Please Reconsider MSQ Changes

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

The story is an important part of the ff14 experience, if you don't have time for a few cutscenes, don't queue a roulette: SE is giving a big bonus of EXP as a bait (or if you prefer "in exchange for your patience").

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If it were just a few cut scenes, it wouldn't be an issue in the first place. The issue is its more like a few dozen cut scenes that last a very long time. Ones that now everyone is forced to watch over and over and over and over and over again. There's other content others may want to do during their play time and strong arming everyone into sitting through nearly an hour of cut scenes isn't very fun cause it becomes a time waster. I know story is a big thing for lots but how many times can you sit through the same cut scenes until they're memorized before you get sick and say "enough...I don't wanna do this anymore".

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Originally Posted by Zephera

New players are going to quit playing because they won't be able to get a queue in a reasonable time you mean.

Also, it's very rare I see any toxicity and I run MSQ roulette once a day. Aside from "hellos" most people are dead silent, newbies and veterans alike. Most veterans, while they do rush, tell the newbie to "relax and enjoy the cutscenes". It's not like the fights are impressive, they're over before they even begin.

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Your anecdotal evidence aside, it's well documented that new players are told to skip cut scenes and "watch them in the inn" during these two dungeons. The devs have acknowledged this. It's why the change was made.

If queue times aren't reasonable, then I wouldn't be surprised to see MSQ and Leveling Roulettes merged.

Once again, only the community has themselves to blame for this.

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The community takes the blame for this change. If players weren't so toxic to new players with "SKIP SKIP SKIP" S-E would not have had to make such a strong change like this.

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Uhh, no. SE takes the blame for the changes SE makes.

Yes, this was a problem, but there were better solutions. If anything this is going to hurt the newbies, and the fact they did not foresee this is pretty much typical/expected of SE by now (but still no less disappointing). The roulette goers will just do other roulettes; they will barely be affected.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

They'll just get harassed to spam through the cutscenes instead most likely. So it'll still be a bad experience most likely. Heck, if you take the time to watch the cutscenes they'll probably vote kick you out to boot.

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good point, i really shouldn't underestimate ppl.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Personally, I am very glad this change was finally made. New players deserve to experience the story the way the developers intended.

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You just don't get it do you. If no one queues for the duty how are the new people going to continue story? They did intend for them to finish story right? Frustration because a duty doesn't pop will turn them away pretty quick. I hope that's not the case but I'm sure we'll find out soon enough.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

On the other hand FFXIV is a MMORPG: another big part of the gaming experience is playing with others.

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You know what isn't 'playing with others'? Watching the equivalent of a short episode worth of cutscenes.

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It may seem a good idea, but I feel alone, and I have less chances to socialize.

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You have literally every other duty and trial and dungeon to do that. The loss of these two dungeons people just power through isn't what's going to make you friends in this game.

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This could become a stepping stone for "completely soloing ffxiv".

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Sure, if you're completely ignoring why these two instances are problematic. You don't get a half an hour's worth of cutscenes between Ifrit stages.

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1.Provide gameplay advice for new adventurers and other players.
2.Be an exemplar for player etiquette.
3.Invite new adventurers to the Novice Network and answer their queries in the chat channel.

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1 and 3 absolutely don't force you to run content. Your best case is #2 because insta-bailing is bad player etiquette but unless you can prove they bailed because of the dungeon and not some other pressing irl matter - and you won't be able to do so, unless they were dumb enough to say so in chat - you're all out of luck.

tl;dr this is the age old debate about Mentors. We don't owe anyone squat about what content we run. If we leave a roulette, we get penalized and that's our just desserts. Anything else is you wanting something SE never intended us to do

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Your anecdotal evidence aside, it's well documented that new players are told to skip cut scenes and "watch them in the inn" during these two dungeons. The devs have acknowledged this. It's why the change was made.

If queue times aren't reasonable, then I wouldn't be surprised to see MSQ and Leveling Roulettes merged.

Once again, only the community has themselves to blame for this.

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And everyone will leave when they get Preatorium

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Originally Posted by Akor

You can cry how much u want u can stand on your head for days, they wont change it (only if the pvp pupolation will decrease so hard than only after that they will might bring back the old stuff like chat etc.). Its time to change game if u like PvP. lol
PVP was dead (for me) since they removed CS anyways.

