I miss the old PvP.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

What's sad is that we totally had that before, but people claimed it was too hard to learn, had "too many buttons", and generally didn't try it besides

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You pretty much did a modified form of pve opener in it, in a much shorter timeframe, hoping to god the other team wasn't using callouts to stun you and waste the entire burst. I kind of wonder about you sometimes, because you can say it was better, but anyone who says HW pvp was easy is so mistaken it's not funny. I understand you are positive by nature, but Feast in HW was ridiculous for many jobs. I placed my first season and did a ton of 8v8 because I was sick of ranked after, and nothing about it was easy.

Some people are arguing about the strength of healers - I figured I'd talk about the choices in mind here.


Basicly, there are three core tenants to handle healer balancing in games. Keep in mind, these are gross generalizations for sake of simplification and quick conversation.

1. The healer is powerful enough to handle a team healing load unless the enemy co-ordinates. This is the system we have now.

2. The healer cannot sufficiently heal the party against are serve more as a 'support' role, given various methods of assisting the enemy fight. This is the system we see in most MOBAs.

3. Individual player health pools are much larger compared to the damage an invidual can deal, but the healer cannot easily outpace the tools given by a player if sufficiently used.


Now, there is a graduation between all of these, but I'm going to adjust the core points in their extremes to point out the balancing flaws.

As people have done complaints about number one, let's talk about the most popular first. Number 2 - a healer simply cannot keep up with the damage. While this is great for team tactical play seen in popular games in League of Legends, is boasts a slower, more methodical approach. For situations like the Feast where it is team 4 on 4. Fights will simply collapse quickly into one-sided victories upon the first death. This promotes passive play, waiting for players to make a single positional or skill error, and capitalizing on it. And to be honest, it's not all that fun for an MMO environment where most of the game outside PvP is based off of regular attacks. However in this system, a smaller number of skills becomes more efficient and easier to understand and get into.

Number three seems great on paper - Healer can't keep up if all the tools are properly utilized, but that takes a lot of skill. This is very similar to the one we had. The problem here every fight becomes a war of attrition, whittling an enemy down to outpace the healing - it takes forever to get a kill. This system is greater for objective based play where it's not the enemies you're aiming for, it's something else. However of late, and for good reason, this system has found itself in less and less practice.

What SE chose is a variation of number 1, with the skillset of number 2 - and it's coming with some growing pains. The thing is, it strikes a balance between stagnation and pacification - this is most assured by the gaming systems that are in place. The Culling in Feast insures that if healers get too skilled, they're gradually made weaker in comparison to the damage until a kill is made.

In Rival Wings, the balancing fact against healers is the Mechs. While holding the center with healers is possible, it does not monopolize the flow EP, as there are collection points and enemy minions that provide it as well. The more healers involved holding the center, the less people are out collecting or killing minions, and they'll lose flow that way. Outside the center, the healers are vulnerable to the machines themselves. A a tank and a mech is more than enough for a healer. And a Brute Justice with multiple stacks will kill a healer outright with flamethrower.

So no, healers are not OP. They're more powerful the lesser skilled the opponents are.

There are definite improvements to be had with the current system, and balancing is a pain. But the more people learn the system and how to best play it, the more balanced combat becomes.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You pretty much did a modified form of pve opener in it, in a much shorter timeframe, hoping to god the other team wasn't using callouts to stun you and waste the entire burst. I kind of wonder about you sometimes, because you can say it was better, but anyone who says HW pvp was easy is so mistaken it's not funny. I understand you are positive by nature, but Feast in HW was ridiculous for many jobs. I placed my first season and did a ton of 8v8 because I was sick of ranked after, and nothing about it was easy.

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Easy to learn. What you do with it or how far you can make it is the challenge, and some will naturally take to it quicker than others.

And speaking only for MCHs, our burst was definitely not a PvE opener. It was essentially 4 skills, all oGCDs, which irritates me that only one part of that survives in 4.x PvP, and has been nerfed significantly besides.

