Selling Runs and Clears

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Okay but who does that really harm? It's an annoyance at worst to unrelated and uninterested people.

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You could say its the same as seeing RMT spam every time you port in a main city, SE doesn't tolerate that nor should it be tolerated, I don't want to see sale listings everytime I open PF to see who needs help.

Unless you go check these out on discord you don't know if it's RMT or not. As of last december cross server parties can be made. If anyone is foolish enough to give out their sign in information for getting a dungeon done, they kind of deserve whatever happens to their account.

Also, selling clears is not against tos at all. Think about it, the whole game revolves around adventurers making gil from doing quests.

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Originally Posted by Zarabeth

Unless you go check these out on discord you don't know if it's RMT or not. As of last december cross server parties can be made. If anyone is foolish enough to give out their sign in information for getting a dungeon done, they kind of deserve whatever happens to their account.

Also, selling clears is not against tos at all. Think about it, the whole game revolves around adventurers making gil from doing quests.

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If they are asking for account info like an earlier post said they know people who do it is very much a TOS violation. Also I see PF listings from different servers selling clears, how are they making gil when you can't even trade gil to people in a different server? Its RMT.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Okay but who does that really harm? It's an annoyance at worst to unrelated and uninterested people.

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Shouting RMT adverts in Limsa Lominsa doesn't harm anyone either and it's annoying at worst. Yet they are banned for the simple reason that such behavior is against the rules. People buy this game with the expectation that other players around them will not be allowed to behave in forbidden ways. If those rules aren't enforced then why have them at all?

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

You could say its the same as seeing RMT spam every time you port in a main city, SE doesn't tolerate that nor should it be tolerated, I don't want to see sale listings everytime I open PF to see who needs help.

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RMT affects the economy in a negative way, causing harm. Cluttering PF a bit harms nothing. I'm sorry you don't want to see sale listings; I don't much like seeing advertisements, but I've gotten good at ignoring them.

inb4 "But people RMT to buy the clears", they RMT for houses and gear too. Should SE ban themselves for putting houses up, or crafters for selling gear?

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Shouting RMT adverts in Limsa Lominsa doesn't harm anyone either and it's annoying at worst. Yet they are banned for the simple reason that such behavior is against the rules. People buy this game with the expectation that other players around them will not be allowed to behave in forbidden ways. If those rules aren't enforced then why have them at all?

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Are RMT banned for shouting in Limsa, or for real money trading? Are they banned for being annoying in shout chat, or for actively harming server economy?

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Not sure what you are trying to get at with that last point, people have gone to GM jail for trying to sell housing over PF.

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My point is, I care very little about "cluttering" the party finder. But go ahead and start reporting people en masse; you might get some raiders banned, or at least sent to GM jail, and clean up that PF of yours a bit.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Also, if someone is using cross server PF to advertise clears to people on different servers, how do you think they are getting paid since you can't trade gil across servers?

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I have no clue. It's also none of my business. So go ahead and get to reporting.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

RMT affects the economy in a negative way, causing harm. Cluttering PF a bit harms nothing. I'm sorry you don't want to see sale listings; I don't much like seeing advertisements, but I've gotten good at ignoring them.

inb4 "But people RMT to buy the clears", they RMT for houses and gear too. Should SE ban themselves for putting houses up, or crafters for selling gear?

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Not sure what you are trying to get at with that last point, people have gone to GM jail for trying to sell housing over PF.

Also, if someone is using cross server PF to advertise clears to people on different servers, how do you think they are getting paid since you can't trade gil across servers?

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

If they are asking for account info like an earlier post said they know people who do it is very much a TOS violation. Also I see PF listings from different servers selling clears, how are they making gil when you can't even trade gil to people in a different server? Its RMT.

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If you see them asking for account info then report them. That was kinda my point about checking them out on discord. But those who are selling runs for gil are not violating TOS.

Selling run against gil are not against ToS.
I didnt see any part of ToS that says you cant have an afk in the run.
Nothing else to give freely gils to another people with no reason.
and nothing to trade an help against gil...

RMT are against tos because it is forbidden to trade in game things against real things. (so real money vs in game money. real money vs in game service ... )

There is ethical matter with runselling, but not legal matter...

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Are RMT banned for shouting in Limsa, or for real money trading? Are they banned for being annoying in shout chat, or for actively harming server economy?

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They are banned for breaking the rules (real money trading). Just like the people selling clears cross-server (RMT) or buying clears by account sharing should be. Getting carried for free or for gil is not forbidden or harmful so there's no problem with that.

So what's worse?

The person who buys a run to get a slight gear upgrade to show off.

Or the one who cares about the one who bought it being better than them?

I put both in the same boat personally.

Don't really see a reason to scream ban for account sharing, it already happens extremely often outside of sales with raiders finding pilots for their accounts to help fill in when they can't make it. There's no harm in it, just mutual benefit.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

They are banned for breaking the rules (real money trading). Just like the people selling clears cross-server (RMT) or buying clears by account sharing should be. Getting carried for free or for gil is not forbidden or harmful so there's no problem with that.

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Exactly this, if they are giving account info its a TOS violation, and if they are buying or selling clears from cross server groups with real money then its literally RMT and needs to be dealt with as such.

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Originally Posted by BristolRuss

XD

Clearly you have no idea how run selling works. You don't give the sellers any kind of log in information at all. Most groups just take you and ask to to die asap, and then just clear the fight with the 7 other people. I'd love to hear your reasoning for how run selling is tantamount to RMT as well.