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Sure, now imagine all the PvPers upset with that change they never wanted or asked for, and have proven has done more harm than good go. Oh hey look, some people don't like the SMN changes, they can go too. Ah, and a lot of BLMs are pretty underwhelmed by their changes; there's other games with mage classes, so let them just go too. Hey, those new guys can't get queues for that MSQ duty with the unskippable cutscenes and can't progress! Well, too bad for them, if they don't like it, they can just go find something else to play.

^ Here you go, SE. Promising new candidate for your dev team.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

If queue times aren't reasonable, then I wouldn't be surprised to see MSQ and Leveling Roulettes merged.

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Funny thing is though, if you get one of those 2, in this case, it would still be faster to eat the 30 min penalty for leaving than to sit through the cutscenes.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Once again, only the community has themselves to blame for this.

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Okay, whatever. Point being the only people this hurts are the newbies. If none can get past this brick wall, the amount of players at endgame will dry up and the game will die. Sounds fantastic now doesn't it.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

I hare read more than a player disappointed from this kind of rushing, not only in Praetorium but in levelling dungeons too.

The story is an important part of the ff14 experience, if you don't have time for a few cutscenes, don't queue a roulette: SE is giving a big bonus of EXP as a bait (or if you prefer "in exchange for your patience").

On the other hand FFXIV is a MMORPG: another big part of the gaming experience is playing with others.

I saw that kind of changes (=soloing the main story) in LOTRO: you receive an "ispiration" buff => high HP regen and huge boost in dps.
It may seem a good idea, but I feel alone, and I have less chances to socialize.

"you are exaggerating, it's only for Praetorium". Why? why not ifrit normal, titan, shiva or Bismark? and after that, why not for sastasha, or GG library?
This could become a stepping stone for "completely soloing ffxiv".

There is already too much solo content, do we need to change a group content?

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The story is important, and making these two dungeons specifically solo enhances that story by removing any way for others players to detract from it.

"A few cut scenes" is putting it very mildly, you will be in the dungeon for 30 minutes+ not including queue time if all cut scenes aren't skipped and you have to wait for other players to finish as well. The extra experience from this will have to match up to the amount of time it will take to queue + actually run it. Chances are math will be done after the release and I have a good feeling even PoTD at 60+ will be faster EXP. But that's just my personal expectations.

Yes, you are exaggerating, other content wouldn't be touched because these two dungeons have very specific problems that no other dungeons/trials do. They have long cutscenes that break up the whole flow of the dungeon itself. No other dungeon or piece of content has this in a grouped setting.

There's already so much solo content, but these two dungeons right here would benefit the most from being made solo. As a mentor you should want what is best for sprouts, and making this dungeon solo would be the best possible solution for the dungeons without removing or editing the cutscenes.

We all get what a mentor is there for, what you're missing here is that you would prefer to have more ways to play mentor rather than have a overall positive change for sprouts. Being against changes because they reduce your capacity to mentor for the benefit of sprouts experience is just as bad as being someone who got the crown just for looks in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

If queue times aren't reasonable, then I wouldn't be surprised to see MSQ and Leveling Roulettes merged.

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And that will be the day that I stop doing Leveling Roulettes also.
I get that new players want to enjoy the CS and that fine, but I don't want to waste an 1-2 hours in one place that I've already done and seen the CS in. As someone else pointed out, I'm fine with new players watching the CS while everyone else runs off and kills the bosses. I'm not going to sit there and yell at them to skip the CS, watch it! Just don't mind that we kill stuff while you do so.

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Originally Posted by Cylla

And that will be the day that I stop doing Leveling Roulettes also.
I get that new players want to enjoy the CS and that fine, but I don't want to waste an 1-2 hours in one place that I've already done and seen the CS in. As someone else pointed out, I'm fine with new players watching the CS while everyone else runs off and kills the bosses. I'm not going to sit there and yell at them to skip the CS, watch it! Just don't mind that we kill stuff while you do so.