I miss annoying people by removing their buffs with one ilm punch aswell as the stuns from Shoulder Tackle and Steel Peak.

Or that one MRD cross class skills that upped defense or using fetter ward.

I miss old seal rock days. Would not say it was balanced, but was really fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko4xeBsLJQ8

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Originally Posted by Sunako

I miss old seal rock days. Would not say it was balanced, but was really fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko4xeBsLJQ8

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Seal Rock was my favorite. Yes, I miss the old PVP without EXP and with all of our skills. very, very much.

As much as I was SO happy to see square put in the effort to completely rework PVP, and I enjoy the new healing mechanics -- dps has suffered greatly. As someone who mained a dps in the past, the new system just makes me feel like I'm tickling the opponent instead of bursting.

I can only hope that they will continue to ADD to the current skills, until it gets to a similar version as our previous one but, perhaps, more balanced. (Although the previous one was definitely more balanced as any job was pretty much viable.)

I was watching one of my old pvp videos, aaand as petty as it sounds, my heart sinks at the thought of never being able to play it again lol. It was so much fun, I remember leveling war and many other jobs to 60 just so I could play it in PVP, getting very good at DRK, and more. I wore the PvP crown with pride because I knew what I was doing and gladly helped others get better. While I loved the PvE content as well, in a way you could say old pvp was my endgame I guess. It's like SE deleted 50% of the game for me.

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Originally Posted by SummerScorcher

I was watching one of my old pvp videos, aaand as petty as it sounds, my heart sinks at the thought of never being able to play it again lol. It was so much fun, I remember leveling war and many other jobs to 60 just so I could play it in PVP, getting very good at DRK, and more. I wore the PvP crown with pride because I knew what I was doing and gladly helped others get better. While I loved the PvE content as well, in a way you could say old pvp was my endgame I guess. It's like SE deleted 50% of the game for me.

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Oh I remember those times and PvP became my end game as well since I didn't do Ex runs or Savage.

Here's an idea SE: An option in the PvP profile and Duty Finder to swap to "legacy mode" where you get your whole PvE kit/hotbar + legacy PvP skills back. I see 0 reasons for this not to work, at the very least change to this for duels.

Queuing for Frontline/other pvp mode with this enabled would either
A) Put you in a seperate queue with other people who have this enabled (prefered for ranked)
Or B) Put you in the same queue as everyone else, but you deal lower damage to compensate for the amount of skills you are able to use. (with this debuff you would still be at an advantage if you play well, however.)

Yes or no guys? I vote yes. ;]

Not a bad idea, but unfortunately, all it would do is split queues. Those who prefer "legacy" PvP would only queue that, and the new schoolers who prefer 4.x PvP would only queue that.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Not a bad idea, but unfortunately, all it would do is split queues. Those who prefer "legacy" PvP would only queue that, and the new schoolers who prefer 4.x PvP would only queue that.

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And thats why I put option B as a thing, if you're skilled enough to use old-pvp-mode you can do that but it gives you a damage penalty that you can outplay, so it's "balanced" or in-line with people who are using 4.0 PVP-system-mode (rather band aidy, but it could work.) Harmony in players that like the new system and people who prefer the old I guess. Easy vs. Complicated, but potential to be better.

If there would be legacy mode, it would need own balance patches. Whole reason behind that new mode is so balancing pve and pvp is separated and not affect each others.

Overwatch has an arcade mode where they just throw different variations on the core gameplay. If SE was serious about 3.0 coming back, they could do this to test the waters, as well as play around a bit with frontlines or feast conditions. That way they could see how players react to it without committing to it, since a public test server can't exist.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Overwatch has an arcade mode where they just throw different variations on the core gameplay. If SE was serious about 3.0 coming back, they could do this to test the waters, as well as play around a bit with frontlines or feast conditions. That way they could see how players react to it without committing to it, since a public test server can't exist.