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Clearly you didn't read my post...please bother to do so before you respond.
You don't need to sell runs...you volunteer your time and you get paid in bonus tomes for your trouble...its that simple. People who take it further than that are abusing the system.
Its too easy to get a PF together unsynch it and just get it done. I also find it incredibly suspicious to ask for out of game communication contact and not just rework the party finder to work what you need.

It may not be RMT...but it smells like it.

its a thing that happens in most mmos though this one has very little reason to do it

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

RMT = Real Money Trading
In game run sellers = In game gil only.

No difference huh?

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I'm curious as to why people would advertise selling runs over the entire PF then. How are they supposed to trade gil? They're clearly advertising clears for real money; there's no other way to pay them!

can we at least agree that Squeenix ought to be able to punish them for listing a party as Expert Roulette just to maintain visibility? it's blatant false listing.

The only issue I really have with this is when these people that bought their clear to be carried and don't learn anything about the content then join people's farming parties on that content because they "cleared" it and cant hold up their end of the battle.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Clearly you didn't read my post...please bother to do so before you respond.
You don't need to sell runs...you volunteer your time and you get paid in bonus tomes for your trouble...its that simple. People who take it further than that areabusing the system.
Its too easy to get a PF together unsynch it and just get it done. I also find it incredibly suspicious to ask for out of game communication contact and not just rework the party finder to work what you need.

It may not be RMT...but it smells like it.

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You are out of line, and the person you are quoting had a fitting reply. I do not know why you have such a bias personal grievance on this issue.

First off, queue selling should be completely fair no matter the spin you put on it. You are basically buying an express ticket for waiting in line, hell RL themeparks even do it.

For high end stuff, again it depends. It does have a negative effect if the following happens:

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

The only issue I really have with this is when these people that bought their clear to be carried and don't learn anything about the content then join people's farming parties on that content because they "cleared" it and cant hold up their end of the battle.

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That is the ONLY, ONLY problem it causes. If someone is buying say a mount, minion, achievement, whatever the reason may be, it is not rmt, there is nothing wrong with it, all you are doing is paying for someone's time.

Lastly ... run clearing services for bonus tomes? you clearly do not know how things work. No one would do such things for that, the bonus is a joke. The ONLY time that is a factor in anything is WT farming, outside that, no one cares, and current high end content is not in the WT book. We are not talking about the same thing when you bring up clearing for bonus tomes.

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Originally Posted by spagthetapdancer

can we at least agree that Squeenix ought to be able to punish them for listing a party as Expert Roulette just to maintain visibility? it's blatant false listing.

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Is false listing against any rules?

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

The only issue I really have with this is when these people that bought their clear to be carried and don't learn anything about the content then join people's farming parties on that content because they "cleared" it and cant hold up their end of the battle.

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The issue is easily solved with kick/blacklist. You will never, ever see him again in your parties.

The passion with which some people defend these "content clears"...
Are there that many people that can't complete content on their own? Or are the high tier raiders afraid of losing their source of gil?


Funny, either way!

And you are kidding yourselves if you don't think it encourages RMT. I wonder, do these raiding groups ever scrutinize who is paying them? Ever investigate the player hiring you to see if they have any gatherers or crafters leveled up? Because they certainly aren't making their gil pushing raids out if they require your help...
Plus, explain how the cross-region content-skippers are getting "payed in gil". I'd love to know, in detail, how such an arrangement would work out.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Is false listing against any rules?

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I'm not certain but I firmly believe that it ought to be. would there be an issue if it were added to the list of rules?

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

The passion with which some people defend these "content clears"...
Are there that many people that can't complete content on their own? Or are the high tier raiders afraid of losing their source of gil?

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Many players I've sold to can clearly do the content on their own, just sad the people they join are bad. Of course they can complete it on their own, it just depends on the group/players they are with. We all know how it works in FF14. I don't blame them, it's nearly impossible to farm too because how bad people are.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Many players I've sold to can clearly do the content on their own, just sad the people they join are bad. Of course they can complete it on their own, it just depends on the group/players they are with. We all know how it works in FF14. I don't blame them, it's nearly impossible to farm too because how bad people are.

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But then, if they can do content on their own and you aren't carrying them... Why are you charging a dime? For the privilege of playing with you and your friends? That somehow sounds even worse!
Though if you are carrying them, how can you assess that they can "clearly do the content on their own"? Because I could just as easily yell "every time I fail a raid, it's actually someone else's fault".

In the end, people can do whatever they want, so long as it follows the rules. And this is a situation where RMT becomes an attractive proposition for people that don't have neither the time nor patience to see content through on their own. And if they lack both of these for raiding, I don't see how they would manage to level a crafter or gatherer all the way to 70, let alone gearing them up and then making stuff worth selling.


I'm sure there are exceptions. Don't tell me most people that pay you to do content for them are good players, because if they were you'd be out of business.

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

I'm sure there are exceptions. Don't tell me most people that pay you to do content for them are good players, because if they were you'd be out of business.

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You don't get it..... You can be 1 player but you need 7 other competent players too. How often do you meet them? Not often. Just because I can clear content, which I have 99% of them, doesn't mean I could do it without a competent group. Try do shinryu extreme with 7 other people who are headless chickens, good luck to you then. I often question myself if people keep forgetting this is an MMO and teamwork is something that people need to put effort in or is that something people ignore? I will say it again, just because you can do content doesn't mean shit when 7 players can't. Hell even 2-3 in a group will be enough not to beat the fight.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Blubb

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I think that was a general RMT Question for you, as a Content Seller, I mean with that Surename... *coughs and disappears*

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

The issue is easily solved with kick/blacklist. You will never, ever see him again in your parties.

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I'll use blacklist when they finally add that "Delete All" button to instantly clear out all the RMT spammers I filled it with back when they were doing that annoyance of spamming people with /tells... >.>