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Even if it merged....the numbers required wont make it pop..ever...really....or people ditch and eat the 30 min penalty anyway.

Too many people to quote a reply at, however—

Suggesting that "no one will queue for MSQ" is simply inaccurate (as in, you have no way of proving this statement). At any point after this change, the non-new players queuing will be greater than 0 (it is far more likely than not that this statement holds).

In accordance with the above, putting myself in the shoes of a new player, I would rather wait a longer time for these dungeons, if a shorter time means getting yelled at to skip skip skip. S-E, apparently, agrees.

Refitting the Leveling Roulette to accommodate for 8 player dungeons is very, very simple. It is not this enormous undertaking that has been suggested.

Just going to add I have 3 more roles to level to 70 at the moment on my main and when I start another (just finished dragoon) Main Story won't be on my list of dailies for experience. I suspect I'm not alone in thinking or doing that. Good luck to all the green leafs and I see a ton of them in those duties. Hopefully there are enough of them to get the duty to run.

There's no reason not to skip the dungeon cs and watch them in the inn instead. It doesn't make the dungeons any more exciting if you watched all the cs since all the fights are over quickly nowdays.

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Suggesting that "no one will queue for MSQ" is simply inaccurate (as in, you have no way of proving this statement). At any point after this change, the non-new players queuing will be greater than 0 (it is far more likely than not that this statement holds).

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It will almost unquestionably be less. This isn't hard to discern, just from looking over the backlash that has already been made before the patch is even live.

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In accordance with the above, putting myself in the shoes of a new player, I would rather wait a longer time for these dungeons, if a shorter time means getting yelled at to skip skip skip. S-E, apparently, agrees.

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They're still going to be yelled at to spam through the CS like everyone else and will get vote kicked when they don't.

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Refitting the Leveling Roulette to accommodate for 8 player dungeons is very, very simple. It is not this enormous undertaking that has been suggested.

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This is the only one you're right about, because guildhest roulette has a 8 man hest too.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

In accordance with the above, putting myself in the shoes of a new player, I would rather wait a longer time for these dungeons, if a shorter time means getting yelled at to skip skip skip. S-E, apparently, agrees.

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How long would you be willing to wait? 30 minutes? An hour? 2 hours? A new player running into that is going to quit the game, I sure would have. If story content that blocks progress is next to dead what hope is there for content beyond in the eyes of a new player?

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Originally Posted by Cylla

And that will be the day that I stop doing Leveling Roulettes also.
I get that new players want to enjoy the CS and that fine, but I don't want to waste an 1-2 hours in one place that I've already done and seen the CS in. As someone else pointed out, I'm fine with new players watching the CS while everyone else runs off and kills the bosses. I'm not going to sit there and yell at them to skip the CS, watch it! Just don't mind that we kill stuff while you do so.

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That experience you describe still isn't the experience that developers intended for new players. The dungeon feels empty, hollow, and entirely unimmersive if after watching a cut scene, everything is dead.

all the people saying "you only have yourselves to blame"... that is so far off base, its ridiculous.

First and foremost, the main scenario roulette is only 2 dungeons. It should be way more, considering there are other duties tied to the end of the expacs that could EASILY have been added to them, breaking the monotony of hoping u get CM over Prae. You cannot possibly expect 4 year veterans to watch the cutscenes every time, even with the skip feature (this doesn't mean u can't wait for people to get out of them). THAT is the biggest issue with this roulette, theres not enough in there. Praetorium or Castrum every day for years. No thank you. Even still, I ran it every day because guess what? The exp u get is insane.

Second. People want to get these over with quickly. If you solo queue for it as a new player, you should understand that at this point no one cares if you want to watch the cutscenes. That doesn't mean people should exclude you from participating in the instance, however. The happy-medium is that you watch the cutscenes at the inn. Now, making everyone watch CSs that are 4 years old is going to make no one want to do it, and therefore new players will progress at a much slower rate. That doesn't put the player at fault, it puts SE at fault for punishing EVERYONE, when they could have taken much better approach to alleviating this issue.

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Originally Posted by Zephera

How long would you be willing to wait? 30 minutes? An hour? 2 hours? A new player running into that is going to quit the game, I sure would have. If story content that blocks progress is next to dead what hope is there for content beyond in the eyes of a new player?