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They could always do a PvP event to. It would be like a flashback event. I wouldn't even care if they synch'd at ilvl150 like they did in HW.

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Originally Posted by SummerScorcher

I was watching one of my old pvp videos

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Same here. Was playing Ninja and sniping people lurking around in stealth... its so sad this is not possible anymore.

I think the new PvP system was made with The Feast in developers' minds, and it hurts Frontline badly.

Frontline supposed to be a large-scaled PvP where players need to use the tools (actions) in order to survive and kill the others. You need to choose carefully when to use your CD actions and how to build up your combos.

With the new PvP system, it's all gone. Now it's just newbies spamming 2-3 moves at each other and see who dies first. You don't need any experience, strategy, or anything.

I've been a main ninja in Frontline for thousands of matches during the old era, the new PvP system made my job almost unplayable and not entertaining at all. Ninja with almost zero tool to utilize. There's no point to play this job anymore. After I tried RDM in PvP I found it super easy to kill people. No wonder why a lot of newbies are now interested in PvP.

It's so sad that they had to sacrifice the entertainment of PvP in order to draw in more people. And it's not like all of them are there because it's entertaining. They give PvE EXP to us for god sake. That's the real reason people are doing it more than before.

If I can suggest one thing to the PvP dev team: I know you're not going to bring back the old system, but at least can I have a separated system for Frontline? Make it plays like PvE with the same skill set as PvE, make it similar to the old system for Frontline because the new PvP system killed the fun of Frontline.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Secretly, I'm really hoping SE is seeing this.

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For Se to notice this Thread it would need at least 500 likes. Otherwise i fear they wont bother.

I remember Yoshida, saying: " This thread had a lot of likes so we consired it." Thats how it works, sadly.

Well first, SE would have to actually pay attention to threads here in the PvP section. 500 likes? We can't even get 500 people to look in this section, and the larger body of the PvP community can't or won't post on the forums as is.

They're gonna need different criteria for that.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

We can't even get 500 people to look in this section.

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Thats why we are doomed.^^

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

We can't even get 500 people to look in this section...

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Looking at the views pr. thread, it's safe to assume that < 500 read them seriously. I was about to ask if was worth making a petition to bring pre 4.x back. We could even do it postal 2 style. But looking at the numbers it's not even worth suggesting it lol.

Edit: If anyone wonders what I mean by postal 2:google "petition postal 2"

Oh I don't mean to discourage. I'd fully support any petition for a revision, and I hope any long time PvPer who feels the same would.

I'd also fully support a petition. Just throwing it out there.

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Originally Posted by SummerScorcher

I'd also fully support a petition. Just throwing it out there.

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I dont think that would help... The current "Version" of "PvP" is more Easy to balance for the dev Team (Although i cant see the Balance tbh). So i think even IF there is thousands of people telling them the old PvP was better they prolly still dont change it back.

If it's so easy to balance, why is the balance so screwed up right now?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

If it's so easy to balance, why is the balance so screwed up right now?

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In order to make something balanced, you first need to know what balance even is, what consequences that has for the game you intend to balance, then want to achieve it still and have the ability to do so.

There's a good chance none of that is the case for the team in charge, just as for many forum posters.

They most likely simply look at some internal data sheets for the brunt of their work (I surmise especially popularity statistics), occasionally get a mail from the forum reps that pass feedback along after translation and then simply adjust things up and down more or less randomly depending on the general direction.

Nothing sends chills down my spine like hearing "internal data" when taking about SE. After all, their "internal data" showed participation went up when they restricted chat.

You know, cause granting a 3 year wish finally and starting an event that was based around PvP had nothing to do with it. . .

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

starting an event that was based around PvP

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A ton of Glamours and a few mounts did the trick. It was a good bait to lead more people to pvp but to claim that the new system is responsible for more players in pvp is just..... not nice. The new PvP mode is already about to die on my Datacenter. Queues have gone up to about 12- 30 mins.

