

They used to gate things like the raid, you had to clear the earlier stuff (last tier and the ones before it in the series [i.e you had to beat T5 to do T6+]) to get access to the new one, or you would have to clear older EX primals to get access to the newer ones, but they stopped doing it. I'm assuming it's because it split the player base and it made returning a pain since people would have moved on from the old stuff and getting a learning/clear group when a new tier is out was awful.

That spinning monkey throwing bananas stage on gold as a mage was annoying though.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

It was an interesting experiment. Many claimed their class was unbalanced and it was unfair/impossible on that class and not a true test of player ability. Meanwhile I got the dps Proving Gold as a tank. Silver dps was very basic and you were only locked out from heroic dungeons. Some classes did have it easier than others though and it could have been adjusted a little, but then if you choose a difficult to play class, you should be willing to make the effort to learn to make it moderately effective in group content.

I actually liked the idea, it basically said "you can't step into a harder dungeon unless you're capable of contributing the absolute basic minimum to your group". Which is perfectly fair. What was amazing was the sheer number of players who literally couldn't contribute the basic minimum. So many they had to scrap the idea and continue hoping the skilled players would compensate for them.

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SE has teh ability as it is right now to make it tailored to roles pretty easily. A system like how had it would not be to difficult. Healer DPS checks would be lower, of course, but they could have mechanics that require healing (there are boss mechanics in the game that require you to heal them to defeat them). Beyond that, having fight mechanics (dont stand in the pancakes) and other basic factors would go a long way in sorting out players. As an example, DPS who enter the trial would have to meet a certain DPS check (lets say 3k) while avoiding aoe mechanics and needing proper positions. Tanks will have a lower check, but deal with Tank busters and will have to CD properly. Heals will also have a low DPS output but need to have a solid uptime on heals.

And of course, it can be used to explain mechanics and things to players so they understand what theyre supposed to do. Make it a training daily for experience or poetics or something to push newer players into it.

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Originally Posted by The-Real-Link

An interesting look back at when WoW: Warlords of Draenor came out, was that Heroic Dungeons (kind of like our Expert) were capped behind reaching a silver or higher rank in a solo trial challenge of sorts. You'd go to the Proving Ground (kind of like Hall of the Novice) but with mobs you had to interrupt, sometimes have particular kill orders in, dodge mechanics - everything that a real dungeon would have more or less). If you couldn't get silver, you were locked from the content. I don't know if it would work here. But boy, I sure knew people in WoW who literally couldn't do silver to save their lives and had others do it for them. But WoW classes are far more varied and generally broken than what XIV has, period.

Hard to say. Putting a requirement in front of people may just make them quit. The capable players will go through it. But it's that middle-ground that's tricky to get. But agreed, some kind of higher difficulty "Hall of the Expert" or a Primal simulation or something would at least help in assisting players with harder mechanics than in dungeons. Create a reward for doing it too and that is at least one method of incentive. That or some awesome solo-challenges would be great.

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If you have no desire to improve, you've already quit even if you won't admit it to yourself.

So basically, let me be there first to ask those players: can I have your stuff?

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Originally Posted by The-Real-Link

An interesting look back at when WoW: Warlords of Draenor came out, was that Heroic Dungeons (kind of like our Expert) were capped behind reaching a silver or higher rank in a solo trial challenge of sorts. You'd go to the Proving Ground (kind of like Hall of the Novice) but with mobs you had to interrupt, sometimes have particular kill orders in, dodge mechanics - everything that a real dungeon would have more or less). If you couldn't get silver, you were locked from the content. I don't know if it would work here. But boy, I sure knew people in WoW who literally couldn't do silver to save their lives and had others do it for them. But WoW classes are far more varied and generally broken than what XIV has, period.

Hard to say. Putting a requirement in front of people may just make them quit. The capable players will go through it. But it's that middle-ground that's tricky to get. But agreed, some kind of higher difficulty "Hall of the Expert" or a Primal simulation or something would at least help in assisting players with harder mechanics than in dungeons. Create a reward for doing it too and that is at least one method of incentive. That or some awesome solo-challenges would be great.

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I'd be very hard pressed to argue that the WoD PG silver requirement for LFD actually improved anyone's experience. I cleared Endless 30 in MoP as DPS and never had difficulties getting silver, so it wasn't an issue for me personally. I can say though that I still ran with terrible players that were supposed to be kept out by this requirement, but heroics were easy enough from day 1 that it really didn't matter anyway. PG had individual mechanics found in dungeons, but as a whole didn't reflect a dungeon environment at all, making it poorly suited for testing aptitude for dungeon clearing. It then eventually became more difficult than the dungeons it was acting as a gatekeeper for, as it scaled and the dungeons did not. As you mentioned, many people still got around it by having others do it for them, but it definitely left them with a bad taste in their mouth regardless. I think the only people who actually enjoyed that arrangement were the low end elitists who both lacked the skill to actually make up for poor play by their group and tend to enjoy harassing players who don't meet whatever arbitrary standards they impose on them.