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Personally, over an hour wouldn't bug me. Not even two. I'd just read a book while I wait.

Personal opinion aside, if it blocks progress that much, I suspect the new dungeons will go into the Leveling Roulette to solve that problem.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Refitting the Leveling Roulette to accommodate for 8 player dungeons is very, very simple. It is not this enormous undertaking that has been suggested.

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If they will merge it into any other roulette - it'll be the 50/60 roulette which from my experience a lot less people queue for to begin with.

EDIT: lmao totally forgot about the hest roulette, nm all the rest of what was here

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Personally, over an hour wouldn't bug me. Not even two. I'd just read a book while I wait.

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That's you though. I don't think most people would be willing to wait that long.

EDIT: To further support my point, look at how much people complain about dps queues. This will be a similar problem, only much, much worse.

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That experience you describe still isn't the experience that developers intended for new players. The dungeon feels empty, hollow, and entirely unimmersive if after watching a cut scene, everything is dead.

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I bet the developers also didn't intend for people to just bail or kick newbies out of this dungeon either, but that's still going to happen, and if anything they are facilitating it with this change.

Also, bit of a tangent here, but if they really truly wanted to create a truly authentic experience for new players, they would need to slap a item level 50 cap on it so that everything isn't as faceroll.

I, for one, am very excited for all the "my queue took 5 hours and the tank just left!" kind of threads this will bring out. Gotta wonder what kind of reaction SE was thinking from the playerbase when they thought of this "fix"

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Originally Posted by Eli85

That experience you describe still isn't the experience that developers intended for new players. The dungeon feels empty, hollow, and entirely unimmersive if after watching a cut scene, everything is dead.

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Sometimes it's hard to tell what they intended. Was it immersion? Well, why isn't it solo?
Is it epic boss fights? Well why are there so many cut scenes between them, and why do they give you gear that makes the fights pretty much null and void as far as mechanics?
Was it the cut scenes that were suppose to blow your socks off as an ending to ARR? Well again why not make it solo so no one gets held up or a ruined experience?
Was it all of the above? Well that's uh... Good intentions, but borderline impossible to execute in an MMO.

These two dungeons just sort of highlight that at the time, even after saving the game the devs seriously did not understand MMO's as deeply as they should have.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

In accordance with the above, putting myself in the shoes of a new player, I would rather wait a longer time for these dungeons, if a shorter time means getting yelled at to skip skip skip. S-E, apparently, agrees.

R

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Hello fellow famfrit resident.

I disagree. I have done the MSQ roulette every day since i started playing again in november. No one tells people to skip. they just leave them behind. Its 2 different things. The people being left behind either skip as well or people wait, up to the player. The fact is the MSQ roulette is too small of a selection in dungeons that ONLY getting Prae or CM means EVERYTIME i queue for it now I HAVE to watch the cutscenes, instead of instructing players (who are willing) to watch it in the Inn

Just cancelled my sub over this. Inexcusably moronic. No justification for this whatsoever. If you wanted to watch the cutscenes, you could do that already, just let the other people clear it. This and 2.1-2.5 are huge bottlenecks in the game already. Making this old trash longer is the opposite of what they should be doing. Everyone saying this will be a nearly insurmountable obstacle in the MSQ now is completely right and it's not hyperbole. People will be sitting in queue for hours and then just log off out of frustration. Unbelievably stupid. Completely ridiculous.

Whatever. Have fun waiting hours I guess. Or have fun paying extra money as a newcomer to buy jump pots. Extra money on top of the game title/expansions and monthly subscription.
Definitely one of the silliest decisions in this game ever.
Even from pure greed standpoint this doesn't make any sense. Jump pots according to SE didn't sell very well. This will make the game more unfriendly and frustrating to newcomers and it can also be considered as a paywall.
A paywall on an already expensive game. This decision doesn't make sense in any way.