Oh no, I was saying Frontline Freelancer - the GC restriction removal we begged for for 3 years - did the trick. But in the eyes of others who weren't PvPing then, banning Feast chat and the GARO event was the big savior of PvP

As for Rival Wings, it's fun, but it's not without its issues that need addressing. If they're not addressed soon, people will just quit playing it. I enjoy it, and I want to play it more, but the current issues that take away from the enjoyment make me hesitant to want to bother most days.

I don't think freelancer helped as much as you think. Being able to go in under cap, as well as the Garo event, helped a lot more. Problem with pvp is that for some reason, it's really hard to get 72 people to even want to do it at a particular time. Or even 24, 16, or 8.

This is an issue with other content, too. For the game's population per data center, things like the party finder are shockingly empty if you think about it.

You can't tell me giving the community a feature they begged for for 3 years, that allows people to play with their friends, and eases matchmaking doesn't hold more weight than a crossover event for new mounts and gear, which was explained ahead of time that the gear would also be available through gold saucer for those who didn't want to PvP? I'm speaking of 3.5, not 4.0; well before XP was offered for PvP, and yet queue times drastically improved.

I'll be the mean person to say it: A lot of the new PvP crowd aren't in it because they enjoy PvP. They want to farm the rewards or level alternate jobs, and generally don't have incentive otherwise to queue. That's fine, it's their time and money. But with an alienated "old" community that's lifelining, and a "new" fairweather community, SE's perhaps going to have to see PvP truly, finally fail in this game to perhaps take notice and either do it better, or realize they'd had it mostly right at first. . .

..yeah, the gear was very well done. as were the mounts. You have incentives to get 100 people in the mode in the hopes 30 will like it enough to stay. The garo achievement made you do 60 matches to get all the mounts, and maybe longer for all jobs at 60 to get the titles. Thats a decent time to tour all the modes.

In most MMOs, PvP simply isn't a big draw. FFXIV pvp actually does well at giving incentives and keeping barriers to participation out. But you have to keep attracting people to make for a healthy scene.

And yet change after change they seem to keep alienating and pushing out the community that was/would be dedicated to PvP, in favor of a fairweather community that's only in it for whatever reward they can farm out, yet can't handle even the simplest of game rules and needs terrible adjustments made that STILL won't help them do any better.

I see why the others left, and why so many are so reticent to bother queueing for anything now. It's always been rough being a PvPer in this game, but Stormblood is quickly becoming one especially terrible time for PvP in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

And yet change after change they seem to keep alienating and pushing out the community that was/would be dedicated to PvP, in favor of a fairweather community that's only in it for whatever reward they can farm out, yet can't handle even the simplest of game rules and needs terrible adjustments made that STILL won't help them do any better.

I see why the others left, and why so many are so reticent to bother queueing for anything now. It's always been rough being a PvPer in this game, but Stormblood is quickly becoming one especially terrible time for PvP in FFXIV.

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PvP was my endgame. I lvld Jobs to 60 just to be able to try them in PvP. Now i can bearly push myself to play a Rated Feast game once Week. I just doesnt feel rewarding to win anymore.

Same here. I enjoyed it enough to dedicate myself and my videos to XIV's PvP despite all the naysayers and bad talk about it. I truly do love it, but I hate to see what it has become, especially knowing what it was before anyone wanted to give it a chance.

I legit feel like I have nothing to do right now in game. I have the mount from Rival Wings, and those changes are just awful. I see no reason to force myself to queue for it knowing I won't enjoy it. And I'm as geared out as I want to be from Savage, so no burning desire to do that. Ultimate Coil might be nice, but it's got that O4S gateway that I haven't gotten through, and generally won't task myself with without my static. If I can't help revive Seal Rock, I pretty much am on "vacation" til 4.2, if not longer.

I don't think idealizing the HW past is the answer.

I think the problem is SE needs to STOP FORCING US TO SLOWLY BETA TEST THINGS. They keep dumping half-worked content on us and expecting us to give them data to adjust things, but because they do it when the content is live it screws us all up. Something like healer stacking is so basic that just an afternoon of players doing the content would point it out. But because they dump it on us on the live server, we have to put up with it for weeks until they tenatively adjust it, and since they don't have us test THAT Content either, we get the updates that make things worse.

This just doesn't work. They should honesttly open up a pvp test server, have people test out the new modes a month before release, and go from there.

PvP participation seems to be decreasing and I sort of hopes it will keep doing that.Everything has been simplified to mindnumbing levels and yet so many people are still unable to perform half decently. It would be so exciting to have access to the PvE skills we have now for PvP. When I compare how thrilled I used to be playing Seal Rock and the previous modes and how much any FL (and RW) completely turns me off now it really gets depressing. AOE brawls used to be amazing, now you pray your alliance can see the marker on enemies heads and manage to press their 9 buttons efficiently enough to take 1 person down. In the past if you were good and dedicated enough you had a much bigger impact in both Feast and FL, as a dps now it's "be a great healer or struggle for a while" to climb the rankings ladder.

PvP participation is decreasing because A. Skills are backwards. They function different in PvE than they do in PvP. B. Everyone is getting capped on their jobs and Exp is irrelevant.

I pvp'ed endgame all 3.5. because I was gone for 3.4 and wasn't there when frontline freelancer was introduced. I know several people who picked up PvP once freelancer was introduced. All of those people miss 3.x. Riyah is one of the only people that vocalizes they don't miss it.

I think it's because I remember the 3.0 toolkit. Trying to use enochian reliably was ridiculous, for example. 12 sec, something like 60 sec cooldown, and all it needed was one person moving out of range to spoil the refresh. You had all of the pve filler abilities like heavy thrust, and a lot of the kit simply didn't work; dots and aoe attacks were pointless due to aoe healing. Pretty much what people like I think was the fact that you could reliably chain crowd control moves to take out a single target, but that could be incredibly annoying to play against. And you also had all the skill issues you did in 3.0 pve, too.

People like 3.0 because its when pvp was fun for them, partly because of being new. But it had its own issues too.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I think it's because I remember the 3.0 toolkit. Trying to use enochian reliably was ridiculous, for example. 12 sec, something like 60 sec cooldown, and all it needed was one person moving out of range to spoil the refresh. You had all of the pve filler abilities like heavy thrust, and a lot of the kit simply didn't work; dots and aoe attacks were pointless due to aoe healing. Pretty much what people like I think was the fact that you could reliably chain crowd control moves to take out a single target, but that could be incredibly annoying to play against. And you also had all the skill issues you did in 3.0 pve, too.

People like 3.0 because its when pvp was fun for them, partly because of being new. But it had its own issues too.

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With 4.0 they already solved a lot of these problems by reducing the CD on BoD and Enochian. You simplified your toolkit for the mode. Just because you have a button doesn't mean you have to use it. One Ilm Punch was amazing in PvP but is almost useless in PvE. Hyoton is useless in PvE but usefull in PvP. Fluid Aura is a bane in PvE for melee but incredibly usefull in PvP. Why would you Heavy Thrust a target? You would only Blood of Dragon if you were attempting to burst a target for the extra jump damage. Enochian you would only use if you were able to setup and turret. DoT's were effective and especially when stacked and purify was down. Ninja you would primarily aeolian edge as it yielded more burst damage than applying your dots. So it really boiled down to knowing how to play the class than a problem with button bloat/usefulness. AoE abilities are pointless in PvP and that is not due to AoE healing it is due to PvP being about burst. CC abilties were there for a reason. They also had diminishing returns on them which if your team wasn't focused you would stun/sleep/etc to a point of resistance and then healers, etc would just laugh. A focused team however knew what to do and you were toast. You could say that coordinated versus uncoordinated which people still suffer from today and is the reason why "Healers are too powerful".

PvP in 3.0 wasn't new. PvP has been around since ARR. What changed in 3.0 was Freelancer which really enabled more people to get in.