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Originally Posted by CaptainOhare

Just cancelled my sub over this. Inexcusably moronic. No justification for this whatsoever. If you wanted to watch the cutscenes, you could do that already, just let the other people clear it. This and 2.1-2.5 are huge bottlenecks in the game already. Making this old trash longer is the opposite of what they should be doing. Everyone saying this will be a nearly insurmountable obstacle in the MSQ now is completely right and it's not hyperbole. People will be sitting in queue for hours and then just log off out of frustration. Unbelievably stupid. Completely ridiculous.

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But...aren't you already past MSQ? Is this a protest?

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

But...aren't you already past MSQ? Is this a protest?

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I imagine because it sets a rather terrible precedent. If they go through with an action this hostile towards new players, it's not a good sign for the future.

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

Well again why not make it solo so no one gets held up or a ruined experience?

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^ I'm all for making the MSQ soloable. New players don't have to wait for a que that never going to pop or have people leave the moment they zone in and older players don't have to sit in one dungeon for 1-2hours waiting. I think also in another thread someone jokingly (or maybe was serious) said something about trolling a group by never leaving the CS. Which isn't going to vote well at all unless you can vote kick someone while their in CS. Just kind of wanted to bring that to light also. I never tried to vote kick someone while their in a CS so I don't know if it possible or not.

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Originally Posted by Zephera

I imagine because it sets a rather terrible precedent. If they go through with an action this hostile towards new players, it's not a good sign for the future.

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I...suppose lol. I can understand and I'm frustrated about this as well...

But at the end of the day, this doesn't exactly have a huge affect on me. Yet.

I'll gladly do it if I can get an entire level or cap my weekly tomes in one go if I queue up for this thing. Basically they'll need to make the reward so ridiculously huge that players will gladly take the time to do these hour long duties

Well they tried so round of applause for actually caring about the newer player base to say the least.

Better solutions could be developed like making it a solo instance and removing MSQ roulette from the game. But to assume the current state is good.... (Not everyone wants to watch the cutscenes in the inn room, and to further add those that do watch the cut-scenes should not essentially be forced to not experience the combat side of the dungeon.)

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Originally Posted by AppleJinx

I'll gladly do it if I can get an entire level or cap my weekly tomes in one go if I queue up for this thing. Basically they'll need to make the reward so ridiculously huge that players will gladly take the time to do these hour long duties

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That would be cool and I'd probably queue for it, but I don't see it happening.

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Originally Posted by AppleJinx

I'll gladly do it if I can get an entire level or cap my weekly tomes in one go if I queue up for this thing. Basically they'll need to make the reward so ridiculously huge that players will gladly take the time to do these hour long duties

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I already have all my combat jobs at 70 so more exp isn't too incentivizing. Capping on weekly tomes would likely draw me in but I don't see that happening. Best I'd hope for reward wise is a sizeable amount of Gil, but it would have to be big and I could see it maybe ruining some servers economies if they don't do it right.

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Originally Posted by Zephera

I imagine because it sets a rather terrible precedent. If they go through with an action this hostile towards new players, it's not a good sign for the future.

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its ironic, because its supposed to give new players what they want but what its really giving them is a big f*ck you.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Well they tried so round of applause for actually caring about the newer player base to say the least.

Better solutions could be developed like making it a solo instance and removing MSQ roulette from the game. But to assume the current state is good.... (Not everyone wants to watch the cutscenes in the inn room, and to further add those that do watch the cut-scenes should not essentially be forced to not experience the combat side of the dungeon.)

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this does nothing to help the new player base tho...

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Sure, now imagine all the PvPers upset with that change they never wanted or asked for, and have proven has done more harm than good go. Oh hey look, some people don't like the SMN changes, they can go too. Ah, and a lot of BLMs are pretty underwhelmed by their changes; there's other games with mage classes, so let them just go too. Hey, those new guys can't get queues for that MSQ duty with the unskippable cutscenes and can't progress! Well, too bad for them, if they don't like it, they can just go find something else to play.

^ Here you go, SE. Promising new candidate for your dev team.

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Well theres reason why i dont care for PVP anymore. :) Well i still play it time to time with friends but other than that i dont see bright future for that mod.

For answer your question: yes ppl should leave the game if they dont like it. This is the only option for fixing the issue. Ive seen this once and it worked but the damage was already made so no player was interested on coming back or only minority went back to the game. And its not 1.0 :)